Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Hong]

@ AnchorTea Your thread on the ZSS MU has been merged into the match-up thread.

 

[AnchorTea]

@ AnchorTea Your thread on the ZSS MU has been merged into the match-up thread.

Sorry. I'm still a bit new to Smashboards.

And now I shall make a Villager aerial guide in this thread.

 

[-Key-]

I know it has been discussed previously a little bit, but good gracious is Palutena a horrible matchup. I think that proper spacing is essential here. If you leave too much space, you're just going to get barraged by an onslaught of whatever that multi-shot homing move is. Reflect is miserable to deal with, but if you're properly spaced and can bait it out, it's laggy enough to allow you to jump over it and punish with Dair or Fair/Bair. One strategy I have employed lately is to jump over the Reflect and Bair since Palutenas tend to roll in the direction you just came from (if Dair isn't going to be quick enough to connect).

Other big issues are teleport, Counter, and the fact that it feels like all of Palutena's moves are quicker than Villager's. She is able to capitalize on whiffed attacks more effectively and can capitalize on those opportunities better than Villager can. Rapid A does silly amounts of damage and her throws have nearly-free follow-ups.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to really do other than make a lot of good reads and basically outplay the other player. Any suggestions? I need to study the matchup more so that I can hopefully come up with better ideas for how to tackle it.

 

[Kofu]

Pick a different character.

Honestly, it's probably one of the worst MUs in the game, and I don't even have that much experience with it. Reflect Barrier literally shuts down everything Villager wants to do. Lloid Rocket is worthless against it, approaching with FAir/BAir/dash attack doesn't work, our run speed and grab are both garbage so we can't try and muscle through the pushback effect it has on the ground, and Palutena has several options to snuff aerial approaches. Autoreticle just makes it worse, enabling Palutena to outcamp us because pocketing it is pointless (I've heard people advocate Giant Timber for the MU to makes it harder for her to camp us with autoreticle but it doesn't make it easier for us to approach so eh).

Two things that might make it winnable is if we can jump over Reflect Barrier with one full jump (doubtful) and if we can get close enough to her to smack her with Garden. I really don't see the point of taking normal Pocket in the MU unless you're planning on pocketing our own reflected garbage. It may also be more doable on stages with platforms (I've only ever played it on Final Destination). Still a horrible, horrible MU that's probably comparable to Dedede vs. Bowser in Brawl. Dedede just had one move, grab to DThrow, that turned the fight completely in his favor but if Bowser could avoid it he did okay. If we could avoid Reflect Barrier, we'd do okay.

Even fellow projectile specialist Mega Man isn't destroyed as hard because pellets cancel anything reflected back at him, his FAir/BAir/dash attack aren't projectiles, and his grab is normal speed and has good range. Still probably in Palutena's favor because it changes the way Mega Man has to fight.

If it's any consolation, the MU does force Palutena to run a generally inferior set of customs by giving up Super Speed for Reflect Barrier. Her MU against Villager is likely one of the few where her default set is the best choice.

 

[SoniCraft]

What character would be a solid pick against Palutena? I frequently use Shulk, Megaman, and DDD.

 

[Antonykun]

I know it has been discussed previously a little bit, but good gracious is Palutena a horrible matchup. I think that proper spacing is essential here. If you leave too much space, you're just going to get barraged by an onslaught of whatever that multi-shot homing move is. Reflect is miserable to deal with, but if you're properly spaced and can bait it out, it's laggy enough to allow you to jump over it and punish with Dair or Fair/Bair. One strategy I have employed lately is to jump over the Reflect and Bair since Palutenas tend to roll in the direction you just came from (if Dair isn't going to be quick enough to connect).
Other big issues are teleport, Counter, and the fact that it feels like all of Palutena's moves are quicker than Villager's. She is able to capitalize on whiffed attacks more effectively and can capitalize on those opportunities better than Villager can. Rapid A does silly amounts of damage and her throws have nearly-free follow-ups.
Honestly, I'm not sure what to really do other than make a lot of good reads and basically outplay the other player. Any suggestions? I need to study the matchup more so that I can hopefully come up with better ideas for how to tackle it.

