Tomafia 4: Game Over - Mafia Wins!

[Tom]

There is a good discussion that can be made here about Appeal to Emotion and its place in Mafia. This game is over, but I would encourage this discussion if people are able to have it in a reasonable manner. Probably not between Rockin and Werekill. But I know that many people observed this game - in addition to the people who played - who might feel the need to say something. I encourage it if it can be done tactfully. I'll chime in if necessary, but I don't think its necessary for me.

 

[Tom]

There is also another game brewing - one that can include both DGamers and BRoomers. If you would like to play in that game, please feel free to express your interest in this thread. It'll be a balance of current DGamers, old school DGamers, and BRoomers. If all works out, I will also be playing this game! And I won't be the only old head throwing his hat in the ring.

 

[Strong Badam]

This game was pretty taxing on my free time, so I'm going to have to bow out of doing another forum game so soon. I'm happy to join the spectator chat though! If there's a sizable gap between now and another game and folks want me to play, hit me up and I'll see if I can get ahead enough at work to justify checking in during the work day.

I'm definitely open to critique of my play, there was already some good stuff in the graveyard PM that I took note of. This was my first forum Mafia game, though I've played in-person Mafia, Werewolf, One Night Werewolf, and Resistance quite a bit. I'd have probably been toast if I hadn't.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

There is a good discussion that can be made here about Appeal to Emotion and its place in Mafia. This game is over, but I would encourage this discussion if people are able to have it in a reasonable manner. Probably not between Rockin and Werekill. But I know that many people observed this game - in addition to the people who played - who might feel the need to say something. I encourage it if it can be done tactfully. I'll chime in if necessary, but I don't think its necessary for me.

I mean, appealing to emotion has always been part of the game, at least in my eyes. Taking it away can give the town a decently sized advantage if the mafia can't manipulate them. Back in uPick when I was the thief, I did a lot appealing to emotion to keep Kary off my back. It was only after JTB destroyed my ability that I could say, "Turns out I was lying to you the whole time about my role! Luckily, I'm town now, and you HAVE to trust me." Excessively relying on enotional tactics can make you less trustworthy from game to game if you permanently wear an artificial heart on your sleeve. While I was playing really earnestly in uPick, I dropped it complely in all the subsequent DGames I played. I started lying left and right and was truly playing the villain, hiding it as a guise behind an empty "trust me". Then again, I was mafia in MMA, and was the de facto enemy during ERO. Obviously people will come to distrust me more and more, especially when I wouldn't stop telling GLG and Pokechu obvious lies for the final 10 phases in aforementioned ERO (with truths in between when I made them think I was lying). Using emotions such as trust and guilt as back door options in your defense may work at first, but by the end of the game, people's trust in you lowers as they notice how quick you are to put on a mask, and conflicts arise between not just players, but the people behind them, which is what is visible right now with Rockin and Werekill. Once the argument extends beyond the game and lies in the fundamental trustworthiness in the other player, something tragic must have occurred and needs to be tackled.

In order to address this problem, and to keep the game fair for everyone, I propose that ALL players abstain from talking about their own trust (unlessit pertains to game actions, such as voting patterns to claim as town), and that guilttripping/fine-lynch-me attitudes be banned from the game, resulting in modkilling if it were to happen. This affects much of the game, and this change probably won't be accepted. Everybody should claim as town, that is still fair. Every town should give their claim as either their actual claim or as vanilla townie (or other role, just be prepared to back it up and don't get caught lying) when they are asked and if they're the mafia, a well-developed fake claim. If the fake claim has discovered cracks, the mafia is still allowed to defend themselves as it has happened in the past. All that I propose we eliminate is the guilttripping of other players and the defeatus attitude of near lynchees. We don't need to say "I swear I'm town, please believe me. On my life I'm not scum", which is what I want to get rid of. A simple "I'm town, and here's why. If you don't believe me, fine." is fair enough for the purposes of mafia.

