Toon Link Matchup Thread

[Sosuke]

Squirtle is like Marth without disjointed hitboxes.

Theres no way its that much in our advantage.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wow people this thread is SO outdated and biased please dont pay attention to this. This is more biased than me.

 

[Remzi]

Squirtle is like Marth without disjointed hitboxes.

LOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything. Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.

Also, TL would destroy Marth if not for his disjointed hitboxes, so even if your comparison were true, it would only mean that TL vs Squirtle is a **** matchup in TL's favor which clearly isn't the case. Care to back up that statement?

 

[Sosuke]

LOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything.

Mmhmm

Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.

Fair fair fair fair fair fair fair.
Bair bair bair.
Space.
Fair fair fair fair fair.
Space.
Grab.
Fair fair fair fair.

Also, TL would destroy Marth if not for his disjointed hitboxes, so even if your comparison were true, it would only mean that TL vs Squirtle is a **** matchup in TL's favor which clearly isn't the case.

No, because Squirtle does well against TL. It wouldn't be ****, it would be close.
Which is it.

And Marth wouldn't get ***** without his disjointed hit boxes, because they aren't even that big.
Like only a character width of size. Most characters have more range then that.
If your that close to him and using an aerial move at the same time he is, you still have a good chance to hit him (unlike in Melee).
So a character with slightly more range would be like almost the same ****, without sweet spotting.

Care to back up that statement?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212981

 

[iRjOn]

LOL, saying that really doesn't mean anything. Marth's disjointed hitbox are such a large part of his character and playstyle that comparing Squirtle to Marth without disjointed hitboxes really has no value.

Also, TL would destroy Marth if not for his disjointed hitboxes, so even if your comparison were true, it would only mean that TL vs Squirtle is a **** matchup in TL's favor which clearly isn't the case. Care to back up that statement?

Sorry but Sasukes right.
Squirtle is bad for Toon Link.
Lets look at what he has on us.
Shell shifting...
this **** is annoying
Speed
hes about Marths speed
Combo ability
like better than Marths cause his aerial DI is better than Marths. But not as good as Warios or Jiggs.
Shortness.
idk how it'd look but if Marth was short omfg. Thats what squirtles like.
Invulnarablity frames.
nearly EVERY frame he is in his shell...fsmash, dsmash, nair(from the top). He has these. And his side b has it dunno if you'll see it much...
But think about it he INVULNERABLE to our projectile spam while approaching.
Even though its got a good bit of lagg afterwards...so idk.
His aerials are all as fast as or faster than bair our combo baby.
Squirtle can easily avoid projectiles.
Arrows are cancelled by his aerials I believe.
He is a worser Marth for Toon Link.
The only thing that makes this match up not like hard as Marth is the Pokemon Trainer exhustion feature.
His usmash eventually will become weak.
And so will all of his other moves.
But Squirtle is not in Toon Link's advantage at all

And Marth w/o disjointed hitboxes would still beat Toon Link.
But not as bad.
Its Marth speed that makes him troublesome for Toon Link

 

[Alzi]

Squirtle is so dam hard to hit with Zair.

 

[Remzi]

Mmhmm

Fair fair fair fair fair fair fair.
Bair bair bair.
Space.
Fair fair fair fair fair.
Space.
Grab.
Fair fair fair fair.

If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.

No, because Squirtle does well against TL. It wouldn't be ****, it would be close.
Which is it.

You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.

And Marth wouldn't get ***** without his disjointed hit boxes, because they aren't even that big.
Like only a character width of size. Most characters have more range then that.
If your that close to him and using an aerial move at the same time he is, you still have a good chance to hit him (unlike in Melee).
So a character with slightly more range would be like almost the same ****, without sweet spotting.

You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage. We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair. If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212981

Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement abotu Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."

 

[Sosuke]

If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.

Name one good Marth that doesn't go by that strategy with a few other moves mixed in for killing and mind games. Or heck, how SHOULD Marth be played then?

