Tomafia 4: Game Over - Mafia Wins!

[Lore]

So with that said, it seems our lynch is going to be either werekill or tewnlenk.

ever since D1, I never liked werekill and his post. Granted, I saw no one really as town, but gut was getting some scummy vibes from werekill's posts and votes early on. I know a lot of people have made claims of town leans on him, but I haven't seen it at all throughout D1 or D2. I had SB on null for a long while, but I can at least see why they think HE is townie. As D2 went on, I still couldn't say for certain that he was town, but I definetely had more trust in his contribution/towniness as he kept posting. Werekill, however, didn't look better in D2 and I get that he trying to buddy up SB while doing his best to look good to the other players.

Tewnlink I had no problems with D1. they were null, but they were also new players (which is why I was KINDLY asking werekill and SB to slow down and let others like Tewnlink post so we can get more of an idea of how they think/who their scum reads are. They were somewhat contributing on D1. D2 however, I saw a lot of parroting. It was somewhat expected, but it wasn't going to fly by me...especially with how they thought from D2 to D3

You have been extraordinarily vague on your read of me. You say that your "gut" is what fuels your read on me, and you give pretty loose reasons here on your read. The "buddying" point in particular is brought up for the first time with zero evidence, just the vague "he looked worse D2, and he was buddying."

I vaguely remember you saying D2 that your wanting of my lynch was based around my interactions with --- and their claim. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, since you have consistently said mine or ---'s lynch would "give us information."

Here's the quote for the above^ It's post 364

Just like how I was angry on werekill responding to some of the allegations to --- and his breadcrumb, and how he responded to them.

Where is that "angry" feeling now? Why was that your apparent reason D2, but now on D3, you say it was only your "gut" D1?

Like let me sum up the situation from my perspective. You act extremely hesitant D1 with voting or really actions in general, offering up no solution to your proposed "problem" of activity. You then have me and --- as your lynch pool, for information lynches. D2, you say that your desire for a lynch there remains, and you explain that by saying it's because of the --- claim situation.

I bring up my points about ---'s claim (plus the setup info), and you drop your vote. But then you unvote for ---, saying you guess you won't be voting today.

Then what do you do? You bring up your suspicion of --- again and don't put your vote on them.

Only because of how --- breadcrumbed his role. It just seems suspect, and I don't like it. One could say it's townie gambit (for what he's risking, I have no idea), but still find it to be scum since pi wasted no time in trying to fake claim.

but whatever, i'll believe in the two possible setups for now.

^This was your last post for D2, where you bring up your suspicion of --- again.


Now let's look at today. After two full days of building up me and --- as information lynches (with --- clearly in the lead for your lynch pool), you drop --- entirely. Instead you bring up me, your lynch candidate where you have barely backed it up.

Where did --- go in your pool, Rockin? Why is your new top candidate a player who you have been consistently vague on? Tewn feels tossed in here as a lazy afterthought.

This reeks of a scum player having set up two potential lynches all game, then pushing hard on one LateGame with the same vague reasoning.


And that's before I've gone into your coasting yesterday.


I feel comfortable with Vote: Rockin here. You're by far the scummiest player between you and Tewn.

 

[Strong Badam]

So you'd say that Tewn reads as slightly scummy to you due to inactivity?

Rather, active lurking, from Rockin's perspective.

 

[Lore]

ANYWAY, I counterclaimed cause I thought it was a mafia goon trying to claim vanilla townie. Some people may say that it's weird, but from a Mafia prespective, it would be terrible play on my part. Cause if he did flip vanilla townie, I would've been on the chopping block garanteed. There was also the possibility of me dying on D2. No bueno on either side.

After a short reread of his big post, something stood out to me. This could be confirmation bias, but I'm suspecting that it's not.

This part here makes the entire counterclaim situation feel like a "safe" way to earn some town points. After all the discussion of the setup up to that point, I legitimately doubt that someone could still mistakenly believe the game is all power roles + 1 vanilla.

Like it had been the subject of 2-3 fairly in depth convos by then.

With that in mind, I can see this counterclaim as scum behavior, set up for toDay so that you can argue why you, as scum, wouldn't have made that claim. It's easy town cred.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'd like to ask that no one else vote to lynch Rockin (since it would put him at L-1) for now. It's critical we get all the discussion we can out of the day. I have a lot to say about who we should lynch but not the time to write it up clearly until after work today. I'm trying to ask good questions in the meantime and keep up with the discussion.

 

[Lore]

I'd like to ask that no one else vote to lynch Rockin (since it would put him at L-1) for now. It's critical we get all the discussion we can out of the day. I have a lot to say about who we should lynch but not the time to write it up clearly until after work today. I'm trying to ask good questions in the meantime and keep up with the discussion.

I agree with not needing to put him at L-1 today, but let's be real here. Anyone who would hammer this quick would be incredibly dumb. It would guarantee their lynch toMorrow, assuming the game continued.

I feel safe keeping my vote on Rockin toDay. He is my Scum read.

 

[Strong Badam]

Lore Could you elaborate on why you feel Tewn is scummy? I feel like he has been a bit of an active lurker, but upon re-reading and taking a look at his vote history, I feel like he's just a newbie townie. Check Matunas' #339 for some reasoning on why I had that concern as well.

I'm pretty confident in my townread on him now. Notably, he was the 2nd player on the <Pi wagon. I just don't see him bussing like that in this format. I don't think a new player nor an experienced player would want to do that.

 

[Lore]

Lore Could you elaborate on why you feel Tewn is scummy? I feel like he has been a bit of an active lurker, but upon re-reading and taking a look at his vote history, I feel like he's just a newbie townie. Check Matunas' #339 for some reasoning on why I had that concern as well.

I'm pretty confident in my townread on him now. Notably, he was the 2nd player on the <Pi wagon. I just don't see him bussing like that in this format. I don't think a new player nor an experienced player would want to do that.

For me it's less that I have him as scum, more that he's in my lynch pool.

I see you as having a Cop-Innocent on you. Confirmed Town imo.

I still see ---'s gambit as a Town player, and I'm unable to see any reason Scum would do it. So Town Read there too.

This logically leaves Rockin and Tewn. Rockin has been odd all game, and the only thing softening my view previously was the idea around the probability of Pi and Rockin having the same view early as scum. It is softening my view no longer, given his post where he dropped --- as a lynch candidate entirely.