These are radical changes, and I'm open to discussion or modification of what I stated. I'm very passionate about this subject, because it occurs very often for the live games I run, and I hate seeing people yelling at each other across the table over just a game of mafia.

Edit: said "heart on your string" not "heart on your sleeve". Wrong phrase

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

There is also another game brewing - one that can include both DGamers and BRoomers. If you would like to play in that game, please feel free to express your interest in this thread. It'll be a balance of current DGamers, old school DGamers, and BRoomers. If all works out, I will also be playing this game! And I won't be the only old head throwing his hat in the ring.

I'll play in it, sounds like an intense mashup!

Also, I thought I said it on D1, but could I join the graveyard chat? Really thought I sent a request, but I guess not.

 

[giraffelasergun]

This game was pretty taxing on my free time, so I'm going to have to bow out of doing another forum game so soon. I'm happy to join the spectator chat though! If there's a sizable gap between now and another game and folks want me to play, hit me up and I'll see if I can get ahead enough at work to justify checking in during the work day.

I'm definitely open to critique of my play, there was already some good stuff in the graveyard PM that I took note of. This was my first forum Mafia game, though I've played in-person Mafia, Werewolf, One Night Werewolf, and Resistance quite a bit. I'd have probably been toast if I hadn't.

One Night Werewolf is super fun and also gets rid of my least favorite part of in person mafia(sitting around for an hour because you died early and have to wait for the game to end)

 

[Strong Badam]

One Night Werewolf is super fun and also gets rid of my least favorite part of in person mafia(sitting around for an hour because you died early and have to wait for the game to end)

Completely agreed, I think it's really great for getting new players into social-deduction games. If you are convinced to play when you were on the fence and you just ****ing die day one, the retention rate is really poor. One Night is fun and has enough variance that if you play for an hour you will absolutely win at least once.
Plus, the narrator on the phone app is legendary. "Robber!"

 

[Lore]

I tend to feel that Appeal to Emotion is a Scum tactic, but this is the second game in a row where the Emotion Appeals came from frustrated Town players. I'm not sure where I stand now.

I do 100% think they should be removed from the game. My in-person games have a similar house rule, after a few couples used the "I swear on our relationship/marriage that I'm telling the truth" Appeal. Let's just say it got rough.

giraffelasergun Resistance also keeps everyone in the game, which is nice. There's no kills or players being knocked out.

 

[Lore]

Completely agreed, I think it's really great for getting new players into diplomacy games. If you are convinced to play when you were on the fence and you just ****ing die day one, the retention rate is really poor. One Night is fun and has enough variance that if you play for an hour you will absolutely win at least once.
Plus, the narrator on the phone app is legendary. "Robber!"

I had initially considered Night Killing Tewn N1, due to how distant they were from the discussion (for the most part). They would have been safe from any potential Doctor or Jailkeeper. I changed my mind 100% because of how miserable that would have been for them.

I went with Pythag because their distance had been a bit odd, and they also has some slight suspicions of me. I got very lucky both with getting the PRs and by not having Pythag's suspicion of me be noticed.

 

[Matunas]

Good game all. Congrats Lore and <π. Lot of shoulda woulda coulda in my gameplay. Overall it was fun. Thanks Tom for doing all this. Had been a very very long time since I played. I still find it exhausting, even when I don't dive in the way I once did with the note taking and the like. If I do play again I am stealing Strong Badam 's note taking style, cause it is super easy to follow and read.

 

[Pythag]

I had initially considered Night Killing Tewn N1, due to how distant they were from the discussion (for the most part). They would have been safe from any potential Doctor or Jailkeeper. I changed my mind 100% because of how miserable that would have been for them.

I went with Pythag because their distance had been a bit odd, and they also has some slight suspicions of me. I got very lucky both with getting the PRs and by not having Pythag's suspicion of me be noticed.

You reaaaaallly lucked out with getting me as the tracker. This game would've gone VERY different had both Town PR not been eliminated so quickly!

