Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Player-1]

I'm not sure, her side-b is pretty laggy, and if that's the case you can mix it up with a grab or nair pressure or something

 

[elegyempty]

Plant a tree to catch the side-b (i don't remember if it stops the neutral b but that's easy enough to catch.) Pocket past the tree and start mixing up returned projectiles with Lloids. (Lloids have more HP when you ride them so either ride it into his shield, ride it past and hop off at the ledge, or hop off right after you get on)

Also, try SHFFing slingshot pellets to disrupt him.

 

[Hong]

I have never had problems using Pocket to make people afraid to reflect stuff at me. You've got to train them.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Man the reason the Palutena MU is so hellish though is because of just how ridiculously good her reflector is. It covers an incredible area, and if they SH it they can completely lock you out by making dash attack unsafe, increasing the area where Lloid is useless, and using the windbox to make jumping over it and approaching with Nair or Dair nearly unfeasible. That's mainly the reason I have trouble against Palutena, because of how her reflector basically shuts down all of our options. I don't have too much trouble with autoreticle, since I'll jump to bait it away from me the. FF to get an opening for an approach. Spacing your tree and Lloid to absorb autoreticle is also good, though Lloid is riskier since you have to commit to the possibility (certainty) of it being reflected at you, whereas with the tree you can leave it unchopped and use it solely as an AR barrier. I don't ever bother trying to pocket AR since you have to be spaced so that it won't actually hit you in order to be able to pocket a shot. Then there's the fact that when you unpocket it its trajectory is basically a vector. Like, if with vector PT, P is the origin of the AR shots and Palutena's position, and T is the location of the target, then the vector is the same since the target location is anchored to the origin. So if say Palutena used AR in the air while you were above her and you pocketed a shot, using it on the ground would make it shoot towards an invisible target in the sky in the same relative position. Tldr AR shots are really useless as pocketed projectiles because of how you have to be positioned for them to hit or be a threat.

Speaking of the tree, I feel the Super Timber variation is probably the best one for this MU. Timber Counter is slightly larger than standard, but it only has 15% HP, so it won't be sticking around too long. Super Timber though is slightly larger than Timber Counter and has about 50% HP, meaning it'll be able to take 17 AR shots, and that's with them all fresh (well, more realistically, it'll protect you from 5 total uses of AR, but on the sixth use, it'll only be able to take two of the shots while letting the last one go through).

I don't know what tournament rules will be like regarding Palutena's custom moves (since she has them all unlocked from the start) or custom moves in general (will people be able to swap between sets in between matches?), but either way Super Timber only alleviates one problem in the MU. Overall I feel it's somewhat heavily in Palutena's favour but I haven't played any as good as AeroLink so I'm gonna hold off on givin a ratio for now

 

[mmik]

I had to unlock palutena's moves...

 

[Kofu]

One of my friends once said something to the effect that Reflect Barrier is a better character than all the other characters in bottom tier. It's not that useful against opponents with no projectiles, but against someone like Villager who has at least six attacks that use "projectiles" it's an evil tool. (Said attacks are Lloid Rocket, Timber, FAir, BAir, DA, and FSmash) I played a decent Palutena on For Glory yesterday and felt really restricted against her. If our grab was faster this MU wouldn't be quite so bad but since it's not it feels nearly impossible.

I've also found that Villager struggles against characters that can rush in and disrupt his zoning, especially if their close combat range is appreciably greater that Villager's. Captain Falcon is the main one I have in mind, but there are probably others.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I'm not sure if this has been talked about yhet or not, but this is what I found out:

Villager's pocketed projectiles last 30 seconds pocketed. 31 seconds and you just lose it, 30 seconds and you're fine. The cool thing is that grabable items such as Pacman's, can be repocketed. You can have it for 29 seconds on your pocket, pull it out with Special, and pocket it right bback pressing it again, giving you another 30 seconds. You can do this an infinite amount of times. The reason I think this is important is that Diddy's peels and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopas can be held for an infinite amount of time (or until you get knocked out), and in the meantime, since technically is still on the game, the can't spawn a new one, which is in my opinion a huge deal. Besides Vilager I'm trying to main BJR and I know his Mechakoopa is essential for ground control and I bet the case the same for Diddy. Just wanted to point this out since it will probably affect his match ups against those characters a lot, making them play differently than they normally would.

