Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Moobussir]

I sadly cannot speak for the new DLC characters as my 3DS is broken, so I can't play against them online for basic info, and I've only fought one Bayonetta at my locals (A Melee player who tried her in pools vs me). That was just one match but I feel like Toon Link wins that matchup due to her poor approach and frame data that's worse then even ours. As for Corrin, do you have replays? I can analyze then and give advice on both plays and what I see from the matchup.

However that's not what I'm here to talk about today. I promised a Greninja post and I'm delivering.



I fight a local Greninja occasionally, and our sets end up being very close between each other. I've learned a lot of what Greninja plays like, so I'm offering this advice to those who fight him.

Greninja in the neutral will mostly rely on one of two things. He can toss Shuriken's to catch you and space, or approach with N-air. For Shuriken's, the less charge on them, the farther they travel, so be aware of how Greninja uses them to interrupt space. In the air, Greninja floats after launching one, which extends his edgeguard and can trip up your aerial approach. When Greninja approaches, he commits fully to running in with N-air, which leads to many combo's, the most notable being his Footstool -> D-air lock combo. The timing for this is very strict, and can leave him open to punishes, so be sure to take advantage of him if he messes up. He can also use Up-Tilt -> Falling Up-Air a few times to build percent, though it seems to be easily escapable for Toon Link's light weight. And watch your rolls/air-dodges. Similar to Sheik's D-throw to 50/50 Up-air/Up-B, Greninja can pull off something similar with his Side-B if he can read an air-dodge or roll.

Be sure to respect Greninja's Up-B as well. Not only can he use it to return to the stage from above you well, but while on stage, he can use it to deflect bombs and push you away. I was silly and used Up-B near the edge, and his Up-B pushed me off at the right time, forcing me into helpless and losing a stock. Don't be like me XD. Other then that, it can be used to edgeguard, but be aware that it won't push you away that far. I find you get pushed up very high, but you'll have used your Up-B, putting you in helpless and easily left open (Though having a bomb in hand can refresh your Up-B). And respect his Down-B counter. he can appear from multiple directions, so be ready to block or dodge. Plus, he leaves behind a substitute doll or piece of wood, which blocks projectiles. Get rid of that before it interrupts you.

In terms of weaknesses, Greninja has a useful but slow grab. Although he can use Down and Up-throw for combo's and KOing respectively, it comes out on Frame 14, the 4th slowest grab including tetherer's, even slower then us (Though his Dash Grab is Frame 9, much faster but more punishable). And as mentioned before, he has to fully commit to everything he does. Toon Link can throw projectiles but stay back if he chooses, whereas Greninja, while approaching, MUST commit to his N-air or it won't work. This makes him a little more predictable, and less-then-perfect Greninja's will be easier to punish, so keep that in mind.

Other then that, respect his Smash's for their power and disjointed hitbox's, especially Up-Smash which can cover ledge jumps and DJ's. Also forgot to mention, Greninja has a kill confirm from D-throw into F-air above 100%. He can also get F-air out of Dash Attack and D-tilt. Remember that. Best of luck.



Was this a good writeup? Let me know. I want to make better writeups like this so if you have constructive criticism for my post, PM me please. Other then that, if anyone has advice vs Link, I'd like to learn more about him, I found that matchup to be pretty hard personally (Looking at you Fox Is Openly Deceptive )

 

[Grandma Wilkins]

I sadly cannot speak for the new DLC characters as my 3DS is broken, so I can't play against them online for basic info, and I've only fought one Bayonetta at my locals (A Melee player who tried her in pools vs me). That was just one match but I feel like Toon Link wins that matchup due to her poor approach and frame data that's worse then even ours. As for Corrin, do you have replays? I can analyze then and give advice on both plays and what I see from the matchup.

However that's not what I'm here to talk about today. I promised a Greninja post and I'm delivering.



I fight a local Greninja occasionally, and our sets end up being very close between each other. I've learned a lot of what Greninja plays like, so I'm offering this advice to those who fight him.

Greninja in the neutral will mostly rely on one of two things. He can toss Shuriken's to catch you and space, or approach with N-air. For Shuriken's, the less charge on them, the farther they travel, so be aware of how Greninja uses them to interrupt space. In the air, Greninja floats after launching one, which extends his edgeguard and can trip up your aerial approach. When Greninja approaches, he commits fully to running in with N-air, which leads to many combo's, the most notable being his Footstool -> D-air lock combo. The timing for this is very strict, and can leave him open to punishes, so be sure to take advantage of him if he messes up. He can also use Up-Tilt -> Falling Up-Air a few times to build percent, though it seems to be easily escapable for Toon Link's light weight. And watch your rolls/air-dodges. Similar to Sheik's D-throw to 50/50 Up-air/Up-B, Greninja can pull off something similar with his Side-B if he can read an air-dodge or roll.

Be sure to respect Greninja's Up-B as well. Not only can he use it to return to the stage from above you well, but while on stage, he can use it to deflect bombs and push you away. I was silly and used Up-B near the edge, and his Up-B pushed me off at the right time, forcing me into helpless and losing a stock. Don't be like me XD. Other then that, it can be used to edgeguard, but be aware that it won't push you away that far. I find you get pushed up very high, but you'll have used your Up-B, putting you in helpless and easily left open (Though having a bomb in hand can refresh your Up-B). And respect his Down-B counter. he can appear from multiple directions, so be ready to block or dodge. Plus, he leaves behind a substitute doll or piece of wood, which blocks projectiles. Get rid of that before it interrupts you.

In terms of weaknesses, Greninja has a useful but slow grab. Although he can use Down and Up-throw for combo's and KOing respectively, it comes out on Frame 14, the 4th slowest grab including tetherer's, even slower then us (Though his Dash Grab is Frame 9, much faster but more punishable). And as mentioned before, he has to fully commit to everything he does. Toon Link can throw projectiles but stay back if he chooses, whereas Greninja, while approaching, MUST commit to his N-air or it won't work. This makes him a little more predictable, and less-then-perfect Greninja's will be easier to punish, so keep that in mind.

Other then that, respect his Smash's for their power and disjointed hitbox's, especially Up-Smash which can cover ledge jumps and DJ's. Also forgot to mention, Greninja has a kill confirm from D-throw into F-air above 100%. He can also get F-air out of Dash Attack and D-tilt. Remember that. Best of luck.



Was this a good writeup? Let me know. I want to make better writeups like this so if you have constructive criticism for my post, PM me please. Other then that, if anyone has advice vs Link, I'd like to learn more about him, I found that matchup to be pretty hard personally (Looking at you Fox Is Openly Deceptive )

http://smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-video-database.430893/ Here is a link for Corrin replays and the replays of many other characters

I agree that the matchup is in our favor against Bayonetta, as we make it very tough for her to approach. Our floatiness also helps us escape many combos, the centerpiece of her game. Bayonetta also has some trouble killing Toon Link, as back air is really her only viable option, unless Bayonetta does Bayonetta things. Toon Link can also edgeguard pretty well through bombs and boomerang.

That was a great writeup on Greninja though.

 

[Moobussir]

http://smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-video-database.430893/ Here is a link for Corrin replays and the replays of many other characters

I agree that the matchup is in our favor against Bayonetta, as we make it very tough for her to approach. Our floatiness also helps us escape many combos, the centerpiece of her game. Bayonetta also has some trouble killing Toon Link, as back air is really her only viable option, unless Bayonetta does Bayonetta things. Toon Link can also edgeguard pretty well through bombs and boomerang.

That was a great writeup on Greninja though.

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks Bayo isn't too tough for us. And floatiness justifies it well. Thanks for confirming XD.

Do you think I should try to compress the writing a bit, or is that length good?

(Maybe PM is better for this idk)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Other then that, if anyone has advice vs Link, I'd like to learn more about him, I found that matchup to be pretty hard personally (Looking at you Fox Is Openly Deceptive )

I would have replied sooner but I forgot about it, then I remembered, then I forgot again, but then, I forgot again.

I don't normally do this sort of thing but I'll give it a go.

Speaking more generally:
I think Link is a tough MU for Toon, but at top level it's still barely in Toon's favour. With Toon in general you have to play so perfectly to avoid unnecessary damage / dying too early, and this is rarely going to be more true than in this MU. It's hard to explain, but Link's whole character design tends toward forcing the opponent to run into his attacks where you'll receive unnecessary damage and die too early. His slower mobility, long range, huge disjoints, hitboxes that cover large areas, half-decent projectile game with holes in it to allow people to get through, and punishable laggy moves, all both encourage and punish the opponent rushing in. Link wants you to rush in blindly; his own approaches aren't that strong, and he doesn't play the footsies game very well either. He wants you to underestimate him, to think you can rush him down, to approach yourself, because while often it will work and you will get in and rack up damage, it is in these moments that he will also be getting most of his damage and kill confirms. What you want to do is add in a healthy dose of 'bait and punish' to compliment your rush-down game. It's simple really; Link's moves are on the slower side, so when you bait and punish his moves he begins to feel less confident about just throwing them out to counter any potential rush-downs, and then as soon as you get him second guessing throwing out his attacks, your rush-down becomes more viable. So you want to be constantly monitoring how the opponent is feeling.

