Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Moobussir]

What I most disagree with is Up-B being a good OOS option. Sure, it'll hit opponents beside him, but it leaves him helpless. He's very open to an aerial attack. And I know you are talking abut the trap bit, but I think it's rather easily avoided. And Pac-Man is probably the third easiest character in the game to gimp, Lucas 2nd and Ness 1st. While he has a super armoured Side B, if it bounces off a wall, it isn't good for him. And like you said, just jump on the Trampoline, then he has less jumps. It's as the wiki said. "Pac-Mans biggest weakness is that all of his special moves can be used by his opponents. If you're wondering about Side B, if you stop him at the beginning, a Power Pellet is left behind, that can be eaten

Pac-Mans fruits are more diverse, but ours come out quicker and are more pressuring. I also think their kill power is even. Pac's got surprisingly high survivabilty. We can win neutral rather easily with Hero's Bow and Boomerang. Bomb setups are about average difficulty pulling them off. I think up close and in the air, we beat Pac slightly. He's not completely underwhelmed, but can be put at a disadvantage rather quickly. Also, pretty sure Hero's Shield can block all fruits. I think we should treat the fruits like the Monado Arts:Take care of what he has. Example, if he pulls a Hydrant out and he has a Key in hand, Shield or Roll. Bell is very dangerous, but probably the hardest to land. Galaxia is very easy to avoid, jus watch out for him trying to grab you. The others I say the same as you

Hydrant is fun. For both sides. It can be used in the most dangerous and basic setup;Key into Hydrant. This creates two hit boxes that are very dangerous. We can use Hydrant pretty easily against him. Up Smash launches it upwards, creating a Up Toss Gordo for Toon Link. Like Dedede, this can be used as a trap setup. We could go Brawn over Brains and just launch it forward too.

Overall, I'd place the matchup 60:40 for Toon Link. He can gain stage control pretty easily and beats Pac up close and in the air, but Pac-Man has dangerous setups to watch out for. Once Toon Link approaches, Pac's in trouble.

You're not wrong about Up-B OoS. The trap is fairly foretelling and he's helpless once he uses it, but I found it notable at least. After all, it comes out on frame 4, which is faster then anything else he has, especially grab. Pellet is well-known to heal and all, but honestly I feel like it's also a trap since Pac might just approach you if you eat it since you're inactive for a few frames. Maybe it's more of a mindgame thing but yeah.

Here's an interesting tidbit of information. A crash course in Priority if you will. Basically, attacks that are within 9% of damage to each other will cancel each other out. Read a bit here and the examples at the bottom of the page will explain perfectly: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority
So when it comes down to the Key, since it does 15%, we just need an attack that does 6% or more damage to neutralize the key. Mid-high levels of Arrow charge and early Boomerang will do the trick.

I did a bit of research on countering Hydrant as well. If we need to deal 13% to destroy it, what's the best way to do so? Usually, Pac will B-air it, which means any hit that does 1% will destroy it. However, if we happen to get to it before that point (Say if he charges fruit above it and he gets watered up), how should we destroy it? I'm not sure about what the best options are based on angles, but some of the fastest include Jab 1-2 -> F-tilt/D-tilt, D-tilt -> F-tilt, Dash Attack to F-tilt/D-tilt, Boomerang (Up close) to F-tilt, D-tilt or another Boomerang. I would avoid N-air or B-air as the staleness that must be on them by that point makes it a bit inconsistent to deal with, but if you can account for it, they must be good attacks to launch with based on angles.

Never Up-B though. I thought the damage-racking ability was good and the hydrant would bounce around you to keep you safe, but it's never worth getting blown off the ledge and being helpless.

You're also right about the projectile usage. We win neutral for our better utility, but he does have options if he uses them right, though once we know what he has in hand, we can also predict him to a level, and he doesn't get too much off of us knowing that knowledge and adapting. Basically, it's not the best mindgame. His frame data in the air is actually fairly good. His Fair in terms of speed is actually as good Sheik's, but combo's are limited by several factors. But we outrange him anyway so it's merely notable, not worrisome.

I like 60-40. Overall we have better tools in total, and we don't get outcamped so we're all good.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

You're not wrong about Up-B OoS. The trap is fairly foretelling and he's helpless once he uses it, but I found it notable at least. After all, it comes out on frame 4, which is faster then anything else he has, especially grab. Pellet is well-known to heal and all, but honestly I feel like it's also a trap since Pac might just approach you if you eat it since you're inactive for a few frames. Maybe it's more of a mindgame thing but yeah.

Here's an interesting tidbit of information. A crash course in Priority if you will. Basically, attacks that are within 9% of damage to each other will cancel each other out. Read a bit here and the examples at the bottom of the page will explain perfectly: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority
So when it comes down to the Key, since it does 15%, we just need an attack that does 6% or more damage to neutralize the key. Mid-high levels of Arrow charge and early Boomerang will do the trick.

I did a bit of research on countering Hydrant as well. If we need to deal 13% to destroy it, what's the best way to do so? Usually, Pac will B-air it, which means any hit that does 1% will destroy it. However, if we happen to get to it before that point (Say if he charges fruit above it and he gets watered up), how should we destroy it? I'm not sure about what the best options are based on angles, but some of the fastest include Jab 1-2 -> F-tilt/D-tilt, D-tilt -> F-tilt, Dash Attack to F-tilt/D-tilt, Boomerang (Up close) to F-tilt, D-tilt or another Boomerang. I would avoid N-air or B-air as the staleness that must be on them by that point makes it a bit inconsistent to deal with, but if you can account for it, they must be good attacks to launch with based on angles.