This is so incredibly useful. I once applied this in a match against a good ROB that was very effective with the gyro. Once I pocketed that thing, though, I immediately caught on to how much that got into his head and ruined his game plan. I held onto the gyro for as long as I could, but on the next stock, he was very smart on not allowing me to get it back.

 

[Makai Wars]

For the Palu MU, I'd say our best shot is trying to lure out a Reflect then follow up by jumping over and using a nair/dair or setting up a tree and going for the axe swipe.
I can't say I have too much experience with this MU since I don't actually know any Palu mains, but my friend is a very competent RosaLuma and I have to say that MU is a huge issue for us.

 

[Darklink401]

Rosalina and Luma aren't much of a problem for me, as I play aggressive Villager, so I jump and use dair or nair to land behind them, and in the split second they try to turn around and attack or grab, I've already jumped and naired, then I chase them down, not giving them time to gather themselves. Slingshot is pretty worthless though, as Luma takes all the hits, so that's a bummer, but separating them isn't so hard.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Rosalina doesn't usually throw out Luma when there's a chance that the opponent will do that though. She'll wait and find a good opportunity to shoot Luma away. Plus the point of separating Luma from Rosalina is so that they won't try to gather themselves... Anyway, if you DO manage to catch them in a bad shot and get a Nair in, that's pretty good, though finding a good distance is sort of tricky. On one hand Rosalina's tilts have incredibly range and priority. On the other her jab isn't anything to laugh at, even without Luma assisting. I myself aren't too sure of how to play this MU aside from stopping and Luma Shots I can with Lloid. I guess Rosalina has blind spots in her diagonals but her USmash sort of covers that and its scary strong.

 

[Darklink401]

You just gotta split them like a knife

nair does that so well.

She IS a troublesome MU in general tho.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

UTilt outpriotises NAir though, and if they're not split up Luma's hit is really gonna knock you high which is hardly a good place for Villager.

 

[Darklink401]

See, that's why you gotta jump in there, and dair with turnip, to stun her for a sec, then bounce up with a nair, and follow up attacking Rosalina.~

 

[Indigo Jeans]

DAir doesn't combo into Nair unless you spike a grounded opponent with the 3-turnips and they bounce upwards though. And UTilt also beat 1- and 2-turnip Dair I think

I don't want to sound like a negative nancy but just rushin in and trying to split them up with NAir isn't the best of ideas

 

[Darklink401]

It works for me every time. Not saying you gonna rush them with nair XD

But briefly stunning them on the ground, and hopping up as soon as you land with a nair, will get them~

Oh and if aimed right, slingshot has a sweetspot in Rosalina's face.

 

[Venks]

Hey guys! I have some experience in Villager's match ups. I don't play much Villager myself, but the current champion of Victoria, Australia does. Though most of my experience comes from custom Villager since custom moves are legal here. The most popular set for Villager is:

Garden (Flower Pocket)
Pushy Lloid
Extreme Balloon Trip
Timber Counter

With this set I'd say Rosalina actually has a lot of trouble against Villager. The Trip Sapling stops all dash grab/attack approaches and makes it easy to call out Lloids without being punished. The Pushy Lloid deals multiple hits and is very difficult to destroy. Even if Rosalina uses Gravitational Pull you can just jump in and nAir Rosalina. And if Rosalina blocks the Pushy Lloid you can get a free grab. Just spamming Pushy Lloid is a great way to kill Luma. Oh and just like the normal Lloid you prevent jump overs with fAir/bAir, but it's even easier because of how big the Pushy Lloid is.