the thing about palutena is that she isn't that good at keep away Auto-Reticle does not cover all of FD in her line of vision. Reflect even though it shuts down most of our approaches is not instantaneous nor does it recover instantaneously meaning we can bait it by placing Lloyd from far away run up to her roll behind the reflect and punish with Jabs or Axe or jump past the reflected Lloyd and hit her with nair/dair heck we can get cheeky and try to grab her with semi tether grab.
When Palutena's in the air there is very little reason to chase after her teleport is comes out almost in an instant and there's always counter/reflect, so instead use the time she's in the air to set up. Plant a sapling and/or water it put up a Lloyd in the distance to force her to evaluate reflect or not. Actually counter is not Marth's counter meaning that there is a noticeable frame window to hit her.
1111 Palutena is not that bad she just requires us to pretend we're captain Falcon and go aggro on her.
EDIT: Another thing to note is that you can get all levels of cheeky and cut a tree while reflect is close enough to be reflected but far away enough to be pocketed KOing with a pocketed tree is always satisfying.

 

[-Key-]

Pick a different character.

I really don't want to resort to this simply because I feel that it will result in Villager being unviable in tournament play. If all anyone has to do to beat Villager is go Palutena, that's pretty much the end of Villager.

In other news, I played some painful matches against Duck Hunt today. Will try to upload the replays for tips.

Thanks for the advice, guys!

 

[Kofu]

I really don't want to resort to this simply because I feel that it will result in Villager being unviable in tournament play. If all anyone has to do to beat Villager is go Palutena, that's pretty much the end of Villager.

In other news, I played some painful matches against Duck Hunt today. Will try to upload the replays for tips.

Thanks for the advice, guys!

Obviously it's not an end-all and hopefully with experience Villager mains will be able to beat pocket Palutenas that only exist to beat Villager. But I do think it's a troublesome that'll push us to our limits. I know a good Palutena main so hopefully I can get some good experience fighting her soon.

 

[AnchorTea]

I really don't want to resort to this simply because I feel that it will result in Villager being unviable in tournament play. If all anyone has to do to beat Villager is go Palutena, that's pretty much the end of Villager.

In other news, I played some painful matches against Duck Hunt today. Will try to upload the replays for tips.

Thanks for the advice, guys!

No worries I have beaten many Palutena's as Villager.

Villager can be used for tournament play.

 

[Kofu]

No worries I have beaten many Palutena's as Villager.

Villager can be used for tournament play.

Mind elaborating? From my perspective Reflect Barrier really limits us in the matchup. Knowing what you do to win would be great.

 

[Antonykun]

Mind elaborating? From my perspective Reflect Barrier really limits us in the matchup. Knowing what you do to win would be great.

Imma just take a guess and say that its because palutena's approach is not all that good so we are far stronger in long range than she is. Sure Reflect Barrier is going to stop our projectiles but without Super Speed her approach is limited. Once we get a lead we can camp her. If reflect Barrier is that much of a problem for you i would recomend baiting it to condition the opponent to not use Reflect Barrier.

 

[Shinuto]

I want to see how the **** you villager mains justify such broken recorvery and walls that are lloid rocket and tree. he cn just side b then short hop side air me to the blast range and theres not a damn thing i can do as wii fit trainer....seriously that up b is ******** I got him UNDER Smashville stage and he STILL recovered....mind you I hit after he had used his double jump so he only had his u b....HE needs a BIG recovery nerf...and dont say you cna gimp by hitting him or balloons that damn kid can move about like a fly in the air.

 

[Antonykun]

I want to see how the **** you villager mains justify such broken recorvery and walls that are lloid rocket and tree. he cn just side b then short hop side air me to the blast range and theres not a damn thing i can do as wii fit trainer....seriously that up b is ******** I got him UNDER Smashville stage and he STILL recovered....mind you I hit after he had used his double jump so he only had his u b....HE needs a BIG recovery nerf...and dont say you cna gimp by hitting him or balloons that damn kid can move about like a fly in the air.