 

[Lore]

Oh for sure lmao. I like to think it was all my leet skill that got the win, but let's be real here. I got real lucky with NK targets LOL

 

[TewnLeenk]

I'm glad you didn't ice me night 1.

Getting eliminated on the first night of my first ever game would have been disheartening lmao

 

[Lore]

Exactly lol. I'm just glad you had a fun time.

 

[Rockin]

I mean, appealing to emotion has always been part of the game, at least in my eyes. Taking it away can give the town a decently sized advantage if the mafia can't manipulate them. Back in uPick when I was the thief, I did a lot appealing to emotion to keep Kary off my back. It was only after JTB destroyed my ability that I could say, "Turns out I was lying to you the whole time about my role! Luckily, I'm town now, and you HAVE to trust me." Excessively relying on enotional tactics can make you less trustworthy from game to game if you permanently wear an artificial heart on your sleeve. While I was playing really earnestly in uPick, I dropped it complely in all the subsequent DGames I played. I started lying left and right and was truly playing the villain, hiding it as a guise behind an empty "trust me". Then again, I was mafia in MMA, and was the de facto enemy during ERO. Obviously people will come to distrust me more and more, especially when I wouldn't stop telling GLG and Pokechu obvious lies for the final 10 phases in aforementioned ERO (with truths in between when I made them think I was lying). Using emotions such as trust and guilt as back door options in your defense may work at first, but by the end of the game, people's trust in you lowers as they notice how quick you are to put on a mask, and conflicts arise between not just players, but the people behind them, which is what is visible right now with Rockin and Werekill. Once the argument extends beyond the game and lies in the fundamental trustworthiness in the other player, something tragic must have occurred and needs to be tackled.

In order to address this problem, and to keep the game fair for everyone, I propose that ALL players abstain from talking about their own trust (unlessit pertains to game actions, such as voting patterns to claim as town), and that guilttripping/fine-lynch-me attitudes be banned from the game, resulting in modkilling if it were to happen. This affects much of the game, and this change probably won't be accepted. Everybody should claim as town, that is still fair. Every town should give their claim as either their actual claim or as vanilla townie (or other role, just be prepared to back it up and don't get caught lying) when they are asked and if they're the mafia, a well-developed fake claim. If the fake claim has discovered cracks, the mafia is still allowed to defend themselves as it has happened in the past. All that I propose we eliminate is the guilttripping of other players and the defeatus attitude of near lynchees. We don't need to say "I swear I'm town, please believe me. On my life I'm not scum", which is what I want to get rid of. A simple "I'm town, and here's why. If you don't believe me, fine." is fair enough for the purposes of mafia.

These are radical changes, and I'm open to discussion or modification of what I stated. I'm very passionate about this subject, because it occurs very often for the live games I run, and I hate seeing people yelling at each other across the table over just a game of mafia.

Edit: said "heart on your string" not "heart on your sleeve". Wrong phrase

The thing was, it was D4 and a lylo situation. I saw based on the NK i had to try and piece together who killed SB and why. I did my best to approach the game in a reasonable matter and urge those two still alive to not auto lynch. I calmly approach the matter and did my best to explain why tewn could be mafia. werekill still had his reads on me as mafia. He said that he was going to do another reread while still thoroughly convinced that I was mafia. I was urging him to look at things from a different prespective and angles, and not with the original reads he had on me.

Out of fairness, I will reread with that perspective. Just please understand that it may not change my read.

If that last part wasn't said, I would've been a lot more calm about it. I would've been okay. But saying entirely that, i read it as 'I will do as you say, but it will change nothing. I will still find you as scum and lynch you.'

I'm sure werekill is a nice guy, but the way he words things makes him carry out a particular air about him, and not on the same grounds as the others (who seemed more level headed and was looking at people eye to eye). The 'once I made my mind up' mindset wasn't helping things, as I litterally had nothing else to sway him.