Tewn has been a bit wishy-washy (no offense Tewn), and it could either be newbie town or newbie scum. Given my hard scum read on Rockin, I believe it to be Newbie Town again. I'm still going to reread them and decide further, but they do seem like the Town player between Rockin and Tewn.

 

[Strong Badam]

OK cool, thanks for the elaboration. Werekill, do you feel like there is any other behavior from --- that is alignment indicative? I get that you personally concluded that his roleclaim stuff does not read as scummy to you (and is, instead towny). Is there anything else contributing to why you feel he's town? Is there perhaps anything that reads scummy, but you've still resigned your read of him as Town as a result of the roleclaim?

 

[Lore]

OK cool, thanks for the elaboration. Werekill, do you feel like there is any other behavior from --- that is alignment indicative? I get that you personally concluded that his roleclaim stuff does not read as scummy to you (and is, instead towny). Is there anything else contributing to why you feel he's town? Is there perhaps anything that reads scummy, but you've still resigned your read of him as Town as a result of the roleclaim?

I also feel that after they got called out on coasting, they came in with interesting, well-thought-out points and reads. From then on, they have gone pretty in-depth with angles that hadn't been considered yet.

Matunas may have been town, but --- bringing them up was new and interesting. Matunas had been touched on before, but not that in depth. I'm not sure Scum would have made the effort to bring up a brand new player and go all in like that, especially with how Matunas was a bit less active than the rest.

Correct me if I'm misremembering --- being the first to really go ham on Matunas though.

 

[Tom]

Vote Count:
Rockin (1): Werekill
Not voting (4): Strong Bad, TewnLeenk, Rockin, ---

Day 3 will end Saturday, April 6 at 5:30 pm Central or when a player reaches 3/5 votes.

 

[Rockin]

Sweet, thanks for your contribution Rockin. If you don't mind, I have some questions about a few of your reads and thoughts.

Do you feel like Werekill joined in on the <Pi grilling so early as a bus attempt? While he was the 3rd vote, the storyline is basically like this:
Werekill initiates RVS with a vote on ---.
<Pi overreacts to RVS
Myself and Werekill consistently grill him throughout the day on this and other issues.
<Pi is eventually lynched and flips scum.
Do you think <pi's overreaction to RVS would have occurred if the player initiating RVS was scum? To me, that reads as a bizarre day 1 bus in a scenario where <Pi was not even under suspicion yet.

So you'd say that Tewn reads as slightly scummy to you due to inactivity?
Additionally, have you considered that Tewn was the second vote on <Pi in this read? Does that information change your read at all?

No, i don't think it was a bus attempt. I think in his mind, he was in the semi joking/random vote phase and just wanted to spice things up till he found a real target (which was me, as he threw a vote my way).

Hard to say if the overreaction to it was genuine/playing along, but it did fuel his downfall and werekill eventually had to jump in on it seeing as I wasn't the lynch D1

on tewnlenk, less of inactivity, and more of just parroting/flipping reads left and right. Up till now, he hasn't said much about my scumness and mostly had me as null (well wait, I believe he thought I was scumlean D2, but it was mostly just to weird play/having a hard time figuring me out).

I need to reread D1 with him and get back to you on that. I'm about to head to work, so you won't see much of me till like...2AM EST my time

You have been extraordinarily vague on your read of me. You say that your "gut" is what fuels your read on me, and you give pretty loose reasons here on your read. The "buddying" point in particular is brought up for the first time with zero evidence, just the vague "he looked worse D2, and he was buddying."

I vaguely remember you saying D2 that your wanting of my lynch was based around my interactions with --- and their claim. Please correct me if I'm wrong there, since you have consistently said mine or ---'s lynch would "give us information."

Here's the quote for the above^ It's post 364



Where is that "angry" feeling now? Why was that your apparent reason D2, but now on D3, you say it was only your "gut" D1?

Like let me sum up the situation from my perspective. You act extremely hesitant D1 with voting or really actions in general, offering up no solution to your proposed "problem" of activity. You then have me and --- as your lynch pool, for information lynches. D2, you say that your desire for a lynch there remains, and you explain that by saying it's because of the --- claim situation.

I bring up my points about ---'s claim (plus the setup info), and you drop your vote. But then you unvote for ---, saying you guess you won't be voting today.

Then what do you do? You bring up your suspicion of --- again and don't put your vote on them.



^This was your last post for D2, where you bring up your suspicion of --- again.


Now let's look at today. After two full days of building up me and --- as information lynches (with --- clearly in the lead for your lynch pool), you drop --- entirely. Instead you bring up me, your lynch candidate where you have barely backed it up.

Where did --- go in your pool, Rockin? Why is your new top candidate a player who you have been consistently vague on? Tewn feels tossed in here as a lazy afterthought.

This reeks of a scum player having set up two potential lynches all game, then pushing hard on one LateGame with the same vague reasoning.


And that's before I've gone into your coasting yesterday.


I feel comfortable with Vote: Rockin here. You're by far the scummiest player between you and Tewn.

I just come to the conclusion that you just don't like reading, or at least, reading what you want to read. And that's pretty sad considering Mafia games is all about carefully reading (then again, I did kinda ****ed up on the setup prespective, so POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK LOL)

Anyway, the semi legit reasoning I had was your interactions with Strong Bad, and how you kept trying to buddy up to him. I specifically said I didn't like how you were answering SB's/others questions in terms of ---'s motives behind his breadcrumb since it defeats the purpose of pressure. mafias can latch onto the other person's idea if it's convincing enough (and even do slight twists to further cement it). My vote drop because I had to begrudgingly accept the setup shown to me. After the medi flip, I come to accept it more. I'm also going under the belief that this s townie gambit from ---, so I no longer have a reason to lynch him

After a short reread of his big post, something stood out to me. This could be confirmation bias, but I'm suspecting that it's not.

This part here makes the entire counterclaim situation feel like a "safe" way to earn some town points. After all the discussion of the setup up to that point, I legitimately doubt that someone could still mistakenly believe the game is all power roles + 1 vanilla.

Like it had been the subject of 2-3 fairly in depth convos by then.

With that in mind, I can see this counterclaim as scum behavior, set up for toDay so that you can argue why you, as scum, wouldn't have made that claim. It's easy town cred.

example one of me convinced you don't like reading.

HOW DOES THIS EARN ME TOWN CRED, ESPECIALLY WITH HOW --- WAS ALMOST LYNCHED FOR THE BREADCRUMBING THAT HE DID?