The reason Marth uses Fair a lot is because its fast, has good knock back, and isn't laggy.
His Dair also has disjointed hitboxes. Why don't you spam that?

You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.

That was enough because its true and enough to prove my point.
And notice that there was more "Fair" then "Bair". =)

You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage.

You clearly don't know **** about this game.
And you just described what Fair does.

We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT HIT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair.

Who said anything about Toon Link?
And yes he will. Its called Zair.
"So if TL spaces correctly blah blah blah. Marth can't hit him at the same time blah blah blah".

Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair.

*has nothing to do with the argument*

If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.

So your saying TL can shield grab every character that jumps and uses an aerial move in his direction?
Uhh, no. Your in the air. And you have another jump. If this was the case, TL would always be able to shield grab (lets say) Luigi. Which he can't.

Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement about Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."

Because TL doesn't "****" Squirtle (who uses the same strategy in the air as Marth). Therefore, TL doesn't **** Marth without disjointed hitboxes.

I thought that would be pretty obvious when I linked that.

 

[iRjOn]

If that isn't a completely simplistic and false look at Marth's character and playstyle then I don't know what is. But the reason Marth is able to use fair a lot is because of his disjointed hitboxes.


You still haven't said anything that backs up Squirtle being similar to Marth. Unless you consider that "bair bair bair" thing a legit comment. In which case I'll reply accordingly.



You clearly don't know Marth at all. Marth's best and most feared asset is his ability to sit safely behind his sword and deliver damage. We should assume that the Marth is spacing properly, and if he is, TL's sword will NOT him if he attacks the same time as a Marth fair. If Marth had his disjointed hitboxes removed, he would lose at long range and close range. Long range is obvious, and at close range TL could camp him with quick aerials and zair. He would also be able to shield grab pretty much everything since even at perfect spacing he would be very close to TL.


Why are you showing me this? lol, i never argued with the TL/Squirtle matchup, and I dont really care about it tbh. I only debated your statement abotu Squirtle being "Marth without disjoints."

Guy read my post yoh.
It explains what Sasuke is trying to say to you.

 

[Remzi]

Name one good Marth that doesn't go by that strategy with a few other moves mixed in for killing and mind games. Or heck, how SHOULD Marth be played then?

For most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.

The reason Marth uses Fair a lot is because its fast, has good knock back, and isn't laggy.
His Dair also has disjointed hitboxes. Why don't you spam that?

Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isnt laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isnt as safe going into the air with it.

That was enough because its true and enough to prove my point.
And notice that there was more "Fair" then "Bair". =)

Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.

You clearly don't know **** about this game.
And you just described what Fair does.

Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.

Who said anything about Toon Link?
And yes he will. Its called Zair.
"So if TL spaces correctly blah blah blah. Marth can't hit him at the same time blah blah blah".

I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).

So your saying TL can shield grab every character that jumps and uses an aerial move in his direction?
Uhh, no. Your in the air. And you have another jump. If this was the case, TL would always be able to shield grab (lets say) Luigi. Which he can't.

Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.

Because TL doesn't "****" Squirtle (who uses the same strategy in the air as Marth). Therefore, TL doesn't **** Marth without disjointed hitboxes.

I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.

iRjOn: I never debated the TL vs Squirtle matchup, like I said I don't care about that.

 

[iRjOn]

For most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.



Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isnt laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isnt as safe going into the air with it.



Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.


Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.



I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).




Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.





I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.

iRjOn: I never debated the TL vs Squirtle matchup, like I said I don't care about that.

Ahh I see my bad
:O

But Marth and Squirtle are alike in ways of thier approaches.

You are probally misunderstanding Sasuke.
Sasuke isn't getting pissy just how he words his stuff.
Try to think from his side.
I dont think Sasuke called them similar...
He said Squirtle is like Marth w/o a disjointed hit box.
Not similar.
There is a difference.

And on the diddy thing comparing a bair to a fair here really doesn't work...
Alot of Diddys (me, NinjaLink,others) RAR with him.