Bruh this is some real salt: Lets calm down and take this one step at a time

First of all yes Villager does have a strong recovery Balloon Trip is really strong and Lloyd is there as an alternative, but here's the catch: Neither of them are fast like Shiek's or Palutena's recoveries. this means you can hit him/her. Granted the recovery isn't Duck Hunt's up B either (I think its called Duck Jump) so you'll need to practice your timing with it. Maybe you can convince a friend to help you with this. WFT (can i call them WTF plz) has a glorious B-air that allows them to stage spike Villager so that can work.

Now unto the the actual question: "How does WFT(WTF) deal with Villager"
Disclamer: I am by no means a WFT(WTF) Main so i don't know as much as them as an actual main.

WFT(WTF) has two projectiles to use against Villager I recommend spamming Header off the edge to egg villager to Pocket the ball. This way you don't have to deal with a pocket Sun Salutation. Alternatively you just leave that move at punish duty and maybe even use it to edge guard Villager if the pocketed Header. I think your main approach might be walk + crouch or the crawl as that crouch makes it borderline impossible for Villager to approach with F-air and B-air other than that i suggest reading up on this forum to see the limits on Villager.

Seriously though Villager's recovery should not get nerf, most of his/her game is based off the ground. A player with enough experience against villager can learn to use their character's best moves at edge guarding.

 

[Shinuto]

Bruh this is some real salt: Lets calm down and take this one step at a time

First of all yes Villager does have a strong recovery Balloon Trip is really strong and Lloyd is there as an alternative, but here's the catch: Neither of them are fast like Shiek's or Palutena's recoveries. this means you can hit him/her. Granted the recovery isn't Duck Hunt's up B either (I think its called Duck Jump) so you'll need to practice your timing with it. Maybe you can convince a friend to help you with this. WFT (can i call them WTF plz) has a glorious B-air that allows them to stage spike Villager so that can work.

Now unto the the actual question: "How does WFT(WTF) deal with Villager"
Disclamer: I am by no means a WFT(WTF) Main so i don't know as much as them as an actual main.

WFT(WTF) has two projectiles to use against Villager I recommend spamming Header off the edge to egg villager to Pocket the ball. This way you don't have to deal with a pocket Sun Salutation. Alternatively you just leave that move at punish duty and maybe even use it to edge guard Villager if the pocketed Header. I think your main approach might be walk + crouch or the crawl as that crouch makes it borderline impossible for Villager to approach with F-air and B-air other than that i suggest reading up on this forum to see the limits on Villager.

Seriously though Villager's recovery should not get nerf, most of his/her game is based off the ground. A player with enough experience against villager can learn to use their character's best moves at edge guarding.

sorry I just....I hate those damn smug players. always teabagging em behind their trees.

 

[Shinuto]

sorry I just....I hate those damn smug players. always teabagging em behind their trees.

I think it should atleast be easier to hit the balloons.

 

[Antonykun]

sorry I just....I hate those damn smug players. always teabagging em behind their trees.

Then use this time to position yourself. If villager is behind the tree then he can't attack you besides that telegraphed Timber attack.

 

[-Key-]

Imma just take a guess and say that its because palutena's approach is not all that good so we are far stronger in long range than she is. Sure Reflect Barrier is going to stop our projectiles but without Super Speed her approach is limited. Once we get a lead we can camp her. If reflect Barrier is that much of a problem for you i would recomend baiting it to condition the opponent to not use Reflect Barrier.

The problem lies in the fact that even if you DO bait it out, your punish window is extremely tight and the options you can use are extremely limited. Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I believe Palutena can move before Reflect finishes. I can't believe they made the cooldown on that move so short.

 

[CodyOdyO]

Mind elaborating? From my perspective Reflect Barrier really limits us in the matchup. Knowing what you do to win would be great.