I will admit, while i didn't play horrible, I didn't play as great as it could've been. when it comes to mafia, my town play is decent to bad. I know I play a bit better as mafia. I know I did the game poor justice on last Day, as I got vocally frustrated that there was no way to change his mind. Appologies to everyone who had to deal/watch my performance.

 

[Strong Badam]

Rockin It was a bit of a ****ty situation being in lylo with a newbie townie. Werekill basically got to do a ton of scummy stuff without it mattering. His entire Day 4 play was very anti-town but Tewn had no way of knowing. At least, after Tewn didn't hammer, you could be certain that he wasn't scum, so you could have made a case. But in the state you were, perhaps it wasn't good for you to try.

I'm really glad you joined the game and played with us. It was a lot of fun! I think I gave you some friction as well after you claimed you were the only vanilla townie; I hope I didn't come off as abrasive then.

 

[Lore]

If it helps, I was trying to account for the fact that my Scum plan was to go for you. I didn't want to raise your hopes or anything like that.

If that could have been worded way better, then I'm sorry. I couldn't think of a way not to be rough there; promising a potential opinion change would have been dickish in my view. At the same time, you were seeing me as a Town player, so I can see why it was seen way more rough.

Either way, I'll try to approach situations like that differently in the future. I'm sorry to have been rough there, intentionally or not.


You're a good guy, and I've always enjoyed you in the BRoom. I have zero intention of letting my frustration at your post game affect my view long term of you as a person.

 

[Evil Eye]

Anyone that wants my advice can probably find it in graveyard chat

 

[Pythag]

Anyone that wants my advice can probably find it in graveyard chat

if I ever play mafia again (I won't) I'm making it a policy to lynch everyone who drops a vote and then says "This vote is for pressure and [reactions I'm looking for]" on the spot and without mercy

EE's rules for Mafia!

1. Don't play
2. Lynch those who explain!

(loljk I know what you're getting at)

 

[Evil Eye]

Rule #1 is a rule for myself only

the most important rule of all

 

[Rockin]

Rockin It was a bit of a ****ty situation being in lylo with a newbie townie. Werekill basically got to do a ton of scummy stuff without it mattering. His entire Day 4 play was very anti-town but Tewn had no way of knowing. At least, after Tewn didn't hammer, you could be certain that he wasn't scum, so you could have made a case. But in the state you were, perhaps it wasn't good for you to try.

I'm really glad you joined the game and played with us. It was a lot of fun! I think I gave you some friction as well after you claimed you were the only vanilla townie; I hope I didn't come off as abrasive then.

Honestly I don't think I would've known. This was my first lylo situation. I've seen lylo in some games, but never actually survived long enough for it LOL

 

[Rockin]

If it helps, I was trying to account for the fact that my Scum plan was to go for you. I didn't want to raise your hopes or anything like that.

If that could have been worded way better, then I'm sorry. I couldn't think of a way not to be rough there; promising a potential opinion change would have been dickish in my view. At the same time, you were seeing me as a Town player, so I can see why it was seen way more rough.

Either way, I'll try to approach situations like that differently in the future. I'm sorry to have been rough there, intentionally or not.


You're a good guy, and I've always enjoyed you in the BRoom. I have zero intention of letting my frustration at your post game affect my view long term of you as a person.

No it's fine. Like i said, I was semi emotional, and it didn't feel good. But it's fine, don't worry too much about it. as much of a 'vet' I am, I still have a lot of room to grow as a player.

 

[Lore]

No it's fine. Like i said, I was semi emotional, and it didn't feel good. But it's fine, don't worry too much about it. as much of a 'vet' I am, I still have a lot of room to grow as a player.

No worries. On my end at least, it's all good.

If we are in a game together in the future, I promise not to be offended if you immediately ask me to cut out similar behavior. I'll just go with it without question.

Hopefully I just won't do it in the first place, but I understand that I'm still a work in progress.

 

[Lore]

EE's rules for Mafia!

1. Don't play
2. Lynch those who explain!

(loljk I know what you're getting at)

Yeah I need to not do that over explaining ever again lol. I was vastly overcompensating since we had a new player, and it was dumb behavior as Town or Scum. Tewn didn't need that crap.