Grab-game:
Link has a really good grab game and he'll tend to want to use it to rack up damage. Luckily it doesn't work very well on Toon if you know what to do. The following is taken from a post I made that looked at what follow-ups Link has guaranteed out of his D-throw on all characters.

"0%: The only way for Toon to avoid U-tilt is to DJ then airdodge. If Toon tries to only DJ, Utilt will hit. If Toon tries to just airdodge Link will be able to punish the landing lag with another U-tilt or even a D-smash among other things.

10%: Toon will only be able to escape U-tilt by DIing behind Link and DJing then immediately airdodging. If Toon just airdodges into the ground, then we'll be able to punish with an U-smash or turn around U-smash depending on DI (though grounded Up-B will cover everything).

20%: U-tilt is only unavoidable if Toon DI's behind Link and airdodges, but then we can punish even with an unavoidable turn around re-grab or an F-smash.

30%: U-tilt is unavoidable.

40%: U-tilt can be avoided by simply DIing away in front or behind Link.

50%: U-tilt is out of range.

70%: You may as well start doing FH U-airs from this point onwards. They can be airdodged though, but then you can catch Toon before he lands when airdodge runs out.

Beyond, as above."

If the Link isn't super familiar with my research, they will attempt U-smashes, FH Nairs, Aerial Up-Bs, or just wait to punish an airdodge into the ground as well, but none of these should work on you if you react properly. In general, you want to DI the D-throw behind Link at low to medium percents, then DI in front of him at medium to high percents. At low percents it's up to you if you want to attempt to DJ and immediately airdodge to escape, but keep in mind that you must be pretty much frame perfect, and if you fail you could be without your DJ. Either way you should be attempting a DJ behind if he's going for anything other than U-tilts. If you avoid something in this way, it is very punishable.

As a fellow tether grabber, you should know that the best way to avoid a tether grab is to make the opponent afraid to attempt grab in the first place by maintaining good movement and mixing up your landings, etc.

Jab Game:
Many Link's will try to combo out of Jab 2. This is fraudulent and should never work. The very moment you see a Link Jab you, you should be mashing one of two things just in case he doesn't finish with Jab 3. The first option you should be going for is to DJ away. This will easily and completely avoid all possible immediate punishes as well as punishes like FH Fair, even if you are late. If the Link is half decent he can attempt to read your DJ away by dashing to follow you and attempting to cover your landing options (keep this in mind for stage-picks), but at least in this situation you actually have options instead of doing nothing and taking a meaty hit. The other option is to mash Nair. Nair will hit Link if he does anything after Jab 2 other than shield, dodge/roll, or do Jab 3. If Link holds shield it will not power-shield and you will have options to avoid all possible punishes. Obviously if you're holding a Bomb, you will favour the former option and then throw the bomb down immediately or use it to cover your landing.

Dropkick:
Many Link's will land with the first hit of Bair then without turning around attempt an U-tilt. In most cases this is fraudulent and should never work. Unfortunately Toon isn't one of the characters who can just hold shield to avoid U-tilt every time, so in order to avoid it you'll have to DJ away and immediately airdodge. Of course they may actually turn around first, in which case it is always unavoidable. This will always work the same regardless of your percent because Bair1 has set knockback.

F-tilt:
A lot of people don't seem to appreciate this, but Link's F-tilt is legit, like, MK's F-smash legit. It has very little cool-down lag and huge shield-stun, so combined with its massive range, it will pretty much always be safe on hit. Don't bother trying to rush in and punish it if you take it on your shield. To give you an idea, if you're holding a bomb, take F-tilt on your shield (non-powershield) at the hilt of the sword as he's swinging it down, Link is actually able to shield the bomb if you attempt to punish his F-tilt with a bomb throw OoS.

Soft throw bombs:
Something you'll likely encounter if you ever verse a decent Link is this little AT. All you need to know about it is that Link is able to throw bombs such that they land on the ground without exploding on impact. The strength of this tech, surprisingly, lies more in its ability to distract you than anything else. You're actually better off just ignoring it. The blast radius is fairly small. You can throw it back at him immediately if you want but only if the Link threw it immediately after pulling it out, otherwise note that Link's bomb fuse timer is shorter than your own. Don't panic and approach him just because there's a bomb at your feet. Don't completely back off and ease up the projectile pressure just to wait out the bomb timer.

Neutral game-plan:
I spoke about this a bit earlier when talking about the MU in general, but in neutral you want to be playing a good footsies game. Stay out of his range, bait out Link's moves that are thrown out to cover your potential approach and punish them with anything that will reach him in time. You don't have to worry too much about staying just outside of his range because Link doesn't really have any burst options to punish lag from a distance. If you're being out-spammed, spam better. The aim isn't necessarily to hit him with a projectile and then get a confirm off of it (though this would be ideal), the aim is simply to aid in your own approach; e.g. even if you can get him so that he is pinned down by projectiles and forced to turtle up in his shield, that's fine because his options for countering approaches at this point become limited and you will be able to more safely break through his zoning game; or perhaps by faking an approach you will be able to make him react by using a laggy option (i.e. pretty much every option he has OoS), which is as good as an invitation to approach. Having said that, while Toon can approach him and you obviously will want to approach to rack up real damage, keep in mind that there's no need to force it until he's not expecting it. The aim above all else is to avoid that unnecessary damage and those early deaths.

Recovering:
Link is one of the better characters at harassing people as they're recovering. As for whether the Link you're versing will actually take advantage of this and jump off-stage, it's very opponent dependent. Avoid Fair at all costs; it will outright kill you and you cannot challenge it. Nair and Bair can go either way; if you have a bomb and get hit by them, you'll probably still recover the next time with the double Up-B. Be sure to mix-up your tether reel-in timings; e.g. F-tilt can hit deceptively far below the ledge, so while slow initially, it can hit that two frame vulnerability as you grab the ledge and then it becomes pretty much impossible to punish, so Link gets to attempt this for free. If you need to get hit by Dair, you're better doing so immediately after the initial spike hitbox; it will send you up and won't kill unless you get stage-spiked, which is easy enough to see coming depending on which side Link hits you on. If you leave it too late he can combo out of the late hit of Dair with a DJ aerial if you don't DI away. So yes, in the right circumstances, I am actually advocating for deliberately recovering into the Dair as opposed to putting it off then either being too far away to recover or getting hit by a later part of Dair anyway. What matters most is that you recover at all.

Edge guarding:
Many Links will attempt to return on-stage from the ledge with a DJ Fair. This is for a good reason. If they see you standing at the edge with your shield up, not only is there no way for you to interrupt both hits hitting your shield, not only will it do huge shield damage, potentially shield-poke you or break your shield, but if Link does it in such a way that he lands soon after, there is nothing you can do, nothing, to get a guaranteed punish. In summary then, do not bother attempting to stop Link from returning with ledge hop Fair by holding shield. If you're feeling ballsy and you know he's going to try it, you can quickly hit Link before Fair comes out (e.g. with D-tilt), which will potentially leave him off-stage without a DJ. Otherwise you can dash away from him to avoid both hits (note that the second hit has more range) then punish the lag, but be quick about it because Link has low landing lag. Something like a dash pivot F-tilt/smash should work fine.


I may add more later.

 

[Moobussir]

I can attest to the shield damage that both hits of F-air do to your shield. But can you really not punish it? I can imagine if he goes for Jab or even F-Tilt or Grab, it would be close, but wouldn't we have some sort of frame advantage even if he does have F-air landing lag? Say, if we Grab OoS.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I can attest to the shield damage that both hits of F-air do to your shield. But can you really not punish it? I can imagine if he goes for Jab or even F-Tilt or Grab, it would be close, but wouldn't we have some sort of frame advantage even if he does have F-air landing lag? Say, if we Grab OoS.

The point I made was simply that there is nothing you can do to get a guaranteed punish. Link has one of the best frame advantages on his landing aerials out of all characters due to the big damage they do combined with his low landing lag. In the case of Fair, having long range and great shield-push helps too as it puts most OoS options out of the picture. What stops him from being broken in this regard is having no quick grounded move to follow up with, but that doesn't mean he can't benefit by being safe. In particular, as far as the MU between Link and Toon is concerned, i.e. Toon who has no quick OoS options, Link's own slower grounded options used after landing all of a sudden become very viable.

Both hits of Fair are very safe, but the second hit of Fair, when it hits their shield on the last airborne frame, will give the opponent only a +3 frame advantage if they use an OoS option (Link has a +4 frame advantage against shield-drop options). Now, consider that Link's spot dodge and roll give him invulnerability on frames 3 and 4 respectively. Consider also that Toon's Grab only starts to grab on frame 12. There's no way that Toon's Grab is going to connect in time. Granted, the Link won't be landing the second hit of Fair perfectly on the last airborne frame every time, so you could add on say another 3 frames, but that still won't be enough. And that's not even considering the fact that Toon won't necessarily be close enough to Link after having Fair hit his shield unless you're initially standing in shield right on the edge, so Toon's Grab may be grabbing on e.g. frame 15 depending on the distance between them. And let's also not forget Link's 7 frame Jab, which becomes a real option at this kind of distance even if the Link didn't land the Fair perfectly close to the ground.
The point is, Toon's Grab OoS isn't a guaranteed punish, and if you miss it you're in lag near the edge with a depleted shield against Link. -which is bad. That's why I advised you not to try beat Link's ledge hop Fair with your shield.