The Best Brawl player in our region was playing Rosalina and he lost to Villager really hard.

As for Little Mac, that would be my main. I think normal Villager has a loooot of trouble in this match up. Retreating SH fAirs are good, but eventually you run out of space to run. The normal gyroid isn't really an option because of how fast Little Mac is. The Lloid Rocket doesn't have a hit box when it is first summoned so Little Mac can run through it and dash attack Villager. The Lloid completely misses and is next to useless.
Also, as someone else already pointed out, Villager's grab is probably the worst in the game. Little Mac can use a crazy number of attacks and be completely safe on block. If Villager tries to shield grab he'll just get hit by a jab instead.

However, custom Villager has a really easy time against Little Mac. The Trip Sapling from Counter Tree means Little Mac can not dash to get in. The Pushy Lloid is now a huge problem and Little Mac actually needs to jump to get in. Little Mac's jumps are trash so he has a really hard time getting in. Even if Little Mac makes his way over the Trip Sapling you can just dodge roll to the other side and start the nightmare all over again. Oh and btw Trip Sapling lasts for 16 seconds. Imagine Diddy Kong with a banana peel that lasted that long and couldn't be picked up. It's a nightmare.

 

[Darklink401]

Huh....sounds interesting. I myself havent tried VIllager's other moves, but that does sound effective.

And yeah, everyone thinks Villager can easily go up against Little Mac...but that's not true at all! XD Villager has a huge problem against good LM players.


Oh and Villager's grab is....technically the worst. However his back throw can KO at pretty low percents, like 100-120.

For Villager, who lacks kill options, that's actually really useful XD

 

[Kohak]

Hey guys, any tips vs Greninja? I actually found a good one online who wasn't predictable and spammy. A lot of Greninjas smashes have crazy range and priority, and he's really good at applying pressure.
I particularly had problems while recovering. The Greninja would use their up b and the water jets would shoot me waaaaaay up off screen, leaving me helpless with my balloons.

 

[Darklink401]

In the Villager Videos thread you can see this dude owning a Greninja with aggressive Villager. its beautiful.

 

[Makai Wars]

Oh and btw Trip Sapling lasts for 16 seconds. Imagine Diddy Kong with a banana peel that lasted that long and couldn't be picked up. It's a nightmare.

Thanks for this informative post!
I'm a huge fan of the standard tree, but I can see the uses of Timber Counter.

Netting kills with stock timber is great since its fast as well as strong- is Timber Counter worth the trade off in kill power for stage control?

Basically Normal Timber v Timber Counter

 

[crashbfan]

I wish villager could pocket luma.

 

[mmik]

I wish villager could pocket luma.

I was surprised to see you could cape him as Mario, though. I'm guessing other reflectors work as well. Really handy. Would be great for villager to have a similar option.

 

[Venks]

Thanks for this informative post!
I'm a huge fan of the standard tree, but I can see the uses of Timber Counter.

Netting kills with stock timber is great since its fast as well as strong- is Timber Counter worth the trade off in kill power for stage control?

Basically Normal Timber v Timber Counter

The standard tree is great for getting KOs with the right set up. The Trip Sapling on the other hand forces opponents to approach from the air. It's level of control is incredibly strong especially against characters like Little Mac or Captain Falcon. I think it's a custom that should see strong use in most match ups especially when paired with the Pushy Lloid. The Pushy Lloid has much more health than the standard Lloid and thus forces even characters with good projectiles to approach.

I find the only match ups the trip sapling isn't particularly useful for is against aerial dominant characters like Jigglypuff or characters with reflectors like Fox.

 

[Kipcom]

Wtf are you supposed to do about campy Rosalina players as Villager? lol

Can't use projectiles (she just absorbs them).
She never has to approach. If she wants to get you from afar, she sends out Luma.
Even if you avoid Luma and get to her, she can just herpderp roll or call Luma back and retaliate with her greater priority.