Reflect Barrier comes out super slow, and can be easily baited, which then you can approach through the air and get a punish in with dair. Bait it with lloid, and then do mixups by approaching her through the air, or by pocketing Lloid. All of Villager's projectiles come out quick enough to where you should only be getting reflected if you're being too predictable. Utilize all of Villager's options, and shut down any approach Palu tries to make with slingshots/nair.

As for auto reticle that's also an easy fix. The startup of Lloid will actually eat all three shots and will still go after her since it's still in the startup animation.

On a different note: Would it be possible to focus, and dedicate discussion to one specific matchup for a few days so we can really develop conversation about it and then reach a general agreement about our views on the matchup as Villager mains? As of right now I believe that this thread lacks any real structure, and I don't like the spontaneity of character discussion.

I feel like if we had this type of format for this thread we can create deeper conversations about each matchup instead of one day talking about Mario, and then the next day talking about Ike. It prevents us from creating an in depth analysis and reaching a general consensus about each matchup.

Just my thoughts, I'm feeling rather OCD today.

 

[Meiwaku]

The basic strategy against Villager is to just shield more as his grab is pretty awful. WFT should use crouch and crawl mechanics to avoid some of Villager's projectiles as well. If you can keep Villager grounded and keep close quarters, it can be tough for him to get momentum. Also, short, spammy Sun Salutaions work best and can help to mitigate Villagers air-zoning game.

Recovery isn't an issue as basically everybody can recover from anywhere vertically. Use it to your advantage- Villager doesn't have a ton of safe landing options from off stage.

 

[-Key-]

Sounds reasonable. Where should we start?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

First off lay off the salt damn

Second of all are you using Sun Salutation and Header at all? Take the time that they're behind their tree to charge up your SS. Bait pocket out with header so they don't take your SS. Use DBC mixups to bait approaches and open up punishing opportunities. Get DB down when the opportunity presents itself because DB boosted FCSS is one of WFT's best KO options. USE GRAB WFT's grab is amazing, and BThrow is WFT's best throw imo. You also have a really low crawl so just duck and crawl beneath lloids instead of shielding them (or getting hit by them, apparently) so they can't spawn another as quickly. Cover yourself when you're offstage with header. Go for Jab 3 buries (remember to add the delay between Jab 2 and Jab 3 depending on the damage so you get the burying sweetspot). Since Villager is short and you probably already know how inherently bad WFT's smashes are, don't rely on them for KOs. When they're buried, your FSmash and DSmash are probably (definitely) going to miss, so take advantage of bury-release mechanics and nail them with BAir. BAir is a really good KO option, especially against Villager since it is way easier to hit Villager and not the balloons when recovering. Nair is really good for racking up damage, and the first hit of NAir at WFT's head has a good angle and knockback for setting up other things, so try and mix up SHFFNAirs. FTilt is another really good move, especially the back hit since it covers a more liberal area and the vertical KB is good against Villager. Even though FAir shield-poking shenanigans are gone don't be afraid to use it. FAir is an inherently good option against a Ballooning Villager by virtue of the angle at which you come in with the front hit.

Seriously though Villager's recovery isn't broken. Standard has no offensive presence, though don't throw out attacks left and right because aerial pivot mixups can open up safer landing options for them. Extreme balloons are pretty darn good but most of the time with those they'll be recovering low. Just stay away from the edge until after they detonate the balloons then go in

Also you probably shouldnt double post. Also also you didn't have to make a thread for this, should have posted in the social or maybe even the faq imo

 

[Shinuto]