 

[Tico21]

I'm having alot of trouble with the Fox match up. I Honestly feel like it's impossible if the fox knows what he's doing. His rush down is crazy, i cant land, and projectiles are harder to use with shine. I know up tilt combos really well but fox is so fast that if i miss an uptilt he can punish. And forget about grabbing, fox is too fast and punishes too hard to even attempt to grab. My only hope is to get fox off stage...... easier said then done. Basically I'm looking for any tips that could help me win the neutral and avoid all the nasty things he does to my poor tink

 

[Grandma Wilkins]

I'm having alot of trouble with the Fox match up. I Honestly feel like it's impossible if the fox knows what he's doing. His rush down is crazy, i cant land, and projectiles are harder to use with shine. I know up tilt combos really well but fox is so fast that if i miss an uptilt he can punish. And forget about grabbing, fox is too fast and punishes too hard to even attempt to grab. My only hope is to get fox off stage...... easier said then done. Basically I'm looking for any tips that could help me win the neutral and avoid all the nasty things he does to my poor tink

A lot of what you are saying are problems a lot of toon links have. For the rush down part, I would recommend using your shield defensively, as fox's throws are even worse than ours, but pummels can rack up a lot of damage. For landing, a lot of times against Fox it is just best to go to ledge, although the player will start covering this well after a couple times. Mixing up your fall speed could also let you land for free in some instances, as that might suprise the Fox. But when in doubt, you sometime just got to make it rain bombs when landing. Shine works very well against toon link, but it is VERY punishable. You can bait it out pretty well with a bomb throw up, and specifically a JCBT up. For killing, you can either bait out shine with a bomb up throw followed by an usmash or pivot grab bthrow. Bomb confirms into fair work well, but they are harder to get than most characters.

And definitely check out the Fox matchup analysis on the first page.

 

[C0rvus]

So the Bowser matchup kinda sucks. It felt like I had to play super lame or get bodied. Also it legit felt like a losing matchup on battlefield, which sucks because there are 2 of them, and Dreamland is even better for him. With 1 ban, I'm ****ed.
From my set, I learned to not touch his shield or you get hit with whirling fortress. Just set up a zone, and possibly avoid platforms.

 

[Tico21]

A lot of what you are saying are problems a lot of toon links have. For the rush down part, I would recommend using your shield defensively, as fox's throws are even worse than ours, but pummels can rack up a lot of damage. For landing, a lot of times against Fox it is just best to go to ledge, although the player will start covering this well after a couple times. Mixing up your fall speed could also let you land for free in some instances, as that might suprise the Fox. But when in doubt, you sometime just got to make it rain bombs when landing. Shine works very well against toon link, but it is VERY punishable. You can bait it out pretty well with a bomb throw up, and specifically a JCBT up. For killing, you can either bait out shine with a bomb up throw followed by an usmash or pivot grab bthrow. Bomb confirms into fair work well, but they are harder to get than most characters.

And definitely check out the Fox matchup analysis on the first page.

Is shine really THAT punishable? If i JCBT up and they shine, is there a guaranteed punish? I usually try to bait shine with a rar bomb recatch with nair but they can still get another shine in. But i can see how JCBT up could lead to a quicker punish

 

[Tico21]

So the Bowser matchup kinda sucks. It felt like I had to play super lame or get bodied. Also it legit felt like a losing matchup on battlefield, which sucks because there are 2 of them, and Dreamland is even better for him. With 1 ban, I'm ****ed.
From my set, I learned to not touch his shield or you get hit with whirling fortress. Just set up a zone, and possibly avoid platforms.

I used to love the bowser match up, but it has gotten harder for sure. But it's still the same idea, camp him out. Sure it's "lame" but it gets the job done. It's the life we chose as toon link mains. I find that that the tink basics make it hard for bowser. zair, nair, and projectiles make it really hard for bowser to get his grabs. I really feel that in this match up patience is the key, even more so than normal.

 

[Grandma Wilkins]

Is shine really THAT punishable? If i JCBT up and they shine, is there a guaranteed punish? I usually try to bait shine with a rar bomb recatch with nair but they can still get another shine in. But i can see how JCBT up could lead to a quicker punish

The Fox may be able to get out of shine in time after the throw up if you are far enough away, but a lot of the time the Fox will be caught so off guard that even if he can, he might not due to reaction time. Shine is extremely punishable, as it has to be active for at least 40 frames, and I believe it takes a couple more frames to drop it after you release. Combined with Tink's speed and quick usmash, 9 times out of 10 will you be able to punish.

 

[Treveen]

I main Pit but I am picking up Toon Link as a secondary because he seems to cover a great deal of Pit's bad MUs. I'd like to know how well Toon Link does against Meta Knight

 

[Moobussir]

I main Pit but I am picking up Toon Link as a secondary because he seems to cover a great deal of Pit's bad MUs. I'd like to know how well Toon Link does against Meta Knight

I haven't fought a lot of Meta Knights, but from the ones I have fought, I'll offer as moderate an overview as I can.

Meta Knight struggles moderately to get in. His combo's usually rely on him getting his Dash Attack or Dash Grab first. This makes him a bit predictable in approach, so projectiles do a good job in keeping him away. Bomb beats Dash Attack in most scenario's so he'll be eating punishes frequently if he uses it a lot. Toon Link does prefer attacking from the air, since he has much better mobility, though Meta Knight will be on the hunt for an opening to approach with anything, even Up-air. However, Meta Knight's aerials are fairly laggy so they're unsafe if missed. Make sure to punish him for it.

Meta Knight's body is a bit awkward; he's really short so landing grounded hits is tricky, and his light weight makes combo's a bit tricky to land as well, though Toon Link's powerful aerials and smash's can KO him early as a result. His slow air speed makes edgeguarding rather easy, especially since his recovery is fairly predictable, laggy and exploitable. On the other hand, it's very easy for us to recover, since all we need to do is airdodge to avoid an attack, then hookshot and snap to the ledge. It's very difficult for Meta Knight to beat that.

At the same time...Meta Knight's infamous combo (Is there a name for it? There should be) is of course very powerful and can KO us fairly well, though due to our light weight, we tend to fall out of Shuttle Loop quite frequently. Your projectile game needs to be on POINT, since Meta Knight is simply going to camp out in his shield until he sees the slightest opening, and then in comes the Dash Attack. It's a polarizing matchup, and as many can probably attest, a very tense one as Meta Knight can seal any stock very quickly thanks to his combo, but as long as Toon Link is on point and can outspeed Meta Knight's mind, he can win.

This was more of a matchup analysis then an overview, but I hope the info was helpful regardless.

 

[Halfy]

I haven't fought a lot of Meta Knights, but from the ones I have fought, I'll offer as moderate an overview as I can.

Meta Knight struggles moderately to get in. His combo's usually rely on him getting his Dash Attack or Dash Grab first. This makes him a bit predictable in approach, so projectiles do a good job in keeping him away. Bomb beats Dash Attack in most scenario's so he'll be eating punishes frequently if he uses it a lot. Toon Link does prefer attacking from the air, since he has much better mobility, though Meta Knight will be on the hunt for an opening to approach with anything, even Up-air. However, Meta Knight's aerials are fairly laggy so they're unsafe if missed. Make sure to punish him for it.

Meta Knight's body is a bit awkward; he's really short so landing grounded hits is tricky, and his light weight makes combo's a bit tricky to land as well, though Toon Link's powerful aerials and smash's can KO him early as a result. His slow air speed makes edgeguarding rather easy, especially since his recovery is fairly predictable, laggy and exploitable. On the other hand, it's very easy for us to recover, since all we need to do is airdodge to avoid an attack, then hookshot and snap to the ledge. It's very difficult for Meta Knight to beat that.

At the same time...Meta Knight's infamous combo (Is there a name for it? There should be) is of course very powerful and can KO us fairly well, though due to our light weight, we tend to fall out of Shuttle Loop quite frequently. Your projectile game needs to be on POINT, since Meta Knight is simply going to camp out in his shield until he sees the slightest opening, and then in comes the Dash Attack. It's a polarizing matchup, and as many can probably attest, a very tense one as Meta Knight can seal any stock very quickly thanks to his combo, but as long as Toon Link is on point and can outspeed Meta Knight's mind, he can win.

This was more of a matchup analysis then an overview, but I hope the info was helpful regardless.

Actually, no.

One of my friends is a meta knight main and I play against him all the time, and well...
Meta Knight is one of, if not the best edgeguarder in the game. It is not necessary at all to have good air speed, he can just camp near the ledge and edgeguard us. He can use his many jumps and long lasting aerials to catch us while we zip to the ledge with tether, and he can go really low or really high to cover any type of recovery. All of his aerials are very fast and can eat our jumps, and nair especially is good at catching our tethers. Keep in mind that toon link's back side DOES NOT have a hitbox while he is recovering with up B. You NEED to know how to tech to survive offstage and make it back to the stage.

