Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[SoniCraft]

I actually think the Balloon Jump custom move might be a good substitute for the recovery since it's a lot faster. If we angle it correctly, the Sheik won't be able to needle us, and we can grab the ledge. There's also Garden if regular Pocket is void, so that's something.

P.S. I think Villager has the best custom moves in the game in the sense of them giving him options to deal with every single MU. It's pretty awesome, but it also puts more pressure on us to master all those moves to the fullest.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of standard moves only since most tourneys at this point in time aren't allowing customs. But with customs I would argue that Extreme Balloons are the best overall option. Recovering low against Sheik isn't a very good idea because of BAir stage spikes, and its in that sort of position that Balloon Jump is best. So most of the time you should be avoiding coming in from below. When you're recovering horizontally is when needles and bouncing fish become an issue. But Extreme Balloons launch you a good distance upwards if both balloons get popped, meaning you aren't totally helpless. I'd actually say that with Extreme Balloons people should be aiming to only pop one balloon if they want to gimp us. Not that it makes much a difference though, since you can manually destroy the other balloon to still get the vertical jump. So basically Extreme Balloons because if...

...you happen to be recovering low, the constant threat of hitboxes makes Sheik risk getting hit and/or giving you your recovery back when trying to stage spike. In the event that only the balloons get popped, they'll still get hit (needles aren't their best option here and I think bouncing fish only gives intangibility on startup) and you'll get launched up towards the ledge. In the event that you get hit as well, you can still walltech and recover again (though I suppose you can also do that with Balloon Jump [though Balloon Jump's hitboxes aren't as versatile as Extreme Balloons'])

...you happen to be recovering high/horizontally, bouncing fish is still pretty unsafe for them due to what I think would be the impossible spacing necessary to only hit you and not the balloons. Also, I need to test this, but if the exploding hitbox from the first balloon doesn't cancel out the rest of the needles, the second balloon will get detonated as well, giving you the vertical boost. At this point you need to direct your descent carefully to avoid bouncing fish and FAir

Of course they always have the option of using Vanish to very safely pop our balloons and gimp so shrug

 

[SoniCraft]

I think if you're prepared for the stage spike then Balloon Jump shouldn't be that bad. Nairo walltechs all the time as Robin, why can't we as Villager? I guess if you wanna avoid getting hit at all, Extreme Balloons could be safer. Besides, if we just rocket when coming horizontally, then we should get enough coverage from underneath to recover either way. I find Extreme Balloons to be a little unpredictable in their movements, so they might not even benefit us in some cases.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Not sure if this has been posted but it doesn't hurt to mention it again since it ****ed me over today whilst I was playing as Villager

On the right side of Tortimer Island (Omega Mode), Bowling Ball doesn't drop all the way down when you drop it off the edge. It gets stuck on what appears to be a pixel of the side of the stage and stops halfway

So yea, be aware when trying to get those F Smash KO's on people who like to recover low when you're on that stage...

 

[RAzul]

My friend plays an exceptional Yoshi who I can and have beaten but I'm looking to make it consistent as opposed to sparse. Anyone have any tips on that match up? Any weaknesses Yoshi may have? Any Villager exploits. I've found that too much pressure on Yoshi is now very good. You NEED to mix it up against a good player. I tend to Nair a hell of a lot because Villager's is pretty friggin great! Also, I've been practicing dash, side smash/F Tilt pivoting which is super helpful as well in my game plan. FYI: FD is winnable for vs. Yoshi, but not the best choice. Battlefield is my choice atm as well as Yoshi's Island (ironically), although less so.

 

[Kofu]

Not sure if this has been posted but it doesn't hurt to mention it again since it ****ed me over today whilst I was playing as Villager

On the right side of Tortimer Island (Omega Mode), Bowling Ball doesn't drop all the way down when you drop it off the edge. It gets stuck on what appears to be a pixel of the side of the stage and stops halfway

So yea, be aware when trying to get those F Smash KO's on people who like to recover low when you're on that stage...

Confirmed this with a simple test. The side of the stage is technically uneven to the point where it stops our bowling ball (but not anything wall jump related). I doubt it'll be too much of a hindrance, especially since the 3DS version won't be as important soon.

Why does our own stage spite us? Cruel.