If --- was lynched and flipped Vanilla townie, I would've died D3. The game is over, town wins.
If I was lynched D2 as mafia, the game is over, town wins.

There is no ****ing way in hell I as mafia would benefit from either of this scenarios. it's dumb. VERY dumb

Tom may need to fix the thread. it says april 3, instead of april 6

Now then, I have to go to work. you guys can leave questions for me to answer and I'll respond as soon as I come back from work

 

[Lore]

I'm going to take a break from the game this afternoon.

To be accused and personally attacked over "not reading?" Coming from the person who has not been reading this entire thread, even the setup discussion?

I'm a bit tilted and would rather wait to respond.

 

[Lore]

Actually no, **** it. I'm at least replying to this one bit.

example one of me convinced you don't like reading.

HOW DOES THIS EARN ME TOWN CRED, ESPECIALLY WITH HOW --- WAS ALMOST LYNCHED FOR THE BREADCRUMBING THAT HE DID?

If --- was lynched and flipped Vanilla townie, I would've died D3. The game is over, town wins.
If I was lynched D2 as mafia, the game is over, town wins.

There is no ****ing way in hell I as mafia would benefit from either of this scenarios. it's dumb. VERY dumb

Tom may need to fix the thread. it says april 3, instead of april 6

Now then, I have to go to work. you guys can leave questions for me to answer and I'll respond as soon as I come back from work

" I legitimately doubt that someone could still mistakenly believe the game is all power roles + 1 vanilla. "

Said in my post, the exact post where you're accusing me of "not reading." To be the one saying I'm not reading, you're being extremely frustrating. You even prove you didn't read by arguing from the perspective of someone who believed they were the only VT.

I am saying that I find it hard to believe someone would still have that mistaken belief about the setup.

I am saying that you were lying about thinking the game was all PR +1 vanilla.

 

[Strong Badam]

Anyway, the semi legit reasoning I had was your interactions with Strong Bad, and how you kept trying to buddy up to him.

Do you think the fact that Day 2's wagon started from Werekill and had little to do with me changes this at all? Werekill was gunning for Mediocre basically from the start of the day (without any scumreads on Mediocre from me, to my knowledge, I actually believe my day 1 scum reads were Pi, ---, and Rockin), whereas my vote ended up on --- until I realized he was at L-1 and subsequently unvoted. Werekill was also engaged in a fairly intense 1v1 with Mediocre for most of the day, and didn't let off until my post #325 trying to break it up. I saw very few people trying to participate in the discussion itself, but most did draw conclusions from it.

Additionally, I find Rockin dropping his vote on --- and then not voting to not be very scummy. He was cooperating with the will of the town at that point from my perspective. As he said, he was going to be AFK until after the deadline, so he could have concluded that his vote on --- which no longer had his original basis was harmful to town. --- frequently disappears for 12+ hours at a time while claiming real life obligations, which I haven't seen anyone question (nor do I question it). Is Tewn scummy for not voting? Only 4 people could be on the lynch vote yesterday.

 

[Strong Badam]

And fundamentally, I just really question the value of pursuing a 1v1 so aggressively after Mediocre's mislynch. The possibility of it being TownvTown is very real and we should be careful here. I feel like we'd learn a lot more about both Werekill and Rockin as well as the game state in general if we discussed other things. It's probably the most appealing train of discussion to have since nothing else has presented itself, so let me try offering an alternative.

How about we do some comprehensive vote count analysis from both day 1 and 2, including unsuccessful wagons and RVS? Take a look at who voted for whom and when, coloring in confirmed role flips. Did the votes result in a reaction from anyone? If a wagon dissipated, what interactions resulted in it? Without accounting for what your current leans are, does anything stick out to you? I've done some work here already and it's the primary basis for what I plan to post this evening, among other interactions. It'd be helpful to me if I had the uninfluenced perspectives of others when I go through my notes again and prepare them for general consumption.

 

[Lore]

Additionally, I find Rockin dropping his vote on --- and then not voting to not be very scummy. He was cooperating with the will of the town at that point from my perspective. As he said, he was going to be AFK until after the deadline, so he could have concluded that his vote on --- which no longer had his original basis was harmful to town. --- frequently disappears for 12+ hours at a time while claiming real life obligations, which I haven't seen anyone question (nor do I question it). Is Tewn scummy for not voting? Only 4 people could be on the lynch vote yesterday.

The issue is that they dropped both the vote and the scum read, by all appearances on D3. Meanwhile, Rockin kept me in their lynch pool despite myself being paired with --- in Rockin's previous reasoning.

The unvote is fine in isolation. When combined with the vague reasoning behind the push against me and the lack of --- in the lynch pool toDay, it makes the push toDay feel insubstantial and forced.


I'm fine with waiting until vote count analysis, but I'm decently busy tonight. Hopefully less tomorrow. If you have any specific questions for my perspective on something, tag me and I'll answer.

However, my vote will remain on Rockin until I'm somehow convinced otherwise. I still have him as a hard Scum read.

 

[Strong Badam]

I believe this is all of the votes that have occurred in the game. Of course, there is a plethora of other cases where a player claims another be scummy but did not vote. I urge you all to re-read the thread and pay close attention to how our confirmed dead Townies played, and what players said about them while they were around (and even after they were gone!).

However, votes are often very telling since lynching is the most powerful tool at Town's disposal.

Day 1

#44 Werekill votes --- - RVS
#45 <π reacts to it.
#53 <π again responds to the initial vote on --- unfavorably
#57 Strong Bad votes --- - RVS
#66 Werekill unvotes --- votes <π - Answer questions
#87 <π vote Rockin - Nonsense reason
#109 Werekill unvotes <π votes Rockin -
#112 Matunas vote TewnLeenk - RVS
#130 --- votes Mediocre, seems to be RVS.
#133 Matunas vote Rockin - mistake (#134 and #143)
#143 Matunas unvote Rockin
#176 Strong Bad votes <π
#189 <π says his Rockin vote isn’t a joke anymore.
#192 TewnLeenk votes <π
#194 Werekill votes <π
#209 Rockin votes <π
#217 --- unvotes Mediocre
#234 --- votes Rockin - claims he wants to hear more from <π and TewnLeenk day 2
#256 Matunas votes <π, lynch.
<π flips as Mafia Rolecop
Pythag, Town Tracker, is killed during night phase.