First off lay off the salt damn

Second of all are you using Sun Salutation and Header at all? Take the time that they're behind their tree to charge up your SS. Bait pocket out with header so they don't take your SS. Use DBC mixups to bait approaches and open up punishing opportunities. Get DB down when the opportunity presents itself because DB boosted FCSS is one of WFT's best KO options. USE GRAB WFT's grab is amazing, and BThrow is WFT's best throw imo. You also have a really low crawl so just duck and crawl beneath lloids instead of shielding them (or getting hit by them, apparently) so they can't spawn another as quickly. Cover yourself when you're offstage with header. Go for Jab 3 buries (remember to add the delay between Jab 2 and Jab 3 depending on the damage so you get the burying sweetspot). Since Villager is short and you probably already know how inherently bad WFT's smashes are, don't rely on them for KOs. When they're buried, your FSmash and DSmash are probably (definitely) going to miss, so take advantage of bury-release mechanics and nail them with BAir. BAir is a really good KO option, especially against Villager since it is way easier to hit Villager and not the balloons when recovering. Nair is really good for racking up damage, and the first hit of NAir at WFT's head has a good angle and knockback for setting up other things, so try and mix up SHFFNAirs. FTilt is another really good move, especially the back hit since it covers a more liberal area and the vertical KB is good against Villager. Even though FAir shield-poking shenanigans are gone don't be afraid to use it. FAir is an inherently good option against a Ballooning Villager by virtue of the angle at which you come in with the front hit.

Seriously though Villager's recovery isn't broken. Standard has no offensive presence, though don't throw out attacks left and right because aerial pivot mixups can open up safer landing options for them. Extreme balloons are pretty darn good but most of the time with those they'll be recovering low. Just stay away from the edge until after they detonate the balloons then go in

Also you probably shouldnt double post. Also also you didn't have to make a thread for this, should have posted in the social or maybe even the faq imo

yeah...Im new here....doesnt excuse but I kinda get agead of myself in doing these, a lot of my posts are made in the heat of the moment right after losing....

 

[CodyOdyO]

Sounds reasonable. Where should we start?

Probably by getting the OP updated. Last time it was updated was September 30th (as of today). It would make the most sense imo to start alphabetically, and then move from A to Z accordingly, but since the OP appears to not get updated it makes the whole thing awkward.

I've always been more of a lurker than a poster until recent, so any ideas that anybody else may have I'm all ears.

 

[Kohak]

I don't really have advice for you because it is a poor match up for WFT, but I just couldn't help but comment because I think it's hilarious that your avatar matches the thread.

 

[SoniCraft]

We can also have a specific structure for posts so that the information is organized a lot more neatly. Then maybe we can even dedicate somebody to make a summary of the whole discussion on one MU so that there can be a link to that summary on the homepage. Just some ideas.

 

[AnchorTea]

Probably by getting the OP updated. Last time it was updated was September 30th (as of today). It would make the most sense imo to start alphabetically, and then move from A to Z accordingly, but since the OP appears to not get updated it makes the whole thing awkward.

I've always been more of a lurker than a poster until recent, so any ideas that anybody else may have I'm all ears.

Well, some Palutena players don't know that a reflected timber can be pocketed, so you can bait a reflect and pocket a timber and strike when Palutena is in range.

 

[CodyOdyO]

We can also have a specific structure for posts so that the information is organized a lot more neatly. Then maybe we can even dedicate somebody to make a summary of the whole discussion on one MU so that there can be a link to that summary on the homepage. Just some ideas.

I agree. If anybody were interested in dedicating time and effort into doing so (I'm willing) it can be a very effective way to create an index on each matchup for Villager. That way if somebody is having trouble with Palutena they can consult the index and read up on the matchup info without having to search through literally every page in an attempt to find it.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

thoughts on villager vs puff?

 

[Antonykun]

Jigglypuff is weird because she has both a really good and a really bad approach. What I mean is that while she gets in easily there's very little she can do to stay in. Use this to your advantage.
SH Lloyd covers one of puff's best approach jumping fair/nair. u-air beats jiggs arial approach but she can go in a distance where neither uair or fair are very effective if she does play defensively
Anyways to beat jiggs you have to play defensively.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

Jigglypuff is weird because she has both a really good and a really bad approach. What I mean is that while she gets in easily there's very little she can do to stay in. Use this to your advantage.
SH Lloyd covers one of puff's best approach jumping fair/nair. u-air beats jiggs arial approach but she can go in a distance where neither uair or fair are very effective if she does play defensively
Anyways to beat jiggs you have to play defensively.

our slingshot loses to jiggs nair/fair so she can play aggressively and make slingshot ineffective which suuuucks

 

[Rockaphin]

our slingshot loses to jiggs nair/fair so she can play aggressively and make slingshot ineffective which suuuucks

At first I thought Villager had this match-up in the bag due to slingshots and spacing, but I found out that Jigglypuff's aerials beat the slingshot which is bad.