 

[Snover]

My friend plays an exceptional Yoshi who I can and have beaten but I'm looking to make it consistent as opposed to sparse. Anyone have any tips on that match up? Any weaknesses Yoshi may have? Any Villager exploits. I've found that too much pressure on Yoshi is now very good. You NEED to mix it up against a good player. I tend to Nair a hell of a lot because Villager's is pretty friggin great! Also, I've been practicing dash, side smash/F Tilt pivoting which is super helpful as well in my game plan. FYI: FD is winnable for vs. Yoshi, but not the best choice. Battlefield is my choice atm as well as Yoshi's Island (ironically), although less so.

I'm having the same problem, I'm playing a Yoshi online and he's just going in he just doesn't care and I don't know WHAT to do.
His Dash is busted his momentum is great his attacks hit way too hard and OMG don't get me started on those damn eggs!

 

[RAzul]

I'm having the same problem, I'm playing a Yoshi online and he's just going in he just doesn't care and I don't know WHAT to do.
His Dash is busted his momentum is great his attacks hit way too hard and OMG don't get me started on those damn eggs!

Haha, listen man, you're so not alone. If anything, I could show you a few things or you could play with my friend as well. Add my FC or send me a message since I can't see yours anywhere and we'll discuss it. I'll follow you here. If you're on BF, DEF utilize the platforms to drop bowling balls in between. It's a momentum breaker and a quick way to possibly earn a kill if you predict right. I LOVE that level for Villager. So many shenanigans. SH DAir (pop up) to consecutive UAirs at the top of the stage. If they don't catch on, you can land at least like 2 or three: 2 off of a double jump. Then, after fast falling onto the top platform, one more. His turnips have some good priority. Not the best, but good, though it depends on the # that comes out. Also, make sure you have great edge shenanigans. I have a few tricks that help a LOT. One of which I learned from ZeeZee but, I also taught myself you can also fall off the ledge, jump up and time it right enough to wall jump OFF of it. This may seem obvious and trvial but it's great for set ups of the Lloyd and F/BAirs as it launches you a platform length high.

 

[Kohak]

My friend plays an exceptional Yoshi who I can and have beaten but I'm looking to make it consistent as opposed to sparse. Anyone have any tips on that match up? Any weaknesses Yoshi may have? Any Villager exploits. I've found that too much pressure on Yoshi is now very good. You NEED to mix it up against a good player. I tend to Nair a hell of a lot because Villager's is pretty friggin great! Also, I've been practicing dash, side smash/F Tilt pivoting which is super helpful as well in my game plan. FYI: FD is winnable for vs. Yoshi, but not the best choice. Battlefield is my choice atm as well as Yoshi's Island (ironically), although less so.

Against Yoshi you shouldn't expect to get a ton of off stage gimps due to his super armor. A lot of his attacks come out quicker or have more priority in the air. I've died to a rising uair a lot, and that dair is scary. I found that a more often than not you can catch a yoshi in your usmash as they're jumping back onto stage. A lot of Yoshis won't go immediately to the ledge while recovering, but will opt to jump over the ledge and land with an ariel on stage. Villagers usmash is good to punish, has a safe range and nice priority. Set up trees to block from his egg throw, and don't really bother trying to pocket all his eggs (it isn't worth it). Dodge or shield his projectiles. Short hop fair from edge is really effective (its also our bread and butter) since a lot of Yoshis assume that their fsmash will always get you as your coming up from the ledge, Ive been able to use that a lot

 

[RAzul]

Against Yoshi you shouldn't expect to get a ton of off stage gimps due to his super armor. A lot of his attacks come out quicker or have more priority in the air. I've died to a rising uair a lot, and that dair is scary. I found that a more often than not you can catch a yoshi in your usmash as they're jumping back onto stage. A lot of Yoshis won't go immediately to the ledge while recovering, but will opt to jump over the ledge and land with an ariel on stage. Villagers usmash is good to punish, has a safe range and nice priority. Set up trees to block from his egg throw, and don't really bother trying to pocket all his eggs (it isn't worth it). Dodge or shield his projectiles. Short hop fair from edge is really effective (its also our bread and butter) since a lot of Yoshis assume that their fsmash will always get you as your coming up from the ledge, Ive been able to use that a lot