Never Up-B though. I thought the damage-racking ability was good and the hydrant would bounce around you to keep you safe, but it's never worth getting blown off the ledge and being helpless.

You're also right about the projectile usage. We win neutral for our better utility, but he does have options if he uses them right, though once we know what he has in hand, we can also predict him to a level, and he doesn't get too much off of us knowing that knowledge and adapting. Basically, it's not the best mindgame. His frame data in the air is actually fairly good. His Fair in terms of speed is actually as good Sheik's, but combo's are limited by several factors. But we outrange him anyway so it's merely notable, not worrisome.

I like 60-40. Overall we have better tools in total, and we don't get outcamped so we're all good.

This is going to be short because I don't have much to talk about. Yes, Toon Link has unusually bad frame data for a lightweight (My belief for that is because he also boasts unusual killing power for a lightweight.) but his power is far stronger than Pac's, so we just need to play a Bait And Punish game up close along with Bomb Setups. Bombs help a lot up close (One of the few buffs that really mean something between Brawl and 4) because I feel these are most effective against middleweights. I'd say Heavyweights but they're hard to kill.

Up B is very risky. It never breaks shields and it's reach is poorer than Pac's Forward Smash.... Up Smash is less risky.
I think that if a Hydrant is about to fly by 1% just shoot it with Wavebouncing Hero's Bow.
Anyway, it's been interesting to talk about this, but I think we're done.
How about ? The reason I want to talk about her is because Toon Link is shaping up to be the biggest counter in the game. Which, while not as much with 1.1.6, still means a lot

 

[Moobussir]

This is going to be short because I don't have much to talk about. Yes, Toon Link has unusually bad frame data for a lightweight (My belief for that is because he also boasts unusual killing power for a lightweight.) but his power is far stronger than Pac's, so we just need to play a Bait And Punish game up close along with Bomb Setups. Bombs help a lot up close (One of the few buffs that really mean something between Brawl and 4) because I feel these are most effective against middleweights. I'd say Heavyweights but they're hard to kill.

Up B is very risky. It never breaks shields and it's reach is poorer than Pac's Forward Smash.... Up Smash is less risky.
I think that if a Hydrant is about to fly by 1% just shoot it with Wavebouncing Hero's Bow.
Anyway, it's been interesting to talk about this, but I think we're done.
How about ? The reason I want to talk about her is because Toon Link is shaping up to be the biggest counter in the game. Which, while not as much with 1.1.6, still means a lot

Sure thing. Let's talk Bayo in 1.1.6 vs Toon Link (Though I have little experience in 1.1.6 so I might start describing 1.1.5 a bit, correct me where I'm wrong if you could please).

Vs Bayo, it's important to not overcommit to unsafe options. Although her combo game is made massively less effective with even mediocre SDI, Witch Time still exists, and one strong hit from a Smash, B-air, or even worse, offstage KO from D-air or D-Smash might end you, with the latter two possibly KOing at 10%.

A good strategy is to stay grounded where you can. If you require your shield at some point, it's easy access for you, not to mention you have your JCBT's to slide around where you need to, to approach or retreat while throwing and staying spaced. Bomb-Fake Out, or BFO, is also quite useful in helping you punish opponents to try to anticipate your attacks, and against an opponent as light as Bayo, punishes are very rewarding.

Up-Tilt combo's are very interesting vs her. You can go for easybake Up-Tilt's to Up-Smash at low %'s, but if your opponent is spamming Witch Time or you can anticipate it, you could potentially pull a Hyuga and finish with a charged F-Smash instead. Just remember that for air dodges, Bat Within triggers between frames 1-4, and for Witch Time, the counter starts on frame 5. Anda higher percents, Up-Tilt to Up-Air is extremely potent, as her fast falling speed and again light weight make this combo always a threat.

As a side note to low % Up-Tilt combo's, Bat Within is potentially an excellent combo breaker to Up-Tilt. Ryu is already infamous for being able to break out of them with True Shroyu. The frame data on Kurogane isn't helping me prove my point, but he does have some form of invincibility which helps him escape, so a move on frame 1 would probably help too, no? I haven't got the proof sadly but it makes sense for it to exist. I could be totally wrong though.

Anyway. Some Toon Link's, notably Zan, have said that her N-air can destroy boomerang, which is fairly overwhelming in his opinion. Most Bayo's will spam N-air in neutral, either to use Bullet Arts to deal chip damage, or in our case, to use the N-air or BA to wreck boomerang. To this I would recommend trying to cover her landing as she needs to land after every N-air. Honestly though this is easier said then done, as she can continue holding down the button to extend the sex-kick nature of her N-air until landing, preventing options like JC Up Smash. Some options to cover her include an commitment to jumping with bomb or your other projectiles in general, like charging an arrow. While not the most rewarding, it's at least an answer.

Downward-angled ABK is often a difficult attack to deal with as well. Although it's not a combo starter anymore, it's potentially an edgeguard tool now among whatever other uses Bayo mains will assign it. As a counter, aside from edgeguarding, I would recommend boomerang, although bomb is always good too. Although it's difficult to anticipate, if she's going for a D-ABK, throwing a boomerang in the area she's going to travel in can prove to be a valuable asset to stop her. Wavebounced and even just retreating before throwing upward is useful. Spot-dodging and rolling is not recommended, as there is a hitbox when she lands which is hard to avoid.