Even if you do make it to the ledge, he has some crazy things that cover many options. Neutral B covers neutral getup, jump, and ledge attack because he goes above the hitbox. It will also cover dj aerials unless you do not move forwards while doing them, which will definitely feel weird at first but is probably one of our best options. Fsmash can outrange our getup attack, and downsmash can cover both neutral getup and roll. If he reads your jump off of ledge, that can start an up air string which will probably lead into a shuttle loop. Fsmash can also cover below the ledge, so you aren't even safe staying on the ledge.

To edgeguard MK, it will take specific practice. Knowing exactly the way to space a fair so it outranges drill rush is very difficult, and also essential. Drill rush cancels out boomerang and arrow, and will also hit the bomb in the way that it gives him ownership of it and it passes through him without exploding. If you misspace the fair, you may find yourself getting edgeguarded at very low percents and even losing the stock. Up air has enough range to hit MK through drill rush, but the odds are that you wont be that low with a jump left to recover after the up air, which will likely put him back onstage anyway. Shuttle loop is so fast that you probably won't be able to hit him out of it, but if they miss the sweetspot you can stagespike MK since they probably will not be prepared to tech out of shuttle loop.

Onstage, however, we do beat meta knight. We outspeed him in the air, so you should focus on aerials instead of grounded attacks.

 

[Moobussir]

Been absent for a while, but recently I've been wondering about the Sheik matchup. Yes, her needles and kill setups were drastically nerfed, but she's still very hard to combat. Is there anything I should keep in mind going into a match vs Sheik?

 

[Grandma Wilkins]

Due to Shiek's still lagless (I think) fair and nair, you have to play very safe due to Tink's poor frame data. It's probably best to camp her out aerially and then kill with bomb setups.

 

[ILJ]

Vs sheik I usually look for up tilt as an anti air to fair. If you master it, you can beat fair. I always have a bomb in hand and play close to mid range. If you play from a distance she will needle camp you.

 

[Fluorescent]

Up tilt is sooo good against Sheik if you can land it on her as it deals tons of damage. Playing safe against Sheik is essential for Toon Link as she has waaay better options than you do. Your punishes can however hurt her very well and since she's a fast faller, your Bomb > F-air is most of the time guaranteed at high percents. So play safe and punish accordingly, don't get too reckless as she still has a lot of percent% raking moves against you.

 

[oBebi]

I've searched on here, but there is practically no talk of post-patch Mewtwo. Playing mid-range is the worst spot for us in this MU imo, there we have to respect: its disjointed sword as a tail, the great dash attack, Shadow Ball and the Reflect. Longer range seems better but still unfavorable, I usually stay here if I'm trying to catch up on damage, usually trying to mixup my bomb throws and boomerang, trying not to commit to anything because of how quick it can close the distance.

I've found the moderate success playing more aggressively to bait mistakes as opposed to staying out of reach with projectiles to try and force an approach. I think it's due to Mewtwo having poor OoS options, questionable frame data, weird hitboxes sometimes; so even though we don't have the quickest attacks it's still very possible to pressure it in shield. Specific things that have been giving me trouble are: DI'ing out of its throw options, U-air, landing in general, and Reflect. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Fluorescent]

I've searched on here, but there is practically no talk of post-patch Mewtwo. Playing mid-range is the worst spot for us in this MU imo, there we have to respect: its disjointed sword as a tail, the great dash attack, Shadow Ball and the Reflect. Longer range seems better but still unfavorable, I usually stay here if I'm trying to catch up on damage, usually trying to mixup my bomb throws and boomerang, trying not to commit to anything because of how quick it can close the distance.

I've found the moderate success playing more aggressively to bait mistakes as opposed to staying out of reach with projectiles to try and force an approach. I think it's due to Mewtwo having poor OoS options, questionable frame data, weird hitboxes sometimes; so even though we don't have the quickest attacks it's still very possible to pressure it in shield. Specific things that have been giving me trouble are: DI'ing out of its throw options, U-air, landing in general, and Reflect. Any advice would be appreciated.

Mewtwo just seems to be better than us in many aspects. Honestly, the most used tactics as Mewtwo is to charge shadow ball and pressure the opponent if it hits their shield (as it does huge shield damage). This is what I see as the most optimal play for Mewtwo as it pressures the opponent into potentially making unsafe options. For Toon Link, Di'ing out of Mewtwo's throws would be simple except for his D-throw and F-throw. I've seen some success by tilting the control stick downwards away from Mewtwo being less prone in getting hit but for D-throw I feel is pretty much guaranteed for him as he just needs to time it right. In mid-high percents however, I think by DI'ing away you should be safe from any of his attacks.

I could simple say that you can just air dodge the hit from U-air but you should mix it up sometimes, it might be better for you to hit him with an N-air if you feel he's waiting for an air dodge. Also, most Mewtwo's I see like to punish with dash attack as it comes out relatively fast and does good damage and sends us in angle where we can't punish him. If he's not letting you land back on stage, you need to somehow bait him into hitting one of our aerial's, presumably F-air, U-air, B-air.

Confusion is really INSANE move against us. The grab hitbox of the move comes out on frame 12 and ends on frame 15. The reflector part of the move starts on frame 12 and ends on frame 35. Mewtwo can react 10 frames after the reflector portion of the move (frame 45). The problem here is that our projectiles are too slow sometimes to hit Mewtwo in that 10 frame window as the hitbox of it is relatively big often either reflecting our projectiles or Mewtwo already being in shield. In my advice, it's best to predict that he will input F-special and punish it with the most fastest way possible. Presumably a jab or a grab (just don't be standing near him on the active frames of his grab hitbox).

 

[Moobussir]

I've searched on here, but there is practically no talk of post-patch Mewtwo. Playing mid-range is the worst spot for us in this MU imo, there we have to respect: its disjointed sword as a tail, the great dash attack, Shadow Ball and the Reflect. Longer range seems better but still unfavorable, I usually stay here if I'm trying to catch up on damage, usually trying to mixup my bomb throws and boomerang, trying not to commit to anything because of how quick it can close the distance.

I've found the moderate success playing more aggressively to bait mistakes as opposed to staying out of reach with projectiles to try and force an approach. I think it's due to Mewtwo having poor OoS options, questionable frame data, weird hitboxes sometimes; so even though we don't have the quickest attacks it's still very possible to pressure it in shield. Specific things that have been giving me trouble are: DI'ing out of its throw options, U-air, landing in general, and Reflect. Any advice would be appreciated.

This might sound crazy, but vs his Up-air, if you're really high, Dair might be a good option. Mewtwo's floaty 2nd jump makes it so even if you whiff, it'll take him a really long time to begin his fast fall. If you're talking at a mid-height or if he's horizontal for you, I'm not sure.

I can't provide much advice above that though, I have barely played the game since even 1.1.4 since my 3DS is broke, sorry.

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-toon-link.436022/

The M2 board is looking at Tink next, we would appreciate any thoughts or opinions you all have.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Hmmm... I honestly think that even a great Bowser will lose to a decent Toon Link. The projectiles and zair can deal quick damage which will pile up. The only problem with Toon Link is that he has trouble killing Bowser. I feel the best method is the Bomb to Fair kill confirm. Bowser has insane vertical endurance and is dangerous to gimp, so the kill confirm is the best way. Mewtwo is interesting because Confusion can reflect Boomerang and Arrows, but Bombs just fall to the ground like Link's Z-Dropped ones. We could work this to our advantage. Amusingly, Hero's Shield can block Shadow Ball even fully charged. Disable is dangerous, as Mewtwo is a glass cannon, but Zair stops this problem because a short hop Zair will most likely hit him. Overall I feel the best killing option is back throw.

 

[Halfy]

Hmmm... I honestly think that even a great Bowser will lose to a decent Toon Link. The projectiles and zair can deal quick damage which will pile up. The only problem with Toon Link is that he has trouble killing Bowser. I feel the best method is the Bomb to Fair kill confirm. Bowser has insane vertical endurance and is dangerous to gimp, so the kill confirm is the best way. Mewtwo is interesting because Confusion can reflect Boomerang and Arrows, but Bombs just fall to the ground like Link's Z-Dropped ones. We could work this to our advantage. Amusingly, Hero's Shield can block Shadow Ball even fully charged. Disable is dangerous, as Mewtwo is a glass cannon, but Zair stops this problem because a short hop Zair will most likely hit him. Overall I feel the best killing option is back throw.

I've found upsmash to kill the most reliably against mewtwo

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I've found upsmash to kill the most reliably against mewtwo

That too, it's just that (Obviously), his tether grab has more range than Up Smash, so you don't have to worry about Disable

 

[Tico21]

Any advice for the Corrin match up? Her side b destorys my life, and landing is extremely hard.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Any advice for the Corrin match up? Her side b destorys my life, and landing is extremely hard.

It is impossible to punish side B through a physical attack. Shield and use Hero's Bow or Boomerang. Their recovery is predictable, so you can use Bombs to stop it, Dair if you have more stocks than your opponent. You can use Hero's Sheid to block Neutral B. Be wary for the counter. Zair will help you in that regard. Be wary of Forward Smash's range. Punish with a Hero's Bow fully charged. Their dash attack is a joke. Just shield it and punish. JCGT (Jump Cancel Glide Toss) is very good on Corrin, due to them being middleweight and tall.