 

[Strong Badam]

Vote: Werekill

 

[Evil Eye]

Honestly I don't think I would've known. This was my first lylo situation. I've seen lylo in some games, but never actually survived long enough for it LOL

dogg but you were the guy that stepped up and said nobody vote cuz mafia could quickhammer

 

[Lore]

Oh can we get a link to graveyard chat, if it hasn't been given already?

 

[Rockin]

dogg but you were the guy that stepped up and said nobody vote cuz mafia could quickhammer

;_;

 

[TewnLeenk]

Yeah I need to not do that over explaining ever again lol. I was vastly overcompensating since we had a new player, and it was dumb behavior as Town or Scum. Tewn didn't need that crap.

Eh I still had a good time, it's all good

 

[Maven89]

Werekill's play is the type I hate as a townie, because he's acting so much like a bad-townie that I want to kill them, but think they're town so I know I shouldn't. This is the first time I recall seeing someone do that play style and turn out scum. Major props to Werekill for constantly pointing out his own flaws in a way that seemed natural, and made him come off as a bad player instead of mafia.

AtE are fine in limit. Threatening to quit a game, or claiming the pressure is causing a mental issue/hurting you personally is never acceptable, I think it should be blacklisted because it's garbage and cowardly. Everything else is fine.

Nabe annoyed me in the Westeros FFA because he made an appeal to me to form a Dgames alliance where we'd hardbodied the newbies, then betrayed me non-stop. That annoyed me during the game, but when it was over I didn't care, because it's mafia and tricking your friends/acquaintances is part of it. It's not like you're going your friends for Counterstrike then TKing them.

Also sign me up for the next game Tom

 

[BarDulL]

This is actually a pretty hard topic. Just a note, I'm speaking strictly out of context and not necessarily how it pertained to this game:

My general understanding of AtE is that it's when a player is trying to try to make someone feel sorry for them in order to gain some kind of favor or advantage in the game, right? Or do we also include AtE that kinda just comes out when someone is legitimately getting stressed over the game but is not trying to use this stress to gain an advantage?

Anyway, I think AtE is a legitimate strategy in some respects (manipulating players as scum, or even as town, with emotion seems like by itself fair play), but at the same time it kinda puts a damper on the game especially when it comes off as too real (which can be draining).

Kinda in the same vein and a bit of a segue, in recent memory, I haven't really been a fan of players self-voting or doing things that are clearly against their faction because they are stressed, which I agree should be addressed. In general I think self-voting should be removed to tone down the opportunities for AtE to transpire.

Another thing I do want to mention is that even if a player isn't trying to AtE, sometimes their feelings or emotions can be misrepresented by another player, which happens a lot and is a big part of the game. I feel that it is probably dangerous to ban AtE as a result. I wouldn't be against putting players on "probation" for playing against their wincon/self-voting/trying to throw the game in what appears to be an emotionally charged manner though assuming that is actually what they are doing.

This was probably a bit all over the place but I'm tired and it's late. :V

 

[BarDulL]

Another example of banning AtE that worries me:

Player B is tunneling another Player A nonstop after Player A called Player B a nub. Inadvertently this can cause an "appeal to emotion" towards people in the game watching this because they may think Player B is just angry at Player A, and could thus be sympathetic towards Player B as a result. This was not an intended "appeal to emotion" but it nevertheless was in a way.

Does anyone get what I'm saying here about this topic? It's really freaking complicated.

 

[Strong Badam]

I get what you're saying. Appeal to Emotion is difficult to objectively identify, and thus hard to enforce a ban on. It'd be possible to do so if all the players regularly play together and are able to adhere to the spirit of the rule, but would be hard with rotating casts of players with very different experiences and opinions of what classifies as AtE. A big detriment to a game is if players disagree on whether a particular play counts as AtE and have to get a moderator involved; that's very disruptive to the game state.