I must be missing other things, so I'll leave any other comments you'd like to add here as well. I bet I'm wrong on a number of things so forgive me for those, but let's get a discussion going regardless.

 

[Big O]

What's up Toon Link mains and enthusiasts? The DK boards are currently discussing Toon Link in our MU thread and would appreciate any opinions, strategies, and in-depth discussion you could contribute on the MU.

 

[TsarofToon]

I think Dealing with her combos should be easy, we just have to make sure to always have a bomb on us. SDI will help too, so we can SDI out of her WT or ABK, but reading is still a think, so we still have to deal with that. If a Bayo messes up and we get out of a combo, I think either a U-Air or F-air should be a punish, or even Up-B to carry her higher to the ceiling (Yet Bayo combos aren't really a thing anymore)

DABK is possible her best bet at Edge Guarding (R.I.P Cloud) and the angle can be hard to come back from. Yet, it still launches us slightly up, so if we can get close to ledge, tether is the best option. Up-B is dangerous, cause she can WT then stage spike or D-air us to death.

BA, is something kinda simple, and I never seen good use for it. Due to its angle it hits us, we can force them to stop using it if we just use a Uncharged arrow. It goes low enough to go under BA, yet it can also hit Bayo (Or I predict, cause I don't have the time to test ATM)

If anyone wants to add on, feel free to. Also, point out ALL my mistakes, cause there are bound to be some. After all, this is my first time doing this sorta thing.

Big O I'll try to help out as much as I can.

 

[Moobussir]

I think Dealing with her combos should be easy, we just have to make sure to always have a bomb on us. SDI will help too, so we can SDI out of her WT or ABK, but reading is still a think, so we still have to deal with that. If a Bayo messes up and we get out of a combo, I think either a U-Air or F-air should be a punish, or even Up-B to carry her higher to the ceiling (Yet Bayo combos aren't really a thing anymore)

DABK is possible her best bet at Edge Guarding (R.I.P Cloud) and the angle can be hard to come back from. Yet, it still launches us slightly up, so if we can get close to ledge, tether is the best option. Up-B is dangerous, cause she can WT then stage spike or D-air us to death.

BA, is something kinda simple, and I never seen good use for it. Due to its angle it hits us, we can force them to stop using it if we just use a Uncharged arrow. It goes low enough to go under BA, yet it can also hit Bayo (Or I predict, cause I don't have the time to test ATM)

If anyone wants to add on, feel free to. Also, point out ALL my mistakes, cause there are bound to be some. After all, this is my first time doing this sorta thing.

Big O I'll try to help out as much as I can.

Bullet arts are good for edgeguarding, our best bet is to get out of the line of fire so we aren't forced to recover with max-range Up-B and get Witch Time'd or D-aired.

The good thing about avoiding DABK is that Toon Link's are already airdodge happy when recovering since we want to save the bomb, so avoiding that shouldn't be the hardest. In fact, if we tether without airdodging and drop the bomb, we could have Bayo charge right into the bomb and we can counter with B-air? It's a though.

Nah dw about mistakes, at least you kept it short and concise unlike me usually XD

 

[TsarofToon]

Hey, is there any characters we haven't talked about yet? Like the Mii Fighters or Sonic? I would like to compile a complete list of the matchups for future reference and convienience.

 

[Moobussir]

Hey, is there any characters we haven't talked about yet? Like the Mii Fighters or Sonic? I would like to compile a complete list of the matchups for future reference and convienience.

On the first page of this message board, we have that list of matchups we've written information for so far. However, currently, our boards are designed for free-form discussion since we don't have enough active members to keep a weekly matchup discussion going consistently. There's a TON of matchups that not only haven't been written up officially yet, but also need a lot of updates due to patches, but as a message board the Toon Link's are bad at staying active here.

That said, I bet if we had a good enough discussion going on a single character and we get the approval of Fox Is Openly Deceptive , we might be able to, slowly, one by one, complete the chart. (We've written a few matchups on Page, most notably Pac-Man, so check that out FIOD)

I can't offer great advice on Sonic since I haven't fought too many, but out of the Mii's I can briefly talk about Brawler.

The biggest thing with Brawler is keeping him out. He has no good approach against a camper like us. You will want to stay centre-stage a lot since, if he grabs you off stage ad he has Up-B 2, he will attempt to combo you off stage for an early KO, as early as 50% sometimes. Practice DI for that combo specifically in case you end up in that situation. Would recommend Battlefield or Dreamland since, although he can shark you from below if you're on platforms, he doesn't gain a huge benefit positionally, and our sharking is better. T&C and Smashville are bad IMO since T&C has closer blast zones and the high bass knockback of Up-B 2 is quite effective there, and SV's platform can only ensure the combo ends even more safely for Brawler.

I'm placing a lot of emphasis on Up-B 2 but it's simply that jank for him to make a point of avoiding. Aside from that, his disjoint is weak so we can stay well-spaced with sword attacks. Smash attacks are quite powerful and dangerous to be hit by, but have notable cooldown. Be careful in CQC and you can avoid being batedthem all-together.

There's a lot more to say but I've gotta go for now, we can add more on any matchup so far later on.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

On the first page of this message board, we have that list of matchups we've written information for so far. However, currently, our boards are designed for free-form discussion since we don't have enough active members to keep a weekly matchup discussion going consistently. There's a TON of matchups that not only haven't been written up officially yet, but also need a lot of updates due to patches, but as a message board the Toon Link's are bad at staying active here.