You get nothing out of camping and you lose from being aggressive against her. x_x

 

[Darklink401]

Wtf are you supposed to do about campy Rosalina players as Villager? lol

Can't use projectiles (she just absorbs them).
She never has to approach. If she wants to get you from afar, she sends out Luma.
Even if you avoid Luma and get to her, she can just herpderp roll or call Luma back and retaliate with her greater priority.

You get nothing out of camping and you lose from being aggressive against her. x_x

Being aggressive is the way to go. I just hop back and forth with dairs and nairs.

 

[Blue Mage]

How are you guys feelin the Kirby matchup? I fought this amazing Kirby player in FG earlier, and I got my ass handed to me pretty hard.

Kirby feels so fast in this game, and his combos are incredible. Off of a forward throw at low percents, he can follow up with a FF Fair, and from here he can either Dtilt (which 99% of the time caused me to trip, and was followed up by an Fsmash), or regrab. Off the stage you're probably not coming back thanks to his great edgeguard game, or he'll just jump out and pop your balloons. Kirby can easily weave around any projectile in the air, as well at the Tree's growth and fall. Hitting this guy is insanely aggravating.

I was also completely terrified whenever I got Inhaled and copied. Makes Lloid pressure/retreating fairs/bairs on Kirby much more difficult, and getting killed by having your own tree thrown at you is just... >.>

Any advice on this matchup?

 

[Player-1]

I haven't played any kirbies yet with Villager, but I think in theory Kirby would do rather well in the MU for reasons you stated. I think you're just going to have to force him to approach from above with Lloid and slingshots and then try to juggle with well spaced uairs and nair. Uair 3 and 2 I think work fine, getting 1 sorta sucks, but if you hit you can combo pretty well out of it. It's just challenging kirby's bair with a uair 1 seems pretty bad. Spacing outside his range with dtilt and ftilts is also probably pretty good.

I think I probably just described a basic idea of how Villager plays a lot of MUs lol, but I think this applies to kirby even more so.

Like I said I haven't played any Kirbys myself, but that's just what I sort of theorized

 

[Darklink401]

Can Villager absorb Kirby's b-up afterslash?

 

[Player-1]

I believe so

 

[Blue Mage]

Thanks for the advice P-1.

As for Kirby's Up B, yeah you can pocket it, but it doesn't go very far (maybe about a character's length).

Another thing I want to mention about Kirby is that, once he gets his aerial game going on you, it feels INCREDIBLY hard to stop. His aerials have little landing lag, so trying to punish OOS will most likely get you jabbed, grabbed, or whatever Kirby feels like doing. Maybe an OOS Usmash or Axe could work? I never tried it, but trying to shield grab or nair will get you punished in my experience.

I can't really say we're severely disadvantaged in this matchup, considering I only played 1 amazing Kirby with my somewhat subpar Villager, but I feel like if he catches us in our shield, then we're pretty screwed.

 

[Player-1]

I've generally been approaching any aerial approaching based character with shield and then OoS nair and forcing them to approach from above and getting the uair/nairs out, but ya kirby's bair range is good that when spaced I think it could give us trouble. Usmash OoS, while faster than grab, is still slow compared to most OoS options and has little range, I don't think it's anything you're going to hit on most spaced moves, it's mostly a punish for sloppy spacing by your opponent against a move with a lot of cool down. The MU will probably be easier once the Wii U version drops out so we can start using retreating fairs/bairs OoS (well retreating fairs/bairs in general) with the c stick. A spaced bair on shield by Kirby is probably super safe (like I have said I don't have much Kirby experience, but from what I've seen/played it still seems to be like it was in brawl). So if he lands it then it's probably best to just reset the situation and jump back while getting projectiles out. That's if it the spaced bair has already landed on your shield. If you think he will bair, then you can dash in and shield to mess with kirby's spacing then punish the unspaced bair with OoS nair or something.