 

[Sosuke]

For most of the match, Marth should zone with fairs, dtilts, jabs, nairs, and other good ranged moves that are quick. Then he should punish mistakes with DB. Marth also wants to try and setup juggles whenever possible.

Thats ground game. Whats he going to do in the air?
Marth spends a considerably longer time in the air then the ground.

Diddy's bair is quick, has good knockback, and isn't laggy. Why doesn't it work as well as Marths fair? Because it isn't disjointed. And Diddy isn't as safe going into the air with it.

Because he has bananas and doesn't need that move? Would Marth need stuff like that if he had bananas too?

Also that move is slower and has a little more knock back.
And your saying yourself that Diddy isn't safe with it. That might also be why?
Marth is safe with Fair. So is Squirtle with his Fair/ Bair/ whatever.

Marth uses Up B out of shield, so does Samus, therefore Marth is samus without projectiles. Thats pretty much the logic you are using.

Is that what those characters are doing the majority of the match?
What your saying really is little things that are not what the big picture is about.
The big picture is that they're both going to use a similar move in the air for most of the match.
Even if they do other stuff, thats what they're going to do for most of the match.
Thats why Squirtle is "like" Marth and not "almost" or "extremely similar to" Marth.

Yes, as well as dtilt, ftilt, jab, nair, etc. And no need to get pissy over a simple debate.

Yes, but do you use those moves as much as Marth's Fair?

I'm bringing in TL because Squirtle does well against him. And if Squirtle is Marth without disjoints, then Marth without disjoints should also do well. That is why I was explaining how TL would Beat Marth without disjoints (the part you deemed unrelated to the argument at hand).

Lets make this simplistic.

I'm saying that:
Squirtle ≈ Marth w/o (without) disjointed HB (his boxes)
Squirlte > TL
Marth w/o HB > TL

I think your saying:
Squirtle ≠ Marth w/o HB
Squirtle > TL, whatever
Marth w/o HB < TL

I've been saying that Marth without disjointed hit boxes would still beat TL.
I don't understand how that doesn't make sense, considering that Marth's Fair would be like Squirtle's.

Excuse me, should have been more clear. Marths ground game would be shut down. Dtilts, ftilts, and jabs would become considerably less effective since the risk for getting shield grabbed is much higher. Any SHFF'd aerial would also be shield grabbed, with is something Marth likes to do a lot.

You see those moves much less then you see Marth's Fair. Which is his primary move.
Even if those moves are weakened, Marth can just stay in the air. He doesn't that most of the match anyway.

I was asking you to prove how Squirtle and Marth w/o disjoints were similar. Anyways, same air strategy =/= similar characters. Falco and TL both rely on camping w/ projectiles, but they are far from similar. Squirtle has a completely different ground game, a different defensive air game, much different grab game, different off stage game, different recovery style, etc etc.

What your saying is that characters have different options at different times of the battle.
What I'm saying is that during most of the battle, they're doing the same damn thing.
So when I saw Squirtle is the same as Marth without disjointed hit boxes, it means that throughout most of the match, you should be expecting mostly the same crap.

And TL doesn't rely NEARLY as much on camping as Falco. Its like comparing Melee Fox to Falco.
Thats a really bad example. Compare the MAIN asset of both characters games.
Like Melee Dr. Mario and Mario's Uair game.
They have a lot of different things they can do, but thats pretty much the same crap.

 

[Remzi]

Thats ground game. Whats he going to do in the air?
Marth spends a considerably longer time in the air then the ground.

In his current metagame, Marth's ground game is just as important as his air game. Yes, fair the staple of his gameplay. But lets looks at the rest of his top moves: Dtilt, DB, DS, Grab, Jab, Nair. As you can see, Marth has more tools on the ground than he does in the air. And most good Marths do stay grounded quite a lot.

Because he has bananas and doesn't need that move? Would Marth need stuff like that if he had bananas too?