Superb analysis and retort sir. Yeah, I totally forget he has super armor but now will keep it in mind. I love what you said about USmashing near the ledge. That's a great counter, especially since it;s a multi-hit. The eggs are def not worth it, so there's that too. My edge shenanigans are great and i use our wall jumping mechanic to my advantage as well. What I tend to do is, upon recovery, if Yosh wants to get greedy and try to BAir me under a stage like FD, I fake him out, grab the ledge, follow him down and attempt to f/bair him off the stage as a spike. It is a viable kill move since we have incredible recovery. Of course though, as always, be cautious. Nair is an incredibly useful tool as well. Utilize that a lot, but not OD. Btw, getting Smash Wii U?

 

[Kohak]

Superb analysis and retort sir. Yeah, I totally forget he has super armor but now will keep it in mind. I love what you said about USmashing near the ledge. That's a great counter, especially since it;s a multi-hit. The eggs are def not worth it, so there's that too. My edge shenanigans are great and i use our wall jumping mechanic to my advantage as well. What I tend to do is, upon recovery, if Yosh wants to get greedy and try to BAir me under a stage like FD, I fake him out, grab the ledge, follow him down and attempt to f/bair him off the stage as a spike. It is a viable kill move since we have incredible recovery. Of course though, as always, be cautious. Nair is an incredibly useful tool as well. Utilize that a lot, but not OD. Btw, getting Smash Wii U?

If I know the Yoshi will go for the bair stage spike I just drop off the ledge really low, wait him out, and balloon back up. They only have one attempt. I am getting the wii u one! Pretty excited to use the gc controller for villager, I bet its gonna be a lot more comfortable

 

[Snover]

[quote="Kohak, post: 18016338, member: 269128"Pretty excited to use the gc controller for villager, I bet its gonna be a lot more comfortable[/quote]

Definitely, using the c stick to spam bowling balls is going to be great. Now we don't have to worry aboutfalling of the stage and making an aerial attack instead, or accidentally doing a tilt.

 

[Antonykun]

Can we all agree that Villager vs DDD is a 6.5:4.5 in villager's favor at worst at long range villager wins because of the slingshot deflecting Gordo and Lloyd restricting the ground and in long range Villager outspeeds the penguin with most of her normals.

 

[RAzul]

If I know the Yoshi will go for the bair stage spike I just drop off the ledge really low, wait him out, and balloon back up. They only have one attempt. I am getting the wii u one! Pretty excited to use the gc controller for villager, I bet its gonna be a lot more comfortable

can't wait to play with you on it.

 

[Kofu]

Can we all agree that Villager vs DDD is a 6.5:4.5 in villager's favor at worst at long range villager wins because of the slingshot deflecting Gordo and Lloyd restricting the ground and in long range Villager outspeeds the penguin with most of her normals.

Well, I don't think it's a 110% MU, but 60/40 or 65/35 seems about right. Pocketed Gordos are absurdly powerful, seemingly able to KO Dedede around 100% (silly for a character that heavy) and they come put crazy fast. Dedede can't do much to stop us from pelting him with a barrage of Lloid Rockets and slingshot pellets. Dedede is much heavier than we are, though, so it's a struggle to get KOs outside of gimps or Gordos. Not sure exactly what to place it at since I haven't fought any great Dededes.

His UAir is crazy good, though; it probably beats out every DAir in the game.

 

[Z-Bone]

Hey there. Yoshi main here, just checking other character boards to see what I can gather. I see some of you are having difficulty against Yoshis. The funny thing is, over on the Yoshi boards we've had some discussion on the difficulty of fighting Villagers!

If you have any particular questions about Yoshi, feel free to ask. As for the difficulties many of us have with Villager, it comes down to his annoying troll gameplay. I feel like once a good villager has me frustrated and chasing him, I'm done for. Turnips are just ridiculous (assuming you get two or three). I've been knocked straight out of a Yoshi Bomb by them. The tree blocks our eggs and putting out lloid rockets and slingshot spam can make things crazy.

Try to get the lead early against a Yoshi. Once the Yoshi is trying to make up lost ground, you can frustrate him with annoying shenanigans and at that point it's your match to lose.