Day 2

#265 Matunas votes ---
#290 Rockin votes ---
#298 Strong Bad votes --- (L-1)
#306 Werekill votes Mediocre
#312 Strong Bad unvotes --- to prevent --- from being at hammer range.
Werekill vs Mediocre 1v1 breaks out
Rockin’s understanding of the game setup comes into question
#381 Rockin unvotes ---
#393 Matunas unvotes --- votes Mediocre
#401 --- votes Mediocre
#410 Mediocre votes ---
#415 Strong Bad votes Mediocre, Lynch
Mediocre flips as Vanilla Townie.
Matunas, Town Cop, is killed during night phase.

Day 3

#441 Werekill votes Rockin



I will continue to use the evening to write up my thoughts. I hope my work here helps you all do the same.

 

[Rockin]

I'm going to take a break from the game this afternoon.

To be accused and personally attacked over "not reading?" Coming from the person who has not been reading this entire thread, even the setup discussion?

I'm a bit tilted and would rather wait to respond.

I just come to the conclusion that you just don't like reading, or at least, reading what you want to read. And that's pretty sad considering Mafia games is all about carefully reading (then again, I did kinda ****ed up on the setup prespective, so POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK LOL)

Example 2

Pot calling the kettle black - 'An expression that is said when one accuses another person of that which they are equally guilty of. '

Do you think the fact that Day 2's wagon started from Werekill and had little to do with me changes this at all? Werekill was gunning for Mediocre basically from the start of the day (without any scumreads on Mediocre from me, to my knowledge, I actually believe my day 1 scum reads were Pi, ---, and Rockin), whereas my vote ended up on --- until I realized he was at L-1 and subsequently unvoted. Werekill was also engaged in a fairly intense 1v1 with Mediocre for most of the day, and didn't let off until my post #325 trying to break it up. I saw very few people trying to participate in the discussion itself, but most did draw conclusions from it.

Offhand, I don't think so. I believe others had scum lean/null on medi, and were just willing to lynch him because he was one of the two people on the chopping block. I want to do a reread on that and answer this a bit better with certaincy.

In fact, while at work I was mulling over several things and thus I would need a reread. This'll help me explain better in regards of tewnlink as well as other pressing matters that I kinda realized

 

[---]

Off of work, am starting to get back on schedule after the mess the was yesterday for me. I will try to respond to events i missed as quickly as I can.

 

[---]

What prompts this statement? The only member of the <Pi vote that has died is Matunas and they flipped town. Could you explain why you feel this way?

Aside from myself, all other remaining players were apart of the <Pi bandwagon. Except for Matunas, who was the hammer and could earn town cred (206 post), I gave some leeway for those who voted and were ultimately correct.

A scum player abandoning ship onto a 5 player bandwagon on Day 1 before anything is set is stone (2 votes on Rockin & Pythag/Mediocre had yet to cast) would be a weird play to make in my mind so it was a theory I had downplayed. Though that's not to say looking at the order of votes and reasoning doesn't warrant a re-read: SB -> TL -> WK -> Rockin -> Matunas

You started the bandwagon and kept your vote on them the longest, plus Matunas's read puts you as the most likely townie in my mind.

 

[Lore]

Strong Badam Thanks for the voting history! I wish smashboards had a feature that allowed for easy linking to posts like the @ tagging feature for users. It'd be way easier to see the context with that.

But simplifying it down does have some clear uses. I'm going to think it over a bit, but I suspect my read of Rockin will remain the same.

Example 2

Pot calling the kettle black - 'An expression that is said when one accuses another person of that which they are equally guilty of. '

... I'm literally saying that you did it AGAIN in the same post, beyond your "pot calling the kettle black" example with the setup.

Please drop this "you're not reading" point, it feels incredibly condescending and hypocritical, and it is tilting me.

 

[Rockin]

... I'm literally saying that you did it AGAIN in the same post, beyond your "pot calling the kettle black" example with the setup.

Please drop this "you're not reading" point, it feels incredibly condescending and hypocritical, and it is tilting me.

Good. Also we'll see, but likely no.

I hope to hear some question from twenlink. He gots me as scum, and I rather he contributes to questioning me (and not have strong bad and werekill do it).

 

[Lore]

Good. Also we'll see, but likely no.

I hope to hear some question from twenlink. He gots me as scum, and I rather he contributes to questioning me (and not have strong bad and werekill do it).

If people are allowed to ask me to stop and then expect me to stop, I'm certainly allowed to do the same with you.

To then say "good" in response to my issue is beyond unacceptable.

 

[Rockin]

If people are allowed to ask me to stop and then expect me to stop, I'm certainly allowed to do the same with you.

To then say "good" in response to my issue is beyond unacceptable.

Hahah alright, fair point. I shall stop then.

Now, I must get back to this reread

 

[Lore]

Thanks, I appreciate the understanding.

 

[TewnLeenk]

Just a heads up, I'm traveling today. Going to try be as active as I can on my phone while I'm out of town. Apologies in advance if my posts look like jumbled filth from mobile goofiness.

Rockin I guess the two things I'd like to hear an explanation on (you can just quote what you already said in case I missed it on my crappy phone) is the game understanding thing and why you're after Werekill?

Also, as of right now I have you as a slight scumlean just because I'm getting Town and Null vibes from everyone else. So it's mostly just a process of elimination at this point for me.

 

[Tom]

Vote Count:
Rockin (1): Werekill
Not voting (4): Strong Bad, TewnLeenk, Rockin, ---

Day 3 will end Saturday, April 6 at 5:30 pm Central or when a player reaches 3/5 votes.

 

[Lore]

Just a heads up, I'm traveling today. Going to try be as active as I can on my phone while I'm out of town. Apologies in advance if my posts look like jumbled filth from mobile goofiness.

Rockin I guess the two things I'd like to hear an explanation on (you can just quote what you already said in case I missed it on my crappy phone) is the game understanding thing and why you're after Werekill?

Also, as of right now I have you as a slight scumlean just because I'm getting Town and Null vibes from everyone else. So it's mostly just a process of elimination at this point for me.

No worries on traveling, be safe.

 

[Rockin]

Rockin Rockin I guess the two things I'd like to hear an explanation on (you can just quote what you already said in case I missed it on my crappy phone) is the game understanding thing and why you're after Werekill?

Also, as of right now I have you as a slight scumlean just because I'm getting Town and Null vibes from everyone else. So it's mostly just a process of elimination at this point for me.

I will explain better once I'm done with the reread.

also that reasoning from how I went from scum to scumlean makes absolutly little sense

 

[Lore]

I will explain better once I'm done with the reread.

also that reasoning from how I went from scum to scumlean makes absolutly little sense

Rockin, I'm going to refrain from reading you further until you post your new content.