It'd be more practical to ban particular explicitly defined behaviors, like self-voting or threatening to quit the game, than a blanket "Appeal to Emotion" ban.
There is, of course, the argument that such an appeal is part of the game and is part of what makes it compelling to some. The game is, among other things, fundamentally about being persuasive, and appeal to emotion is a good way to persuade. There's a skill in reading when it's genuine or not which can be interesting.

 

[Maven89]

I always took AtE to mean it's definition, appealing to emotion over logic. For me, if it's acceptable comes down to "does your AtE involve insulting or yelling at other players"? There's a difference between a newbie scum going "Oh sorry, I'm new I don't understand, I guess you can kill me if you think it's best I was really having fun though!" and going "wtf guys, voting me out in my first game when I don't know how to play"

 

[Lore]

I'm in pretty much full agreement with everyone here. The main behavior that should be banned is self-voting and similar AtE's. It's almost entirely why I replaced out of MHA mafia, after the argument with Pokechu. It had been a trend throughout the game with other players, and when Pokechu more or less said he was thinking of doing something similar, I just said **** it and quit.

Luckily he didn't actually do it, but it still dragged down the game as a whole when others did it.

 

[giraffelasergun]

Low key self voting is the most frustrating thing to see someone do in a mafia game(unless their a mafia hammering themselves early to deprive town of discussion time).

 

[BarDulL]

Maven89

I think we’re walking into dangerous territory since people in general are prone to reacting to external stimuli in a manner that sometimes seem illogical or unnecessary to others.

For example, we all have varying interpretations of the behaviors of others. Sometimes another player’s approach will makes sense to a portion of the roster, but sometimes that same approach will not jive with the other side of the fence and they’ll think it was a lapse in judgment (which is what generally becomes what is referred to as a “scum vs. dumb”-type situation). Then you have scum who naturally try to misrepresent a Townie’s approach to subsequently discredit them, like saying that a townie is acting out of desperation when that is not necessarily the case (but misrepresenting where a townie is coming from on an emotional level could cause an inadvertent, unintended appeal to emotion, which is another reason why banning AtE is just a nightmare).

One of the best examples of this phenomenon is in-game paranoia/FUD which could be considered illogical depending on a player’s point of view. Some will find paranoia to be unfounded, others will be sympathetic and in agreement. Then you have scum who will play to their advantage and feign paranoia when necessary; scum will change the tone of their posts to match the paranoia they are trying to represent which serves as a form of AtE, but I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with doing this.

I think we can all agree though that AtE which involves directly playing against one’s own wincon or the game itself shouldn’t be allowed. I.E. threatening to plunge the game, threatening to quit, trying to hold the game hostage in any way, voting for one’s self, etc.

Edit: changed syntax/grammar etc. to better express my thoughts.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's a shame self-voting is so strategic for certain roles or it'd be easy to just outright ban it. For 2d3 it would be reasonable to ban it unless you are scum and it's a hammer, but a lot of other scenarios it's a viable tactic. Jester/tanner/whatever, vengeful townie, hammering yourself as scum to shorten discussion.

My favorite in-person game conclusion in Werewolf was being a Doppleganger, triggering on a Hunter that died, and then driving a self-lynch in 2v1 LyLo when I knew the town wouldn't lynch the real scum.

 

[Lore]

I think there's a pretty clear distinction between AtE self voting and self-hammering as scum, though.

 

[BarDulL]

Context is also a part of the issue, but I think stipulations could be provided depending on which role a player gets and which game the player is in.

Vengeful townies generally shouldn’t be self-hammering FTR since it goes against their wincon (optimal play involves generating as much info as possible, self-hammering does not directly generate new information from the POV of the Vengeful while forcing the town’s numbers to decrease) except for niche situations like a 2v1 LyLo where scum won’t vote for the claimed vengeful (this is silly though because intentionally not voting the vengeful is suspicious behavior). There’s certainly an argument for jesters, but we generally never use them here lol.