 

[RAzul]

Hey there. Yoshi main here, just checking other character boards to see what I can gather. I see some of you are having difficulty against Yoshis. The funny thing is, over on the Yoshi boards we've had some discussion on the difficulty of fighting Villagers!

If you have any particular questions about Yoshi, feel free to ask. As for the difficulties many of us have with Villager, it comes down to his annoying troll gameplay. I feel like once a good villager has me frustrated and chasing him, I'm done for. Turnips are just ridiculous (assuming you get two or three). I've been knocked straight out of a Yoshi Bomb by them. The tree blocks our eggs and putting out lloid rockets and slingshot spam can make things crazy.

Try to get the lead early against a Yoshi. Once the Yoshi is trying to make up lost ground, you can frustrate him with annoying shenanigans and at that point it's your match to lose.

I do this strat against my friend who always beats me. I learned that this is truly how to do it. An early lead has a Yoshi player scrambling back. I will take note of this though. Thanks comrade.

 

[Antonykun]

Try to get the lead early against a Yoshi. Once the Yoshi is trying to make up lost ground, you can frustrate him with annoying shenanigans and at that point it's your match to lose.

I would argue that the same is true in reverse. If Yoshi can get the lead, then he can play a very defensive game with his speed and eggs (it doesn't matter that the tree blocks the eggs as if villager is behind the tree then he's not killing you) and his not horrible recovery that allows him to live up to 200% in Villager's worst scenario.

 

[RAzul]

I would argue that the same is true in reverse. If Yoshi can get the lead, then he can play a very defensive game with his speed and eggs (it doesn't matter that the tree blocks the eggs as if villager is behind the tree then he's not killing you) and his not horrible recovery that allows him to live up to 200% in Villager's worst scenario.

You ain't neva lied. Honestly, Yoshi has to be one of the most difficult non-heavy characters to kill in the game at high level play. His super armor and surprisingly good/high recovery make him a nightmare.

 

[Zurangatang]

[quote="Kohak, post: 18016338, member: 269128"Pretty excited to use the gc controller for villager, I bet its gonna be a lot more comfortable

Definitely, using the c stick to spam bowling balls is going to be great. Now we don't have to worry aboutfalling of the stage and making an aerial attack instead, or accidentally doing a tilt.[/quote]


Personally I prefer to have c stick set to tilts to villager. They come out faster and Villagers smash attacks are slow and situational. Side smash and down smash at least. I only use side smash off the ledge so I find side tilt way more useful. Also down smash is very situational, slow, and does one side at a time. I've never like moves that do that. Down tilt is great for stopping approaches.

 

[RAzul]

Off stage, it's like impossible to gimp a very good Yoshi. Seldom can you F smash them cuz they aren't ever really under the stage. Other than that, this match-up is a real pain for me. It is winnable as I have against my friend but after so many game played together, he's gotten to know my play style much, yet I still feel as though Yoshi's moves have ridiculous speed when they come out. His sex kick Nair is stupid. Also, a really good egg tosser is one of the most annoying techniques in the whole game. Don't get me started on his DACUS. Anyone, please, tho meow me some knowledge. I'm learning that patience is the key and to just about never grab.

 

[AnchorTea]

Some of you Villager users (including me) know that using Villager against a fast opponent can be so frustrating that you can destroy the gamepad like a waffer it really gets to you.

ZSS (aka Zealous Spamming Samus) is probably the biggest pain within the fast characters. ZSS attacks are mostly used for combos. (This is from an actual persons perspective/common sense.)

I shall list the things you must become aware of as Villager when fighting ZSS. You shall be the slayer of ZSS's.

1. Be fast, but not speed wise, attack wise.
Ok that sounded stupid, but you know what I mean. (I hope you do. It's late and i'm hungry) Now most ZSS players will try to attack you in a fashion that gives them a chance to combo you. You can't be fast since you're Villager, but Villager's air and tilt attacks are just...THE BEST. You can be fast by quickly tapping down in the air which makes you fall the ground immediately. This is EXTREMELY useful, as you can be in the air and go down quickly for a kill while using the down air.
Which is an instantaneous move. Also the slingshot can stop ZSS's little plans. Take note that the closer the shot comes contact, the better knockback it produces. The tilt moves are just so lovely and adorable. :3 Side tilt involves an umbrella (its getting intense already...) I can guarantee that you will use this tilt more than the other ones... Small range, but decent knockback plus around 10% means this move is a no brainer. Up tilt is quite awesome... If you land it. It's basically 2 upwards hits with one that does around 5% and the second one doing around 10% with a guaranteed K.O. to a lightweighted character with 70% (I think...) Down tilt is awesome, but you'll never get a chance to use it. MOVING ON.