I think your new content will either settle me further into my scumread on you or soften it a bit. My current reread has shown me nothing that has changed my opinion, but late-game actions and reads are incredibly potent. Continuing my reread after you post your stuff will give me further late-game context.

 

[Strong Badam]

Cool, so, after toDay’s discussion and last Night’s role flips I have concluded who I want to lynch toDay.

For half of the remaining players, I removed them from my pool via elimination based on D1 behavior. The other two, I looked over pretty deeply trying to discern alignment.

Process of Elimination: Werekill and TewnLeenk

I got on <π's ass immediately Day 1 due to his RVS Friction (following Werekill's vote on ---). I was the first vote on him in post #176.
TewnLeenk voted second. Would a newer player be the 2nd person on the wagon to bus a scumbuddy? I really don’t think so.
Werekill voted next, but had also participated in the grilling a lot. If he were scum, would he have have voted --- and told <π to react that way? Would he have then grilled <π and been consistently against him throughout the day? I don’t think so, not with the rest of the game’s roleflips.

Did one of us three bus? 2v7 heavily discourages D1 bussing as a strategy. Also bussing straight out the gate is very different than hopping on a wagon as the 4rd or 5th vote. I think a new player bussing their scumbuddy D1 is highly unlikely, and I think that the way Werekill drove discussion toward <π’s lynch on that day also clears him.

So, I am reading both TewnLeenk and Werekill as town.

That leaves me with Rockin and --- as my potential scumleans/my D3 lynch pool. I took a look at these two. What I did was I went through all of their posts in order and looked for inconsistencies, anything that didn’t add up, when they hopped on/off wagons, and how their votes looked like after roleflips. Something neat that I noticed is that both night kills (Pythag and Matunas) were players who had never been voted on. That’s not really uncommon though, scum tends to leave alive players for whom a case to lynch exists.

Regarding Rockin: Unfortunately, my reasoning here will be a lot less comprehensive than my reasoning for ---, because I didn’t find him to be that scummy during my re-read. I did go completely through his body of work in this thread and I now feel like D2 Rockin's play was simply weird/poor and not scummy. Why would scum call into question the format of the game when absolutely no one was trying to vote for them, when the Mediocre wagon was progressed so far? <π did that D1 to no avail. All this did was eventually weaken the --- wagon significantly really and scum would have little reason to do that unless they planned to point it out later. Rockin’s weirdness D2 actually made me less interested in the --- wagon, after additionally being spooked off of the wagon itself because I had accidentally put --- at L-1 somewhat early in the Day. I don’t find Werekill’s argument that this behavior is a setup for towncred to be particularly compelling.

I’m willing to believe that Rockin simply made a clerical error regarding the game setup. Several confirmed townies made errors earlier in the game, so I can’t really fault him for this. If anything, someone being too careful would be a bit concerning, no?

That leads me to my only scumlean of Day 3.

---

Interestingly enough, the only remaining player that WASN'T on the <π lynch wagon D1 was --- voting for Rockin. In and of itself, this isn’t alignment indicative, but it is weird that he never mentioned <π’s vote count despite posting while he was at L-1. --- also was on the Mediocre wagon Day 2 as the second vote, after he himself had reached L-1!

---’s roleclaim stuff is weird, has always been weird, etc. It’s been a sticking point the whole game to me for a variety of reasons and I’d like to see where everyone stands after I go through it with a fine-toothed comb. The roleclaim stuff is actually his very first posts of substance in the thread. I think the roleclaim stuff is at the heart of the issue, and most other things about --- stem from it. If --- (or bystanders) are able to convince players that the roleclaim was genuine, most else about ---’s play this game is easy to conclude as towny of not alignment-indicative. The main thing though is that there’s an unshakeable association that --- and <π have with each other from the very beginning phases of the game.

At the beginning of the game, Werekill voted ---. <π's reaction is what ultimately sealed his fate. Following this reaction to RVS, he never said jack **** about --- outside of a town read in #153/ #190, until #221 and #243 when he was already at hammer status (this flailing tends to be full of WIFOM, so I won't try to actually read something, but it is notable that there is little mention of --- throughout the day). What I’d like you to ask yourselves is: do we think <π would have reacted that way to a vote on a townie?

Let’s take a closer look at the interactions from Day 1. Here’s what my re-read got me.

March 27th
#47 chocolate
#64 strawberry
#110 Vanilla
#130 Votes Mediocre
-This is just RVS stuff.
March 28th
#144

My weekend is over so I have to work tonight. My activity will be down until tomorrow morning.

More or less for now. I've laid out my clues and don't have much else to say beyond wanting to poke other people into posting, if only to keep the conversation going like everyone else. I can't really say I've noticed a definitive flow to Day 1, beyond past games where Mayors try and prove themselves out of the gate.

Am willing to give a role claim in Night PMs to any interested party, no strings attached.

Was --- ever truly “active”? He had posted a few times, but with little substance. Worth noting is that prior to this post, no one had said anything regarding posts #47 #64 #110 as being indicative of his role. I’d say it’s possible that --- brought up his clues and night PMs to force the playerbase to think of a roleclaim on his part.

#161

Making a mistake? I don't know whether to be flattered or nervous (I definitely want feedback from you mafia vets after the game is over, I can tell you all come from more conservative play setups than I am used to).

If you think you have picked up on my clues feel free to state them for others. My only strategy is being blunt.

--- more or less prompts the field of players to search his posts for clues (once again after #144, following most of the players being more concerned about Night PMs talk), and since he’s made like 8 of them with 0 readlists at this point, it’s easy for anyone to find the intended clues. He claims his strategy is to be blunt, but he refuses to elaborate on what role he is claiming until another person does so. (Werekill in #162).

There’s a pretty big gap here where he’s answering questions that aren’t that important (like what his mafia experience is). He acts very cordially and does not create conflict. While this is going on, <π’s vote count skyrockets from 1 to 4 between post #176 and #209. --- had posted in post #181 after only one vote on <π had dropped (with the mafia experience reply), but other then that does not participate.

Then:
#217

<π - Am willing to brush aside the brag as I'm also re-learning the game in some aspects, but I'd like to hear more beyond SB/Rockin.

Rockin - Besides the post asking SB/WK to tone it down, your aggressiveness strikes me in a different way than SB/WK. I'm curious as to what you have to say in regards to Pythag's read on you if you've played together before. Role claiming I feel is important and dismissing it, unlike SB/WK, I have to question.