Edit: And ya, if you think you can space your axe well enough to hit his feet, then that's probably a good option if you have axe available to you at the time. You just have to make sure you're spacing the axe so you don't get hit by those feet or if you miss that you can retreat back enough to not get punished.

 

[Blue Mage]

I haven't played many Pac-Mans so far, but I want to talk about something, his Neutral B.

As you may know, some of Pac-Man's fruit can pierce straight through Lloid and the Tree, and hit us behind it (the Galaxian ship for sure, and I think the key does it too). All of the fruits destroy Lloid on impact, making projectile camping against him somewhat of a stalemate.

The thing about Pac-Man's Neutral B is that when a fruit is on the field, or in someone's hand, Pac-Man cannot throw any fruit until the current one disappears. Now, any character can grab the fruit and lock Pac-Man out of his Neutral B, but as Villager, I feel like we can control this much better thanks to Pocket. Pac-Man's fruits are one of the few items that transfer to Villager's hand instead of being automatically thrown like other projectiles. Unlike other characters, we don't have to throw the fruit to have access to our A moves. We can simply Pocket the fruit we need to, and pull it out again.

The few Pac-Mans I've played online love to throw fruit all over the place, so I think we should abuse and control the fact that we can lock him out of his own move at will. With fruit in our hand, we can pester Pac-Man from afar with Lloids to force him to block or approach, we can plant and water our Tree, and probably most importantly, we have our Axe.

Although locking Pac-Man out of his Neutral B is harder to do VS other character we can do this to (Pac-Man can charge fruit if yours is currently Pocketed), I think that intelligent use of Pocketing and holding the fruit will give us an edge in this fight. It gives us one less thing to worry about over the course of the match, and of course if we catch something awesome like the key, we could definitely use that to our advantage.

Any thoughts on this? I hope I'm not too terrible overrating this move I spent forever theoryfighting this matchup today for some reason.

 

[mmik]

Are you sure pac man gets locked out? I know a few others do, but I feel like pac man doesn't. I can't test this right now. If he does then it definitely hurts his game. If you do manage to grab his fruit, and he can't throw new ones, try using some z drop combos to keep it in your possession longer.

 

[Blue Mage]

Are you sure pac man gets locked out? I know a few others do, but I feel like pac man doesn't. I can't test this right now. If he does then it definitely hurts his game. If you do manage to grab his fruit, and he can't throw new ones, try using some z drop combos to keep it in your possession longer.

Yeah, when you get the chance go in training mode and get the CPU Pac-Man to throw fruit at you, then catch it and hold it in your hand for a while, he'll desperately try to spawn another one, only to fail.

But as I said in my post, he'll only get locked out if it's in your hand or on the field. If it's in your Pocket, then he's free to throw another one.

 

[Darklink401]

You just gotta pocket refresh by pulling it out and putting it back every 10-15 seconds. It can go for up to 30 seconds, but I wouldn't risk it.

IIRC, pocket refreshing is a legit thing.

 

[mmik]

Pocket refreshing is. It makes diddy and bowser Jr sad.

 

[Darklink401]

I mean, it's basically disabling one of their options. That's really good.

 

[mmik]

Ok just tried it out. It's a little bit different than some matchups, because if you pocket the fruit, he can use his again until you pull it back out.

What I would do is pocket it for close range game, and pull it back out when you get father away. If he moves in on you, try short hopped zdrops. If you're quick, you can repick up his fruit indefinitely without it disappearing.

 

[Kipcom]

You just gotta pocket refresh by pulling it out and putting it back every 10-15 seconds. It can go for up to 30 seconds, but I wouldn't risk it.

IIRC, pocket refreshing is a legit thing.

Whoa, that's a thing? That's amazing...

Definitely going to use this constantly.

 

[Darklink401]

Whoa, that's a thing? That's amazing...

Definitely going to use this constantly.

You're gonna make ROBs and Bowser Jrs cri everytim.


Also it works with Pac-Man's fruit stuff as well.

Sadly, you can't refresh the fire hydrant, but eh XP