2.What to do in certain situations.
ZSS has this habit of grabbing you and sending you upwards in the air in a provocative way. ZSS will then attack you in her up special.

Let me warn you...
Do not. I repeat. DO. NOT. TRY TO ATTACK BACK WHEN ZSS SENDS YOU FLYING UPWARDS FROM A GRAB. YOU WILL FAIL AND ZSS WILL WOMBO COMBO YOU INTO OBLIVION. JUST MASH DODGE AND PRAY ZSS MISSES YOU.

Now here comes my favorite part in seeing a ZSS player suffer... Since ZSS loves to be fancy and uses a whip. She will use the whip for a recover! Now Villager has a deadly counter-attack to this. Bowling ball, or his side smash. Villager drops a bowling ball that has AWESOME knockback. Since ZSS is already so close to the killzone. It's almost a guaranteed kill.

Anyway I hope this helped some of you Villagers! Make sure to keep pocketing (Did I say you should pocket ZSS's lazer thingy since it cause paralysis?) and umbrella hitting!

Good Luck!

 

[Antonykun]

Have you tried down-smash to up-smash?

 

[Volya]

Stay near the edge and backthrow him.

 

[SoniCraft]

Stay near the edge and backthrow him.

Easier said than done with Villager's wonky grab.

 

[ExtremebrawlerX]

A match between Me (Hound) as villager vs My man (Dark) as kirby. This was our first match in the wii u version of smash and i had a little bit more trouble with his kirby due to the rushdown. Next time i upload matches like these ill use the HDMI Device to capture the video better so in advance sorry for the quality. One last thing in my opinion villager is super good and i abuse that at the end of the match lol.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm pretty sure that this should be moved to the matchup thread. Anyway I can't watch the video as I'm on my phone, but I can talk about the Kirby matchup. Kirby wins air control over Villager especially air to ground what with d-air being a thing and all, but Villager has stronger spacing tools like Lloyd and slingshot. I would hardly call Kirby a counter for Villager as any good Villager can dance around him with Lloyd and slingshot. Do note that you are going to have a hard time trying to kill Kirby because of how aerial he is and most of your kill moves are inconsistent in the air.

 

[Kohak]

Off stage, it's like impossible to gimp a very good Yoshi. Seldom can you F smash them cuz they aren't ever really under the stage. Other than that, this match-up is a real pain for me. It is winnable as I have against my friend but after so many game played together, he's gotten to know my play style much, yet I still feel as though Yoshi's moves have ridiculous speed when they come out. His sex kick Nair is stupid. Also, a really good egg tosser is one of the most annoying techniques in the whole game. Don't get me started on his DACUS. Anyone, please, tho meow me some knowledge. I'm learning that patience is the key and to just about never grab.

Your troubles seem to be a matter of spacing. If you can't get the smash off stage you should position yourself maybe half a rolls worth of space from the ledge and wait to counterattack. Yoshi doesn't have many options from the ledge. Raising Nair is his best shot, but if you're spaced well you'll see that coming and can use usmash, shield/punish, pivot grab, or nair out of shield. I'll save some Yoshi replays the next time I find a decent one and post em here.

 

[ExtremebrawlerX]

I'm pretty sure that this should be moved to the matchup thread. Anyway I can't watch the video as I'm on my phone, but I can talk about the Kirby matchup. Kirby wins air control over Villager especially air to ground what with d-air being a thing and all, but Villager has stronger spacing tools like Lloyd and slingshot. I would hardly call Kirby a counter for Villager as any good Villager can dance around him with Lloyd and slingshot. Do note that you are going to have a hard time trying to kill Kirby because of how aerial he is and most of your kill moves are inconsistent in the air.