Also that move is slower and has a little more knock back.
And your saying yourself that Diddy isn't safe with it. That might also be why?
Marth is safe with Fair. So is Squirtle with his Fair/ Bair/ whatever.

But its widely accepted that Diddy without bananas is not a good character. If bair has almost the same speed and better knockback then Marth's fair, he would be able to use it the same way Marth uses fair. But thats not the case. The reason I'm saying Diddy's isn't safe, is because if his opponent also unleashes an attack, there is a great chance he will be hit. Same deal with squirtle, just to a slightly lesser extent. The reason for this? Lack of a disjointed hitbox.

Is that what those characters are doing the majority of the match?
What your saying really is little things that are not what the big picture is about.
The big picture is that they're both going to use a similar move in the air for most of the match.
Even if they do other stuff, thats what they're going to do for most of the match.
Thats why Squirtle is "like" Marth and not "almost" or "extremely similar to" Marth.

No, but Marth isn't doing fair for most of the match either. Is it his most used move? Yes, but combined he uses his other moves a lot more.

Yes, but do you use those moves as much as Marth's Fair?

Same response as above, Marth uses his other moves, combined at least, a LOT more than he uses fair.

Lets make this simplistic.

I'm saying that:
Squirtle ≈ Marth w/o (without) disjointed HB (his boxes)
Squirlte > TL
Marth w/o HB > TL

I think your saying:
Squirtle ≠ Marth w/o HB
Squirtle > TL, whatever
Marth w/o HB < TL

I've been saying that Marth without disjointed hit boxes would still beat TL.
I don't understand how that doesn't make sense, considering that Marth's Fair would be like Squirtle's.

Because that is just one aspect of the match. Squirtle has other things going for him against TL besides fair that Marth, without disjoints, wouldn't have.

You see those moves much less then you see Marth's Fair. Which is his primary move.
Even if those moves are weakened, Marth can just stay in the air. He doesn't that most of the match anyway.

It seems like your whole argument is under the assumption that for most of the match, Marth is in the air fairing, which simply isn't true.

What your saying is that characters have different options at different times of the battle.
What I'm saying is that during most of the battle, they're doing the same damn thing.
So when I saw Squirtle is the same as Marth without disjointed hit boxes, it means that throughout most of the match, you should be expecting mostly the same crap.

Ok, so Marth's non disjointed fair is similar to Squirtles, what else? Thats really it.

And TL doesn't rely NEARLY as much on camping as Falco. Its like comparing Melee Fox to Falco.
Thats a really bad example. Compare the MAIN asset of both characters games.
Like Melee Dr. Mario and Mario's Uair game.
They have a lot of different things they can do, but thats pretty much the same crap.

Fair enough, lets take into consideration Samus though. Who relies fully on camping the way Falco does. They aren not similar characters though.

And on the diddy thing comparing a bair to a fair here really doesn't work...
Alot of Diddys (me, NinjaLink,others) RAR with him.

Approaching with a RAR and using Fair the way Marth does are two completely different ideas.

 

[iRjOn]

^^^^My point exactly thats why the thing you said about Diddy doesn't belong.

Diddy's back air has more lagg than Marths fair.

 

[VietGeek]

TL;DR - Squirtle ***** Toon Link due to speed, intense pressuring, and good kill ability. Marth ***** Toon Link due to speed, intense pressuring, and good kill ability. Squirtle has no disjoints, Marth does.

Relatively speaking in terms of why they **** Toon Link, their attributes are similar as to why they win out. But Squirtle has no disjoints, therefore "Squirtle is like Marth w/o disjoints" is a valid statement in this situation. We all know that if we look into this in finer detail, that is not the case.

Assuming Marth's range is not compromised if he didn't have a disjoint, he was still be as almost as effective as he is now. A majority of his range involves how he stretches out his arm, which is a hurtbox. In most situations, disjoint or not, if TL could shieldgrab, he would succeed regardless I'm sure.