That said, I bet if we had a good enough discussion going on a single character and we get the approval of Fox Is Openly Deceptive , we might be able to, slowly, one by one, complete the chart. (We've written a few matchups on Page, most notably Pac-Man, so check that out FIOD)

The plan I had kind of fell through when the top players who promised to help out by 'liking' posts they agreed with decided not to show, or else I guess they really didn't take a liking to anything that has been posted so far (highly doubtful).
sigh
I don't know what to do..
It might actually be better to make a separate thread for each character with a centralised stickied thread that links to all of them like what we have in the Link boards. I could do this by turning posts in here into threads then moving related posts into those threads, and then for the characters that have a tlbr post quoted in the OP, preferably I'd want the one who wrote it (namely Jash) to own the thread so that the write-up can be at the top. We could do this either by getting in contact with him or I might be able to work some mod magic and make it happen anyway.
Oh but then many of the write-ups are probably out-dated by now anyway.. What to do..
Maybe it would be best to have a fresh start.
Or maybe it would be possible to figure out what dates each character was last patched and then only include posts concerning that MU from that date.

Have a think about it then feel free to post suggestions about how we should do MU discussions, keeping in mind all the circumstances and trying to stay realistic. I have a backlog of stuff to do in the holidays which is in a week, so maybe I could add fixing our MU thread situation into that list of things to do if that is your wish.

 

[TsarofToon]

The plan I had kind of fell through when the top players who promised to help out by 'liking' posts they agreed with decided not to show, or else I guess they really didn't take a liking to anything that has been posted so far (highly doubtful).
sigh
I don't know what to do..
It might actually be better to make a separate thread for each character with a centralised stickied thread that links to all of them like what we have in the Link boards. I could do this by turning posts in here into threads then moving related posts into those threads, and then for the characters that have a tlbr post quoted in the OP, preferably I'd want the one who wrote it (namely Jash) to own the thread so that the write-up can be at the top. We could do this either by getting in contact with him or I might be able to work some mod magic and make it happen anyway.
Oh but then many of the write-ups are probably out-dated by now anyway.. What to do..
Maybe it would Moonmst to have a fresh start.
Or maybe it would be possible to figure out what dates each character was last patched and then only include posts concerning that MU from that date.

Have a think about it then feel free to post suggestions about how we should do MU discussions, keeping in mind all the circumstances and trying to stay realistic. I have a backlog of stuff to do in the holidays which is in a week, so maybe I could add fixing our MU thread situation into that list of things to do if that is your wish.

I have been noticing a lack of People on lately. The boards have gotten really quiet. As for what we should do for matchups, just keep it on this thread. Or if the idea you suggested if easier Fox Is Openly Deceptive , then do that. Whatever makes your life easier. I think I personally might start going over to other boards to see if we can't get their help with some of these matchups. I can help as much as I can mostly due to my the open time I will have this summer.
Don't overwork yourself, pal.
Now, if you excuse me, I have to see if a kind soul will help us with the Sonic Matchup.
Play Safe and Have Fun!
-Danny, the TsarofToon

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Or if the idea you suggested if easier

Well no it's certainly not easier XD. In fact it would take quite a bit of time, but I was willing to do it if it helped things.

Now, if you excuse me, I have to see if a kind soul will help us with the Sonic Matchup.

I know a kind soul that could help us with the Sonic MU. Camalange

 

[TsarofToon]

I know a kind soul that could help us with the Sonic MU. Camalange

Well, I left him a message asking for help, so hopefully we get something soon

 

[Moobussir]

The plan I had kind of fell through when the top players who promised to help out by 'liking' posts they agreed with decided not to show, or else I guess they really didn't take a liking to anything that has been posted so far (highly doubtful).
sigh
I don't know what to do..
It might actually be better to make a separate thread for each character with a centralised stickied thread that links to all of them like what we have in the Link boards. I could do this by turning posts in here into threads then moving related posts into those threads, and then for the characters that have a tlbr post quoted in the OP, preferably I'd want the one who wrote it (namely Jash) to own the thread so that the write-up can be at the top. We could do this either by getting in contact with him or I might be able to work some mod magic and make it happen anyway.
Oh but then many of the write-ups are probably out-dated by now anyway.. What to do..
Maybe it would be best to have a fresh start.
Or maybe it would be possible to figure out what dates each character was last patched and then only include posts concerning that MU from that date.

Have a think about it then feel free to post suggestions about how we should do MU discussions, keeping in mind all the circumstances and trying to stay realistic. I have a backlog of stuff to do in the holidays which is in a week, so maybe I could add fixing our MU thread situation into that list of things to do if that is your wish.

I've seen a number of boards go for this strategy as well, like the Rosa's. It's definitely a viable option for our boards I think, but I don't know how people are going to make use of it. I can't imagine people will go out of their way to add information to those threads even if they find knowledge worth adding.

This one isn't as much of a solution but I need to mention this. The Toon Link community exists, but almost exclusively on Discord. Even the Skype group died out once Discord became a thing. They are extremely active there, and I've been told it's one of the best Discord servers for any Smash character. On that note, I would recommend joining the Toon Link Discord server which you can find at this link: http://smashcord.com/character.html

More importantly, I've REALLY been wishing to find a way to have the Discord community interact with Smashboards. They all provide so much information to each other daily (Which is easier since it's like a social platform as opposed to organized forums, encourages freer speech and discussion). If we can find a way to connect the communities, we might breathe life like never before onto the Toon Link Smashboards. But the first step is embracing Discord first I guess XD. The OG Smashboard guys would love to see you, Fox, on Discord, since you're quite knowledgeable. But let me know what you think.