I dont really know the specifics to how a characters becomes a legit counter to another but the way i see it if a character has an advantage over another in a big way i consider it a counter measure. What you said is true because in the video i relied solely on the side smash and hoped he tried to challenge it to get a kill. I see my self limited when fighting kirby now with villager.

 

[JesterJaded]

I dont really know the specifics to how a characters becomes a legit counter to another but the way i see it if a character has an advantage over another in a big way i consider it a counter measure. What you said is true because in the video i relied solely on the side smash and hoped he tried to challenge it to get a kill. I see my self limited when fighting kirby now with villager.

That was your biggest problem, I believe -- the side smash spam. It was basically combo food for Kirby.

Usually you'll want to space the air-game against characters like Kirby and Jigglypuff, as those players tend to spam that approach. Villager's Fair is a great tool for this, I think. You'll need to do a lot more reading instead of maintaining ground control.

 

[ExtremebrawlerX]

That was your biggest problem, I believe -- the side smash spam. It was basically combo food for Kirby.

Usually you'll want to space the air-game against characters like Kirby and Jigglypuff, as those players tend to spam that approach. Villager's Fair is a great tool for this, I think. You'll need to do a lot more reading instead of maintaining ground control.

True but it was also my first time facing a good kirby against my villager so this was my test run, and i did also acted lazy by using the side smash to get a quick kill insted of waiting or making the oportunity lol.

 

[RAzul]

Your troubles seem to be a matter of spacing. If you can't get the smash off stage you should position yourself maybe half a rolls worth of space from the ledge and wait to counterattack. Yoshi doesn't have many options from the ledge. Raising Nair is his best shot, but if you're spaced well you'll see that coming and can use usmash, shield/punish, pivot grab, or nair out of shield. I'll save some Yoshi replays the next time I find a decent one and post em here.

Another great idea. I love your input Kohak. Please do save a good video to exhibit. Once I can learn this match up against my friend in particular and win consistently, I'll feel more confident about my game and play much better building off of that momentum.

 

[-Key-]

The characters I actually struggle against the most are Link and Toon Link. They can out-projectile Villager and force an approach, and that's not a situation that bodes well for Villager. Pocket is neutralized by the sheer volume of projectiles that have to be dealt with (and in such rapid succession). Chasing them vertically is always dangerous because their Dairs are so strong and last for such a long time. Villager is too slow on the ground to punish Dair landing lag very well. They edgeguard Villager well and seem to be two of the harder characters for Villager to edgeguard.

Perhaps as I get more experience with the matchup and adjust my play, things will get easier. But this is what I've dealt with so far.

 

[Antonykun]

Im not too sure against TL but Link is slow enough that close range rushdown will blow him up try using nairs up close and the slingshot to get closer. use your kill moves when appropriate. you need to be really aggressive to win.

 

[Antonykun]

You know, there's a lot of talk about Diddy Kong. Soooo.... do you guys have any tips on the Diddy matchups?

 

[Envoy_]

You know, there's a lot of talk about Diddy Kong. Soooo.... do you guys have any tips on the Diddy matchups?

What I like to do is camp and space him hardcore with lloids and pellets while waiting to steal his banana. Since the cool kids enjoy down throw into up air, I would plant a sapling and wait for them to slip up. Once they do, grow that sucker and you'll have an airborne monkey. Just having a sapling when they're near should be enough to scare them thus conditioning them to be more cautious and try not grab you as much. Doing slingshots is a good way to try and keep them grounded. Just space well. This match up can be very tedious and slow if they are patient. I hoped some of this was useful.

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention the matchup numbers. I personally think it's 60/40 in our favor since we have the tools to lock him down. With these tools, we can the plant seeds of fear both on the ground and in our opponents!

 

[AnchorTea]

Your welcome...

 

[Mr.Pikachu]

Shouldn't this go in the match-ups thread? Anyways good info!

 

[Volya]

Also pocket her b neutral as soon as possible (when fully charged it's even better) : You can easily place a good fsmash or a bdown (axe) if you manage to hit her back with her own projectile. The MU is not very hard imo

 

[Darklink401]

Most ZSS get offput by Lloid momentum stall into dair. They are a bit annoying to face, but personally I'd prefer fighting ZSS rather than Sheik.