I still think Villager wins slightly though. But I'm not really 100% on that.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

If you plant a tree it makes it really hard for puff to approach you, then she is at the mercy of Slingshot/Gyroid spam. And with puff being so light U-Air and U-Smash kill pretty early. Plus U-Smash shuts down a lot of Puff's aerial approaches with it having a huge overhead, disjoint hitbox. I also find Nair to be really useful in this matchup since you can fly behind jiggs with it and you keep enough momentum that it's hard for her to turn around and hit you in the air.

 

[DtJ SmithZzz]

If you plant a tree it makes it really hard for puff to approach you, then she is at the mercy of Slingshot/Gyroid spam. And with puff being so light U-Air and U-Smash kill pretty early. Plus U-Smash shuts down a lot of Puff's aerial approaches with it having a huge overhead, disjoint hitbox. I also find Nair to be really useful in this matchup since you can fly behind jiggs with it and you keep enough momentum that it's hard for her to turn around and hit you in the air.

I'll mess with tree. I agree with usmash, however being behind jiggs I don't think is a great idea because of her bair & our nair doesn't have a ton of range.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Merged @ Shinuto 's thread on the WFT matchup into the matchup thread. By the way, have you had any luck against the character?

 

[Kofu]

Since legitimate Wii Fit Trainer mains are source I don't have experience fighting them but I did see a post where someone talked about how WFT did against various characters. The preface to the Villager MU was basically "please no." We're reasonably short (although not to the extent of some others) and we can Pocket her projectiles. Pocket's release is a lot faster than Sun Salutation's standard release so that alone gives us an edge. I can try to find the post of you're interested.

 

[AnchorTea]

Going back to the Palutena debate. Can Palutena's reflect be pocketed?

 

[TunaAndBacon]

I'll mess with tree. I agree with usmash, however being behind jiggs I don't think is a great idea because of her bair & our nair doesn't have a ton of range.

Typically you're far enough away to not get hit by her Bair since it's ranged has been decreased.

 

[zackattack_056]

I usually don't use pocket competitively. I don't use tree unless I know the opponents will use projectiles constantly and villager can recover easily! I am much better than random spammers or pocket spammers. I use.lloid rocket, attacks, and special attacks primarily.but I CANT BEAT CAPTIAN FALCON please help

 

[Antonykun]

I usually don't use pocket competitively. I don't use tree unless I know the opponents will use projectiles constantly and villager can recover easily! I am much better than random spammers or pocket spammers. I use.lloid rocket, attacks, and special attacks primarily.but I CANT BEAT CAPTIAN FALCON please help

Hey @ Indigo Jeans we got another thread that needs to be moved.
Well seeing as this my 100th post i might as well deluge information about my favorite MU besides ().
Falcon is very fast so he is going to try to rush you down so limit his approach with Lloyds and Slingshots and partially water a sapling so when he comes closer you can hit him with the huge hitbox of the large tree. when he's close use nairs, jabs, f-tilts, and maybe even the axe. When he is off the stage try to gimp him as his recovery is awful.

Against Falcon you need to play as lame as possible only going in when you can get away with it rather than just cause.

 

[Antonykun]

Today i just learned that pk fire (and I assume arcfire) can hit villager's balloon and get the flame pillar. If you are not careful Ness(or Robin) can spam their fires until you have like 100% or more. Against those two it is imperative you hold on to the edge for a bit to make use of the ledge invincibility. Almost lost a match against a Ness that Spammed PK fire while i was off the ledge.

Going back to the Palutena debate. Can Palutena's reflect be pocketed?

No If it could we wouldn't be discussing this as a problematic MU.

In other news i have an idea: Every week i or someone else can put up 2 threads for Villager MUs. We can then discuss on those forums and if later we miss something for that MU someone can go back to the thread and mention it.