(On a side note, I have a lot of trouble using Smashboards myself. My computer is so bad, that I have crashed because of Smashboards. It uses SO MUCH RAM. It can use up to 2 GB of RAM by itself if I let the tab be open for long enough. My laptop is actually overheating right now. I gotta dip XD)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've seen a number of boards go for this strategy as well, like the Rosa's. It's definitely a viable option for our boards I think, but I don't know how people are going to make use of it. I can't imagine people will go out of their way to add information to those threads even if they find knowledge worth adding.

This one isn't as much of a solution but I need to mention this. The Toon Link community exists, but almost exclusively on Discord. Even the Skype group died out once Discord became a thing. They are extremely active there, and I've been told it's one of the best Discord servers for any Smash character. On that note, I would recommend joining the Toon Link Discord server which you can find at this link: http://smashcord.com/character.html

More importantly, I've REALLY been wishing to find a way to have the Discord community interact with Smashboards. They all provide so much information to each other daily (Which is easier since it's like a social platform as opposed to organized forums, encourages freer speech and discussion). If we can find a way to connect the communities, we might breathe life like never before onto the Toon Link Smashboards. But the first step is embracing Discord first I guess XD. The OG Smashboard guys would love to see you, Fox, on Discord, since you're quite knowledgeable. But let me know what you think.

(On a side note, I have a lot of trouble using Smashboards myself. My computer is so bad, that I have crashed because of Smashboards. It uses SO MUCH RAM. It can use up to 2 GB of RAM by itself if I let the tab be open for long enough. My laptop is actually overheating right now. I gotta dip XD)

I don't think there's any trouble in regards to smashboards embracing discord, the problem lies with discord not embracing smashboards. The discord community needs to understand and appreciate what this platform offers in regards to a more structured, permanent and focused discussion. At the very least they should use it for archiving purposes. If someone does a great write-up e.g. on a MU, then that should also be posted here for posterity's sake if for no other reason. They would do well to use smashboards as the large, interconnected and influential resource that it is. Feel free to pass the message on.

As for me, I honestly don't have the time to be spending in chats like that. It doesn't matter what it is, e.g. I was never on skype either, so you know it's nothing personal. That's all it comes down to, lack of time. That and I like to make long posts..
They know where to find me.

 

[Camalange]

I know a kind soul that could help us with the Sonic MU. Camalange

Well, I left him a message asking for help, so hopefully we get something soon

oh no

toon link

i'll need a drink for this one but give me a few days

 

[TsarofToon]

oh no

toon link

i'll need a drink for this one but give me a few days

Thank you for your help, good sir.

 

[Halfy]

I don't think there's any trouble in regards to smashboards embracing discord, the problem lies with discord not embracing smashboards. The discord community needs to understand and appreciate what this platform offers in regards to a more structured, permanent and focused discussion. At the very least they should use it for archiving purposes. If someone does a great write-up e.g. on a MU, then that should also be posted here for posterity's sake if for no other reason. They would do well to use smashboards as the large, interconnected and influential resource that it is. Feel free to pass the message on.

As for me, I honestly don't have the time to be spending in chats like that. It doesn't matter what it is, e.g. I was never on skype either, so you know it's nothing personal. That's all it comes down to, lack of time. That and I like to make long posts..
They know where to find me.

Well, there is a discord we have specifically for labbing and advancing the meta, its not as active as the main discords so you might want to check it out. Its as close to smashboards as you can get without having it be completely inactive.


https://discord.gg/0wrlvfpxRJlXSzZ3

 

[Moobussir]

Well, there is a discord we have specifically for labbing and advancing the meta, its not as active as the main discords so you might want to check it out. Its as close to smashboards as you can get without having it be completely inactive.


https://discord.gg/0wrlvfpxRJlXSzZ3

If I'm not mistaken, this is your Discord, correct Halfy? Fox Is Openly Deceptive if you could join one Discord channel, this is the one. I also hate catching up on the active servers but this one is much much smaller and more focused in information over socializing. I totally understand if you can't though, no pressure.

Halfy Do you have ideas on how to try and connect Discord users to SB? Ive loosely suggested it before but it wasn't a hardcore movement. If we can convince the mods, we can create a connection for information to flow, and we can encourage members to use it with reminders and such. I'll try talking to Prem and Sonic at some point and see what happens.

 

[Halfy]

If I'm not mistaken, this is your Discord, correct Halfy? Fox Is Openly Deceptive if you could join one Discord channel, this is the one. I also hate catching up on the active servers but this one is much much smaller and more focused in information over socializing. I totally understand if you can't though, no pressure.

Halfy Do you have ideas on how to try and connect Discord users to SB? Ive loosely suggested it before but it wasn't a hardcore movement. If we can convince the mods, we can create a connection for information to flow, and we can encourage members to use it with reminders and such. I'll try talking to Prem and Sonic at some point and see what happens.

Well, with the new pinning feature, anyone in the server is allowed to pin any message
So, I could just look through the pins and paste it here if someone did a good writeup on a matchup or something
This may not be necessary though because its usually not too many messages for me to catch up
But by all means, if you see something good in there, you can paste it here too

 

[Moobussir]

Well, with the new pinning feature, anyone in the server is allowed to pin any message
So, I could just look through the pins and paste it here if someone did a good writeup on a matchup or something
This may not be necessary though because its usually not too many messages for me to catch up
But by all means, if you see something good in there, you can paste it here too

That sounds good. Something to build off of that might be to have a time frame to talk about one matchup on Discord (JMU discussion or not), and have a notetaker. We narrow down points, have someone write up a matchup guide, get it checked and approved, then post it here. It might help stem the flow of Cloud/Yoshi/Mario etc. inquiries by having the written matchup already posted here, but more importantly, we could get through the matchup chart over time I think. After all, it's basically what the boards already do here and what Fox suggested, with the Discord touch. Thoughts?