 

[Halfy]

while on the topic of corrin, the toon link discord recently had a crew battle against the corrins, the vod is here if you want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV_zcis0z7c
could help with researching the MU, might show what works and what doesn't

 

[TsarofToon]

Welp, time to dive into something I have never even dared to worry about before: Match-ups. I never really cared about them till now, so lets get started. So, I haven't seen much about the DLC characters in this thread, yet there are some characters specifically I would like to know about. They are:and. These are all characters I have had a hard time fighting against with, and would really like to know how to play against them. I will try my hardest to contribute to my own learning as well, but if there are any comments before this one on the match-ups i would like to know about them. Thanks for your help in advance my fellow Smash Brothers (Or Sisters)
-TsarofToon

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Welp, time to dive into something I have never even dared to worry about before: Match-ups. I never really cared about them till now, so lets get started. So, I haven't seen much about the DLC characters in this thread, yet there are some characters specifically I would like to know about. They are:and. These are all characters I have had a hard time fighting against with, and would really like to know how to play against them. I will try my hardest to contribute to my own learning as well, but if there are any comments before this one on the match-ups i would like to know about them. Thanks for your help in advance my fellow Smash Brothers (Or Sisters)
-TsarofToon

I am a bit busy right now, so I'll just cover the easier matchups
-DK is my favourite matchup in the game. He always gets hit by bombs and Zairs, he is easy to get an up-tilt string, and I feel as if he doesn't have the fear factor that Bowser does.
-Jigglypuff is a very easy matchup. Use your Zair so she might go the ground. She often gets hit by bombs and her launch angle is predictable because she is light. Boomerang shuts her aerial capabilities very fast.
-Kirby is like a mix between the last two. Use Zair to keep him on the ground, and bombs and u-tilt strings for easy damage. He often gets hit by Forward air, so try to do Bomb-Fair to kill him at mid%.
-Ryu Very easy. Watch out for his "Strong" attacks. They are dangerous. He often gets juggled and bombs work wonders on him. Use Spin Attack when he uses focus attack.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Welp, time to dive into something I have never even dared to worry about before: Match-ups. I never really cared about them till now, so lets get started. So, I haven't seen much about the DLC characters in this thread, yet there are some characters specifically I would like to know about. They are:and. These are all characters I have had a hard time fighting against with, and would really like to know how to play against them. I will try my hardest to contribute to my own learning as well, but if there are any comments before this one on the match-ups i would like to know about them. Thanks for your help in advance my fellow Smash Brothers (Or Sisters)
-TsarofToon

Okay, now I can add more
Even Matchups:
Mewtwo: I'd say Toon Link has a very very slight advantage in this, but even overall. On Mewtwo's side, he can kill Tink pretty early and can use Confusion to reflect Hero's Bow and Boomerang. On Toon Link's side:He can also kill Mewtwo easily, due to his weight and he cannot Confuse Bombs, they just fall to the ground like Link's Z-Dropped ones. He can avoid Mewtwo comboing him because he is small and light. Toon Link's Uair is very effective against Mewtwo. Zair disrupts him and Back Throw can kill him.
Lucas-On Lucas's side, he, unlike Mewtwo, can combo Toon Link effectively. He can use PK fire to space Toon Link and Zair doesn't do much to him. He also has a Zair of his own. Toon Link is easily gimped, and Lucas has two spikes. On Toon Links side, he can kill Lucas before Lucas can kill him most of the time, Lucas's PK Magnet cannot absorb any of his projectiles. He can get rid of PK thunder with one Arrow, easily gimping Lucas.
Bayonetta:Yeah. You're pretty important in this game if you can hold your own against Bayonetta. On her side, like with most characters, she can 0-Death Toon Link. That's really all she has, but it's enough to make it even. On Toon Links side, he has little trouble killing Bayonetta, can escape 0-Death by Suicide Bombing (Holding on to a Bomb until detonation), he has 3 projectiles which stop Witch Twist, and can prevent getting Witch Timed, and unlike Bayonetta, his projectiles are not completely ass. Zair is pretty effective. I'd recommend you use Hero's Bow when she does Witch Twist, as they clank.
Villager: They can camp eachother equally. Fighting Up Close they are pretty even, and they both have great B-Throws. The definition of an even matchup. No proper advice, just try to outplay them.
Hard Matchups:
Cloud. The easiest "Hard" matchup. Cloud can stop all projectiles with Blade Beam, and Limit Break can kill very early. He completely outranges Toon Link and can juggle Toon Link very easily. On Toon Links side, he can use Zair effectively, Back Throw kills easily due to Clouds recovery, and he get's u-Tilted very easily

Roy: Despite not having a projectile, Roy can destroy Toon Link due to his Kill power. He can juggle and combo him easily and outranges Toon Link. Tinks advantages are the same as his advantages with Cloud, plus Roy is vulnerable to Bomb setups.

Pikachu:He can use Quick Attack to avoid projectiles, he has a (Vertically) gimping projectile, amd can avoid projectiles and grabs by crouching. Toon Link can kill early with B-Throw, has the speed to keep up with Pikachu, and Hero's Bow is pretty effective as well as Boomerang
Shulk.:Toon Link can basically destroy the use of Shield and Buster due to projectiles. Be wary of Speed. Like every character in the game, BackSlash is useless. His range would still be better than Tinks, even if Toon Link had double the range that he current,y had. Hang back.
Corrin:The second hardest for Toon Link overall out of your list:a Side B is pretty much Unpunishable, getting hit by Neutral B has serious consequences, and Corrin has frame Data to match Toon Link. They are vulnerable to all of Tinks projectiles however. Bomb Setups especially. Play safe.

Rosalina and Luma. The absolute hardest matchup in the game for Toon Link. Gravitational Pull can take all the projectiles, and Toon Link dies to Uair very early. The main advice is get in there and deal as much damage as possible. Try getting rid of Luma, and a Back Throw will kill easliy

 

[TsarofToon]

Okay, now I can add more
Even Matchups:
Mewtwo: I'd say Toon Link has a very very slight advantage in this, but even overall. On Mewtwo's side, he can kill Tink pretty early and can use Confusion to reflect Hero's Bow and Boomerang. On Toon Link's side:He can also kill Mewtwo easily, due to his weight and he cannot Confuse Bombs, they just fall to the ground like Link's Z-Dropped ones. He can avoid Mewtwo comboing him because he is small and light. Toon Link's Uair is very effective against Mewtwo. Zair disrupts him and Back Throw can kill him.
Lucas-On Lucas's side, he, unlike Mewtwo, can combo Toon Link effectively. He can use PK fire to space Toon Link and Zair doesn't do much to him. He also has a Zair of his own. Toon Link is easily gimped, and Lucas has two spikes. On Toon Links side, he can kill Lucas before Lucas can kill him most of the time, Lucas's PK Magnet cannot absorb any of his projectiles. He can get rid of PK thunder with one Arrow, easily gimping Lucas.
Bayonetta:Yeah. You're pretty important in this game if you can hold your own against Bayonetta. On her side, like with most characters, she can 0-Death Toon Link. That's really all she has, but it's enough to make it even. On Toon Links side, he has little trouble killing Bayonetta, can escape 0-Death by Suicide Bombing (Holding on to a Bomb until detonation), he has 3 projectiles which stop Witch Twist, and can prevent getting Witch Timed, and unlike Bayonetta, his projectiles are not completely ***. Zair is pretty effective. I'd recommend you use Hero's Bow when she does Witch Twist, as they clank.
Villager: They can camp eachother equally. Fighting Up Close they are pretty even, and they both have great B-Throws. The definition of an even matchup. No proper advice, just try to outplay them.
Hard Matchups:
Cloud. The easiest "Hard" matchup. Cloud can stop all projectiles with Blade Beam, and Limit Break can kill very early. He completely outranges Toon Link and can juggle Toon Link very easily. On Toon Links side, he can use Zair effectively, Back Throw kills easily due to Clouds recovery, and he get's u-Tilted very easily

Roy: Despite not having a projectile, Roy can destroy Toon Link due to his Kill power. He can juggle and combo him easily and outranges Toon Link. Tinks advantages are the same as his advantages with Cloud, plus Roy is vulnerable to Bomb setups.

Pikachu:He can use Quick Attack to avoid projectiles, he has a (Vertically) gimping projectile, amd can avoid projectiles and grabs by crouching. Toon Link can kill early with B-Throw, has the speed to keep up with Pikachu, and Hero's Bow is pretty effective as well as Boomerang
Shulk.:Toon Link can basically destroy the use of Shield and Buster due to projectiles. Be wary of Speed. Like every character in the game, BackSlash is useless. His range would still be better than Tinks, even if Toon Link had double the range that he current,y had. Hang back.
Corrin:The second hardest for Toon Link overall out of your list:a Side B is pretty much Unpunishable, getting hit by Neutral B has serious consequences, and Corrin has frame Data to match Toon Link. They are vulnerable to all of Tinks projectiles however. Bomb Setups especially. Play safe.