TewnLeenk - Your posts are the most brief. You're new but I'd like to see your further thoughts.

Werekill - You're active and I feel you've given the most thought in terms of your reads as the phase has progressed.

Mediocre - Very null, but thank you for replying in depth. I'd like to see you post more. Unvote

Strong Bad - Active and adamant. I think you're the alpha player right now. I remember towns being led to their doom before, but for the moment it's hard to disagree with your current dedication on Day 1. That said, though you have the right idea, I think you need to re-read my clues slightly.

Pythag - I'm not sure if targeting active players is a good strategy, at least Day One. Could you explain you're read on TewnLeenk more?

Matunas - I agree with your recent analysis thus far, but I don't have enough to swing me either way.

<π/Rockin I'm getting the largest scum vibes from. TewnLeenk slightly, but I'm willing to chalk some of that to inexperience.

This is ---’s first scumlean list. This is after <π’s at hammer range, but he asks <π for more reads. ---’s list is mostly nulls with scumleans on <π and Rockin and a very slight lean on TewnLeenk. He also “corrects” my read of his breadcrumb in #162. This correction is performed after it’s clear that <π is getting lynched, he had been at L-1 since #209. Why didn’t he do this in post #164 or #181? And in none of these 3 posts does he comment on the status of <π’s vote count.
In this post, he also refers to <π’s Mafia win brag that happened earlier in the game (#74), which hadn’t been referred to in quite a while. It seems odd to me to bring it up over 100 posts later.
For his next post, we need <π’s post #221 since --- directly replied to it.

trihy (good nick) could be making a fake claim... but just given how early it was revealed... I dont know. Feels like a pretty bad play to me regardless of alignment.

--- why would you announce a role day 1?

Noteworthy is that <π is at L-1 here when he does this, pretty soon after #217.

Besides reads, I feel I would be of better service to the town in being as upfront as possible. Am not really making a gamble in my mind, though I can see the thought process behind much of what has been said and do not fault anyone for thinking that way.

Getting leads for the town to follow on Day One is important, arguably more so than gut feelings IMO.

“I would be of better service to town in being as upfront as possible”
If --- finds himself most useful by being “as upfront as possible,” why not directly claim vanilla townie then?
It’s possible that this is a bit of a disconnected setup for scumbuddies since at this point it’s really clear that <π is going to be lynched. <π can ask questions to the field or to ---, allowing him reign to discuss what he wants to prior to the day coming to a close. Between #217, #221, #228, this isn’t too farfetched.

DAY 2

Following pressure from Matunas, --- Claims Vanilla Townie in #279:

Vanilla townie as Werekill guessed first, and SB after I pushed him to correct his original assumption. I wasn't sure about being too blunt on Day One out of the gate, but I also didn't want to contribute nothing either.

Why repeatedly mention being upfront and blunt D1, be vague when it actually comes to your role D1, then immediately roleclaim Vanilla at the start of Day 2? After Town Tracker/Mafia Rolecop are revealed, it’s known that Neapolitan is not a possible role, allowing a pivot to Vanilla Townie. In either case, “vanilla townie” is a safe claim for scum to make because there are 5. At the point where --- actually prodded the player group toward “vanilla townie,” it was when <π was obviously being lynched (as reasoned above)

His response to my post #316 in post #358 was not satisfactory to me, either.

I think you were word-smithing a bit too hard. Primarily in regards to the context. two are them are in response to negative pressure while the other states something affirmative in regards to positive pressure. Of the three, only one of the statements is in regards to the perception of myself.

--- drops breadcrumbs on his roleclaim and tells people to check his clues. Then he gets into arguments over the correct interpretation of his clues. In conjunction with the repeated statements about being blunt and upfront, this feels really wrong to me. Why would you even mention chocolate and strawberry in the first place if you always wanted to claim Vanilla townie? Which of us is truly wordsmithing here? I still don’t believe your logic as to why you weren’t claiming Neapolitan, the “chocolate” phrasing is indeed about you here, contrary to your reasoning. I can’t resolve this behavior with anything other than your being scum.

Matunas is my other scum lean. They've been fairly opportunistic throughout the entire game thus far such as changing their votes back and forth between TewnLeenk & Rockin Day 1. They were the last one to vote for <π and the first to jump onto voting for me. Their post #206 also strikes me as leaving a door open for <π to try and defend himself and downplaying potentially being the hammer vote. They were also apart of both <π's town leanings along with Pythag & myself on #153 & #190. Their recent statement regarding Pythag's death as random but also that Mediocre might have planned to associate themselves with their NK strikes me as weird.

#254 What does A1 mean? If I was allied with <π why would they insist on these claims if they theoretically knew in advance I was changing my breadcrumb role claim on the fly due to Night PMs? I had already pushed for SB to re-read my breadcrumbs on #217. Though in general, the last few posts on Day 1 are somewhat non sequiturs I'm not sure I'm correctly picking up on at my current experience level.

Why did you scumlean Matunas for participating in RVS...? Several others did that Day 1 around that time. You voted Mediocre only 3 posts before he voted for Rockin. Your wording is “opportunistic,” even, it’s similar to how <π reacted to myself and Werekill. This is off to me.

In addition, why reply to <π’s flailing? This is just invalid WIFOM about <π’s scum motives when he has little reason to grant Town anything useful while at L-1 and isn’t in a position to hurt Town significantly. Your links to <π posts don't really conclude anything either. They're riddled with caveats which reads as trying to not push an agenda while still bringing it up in case someone latches on. What's up with that?

In #401 --- sets himself up as a player who has a scumread on both Mediocre and Matunas. Since the Mediocre wagon had already begun via Werekill, voting Matunas wouldn’t have accomplished much.

DAY 3

In both #427 and #429 following Mediocre/Matunas flipping town, he is quick to reference his proposed 50/50 in #401.

I think there might have been less potential RNG involved with Matunas's death given my final 50/50 push in my last Day 2 post.

Why bring up your own post as a reason for our Town Cop being targeted...?
There's an argument to be made for why you'd set up Matunas as your scumlean then night kill him. More or less, uncertainty and null reads have been the name of the game for you. No one can claim that you're setting up subsequent lynches after the townie role flip if you do it like this and wait around for a target to surface from the more active players like myself and Werekill.
Some WIFOM to this, but given all the other context I think you’re playing a very cordial, non-confrontational, and “cautious” game while you allow the game state to progress to a point where other players become lynch targets. You’ve been careful to bring up seemingly normal things about other players who aren’t on the chopping block as if they are questionable, without enough conviction for people to call you out on it but with enough for people to think that way. Provided you’re scum, you’re also careful to do this with players you plan to night kill, making yourself “wrong” when you never communicated that you were sure to begin.