 

[Camalange]

Thank you for your help, good sir.

I haven't written anything yet, but hey, you got it!

I have a lot of practice in this match-up. I personally find it to be very close to, if not even. It can be really frustrating and historically gives Sonic issues.

 

[TsarofToon]

That sounds good. Something to build off of that might be to have a time frame to talk about one matchup on Discord (JMU discussion or not), and have a notetaker. We narrow down points, have someone write up a matchup guide, get it checked and approved, then post it here. It might help stem the flow of Cloud/Yoshi/Mario etc. inquiries by having the written matchup already posted here, but more importantly, we could get through the matchup chart over time I think. After all, it's basically what the boards already do here and what Fox suggested, with the Discord touch. Thoughts?

If that seems to be the easiest, most efficient, and the least time consuming, I am all for it. Just for reference purposes, here is the list of characters that we have yet to post official guides on: . Yet we might wanna redo some of the current ones because of patches (Bowser, Ganon, Ike, Sonic (Thank You again Camalange ) etc.) If you guys need help on this sorta stuff, I'm now on summer vacation with only 1 or 2 weeks where I'm not available, other than that I am on nearly everyday. (except when I'm trying to learn a character in the cast. I'm looking at you Greninja) Just a idea, what if we also look for help here on SmashBoards too? If its ok, I still want to ask around for help with the matchups as well. (If I am basically repeating what the idea is, give me a internet slap to the face.) See you all later!
-TsarofToon

 

[Moobussir]

The plans are in motion. Discord will help discuss information, research, compile, and we will try to have a hand as well. I'm not sure how matchups will be decided but right now, they're talking about Link and Ike. Anyone who has information about Tink vs Link/Ike is encouraged to share. I've already taken a look at Fox Is Openly Deceptive 's post on Link here: http://smashboards.com/threads/toon...-guides-in-the-op.378737/page-9#post-20924493

If there's other information that is on the boards, or that you'd like to share, please contribute. I'll help forward the information to the right place, and I'll bring it back here for when we are ready to share it.

Speaking of which, aside from currently linked posts from the first page, is there a way to find characters who have already been discussed here so we can add relevant information? I don't know how to efficiently search for Ike posts.

 

[Mythzotick]

From one fellow cartoon character to another. The boards are about to discuss the Toon Link match up. Any input towards the match up would be most appreciated. Thank you Toon Link mains!

EDIT: http://smashboards.com/threads/boss...scussion-2-0-week-14-bombs-ahoy.431933/page-8

 

[Green Zelda]

Zan recently posted his toon link mu chart on twitter!

Thoughts?

 

[TsarofToon]

I personally don't have much experience with matchups, so I have NO idea how to scale the TL/Other Character odds thing. Here is what I propose. We start from the top of this list (Mario) and make our way all the way to the last character (Jiggs). Now we have a order of which we will discuss characters. Every 1 or 2 weeks we will move onto the next character. If we find Zan's list to be accurate, then we might as well put this picture in replacement of the other matchup picture on the first page of the thread. We will still have the help of Discord with all this stuff as well. If we get off schedule or people aren't active for a while, we will pause for a while and wait. Thoughts?

 

[TsarofToon]

Well, I'ma start with Cloud. Before I begin, shootout to Eddie The Pacifist and Moobussir for helping me learn the matchup first. Most of the info I say will come from them, so thanks to them.
Cloud Vs. Toon Link
I main both of these characters, so I know them well (but probably not well enough to make a matchup about it XD)

Pros:
Gimping him on the ledge is easy, because you can simply dair when he tries to recover. A Ftilt or Fsmash work as well
You can block Blade Beam with Hyrulian Sheild
Bombs can go through Blade Beam and at mid range, you can get a combo
Utilts combo him well.

Cons:
He has MUCH more kill power than you
He is faster/as fast as you, and even faster than you with Limit
He has no problem Juggling you.
Blade Beam has more priority against all your projectiles except Bombs.
Cloud can also edge guard pretty well with reverse nair.
His larger disjoints allows him to out space you.

Overall, try and not get hit as much as you can. This matchup is terrifying for TL, for we can die really early. His Nair, Uair, and Bair beat out out attacks by having more range. We have to try and get to the ground, because he have no way to stop him from Juggling us unless we use bombs and B-Reverses to our advantage. When he is off stage, Use Arrows and Boomerang to keep him away from the ledge. If he manages to get back to the ledge, trump him immidietly, and force him back to ledge. That will mean you can use a dair to close off the stock.
When he tries to edge guard, use arrows to try and stop him, and force him to recover. Bombs work too, but save those for when you need a second UpB or when you get back onstage. Stay in mid range. Close enough to make using Blade Beam unsafe, yet far enough to now to overwhelmed by his attacks.
To summerize, stay in mid range, get him offstage, and try and stay on the ground.

When picking a stage, pick a medium stage, so you can stay in mid range, and stop him from using limit. Try use platforms to re position, but don't stay too long. Clouds sharking game is amazing because of his uair. I would recommend Duck Hunt, Smashville, and also FD so it will be harder for him to kill off the top.