Rosalina and Luma. The absolute hardest matchup in the game for Toon Link. Gravitational Pull can take all the projectiles, and Toon Link dies to Uair very early. The main advice is get in there and deal as much damage as possible. Try getting rid of Luma, and a Back Throw will kill easliy

Wow, thanks! I didn't excpet to get a response so quickly. This will definitely help me out. Ive been meaning to learn the matchups for a while, but I could never find the time to play Smash or study about it. (Well, I actually have a lot of time, but there is a Splatfest tommorow and I needed to practice) Thanks for your help!

-TsarofToon

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Wow, thanks! I didn't excpet to get a response so quickly. This will definitely help me out. Ive been meaning to learn the matchups for a while, but I could never find the time to play Smash or study about it. (Well, I actually have a lot of time, but there is a Splatfest tommorow and I needed to practice) Thanks for your help!

-TsarofToon

No problem

 

[Moobussir]

Eddie The Pacifist I unfortunately must disagree with some of your conclusions, and I will list why briefly.

EDIT Actually this is very long, my bad. Well, more info can't hurt, right?

Certain types of Ryu styles are almost impossible for us to counter. The ones I've heard are hardest are offensive Ryu's and ones that choose to land with aerials. you have very few oppourtunities to punish his lag, as there is virtually none. Kill confirms like bomb followups are quite reliable, but he's still quite heavy, and although his recovery is extremely predicable, ending his stock is harder then it seems.You'll need to build a ton of % before you can take him out. And the stages that benefit you for having large blast zones are also the ones that benefit Ryu for living very long, while short blast zones serve to kill you sooner, especially vertical blast zones. Up-Tilt combo's and confirms are useful, but our frame data is already bad, and Ryu's is absolutely incredible. I've heard of Up-Tilt strings being stopped by Shoryuken. That's how fast he is.Challenge with caution. (Oh, and you can beat all his projectiles with yours. Use Zair too. It's REALLY useful for a low-lag anti-projectile move. That goes for every opponent and projectile that does 13% and less.)

Mewtwo is one of Toon Link's hardest matchups by far. His Side-B can serve to condition our projectiles negatively, forcing an approach, while his disjoint and combo's, especially off stage, prove to be extremely overwhelming to deal with. He has several options to mix up his recovery, making it hard to cover them all. BFO, Bomb Fake-Out, will be extremely useful in trying to win the neutral, and Up-Tilt to Up-Air is extremely potent, but he's not to be underestimaed.

Donkey Kong is still very positive, but don't forget that closing his stock can sometimes be difficult, especially bomb-to-fair I find. Rage DK is scary, especially wih Ding-Dong. Don't hold back here.

Lucas, like Ness, CAN absorb projectiles. If one of them grabs a bomb, they can drop it and Down-B to heal a lot of % at a time. Ness does it better because he has no Z-air, but Lucas has it regardless. Bomb pressure is not free on Lucas. Lucas can clear our stock much easier then we can, since he has several reliable and powerful finishers, especially throws. His F-smash is a faster reflector that can mess you up too. It's not hard, but it's not free. Maybe 45-55

Villager, beware a pocketed Boomerang. It flows really well with his moveset. His aerial frames are also much better, though he also can struggle to beat shield like us. Use it, but be wary of a grab since his B-throw is stronger then ours.

Cloud. Bomb beats Blade Beam. And...that's it. His range and camp ability is simply way too powerful for us to deal with. Fight him mid-ranged, keep the pressure on close enough without him being able to overpower you physically, and far enough to not get pressured with Limit Charge. He's easy to gimp, especially without Limit. Ledge trump him HARD. He MUST recover to ledge without limit. A sweetspot F-tilt or F-smash will do the trick.

Roy may have good ground speed and lots of power but he really can't get in. Bomb him hard and bomb him often. Challenge his shield with bombs and grabs and he'll have no saving grace. Easy to win if you keep him out and beat his shield.

Pikachu, shield does wonders vs Quick Attack and Hero's Shield is funny to force an approach but his projectile is unpredictable. You can Hero's Shield it or shoot an arrow through it, and you also can't. Kill confirms all the way. He's light and very suspectible to them. Bomb to Fair. Up-Air on landing. Up-Tilt to Up-Air. Keep the pressure on him too. Oh and don't challenge Quick Attack with a hard commitment. You're usually not fast enough to do anything, unless he's in front of you and you can use Bomb OoS.

Shulk, there's a JMU that'll happen soon between them so we'll have more info then, but until then here's your info. His frame data is worse then ours but his range triples ours. Keep him out at all costs. His Fair, Nair and somewhat Bair are safe to poke with and again their range is crazy so be careful. And Shield Monado is EXTREMELY potent against us. With it up, Bomb to Fair does NOT work. Up-tilt to Up-air is NOT reliable to kill. And he keeps his kill power and rage with it up so he can still end us. Harass him from afar and don't get Buster'd or Speed'd too hard. Jump means he'll commit harder to his movements so punish accordingly. And stay the HECK away from Smash. We're already on the light side. It's not worth it for us to challenge him hard with it up.

Rosalina, all I can say is, cover her options as best you can. Beware Jab, it's her best move. Down-B is overrated and punishable if they use it repeatedly. Use BFO and Fair when you see it coming. Grounded Up-B is surprisingly effective, it separates them and can KO Luma easily. But even without Luma, our attrocious approach means we're in trouble. Experiment with JCBT Up to approach and go for grab, aerial, something. Understand her shield and avoidance patterns.

I'm not trying to one-up you or anything. I'm not the most matchup experienced myself. I just think you missed a few things or overlooked some matchups and I'm trying to add what I can. If you disagree let's keep discussing. TsarofToon you as well. (Btw you created your account on my birthday, just felt like saying that LOL)

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Eddie The Pacifist I unfortunately must disagree with some of your conclusions, and I will list why briefly.

EDIT Actually this is very long, my bad. Well, more info can't hurt, right?

Certain types of Ryu styles are almost impossible for us to counter. The ones I've heard are hardest are offensive Ryu's and ones that choose to land with aerials. you have very few oppourtunities to punish his lag, as there is virtually none. Kill confirms like bomb followups are quite reliable, but he's still quite heavy, and although his recovery is extremely predicable, ending his stock is harder then it seems.You'll need to build a ton of % before you can take him out. And the stages that benefit you for having large blast zones are also the ones that benefit Ryu for living very long, while short blast zones serve to kill you sooner, especially vertical blast zones. Up-Tilt combo's and confirms are useful, but our frame data is already bad, and Ryu's is absolutely incredible. I've heard of Up-Tilt strings being stopped by Shoryuken. That's how fast he is.Challenge with caution. (Oh, and you can beat all his projectiles with yours. Use Zair too. It's REALLY useful for a low-lag anti-projectile move. That goes for every opponent and projectile that does 13% and less.)

Mewtwo is one of Toon Link's hardest matchups by far. His Side-B can serve to condition our projectiles negatively, forcing an approach, while his disjoint and combo's, especially off stage, prove to be extremely overwhelming to deal with. He has several options to mix up his recovery, making it hard to cover them all. BFO, Bomb Fake-Out, will be extremely useful in trying to win the neutral, and Up-Tilt to Up-Air is extremely potent, but he's not to be underestimaed.

Donkey Kong is still very positive, but don't forget that closing his stock can sometimes be difficult, especially bomb-to-fair I find. Rage DK is scary, especially wih Ding-Dong. Don't hold back here.

Lucas, like Ness, CAN absorb projectiles. If one of them grabs a bomb, they can drop it and Down-B to heal a lot of % at a time. Ness does it better because he has no Z-air, but Lucas has it regardless. Bomb pressure is not free on Lucas. Lucas can clear our stock much easier then we can, since he has several reliable and powerful finishers, especially throws. His F-smash is a faster reflector that can mess you up too. It's not hard, but it's not free. Maybe 45-55

Villager, beware a pocketed Boomerang. It flows really well with his moveset. His aerial frames are also much better, though he also can struggle to beat shield like us. Use it, but be wary of a grab since his B-throw is stronger then ours.

Cloud. Bomb beats Blade Beam. And...that's it. His range and camp ability is simply way too powerful for us to deal with. Fight him mid-ranged, keep the pressure on close enough without him being able to overpower you physically, and far enough to not get pressured with Limit Charge. He's easy to gimp, especially without Limit. Ledge trump him HARD. He MUST recover to ledge without limit. A sweetspot F-tilt or F-smash will do the trick.

Roy may have good ground speed and lots of power but he really can't get in. Bomb him hard and bomb him often. Challenge his shield with bombs and grabs and he'll have no saving grace. Easy to win if you keep him out and beat his shield.

Pikachu, shield does wonders vs Quick Attack and Hero's Shield is funny to force an approach but his projectile is unpredictable. You can Hero's Shield it or shoot an arrow through it, and you also can't. Kill confirms all the way. He's light and very suspectible to them. Bomb to Fair. Up-Air on landing. Up-Tilt to Up-Air. Keep the pressure on him too. Oh and don't challenge Quick Attack with a hard commitment. You're usually not fast enough to do anything, unless he's in front of you and you can use Bomb OoS.