So, there’s where I stand. I strongly believe --- is the remaining scum player. If he flips town, I think Rockin is the endgame lynch pick here, but I’ll be super surprised if --- flips town.

I hope my deduction and reasoning was compelling to you all. I’d love to hear what you think and what --- has to say in response. Thanks for reading my rather lengthy post!

 

[Lore]

Great post, SB.

My gut is still saying that there's no reason Scum --- would have made that claim, but I'm going to chew on your post for a while and think on it. I just can't find the scum motivation, unless I missed a theory in your post.

My vote remains on Rockin.

 

[Strong Badam]

That's the thing, IMO he structured it so he could abandon the claim based on day 1 discussion if he needed to. We all concluded he was just shrugging off RVS votes with his choco/strawberry comments. It wasn't until #144 that he brought it up, and if he hadn't it's likely we wouldn't have seen it until day 3 or later when he could have played it off like he has. At that point he could have done this for two reasons:
1. Shift conversation away from <Pi lynch. This happened briefly but by #175 I had gotten back to the <Pi situation.
2. Concluding that his sumbuddy would be lynched, he could have decided that he needed to make an unconventional longterm play to introduce enough variance to make the impending 1v6 possible to win. It could have backfired, but winning as scum when town successfully lynched scum day 1 is already very tough. The "risk" isn't that high since the chance of victory was so small already.

 

[Strong Badam]

And frankly I don't find scum claiming vanilla townie to be uncommon at all. While I don't participate in forum Mafia much, it happens constantly in the countless in-person Mafia or Werewolf games I've played. Does this just not happen in forum Mafia in your experience, Lore ?

 

[Lore]

Doing some dumb workplace training stuff, then will respond

 

[Strong Badam]

After considering it more, vanilla townie claims in particular on day 1 by an actual townie is bad for town (if true, it narrows down night kill pool for scum), usually making this scummy behavior. I think there's a ton of WIFOM in trying to, at face value, determine if --- is scum or town based exclusively on the claim itself. However, with all of the additional context in ---'s posts that I've reasoned through in my large post, I really think he's just scum.

 

[Rockin]

So first off, I think we're throwing several key assumptions toDay.

- We're assuming Matunas investigated Strong bad N1
- We're assuming/having the mindset that --- did a town gambit, as well as him being town

Actually, looking at this, werekill has been doing most of the planting/saying in stuff and we just come to somewhat of an agreement with it with little question

Quick observation, Matunas had Strong Bad as strong town read while leaving me as more of a town lean.

I believe that's his only strong town read too, unless I'm missing something.

I'm continuing my reread, but if the above is the case, I feel secure in thinking Matunas got an Cop-Innocent on SB.

Stuff like this, I mean. as well as answering questions meant for people (like others asking --- about the breadcrumb mixup and then werekill sorta 'answering for them' while giving his opinion)

So let's take a step back and approach these thing (as well as other pressing matters fresh) from a new angle.

[Matunas using his cop ability on Strong Bad]

First off, this shouldn't be in anyone's mind. Several people had Null to town lean on SB, including Matunas. The only people that questioned/found him scumm were Pythang and Medi (both died from NKs in that order). If anything, the biggest questionable people were me and tewnlenk. I was making weird plays/questionable approach, while tewn was a bit new and had null reads/decent contribute. Matunas, at the time, believed in the napolitian breadcrumb, and he had no issues with werekill. There's also the dreaded/unfortunate posibility that he investigated pythang that night, but then again, he liked him D1 and ongoing to D2.

Also I'm assuming <pi's Rockin vote is a joke one, and since I legitimately want to vote for Rockin here, I'd recommend <pi to remove their vote since it's no longer a joke wagon.

If it somehow got to l-2 with the joke vote still on there, I'll unvote out of fairness until the joke got removed.


--- What are your reads so far?

This one of things that was very bothersome by werekill. why push pi off the vote? if he was certain that he wanted me lynched, he could've just unvoted and just voted for me again when it came time to hammer/put me to 1-L. Hell, keeping ON me while still having pi would've been fine pressure. Instead, it just seems that he wants to be 1st/2nd on the vote to make himself look good/legit when it comes to people he finds scummy. Yes, Pi did turn out to be scum, but again, I'm looking at this from a player's prespective on things.

My reads

scumy: sb rockin werekill
scumish: teewn mediocre
Townish: pythag --- matunas
Towny: <3

I also want to make note of this as well. It seems weird that he had sb as scum, and --- (who didn't do much/any discussion is town.

The bolded line is weird as ****?

Why would you hint that you are a power role then immediately say that you're fine revealing that role in night PMs? Let's pretend that Night PMs are a thing. Literally every single player would be dumb not to immediately ask to get that claim in Night PMs.

If this is a gambit as Vanilla Town to draw fire/protect towards yourself, it's a bad one (and I mean no offense or intelligence insult there). I am failing to see the motivation as Town here.

If you are Scum, then this means you're drawing a protect towards yourself. I see more benefit for Scum here to do this gambit than town.


Currently I'm having a hard time deciding if this is just a bad town gambit or a good scum one. I'm 50/50 on it.

This part here (where --- misread the rules) is where werekill weighs on it being a town gambit, and then several posts later cements that it was a town gambit all throughout D1 and D2.

Doing pretty good these days. Enjoying life on the west coast. I appreciate your response. You gave a pretty clear impression of where you stand on things as a whole. Curious as to what you think of Medi now that he has posted significantly more.



I'm in the same boat. Haven't been on much, but glad to be back for a game with some familiar faces.

Its funny to read you describe your playstyle. Playing with/against you in the past that is always the vibe I got. A guy playing the game who can be hard to read because he is simply playing what is visible. This game feels very much the same so far. You've given good reads in the last few posts. I agree with your stance on Werekill and SB, as they promote discussion and have some leader like qualities in the early game. Hard to say one way or the other my town/scum read for them, but I am also against either lynching based purely on the promotion of discussion and asking real questions to others. I find a very null read on you, maybe leaning townie.