Feel free to mention anything I may have left out. In a few weeks, discussion will be moving on to Mario
-TsarofToon

 

[TsarofToon]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrmRlT4jzbA
Here's a Link to a past tournament bracket
Tweek vs Hyuga.
This may help out with trying to study the matchup at hand.
Hope to see someone help out with with matchup.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Zan recently posted his toon link mu chart on twitter!

Thoughts?

Oh come on, Cloud isn't THAT bad..
Also, wait, what? We win against Captain Falcon?

 

[Green Zelda]

Oh come on, Cloud isn't THAT bad..
Also, wait, what? We win against Captain Falcon?

We can wall falcon out effectively, and kill more consistently. I agree with you on cloud, though ('cmon, even if it's a disadvantage, it can't be that bad)

 

[Moobussir]

Cloud is absolutely our worst matchup, though -2 is a good place to put it. We don't have many things over him, since he has KO power, camping, edgeguarding and combo's down. They are simply too good compared to us.

Edgeguarding Cloud is one of our biggest advantage, but it's not necessarily free, since Climhazard can break projectiles as it rises. Other then that, you need to be able to hold your ground a lot against him. Bait and Punish is the way to go. Shield is pretty good against him since he doesn't get any KO confirms from it other then Up-throw at 200%'s, though he will gain stage position.

While recovering, you need to mix up your options. Cloud can cover a lot of options, but you can almost always find one option that he can't cover. He will often go for, but not exclusively, Limit Side-B and Nair off stage. You can always airdodge while recovering, and time your hookshot ascent when you recover. You can hang on the ledge for a bit, or you can immediately snap up (Just pray you don't instatoss by accident). Speaking of instatoss, using a projectile to cover yourself is a good mixup. Most of them have a lot of lag, but a bomb will go a long way if you have it.

Also, a bit more difficult, but catching his landings is important. If you're fighting an Autocancel Dair-heavy Cloud, catch him when he lands by spacing yourself accordingly. If you're going for a bomb, practice being in a position where you can get a conversion off of his potential positions. You can even catch him with Up-Smash, and I've found it to be very effective, but of course, you're challenging Dair. so it's tight timing.

As for limit camp, there isn't too much you can do about it. Just bug him a lot and take advantage of his mistakes while running away or shielding.

That's my advice on the matchup anyhow. It's widely agreed to be our worst, but not unwinnable.

 

[TsarofToon]

So, can we all agree that for Cloud we have a -2 or a 30:70 in Clouds favor?

EDIT: (This post was really short, I just realized that) If it is OK with everyone, I would like to start the next discussion on the matchup against Mario. As a overall general timeline, I would like to start on a new matchup every 2-3 weeks, so we can get this thread completed and finally have a reliable source for matchups on the Toon Link boards. I must go, so I hope you all have a nice day! -TsarofToon

 

[Green Zelda]

Hiya, tinks! Later this week, I'm going to try out for a discord crew, and one of the people I have to fight uses and . What should do in these mu's in the neutral, when trying to kill, and to get rid of luma? All help (info, ratios) appreciated!

 

[Moobussir]

So, can we all agree that for Cloud we have a -2 or a 30:70 in Clouds favor?

EDIT: (This post was really short, I just realized that) If it is OK with everyone, I would like to start the next discussion on the matchup against Mario. As a overall general timeline, I would like to start on a new matchup every 2-3 weeks, so we can get this thread completed and finally have a reliable source for matchups on the Toon Link boards. I must go, so I hope you all have a nice day! -TsarofToon

Whoa whoa whoa, not 30:70. The matchup isn't nearly that bad. -2 is what most people call 40/60. And even I am starting to think it's closer to -1, 45/55. But I'll settle on 40/60 for the sake of motions.

I'm gonna need some time to judge Mario. I haven't fought many recently and it's overall a bit tough to discuss for that reason but I'll reutrn with information.

Hiya, tinks! Later this week, I'm going to try out for a discord crew, and one of the people I have to fight uses and . What should do in these mu's in the neutral, when trying to kill, and to get rid of luma? All help (info, ratios) appreciated!

Rosalina and Luma, don't be afraid to camp. Rosa has Down-B, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has an advantageous position. She can't use it forever. If Luma is next to her, even if Rosa shields, Luma will get hit and it applies pressure to Rosa more then any other character. The best attack IMO to get rid of Luma is Up-throw, as it can knock Luma far away at 0. If you miss, or she's not dead, F-Smash will clear her, or a JC Up-Smash. And when Luma is gone, your game plan doesn't change vs Rosalina. You can rush down more since Rosa's frame data without Luma is actually quite poor, but Up-Air and Up-Smash are still things. Be patient overall and space well. Oh, and use Zair. I like Zair

Ness, don't throw bombs for free. Ness can and will heal with these. You need to be close and use your other projectiles well, only using bombs when you know it can't be absorbed. Be careful while recovering as Ness has a lot of coverage off-stage with Nair. Speaking of Nair, if you end up shielding next to him, most Ness's love Nair OoS. Don't be caught by this, and expect it, along with Grab of course. Speaking of Grab, don't get grabbed. I need not explain why XD.

That's all I have for now. Hope that helps!

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Zair exposes Rosalina's Hurtbox so well, I love it.
Speaking of Rosalina, Biddy put Rosalina as an even matchup on his matchup spread.
That man is crazy.
Oh, by the way, out of curiously, what's our BEST matchup?

 

[TsarofToon]

Whoa whoa whoa, not 30:70. The matchup isn't nearly that bad. -2 is what most people call 40/60. And even I am starting to think it's closer to -1, 45/55. But I'll settle on 40/60 for the sake of motions.