Shulk, there's a JMU that'll happen soon between them so we'll have more info then, but until then here's your info. His frame data is worse then ours but his range triples ours. Keep him out at all costs. His Fair, Nair and somewhat Bair are safe to poke with and again their range is crazy so be careful. And Shield Monado is EXTREMELY potent against us. With it up, Bomb to Fair does NOT work. Up-tilt to Up-air is NOT reliable to kill. And he keeps his kill power and rage with it up so he can still end us. Harass him from afar and don't get Buster'd or Speed'd too hard. Jump means he'll commit harder to his movements so punish accordingly. And stay the HECK away from Smash. We're already on the light side. It's not worth it for us to challenge him hard with it up.

Rosalina, all I can say is, cover her options as best you can. Beware Jab, it's her best move. Down-B is overrated and punishable if they use it repeatedly. Use BFO and Fair when you see it coming. Grounded Up-B is surprisingly effective, it separates them and can KO Luma easily. But even without Luma, our attrocious approach means we're in trouble. Experiment with JCBT Up to approach and go for grab, aerial, something. Understand her shield and avoidance patterns.

I'm not trying to one-up you or anything. I'm not the most matchup experienced myself. I just think you missed a few things or overlooked some matchups and I'm trying to add what I can. If you disagree let's keep discussing. TsarofToon you as well. (Btw you created your account on my birthday, just felt like saying that LOL)

I agree with you and realise my mistakes..., for the most part.
I seriously feel bad for any DK I go up against, it's compelety one-sided. I used to Secondary DK and still have him as a casual play character and My general reaction VS a Toon Link was literally "FUC*. Even Rage can't do crap. He does have a faster air speed.

Hmm.. I was a little hard on Ryu. I think it might be even, because unless inputted correctly, his projectile is crap. He has poor approach options and I find zoning to be very easy. He is terrifying up close because as you stated, U-Tlti strings don't always work. He's a game where you're dead if you don't use bombs correctly and zone right.

Mewtwo is just, I know it should be in his favour, but Sakurai hates Mewtwo and continues to misrepresent his weight. He's a Fighter of extremely unusual traits. He is able to disrupt Hero's Bow and Boomerang, a big problem, but he'd have to think before Confusing a Bomb, as this can lead into his favour. I feel like it's a glass cannon fight. Both characters are speedy and kill quick.
Maybe it's in Mewtwo's favour, and it will be if he gets weight patches.

Lucas can only absorb bombs. You'd normally want to use Bombs up close. When a Lucas attempts to heal, I go in to hit him like he's Jigglypuff. PK Magnet leaves him open. And I'm pretty sure Tink's Zair is longer. Overall, Lucas has more killing potential, you are correct.

No disagreements with Villager

Agree with Cloud, terrifying

I seriously think that Roy is looked down on in this matchup. He's TERRIFYING... Up close. Sure, you can play keep away easily, but his Speed and K.O potential is too much.

Pikachu is okayfor me to deal with. I feel that's it's very even, he's faster but we best him in projectiles, and we have even OOS options IMO. You have to win neutral quickly.

Shulk is slightly in his favour. Sure, he lacks a projectile, but he's still diverse and hard to deal with.. I think that taking advantage in his weaknesses is the key to victory. Be aggressive with Jump, bait and punish with Speed, abuse Shulks speed and weight in Shield, bait and punish with Buster, and play keep away with Smash

Huh, so we can do something against Rosalina. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Moobussir]

I agree with you and realise my mistakes..., for the most part.
I seriously feel bad for any DK I go up against, it's compelety one-sided. I used to Secondary DK and still have him as a casual play character and My general reaction VS a Toon Link was literally "FUC*. Even Rage can't do crap. He does have a faster air speed.

Hmm.. I was a little hard on Ryu. I think it might be even, because unless inputted correctly, his projectile is crap. He has poor approach options and I find zoning to be very easy. He is terrifying up close because as you stated, U-Tlti strings don't always work. He's a game where you're dead if you don't use bombs correctly and zone right.

Mewtwo is just, I know it should be in his favour, but Sakurai hates Mewtwo and continues to misrepresent his weight. He's a Fighter of extremely unusual traits. He is able to disrupt Hero's Bow and Boomerang, a big problem, but he'd have to think before Confusing a Bomb, as this can lead into his favour. I feel like it's a glass cannon fight. Both characters are speedy and kill quick.
Maybe it's in Mewtwo's favour, and it will be if he gets weight patches.

Lucas can only absorb bombs. You'd normally want to use Bombs up close. When a Lucas attempts to heal, I go in to hit him like he's Jigglypuff. PK Magnet leaves him open. And I'm pretty sure Tink's Zair is longer. Overall, Lucas has more killing potential, you are correct.

No disagreements with Villager

Agree with Cloud, terrifying

I seriously think that Roy is looked down on in this matchup. He's TERRIFYING... Up close. Sure, you can play keep away easily, but his Speed and K.O potential is too much.

Pikachu is okayfor me to deal with. I feel that's it's very even, he's faster but we best him in projectiles, and we have even OOS options IMO. You have to win neutral quickly.

Shulk is slightly in his favour. Sure, he lacks a projectile, but he's still diverse and hard to deal with.. I think that taking advantage in his weaknesses is the key to victory. Be aggressive with Jump, bait and punish with Speed, abuse Shulks speed and weight in Shield, bait and punish with Buster, and play keep away with Smash

Huh, so we can do something against Rosalina. I'll keep that in mind.

When evaluating a Ryu, I tend to think of them as perfect in their inputs, as that's usually the type of Ryu that is encountered in tourney. I've seen Ryu's that combo you with weak Up-Tilt to True Shoryu, consistent Shaku Hadoken's, consistent True Shoryuken's as well. This was even towards the beginning of his release too. I'm surprised people don't complain about him more then Bayonetta because I find him to be even more complain worthy (But I personally am not that kind of person so )

In my opinion it definitely leans to Mewtwo's favour as he has more options and has an answer to our B&B. But otherwise you're right, being the glass cannon means he will die earlier then we would in a standard situation too. especially Up-Tilt to Up-Air. It's a Bayo killer combo too and it's very effective.

You have a good point on Lucas. It's a bigger commitment for him to go for bomb absorbs for sure. And as for Zair comparisons (Just looked it up to make sure), his Zair is faster but smaller in range and utility (and does 2%), whereas ours is slower but easier to connect, does 4% and can lead into a few things too, not to mention more options overall as a Toon Link. Example, personally, I like to use Zair and boomerang in tandom to push opponents into one using the other for combo's (Zair to Returning Rang to Grab is cool). Oh yeah, and it's a better tool to tie with other projectiles like Hadoken's overall.

Roy's stats do certainly favour his ground mobility, not to mention his low jumps, and he has strong combo's, not to mention that KO power, but the Roy's I fight simply cannot get in when I apply the proper pressure. Up-B certainly is a dangerous move to deal with if he gets in, since it's fast and powerful, plus a vertical finisher, but overall I find he can't easily challenge us. Different players different styles perhaps.

I agree on Pikachu. Staying speedy and predicting their options I find is useful personally. Aside from Quick Attack, I find them on the predictable side, but they're still fast and have incredible powerful Smash attacks regardless.

Shulk, you just might be right there too. I mean, even with his slow aerial frames, if we commit to a bomb or boomerang approach, I find myself getting knocked back regardless since he has time to prepare his spacing with that incredible range. Overall, challenging him is always risky on his grounds with his Arts since he's got his strategy in mind, but you bring up good points. On that note, I find people don't punish Shulk a lot when he switches arts, maybe because they're not fast enough. We have boomerang and arrows for quick options to cover opponent landings like that. Could prove to be quite useful in that sense.

Rosalina is def not easy, especially with how smart most of her players are, but in my opinion and some of the other Rosa's I've talked to, Down-B is a good option but is often used to come to a matchup conclusion too quickly. And as most of the other Tink's I know like BFO, they advertise it quite often and it does sound like a Godsend for situations like Rosa and Mewtwo. I personally don't use it but it's on the list to learn for these situations.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

When evaluating a Ryu, I tend to think of them as perfect in their inputs, as that's usually the type of Ryu that is encountered in tourney. I've seen Ryu's that combo you with weak Up-Tilt to True Shoryu, consistent Shaku Hadoken's, consistent True Shoryuken's as well. This was even towards the beginning of his release too. I'm surprised people don't complain about him more then Bayonetta because I find him to be even more complain worthy (But I personally am not that kind of person so )

In my opinion it definitely leans to Mewtwo's favour as he has more options and has an answer to our B&B. But otherwise you're right, being the glass cannon means he will die earlier then we would in a standard situation too. especially Up-Tilt to Up-Air. It's a Bayo killer combo too and it's very effective.

You have a good point on Lucas. It's a bigger commitment for him to go for bomb absorbs for sure. And as for Zair comparisons (Just looked it up to make sure), his Zair is faster but smaller in range and utility (and does 2%), whereas ours is slower but easier to connect, does 4% and can lead into a few things too, not to mention more options overall as a Toon Link. Example, personally, I like to use Zair and boomerang in tandom to push opponents into one using the other for combo's (Zair to Returning Rang to Grab is cool). Oh yeah, and it's a better tool to tie with other projectiles like Hadoken's overall.

Roy's stats do certainly favour his ground mobility, not to mention his low jumps, and he has strong combo's, not to mention that KO power, but the Roy's I fight simply cannot get in when I apply the proper pressure. Up-B certainly is a dangerous move to deal with if he gets in, since it's fast and powerful, plus a vertical finisher, but overall I find he can't easily challenge us. Different players different styles perhaps.