--- , at this point we have the most information about you. If it was a claim of sorts, either falsely laid or serious, that is a lot of information. Making it easy to keep on eye on what you say or do from here. For this reason I wouldn't want to get rid of you on D1. However, I feel you have stated the least amount when it comes to opinions of others and actual stances of any kind, leaving very little impact on the total reads of the day so far. There was a point where SB asked you about your opinion on something and you never responded, just a vague post and vote on Medi. Something I would typically consider kinda scummy. While I still get a townie vibe from you, there are things that make me question it. I would love to hear how you feel about the current votes and what we should do heading into the last day.

Lore , so far you seem to be playing a solid game to me. Asking questions where they need to be asked and paying attention to details in your posts. I appreciate asking for clarification when something is vague, it clears up a lot of misconceptions in a game like this, which typically benefits town. I think you are a strong person to have around. But as Medi mentioned earlier I think it is important to keep an eye on those in "leadership" roles in these types of game.

Rockin , I’ll be honest and say I wanted to keep some pressure on you today, because I had some questions on your early play. But when I realized how badly I misread that section, I felt like I had to unvote. I agree that telling others to take a backseat early is not the best call and came off as a little weird, but not enough that it screams scrum to me. Otherwise I mostly picked up on you trying to prod others to talk and getting a feel for the game again. Hard for me to say one way or the other.

TewnLeenk , I think your post on reads was a good first real impression for me. But you still haven’t posted a ton of info as a whole. How do you feel moving into the end of D1? Any thoughts on other’s reads?

<π you never answered me on why you brought up meta early (115), but that really isn’t important as a whole. We haven’t heard anything from you since you posted your reads. I think now is an important time to see if you have any updated stances on anything. When it comes to the overall feel of everyone, your list is the one I think I disagree with the most. I don’t really know why you feel that way about any of your reads. It kinda seems like your scum reads are based on the fact that they are active and that's about all I see from your posts? Where do you stand right now? Who do you think is a good candidate?

Strong Badam , I said this earlier, but I find myself agreeing, in general, with most of your stances. I like that you ask for reasons behind decisions and are actively following up. When you do state your opinion you say why, and clearly. I don't agree with completely with --- being a scum read at the moment, but that is more of a gut feeling than anything else. However, I do agree that as of right now <π is the most solid first day choice. I want to wait and see if there are responses to the what was posted tonight before I commit to voting, but as of now I plan on voting for <π in the morning based on current events.

See, in this post, he's actually being very co-operative/agreeing with SB. Not that it in itself is wrong with it, but I fail to see why he would investigate one of the people making discussions so early, as opposed to two potential people (myself and tewn) who are more in the gray area.

My Rockin Vote isn't a joke vote any more.
My suspicion is Rockin and SB or Rockin and Werekill are scum and one of the two is trying to pressure people off of Rockin. They've both asked multiple times about explaining the vote, it feels to me like they are trying to scare me off.
But at the same time by their own admission its day 1... you are essentially voting at random. My 20% power vote isn't even threatening on its own, but when Rockin got up to 3 votes thats when they started pushing again.

Even Rockin hasn't questioned the vote as far as I have read.

Strong Badam so here's the part where I feel that it was less of a bus, and more of the mafia member acknowledged that pi was more then likely going to die. There wasn't a lot of pressure on me in regards of votes (due to misreads on their part) and pi looked worse with his emotional statements, such as here.

Thing is, I'm under the belief of the roles are publicly presented to us, and trying to further figure out the possibilities of other roles/fakeclaims is a waste of time. WE need to focus on the facts and the inconsistancy of other players, not trying to figure out setups.

Speaking of time, we only have 6 and a half hours till lynch. to some people, that could be enough time, but with people possibly working today, it'd be problematic.

Strongbad - Like I said, I'd rather get another lynch target (perferably werekill), but I wouldn't be opposed too much for a <pi lynch.

Vote: <π

Not sure if people would care for this part here, but here is where I was softly stating about the sample roles (thus the mixup on D2 which I do feel bad for)

Summary of D1: A lot of things happen, but in the end, we caught our first scum.

Summary of D2: admittingly, I was lazy, but that was also because I was sold on the --- lynch after the breadcrumb was him saying vanilla townie. I took off the vote, but I did make a post saying I wouldn't be surprised if he did claim vanilla townie as a fake claim. with the format/setup, it seems much safer to role claim that then a pr. The one thing I found odd in the day is despite being lazy, and that counterclaim ****up I did, no one applied any pressure on me. I know someone said that they saw me less likely to be scum cause of the lynch with pi, but still.

To see some pressure back on me in D3 is bothersome, especially since I haven't done anything scummy, and the one who does find me scumm is werekill, who did drop the aggro on me in favor of medi.

To explain on my issue with werekill, it's mainly gut based. There's been posts he made where it just didn't sit right from me, as I had a harder time seeing him as town. The way he answers questions, or answers other people's questions, doesn't sit right with me either. His stances on what he feels is scum/townie is also bothersome as he seems like the type that 'once he sets his eyes on something, his mind is made up.' Keep in mind, this is unlike my feeling with SB, who at first didn't like. However, I understood the early parts I saw was me looking at what could be his game style, and not his scummy plays, so I gave him a chance, and as a result, he looks a bit more trustworthy.

I'm unsure how to feel with ---. I want to say that his claim could be bogus and that he's scum, as I haven't seen too much towny play from him. At the same time, gut is hesitant on it. I would be fine with a lynch on him if it comes down to it, but I would prefer a werekill lynch

tewnlink, like --- can be either scum or town. I don't get any scum vibes from him, but there hasn't a lot of town play from him since most of D2 he was mostly repeating what werekill/SB has been saying with little genuine input on his behalf. Hell, his read on me went from scummy to scumlean after I asked him about it. I COULD just blindly say that he's townie based on the potential investigation on him, but that's too dangerous to assume when we're close to lylo

No offense SB, while I do consider you great for pushing discussions, and I like your thoughts in the matter, I don't consider you untouchable in this scenario. I know others see you as town, and I at least trust you. I do have one genuine question for you. Being that you're so radient in towniness, is there a reason you feel why you haven't been NKed, seeing as how you push discussions and reads?

 

[Rockin]

oh ****, there's been some posts. I'll look into it asap

 

[Rockin]

I like the explanation on the ---, but can you give me more information on why you feel werekill is town as a whole? He's been fairly aggressive on his medi play as well as previous stances/view points on things

 

[Rockin]

also I know my question about you in regards of the NK sounds weird af, but there's a logical reason behind it.