I'm Ok with that. I just have a tendency to over/under rate stuff.
Ill be posting stuff on Mario soon, and I can help out with RosaLuma and Ness as well.
-TsarofToon
(P.S I want to change my name to DeLares, cause when I start going to tournaments that's the tag I want to use. Is there anyway I can do that?)

 

[theyellowigreninja]

Yes, I know we're on Mario, but I can't help with that. At all. Also, I don't know most of the tech for either character, so I could be off a bit (Like, I can Glide Toss, and I know about Quick Attack Canceling, but I don't know everything)

So, I see we have little to no information on the Pikachu matchup, and as an aspiring (but not very good) Pikachu main, I'm here to help (or at least, lay the base work for discussion in a few weeks, after we figure out Mario).

Pikachu is fast! We can't wall him out as effectively as, say, Bowser or something, and with Quick Attack he can get in very well. And while we don't get comboed as hard as Heavies or Fast Fallers, He can still rack up damage on us.

But, we have a defense - Range. We have a sword and 3 projectiles. We can still wall him a little bit, but with our disjointed attacked like f-tilt, zair and bair, Pikachu has a bit of a hard time getting in. He also gets caught up in boomerang shenanigans and up tilt strings. Pikachu doesn't have any tools to get out of combos (unlike Toon Link, with bombs and returning boomerangs), so he is a tad more susceptible to our combos in general.

Now, Recovery. Toon Link doesn't have the best recovery, and Pikachu kind of does. It's gonna be real easy for Pikachu to edgeguard us if we aren't careful, what with Thunder and all that. We do have bombs and stuff, but Pikachu has good jumps and, again, an insane recovery. We aren't going to be able to edgeguard him.

In the Neutral, Pikachu kind of does well. He can move around fast (especially on Battlefield, Dreamland, or Town and City), has a good projectile, and can start combos well. We have our wall of projectiles, but again, it won't be as effective as it would be on heavies.

Any other time, Pikachu has good combos and can escape from combos sort of well, but we have some good tools to stay away and tack on damage. All in all, I would say it's 45:55 (in Pikachus favor). If you're on Dreamland, it's 60:40 (I'm not kidding, Dreamland is actually Insane)

 

[TsarofToon]

Yes, I know we're on Mario, but I can't help with that. At all. Also, I don't know most of the tech for either character, so I could be off a bit (Like, I can Glide Toss, and I know about Quick Attack Canceling, but I don't know everything)

So, I see we have little to no information on the Pikachu matchup, and as an aspiring (but not very good) Pikachu main, I'm here to help (or at least, lay the base work for discussion in a few weeks, after we figure out Mario).

Pikachu is fast! We can't wall him out as effectively as, say, Bowser or something, and with Quick Attack he can get in very well. And while we don't get comboed as hard as Heavies or Fast Fallers, He can still rack up damage on us.

But, we have a defense - Range. We have a sword and 3 projectiles. We can still wall him a little bit, but with our disjointed attacked like f-tilt, zair and bair, Pikachu has a bit of a hard time getting in. He also gets caught up in boomerang shenanigans and up tilt strings. Pikachu doesn't have any tools to get out of combos (unlike Toon Link, with bombs and returning boomerangs), so he is a tad more susceptible to our combos in general.

Now, Recovery. Toon Link doesn't have the best recovery, and Pikachu kind of does. It's gonna be real easy for Pikachu to edgeguard us if we aren't careful, what with Thunder and all that. We do have bombs and stuff, but Pikachu has good jumps and, again, an insane recovery. We aren't going to be able to edgeguard him.

In the Neutral, Pikachu kind of does well. He can move around fast (especially on Battlefield, Dreamland, or Town and City), has a good projectile, and can start combos well. We have our wall of projectiles, but again, it won't be as effective as it would be on heavies.

Any other time, Pikachu has good combos and can escape from combos sort of well, but we have some good tools to stay away and tack on damage. All in all, I would say it's 45:55 (in Pikachus favor). If you're on Dreamland, it's 60:40 (I'm not kidding, Dreamland is actually Insane)

Thanks for that. If anyone wants to do differnt characters we havent covered, go ahead. Order doesn't really matter anyway.

 

[Lomogoto]

pika also dies super early in this match up, but reading QA is essential. i now play toon, but used to play pika against my friends toon link. pika normally wants to break our zone with quick attack, but if toon link reads that, forward smash and up air catch it easily and hurt. using first swing of fsmash from the other side of the stage can be a very safe way of slowing down the approach and making them think first about quick attacks. up air when they are on the ledge can keep them honest and not getting back to neutral for free.

 

[theyellowigreninja]

pika also dies super early in this match up, but reading QA is essential. i now play toon, but used to play pika against my friends toon link. pika normally wants to break our zone with quick attack, but if toon link reads that, forward smash and up air catch it easily and hurt. using first swing of fsmash from the other side of the stage can be a very safe way of slowing down the approach and making them think first about quick attacks. up air when they are on the ledge can keep them honest and not getting back to neutral for free.

Yeah, fair enough, but keep in mind that Pikachu has a pretty good combo game, and if he reads the F-smash, you're in trouble, not to mention he can come at you from above with d-air (which short-hop auto-cancels). It's also super hard to gimp Pika, but if they are on the ledge with you above them, Pika can't do much. Also, I forgot to mention that b-reverse Thunder is a great edgegaurding tool and makes it harder to recover for us, with our linear recovery and all.