I agree on Pikachu. Staying speedy and predicting their options I find is useful personally. Aside from Quick Attack, I find them on the predictable side, but they're still fast and have incredible powerful Smash attacks regardless.

Shulk, you just might be right there too. I mean, even with his slow aerial frames, if we commit to a bomb or boomerang approach, I find myself getting knocked back regardless since he has time to prepare his spacing with that incredible range. Overall, challenging him is always risky on his grounds with his Arts since he's got his strategy in mind, but you bring up good points. On that note, I find people don't punish Shulk a lot when he switches arts, maybe because they're not fast enough. We have boomerang and arrows for quick options to cover opponent landings like that. Could prove to be quite useful in that sense.

Rosalina is def not easy, especially with how smart most of her players are, but in my opinion and some of the other Rosa's I've talked to, Down-B is a good option but is often used to come to a matchup conclusion too quickly. And as most of the other Tink's I know like BFO, they advertise it quite often and it does sound like a Godsend for situations like Rosa and Mewtwo. I personally don't use it but it's on the list to learn for these situations.

Well, that was a quick matchup discussion. Any matchups you'd like to talk about? I'd like to talk about and ones the most. Also, that Birthday thing is pretty cool.

 

[Moobussir]

Well, that was a quick matchup discussion. Any matchups you'd like to talk about? I'd like to talk about and ones the most. Also, that Birthday thing is pretty cool.

Actually yeah, especially Pac-Man cause I recently fought a good one and I have some things to say.

So Pac is a bit of a camper since he gets more out of preparing setups as opposed to approaching. While he charges from afar, throwing projectiles his way is a good way to disrupt his plans. Even so, every single Bonus Fruit has a benefit and all should be approached with caution. Here's a quick list of the notable ones.

Apple: Fast, travels in a steep slope, KO's vertically at 150%+. Low charge makes it a fast option. DI Down & Away
Orange: Also fast, goes straight, good knockback. Low charge, good to gimp with. Mind your airdodges, he can frame-trap with Side-B off stage
Melon: Slow but strong. Thrown up or down is really slow, makes it a strong trap (I've been stuck under a stage after Zairing cause he threw it down). Try to grab it and just get it out of the way since there's not much we can use it for.
Galaxian: A bit predictable, since Pac will usually try to grab it himself afterwords. If you see this ahead of time well enough, try to set him up for some damage somehow.
Bell: Also predictable but very potent. His best punish using it though is usually his Smash's or maybe Nair. If you grab this yourself it's quite possible to get your own setup since it flows well with your tools.
Key. When it's on deck, always be aware. It breaks hydrant in one hit, it's fast, it KO's and it's just overall very dangerous. But Hero's Shield blocks it so :D

Speaking of hydrant, it's something Pac's love. There's many ways for Pac to use it, to either approach or use as a projectile. With Z-dropped Bonus Fruit, he can use some of the higher charges to toss Hydrant in crazy ways quickly, and apply shield pressure if you approach him and he's above you. That said, it's very easy to tell when he's planting one down. If you're on BF or DL, even T&C, Up-Air is God-like on him. He doesn't have a lot of ways to get down if you're stabbing him with Up-Air before he can throw it, and Up-Air even nullifies Hydrant's falling hitbox, making it EXTREMELY safe to juggle with.

Technically speaking we win neutral since our projectiles are made to harass, whereas Pac is more defensive with them. We have more options then him overall and we can offensively set up for damage while he prepares his setups. Not to mention we can use Hydrant safely ourselves by throwing projectiles until it breaks, whereas Pac doesn't get much with bombs. We also win when scuffles happen in CQC, as our sword is stronger then Pac's feet and mouth. His slow grab is also a hindrance, though he can still apply shield pressure with his projectiles so be aware.

As for Up-B, it's a good OoS option for him, and helps with traps too. Like Up-B into Melon or something. Be careful when he uses it on stage since it's a useful trap, and don't rely on it offstage to recover with as Pac can create a new one at any point to get rid of the old one. Last thing, if he needs to recover from down low, never miss an oppourtunity to use his trampoline as well to gimp him by using up the 3rd jump and forcing Pac to his doom.

I feel like I'm missing a number of points so please add what you can, or ask questions or anything. Let's talk Bayo after Pac since I've written too much right now already XD. I tend to write a lot so bear with me if you can.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Actually yeah, especially Pac-Man cause I recently fought a good one and I have some things to say.

So Pac is a bit of a camper since he gets more out of preparing setups as opposed to approaching. While he charges from afar, throwing projectiles his way is a good way to disrupt his plans. Even so, every single Bonus Fruit has a benefit and all should be approached with caution. Here's a quick list of the notable ones.

Apple: Fast, travels in a steep slope, KO's vertically at 150%+. Low charge makes it a fast option. DI Down & Away
Orange: Also fast, goes straight, good knockback. Low charge, good to gimp with. Mind your airdodges, he can frame-trap with Side-B off stage
Melon: Slow but strong. Thrown up or down is really slow, makes it a strong trap (I've been stuck under a stage after Zairing cause he threw it down). Try to grab it and just get it out of the way since there's not much we can use it for.
Galaxian: A bit predictable, since Pac will usually try to grab it himself afterwords. If you see this ahead of time well enough, try to set him up for some damage somehow.
Bell: Also predictable but very potent. His best punish using it though is usually his Smash's or maybe Nair. If you grab this yourself it's quite possible to get your own setup since it flows well with your tools.
Key. When it's on deck, always be aware. It breaks hydrant in one hit, it's fast, it KO's and it's just overall very dangerous. But Hero's Shield blocks it so :D

Speaking of hydrant, it's something Pac's love. There's many ways for Pac to use it, to either approach or use as a projectile. With Z-dropped Bonus Fruit, he can use some of the higher charges to toss Hydrant in crazy ways quickly, and apply shield pressure if you approach him and he's above you. That said, it's very easy to tell when he's planting one down. If you're on BF or DL, even T&C, Up-Air is God-like on him. He doesn't have a lot of ways to get down if you're stabbing him with Up-Air before he can throw it, and Up-Air even nullifies Hydrant's falling hitbox, making it EXTREMELY safe to juggle with.

Technically speaking we win neutral since our projectiles are made to harass, whereas Pac is more defensive with them. We have more options then him overall and we can offensively set up for damage while he prepares his setups. Not to mention we can use Hydrant safely ourselves by throwing projectiles until it breaks, whereas Pac doesn't get much with bombs. We also win when scuffles happen in CQC, as our sword is stronger then Pac's feet and mouth. His slow grab is also a hindrance, though he can still apply shield pressure with his projectiles so be aware.

As for Up-B, it's a good OoS option for him, and helps with traps too. Like Up-B into Melon or something. Be careful when he uses it on stage since it's a useful trap, and don't rely on it offstage to recover with as Pac can create a new one at any point to get rid of the old one. Last thing, if he needs to recover from down low, never miss an oppourtunity to use his trampoline as well to gimp him by using up the 3rd jump and forcing Pac to his doom.

I feel like I'm missing a number of points so please add what you can, or ask questions or anything. Let's talk Bayo after Pac since I've written too much right now already XD. I tend to write a lot so bear with me if you can.

What I most disagree with is Up-B being a good OOS option. Sure, it'll hit opponents beside him, but it leaves him helpless. He's very open to an aerial attack. And I know you are talking abut the trap bit, but I think it's rather easily avoided. And Pac-Man is probably the third easiest character in the game to gimp, Lucas 2nd and Ness 1st. While he has a super armoured Side B, if it bounces off a wall, it isn't good for him. And like you said, just jump on the Trampoline, then he has less jumps. It's as the wiki said. "Pac-Mans biggest weakness is that all of his special moves can be used by his opponents. If you're wondering about Side B, if you stop him at the beginning, a Power Pellet is left behind, that can be eaten

Pac-Mans fruits are more diverse, but ours come out quicker and are more pressuring. I also think their kill power is even. Pac's got surprisingly high survivabilty. We can win neutral rather easily with Hero's Bow and Boomerang. Bomb setups are about average difficulty pulling them off. I think up close and in the air, we beat Pac slightly. He's not completely underwhelmed, but can be put at a disadvantage rather quickly. Also, pretty sure Hero's Shield can block all fruits. I think we should treat the fruits like the Monado Arts:Take care of what he has. Example, if he pulls a Hydrant out and he has a Key in hand, Shield or Roll. Bell is very dangerous, but probably the hardest to land. Galaxia is very easy to avoid, jus watch out for him trying to grab you. The others I say the same as you

Hydrant is fun. For both sides. It can be used in the most dangerous and basic setup;Key into Hydrant. This creates two hit boxes that are very dangerous. We can use Hydrant pretty easily against him. Up Smash launches it upwards, creating a Up Toss Gordo for Toon Link. Like Dedede, this can be used as a trap setup. We could go Brawn over Brains and just launch it forward too.

Overall, I'd place the matchup 60:40 for Toon Link. He can gain stage control pretty easily and beats Pac up close and in the air, but Pac-Man has dangerous setups to watch out for. Once Toon Link approaches, Pac's in trouble.