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LOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything. Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.Squirtle is like Marth without disjointed hitboxes.
MmhmmLOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything.
Fair fair fair fair fair fair fair.Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.
No, because Squirtle does well against TL. It wouldn't be ****, it would be close.Also, TL would destroy Marth if not for his disjointed hitboxes, so even if your comparison were true, it would only mean that TL vs Squirtle is a **** matchup in TL's favor which clearly isn't the case.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212981Care to back up that statement?
Sorry but Sasukes right.LOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything. Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.
Also, TL would destroy Marth if not for his disjointed hitboxes, so even if your comparison were true, it would only mean that TL vs Squirtle is a **** matchup in TL's favor which clearly isn't the case. Care to back up that statement?
If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.Mmhmm
Fair fair fair fair fair fair fair.
Bair bair bair.
Space.
Fair fair fair fair fair.
Space.
Grab.
Fair fair fair fair.
You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.No, because Squirtle does well against TL. It wouldn't be ****, it would be close.
Which is it.
You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage. We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair. If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.And Marth wouldn't get ***** without his disjointed hit boxes, because they aren't even that big.
Like only a character width of size. Most characters have more range then that.
If your that close to him and using an aerial move at the same time he is, you still have a good chance to hit him (unlike in Melee).
So a character with slightly more range would be like almost the same ****, without sweet spotting.
Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement abotu Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."
Name one good Marth that doesn't go by that strategy with a few other moves mixed in for killing and mind games. Or heck, how SHOULD Marth be played then?If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.
That was enough because its true and enough to prove my point.You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.
You clearly don't know **** about this game.You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage.
Who said anything about Toon Link?We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT HIT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair.
*has nothing to do with the argument*Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair.
So your saying TL can shield grab every character that jumps and uses an aerial move in his direction?If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.
Because TL doesn't "****" Squirtle (who uses the same strategy in the air as Marth). Therefore, TL doesn't **** Marth without disjointed hitboxes.Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement about Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."
Guy read my post yoh.If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.
You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.
You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage. We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair. If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.
Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement abotu Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."
For most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.Name one good Marth that doesn't go by that strategy with a few other moves mixed in for killing and mind games. Or heck, how SHOULD Marth be played then?
Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isnt laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isnt as safe going into the air with it.The reason Marth uses Fair a lot is because its fast, has good knock back, and isn't laggy.
His Dair also has disjointed hitboxes. Why don't you spam that?
Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.That was enough because its true and enough to prove my point.
And notice that there was more "Fair" then "Bair". =)
Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.You clearly don't know **** about this game.
And you just described what Fair does.
I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).Who said anything about Toon Link?
And yes he will. Its called Zair.
"So if TL spaces correctly blah blah blah. Marth can't hit him at the same time blah blah blah".
Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.So your saying TL can shield grab every character that jumps and uses an aerial move in his direction?
Uhh, no. Your in the air. And you have another jump. If this was the case, TL would always be able to shield grab (lets say) Luigi. Which he can't.
I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.Because TL doesn't "****" Squirtle (who uses the same strategy in the air as Marth). Therefore, TL doesn't **** Marth without disjointed hitboxes.
Ahh I see my badFor most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.
Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isnt laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isnt as safe going into the air with it.
Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.
Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.
I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).
Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.
I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.
iRjOn: I never debated the TL vs Squirtle matchup, like I said I don't care about that.
Thats ground game. Whats he going to do in the air?For most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.
Because he has bananas and doesn't need that move? Would Marth need stuff like that if he had bananas too?Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isn't laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isn't as safe going into the air with it.
Is that what those characters are doing the majority of the match?Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.
Yes, but do you use those moves as much as Marth's Fair?Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.
Lets make this simplistic.I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).
You see those moves much less then you see Marth's Fair. Which is his primary move.Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.
What your saying is that characters have different options at different times of the battle.I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.
In his current metagame, Marth's ground game is just as important as his air game. Yes, fair the staple of his gameplay. But lets looks at the rest of his top moves: Dtilt, DB, DS, Grab, Jab, Nair. As you can see, Marth has more tools on the ground than he does in the air. And most good Marths do stay grounded quite a lot.Thats ground game. Whats he going to do in the air?
Marth spends a considerably longer time in the air then the ground.
But its widely accepted that Diddy without bananas is not a good character. If bair has almost the same speed and better knockback then Marth's fair, he would be able to use it the same way Marth uses fair. But thats not the case. The reason I'm saying Diddy's isn't safe, is because if his opponent also unleashes an attack, there is a great chance he will be hit. Same deal with squirtle, just to a slightly lesser extent. The reason for this? Lack of a disjointed hitbox.Because he has bananas and doesn't need that move? Would Marth need stuff like that if he had bananas too?
Also that move is slower and has a little more knock back.
And your saying yourself that Diddy isn't safe with it. That might also be why?
Marth is safe with Fair. So is Squirtle with his Fair/ Bair/ whatever.
No, but Marth isn't doing fair for most of the match either. Is it his most used move? Yes, but combined he uses his other moves a lot more.Is that what those characters are doing the majority of the match?
What your saying really is little things that are not what the big picture is about.
The big picture is that they're both going to use a similar move in the air for most of the match.
Even if they do other stuff, thats what they're going to do for most of the match.
Thats why Squirtle is "like" Marth and not "almost" or "extremely similar to" Marth.
Same response as above, Marth uses his other moves, combined at least, a LOT more than he uses fair.Yes, but do you use those moves as much as Marth's Fair?
Because that is just one aspect of the match. Squirtle has other things going for him against TL besides fair that Marth, without disjoints, wouldn't have.Lets make this simplistic.
I'm saying that:
Squirtle ≈ Marth w/o (without) disjointed HB (his boxes)
Squirlte > TL
Marth w/o HB > TL
I think your saying:
Squirtle ≠ Marth w/o HB
Squirtle > TL, whatever
Marth w/o HB < TL
I've been saying that Marth without disjointed hit boxes would still beat TL.
I don't understand how that doesn't make sense, considering that Marth's Fair would be like Squirtle's.
It seems like your whole argument is under the assumption that for most of the match, Marth is in the air fairing, which simply isn't true.You see those moves much less then you see Marth's Fair. Which is his primary move.
Even if those moves are weakened, Marth can just stay in the air. He doesn't that most of the match anyway.
Ok, so Marth's non disjointed fair is similar to Squirtles, what else? Thats really it.What your saying is that characters have different options at different times of the battle.
What I'm saying is that during most of the battle, they're doing the same damn thing.
So when I saw Squirtle is the same as Marth without disjointed hit boxes, it means that throughout most of the match, you should be expecting mostly the same crap.
Fair enough, lets take into consideration Samus though. Who relies fully on camping the way Falco does. They aren not similar characters though.And TL doesn't rely NEARLY as much on camping as Falco. Its like comparing Melee Fox to Falco.
Thats a really bad example. Compare the MAIN asset of both characters games.
Like Melee Dr. Mario and Mario's Uair game.
They have a lot of different things they can do, but thats pretty much the same crap.
Approaching with a RAR and using Fair the way Marth does are two completely different ideas.And on the diddy thing comparing a bair to a fair here really doesn't work...
Alot of Diddys (me, NinjaLink,others) RAR with him.