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That's perfect! For the love of all, I just couldn't think of a solution for that and had been beating my head to figure some kind of idea. Your idea works perfectly, I love how this is coming along.
Down B is the one special I'm not really having an easy time thinking of.
I've been racking my brain on that one too since I feel like Hellfire would be the more unique ability and iconic enough to Scorpion to not incorporate in some way. I was thinking it could be used as a trap when the input is done with the target too far to be activated immediately, it could give him a little more stage control (maybe it could perform like MKX's Minion grab variation).
Flame Aura as its own standalone special (both groun and air) is what I always end up thinking, with Hellfire and Takedown being ground-only moves with special inputs like Ryu and Ken.
Creativity here is awesome- but taking something not at all iconic on the character, one off ideas that didnt make it into other games, isnt really taking the essence of the character and making it work.
Not to mention two characters using actual guns. Much more violent than a spear- no one uses a spear in real life.
Isn't he also ironically the only one to not show up in every single game? XD
What do you mean? The way this is phrased is confusing. Are you saying Sub Zero is the one to show up in every game?
I fully see Sub Zero as an easy echo fighter. Change three out of four special attacks, base one or two on existing moves from other players. Voila!
Scorpion. He wasn't in MK3.
It's not that easy. Their abilities are far more different than the previous games. They actually play extremely different now. MK has pushed characters to be far less similar, with at most a few aerials and the usual Uppercut move being the same. Sometimes the fatalities are generic otherwise.
Yeah, and you could have made this Argument for Ken, yet he is an echo.
Ken was literally designed to be Ryu's "second costume" from the start. The MK characters were not done that way. They were always separated, and everybody had some remote similarities. They're extremely different situations.
Yes- Ken is vastly different.
I doubt we're getting his Klassic edition. He's memorable for both versions. Right now Ed Boom is pushing his modern era design, which is far more different. The Klassic version is purely a costume last I checked. MK11 is also coming to the Switch, so it's likely the Klassic version will stay a costume.
Show me a third party character that doesn't look similar to their initial design.
Again, just all opinion, and I argue, not based on much. The history of the character is what Smash Ultimate is about celebrating. De facto, the palette swaps were a core component of the original games, which is why they had as many characters as they did. Whether or not you personally think this is important is irrelevant.
You just don't think of echoes the way I think of them. And I would argue, you don't think of clones correctly, as you seem to argue reasons only stated by yourself. What do Roy and Chrom have to do with each other, exactly? Chrom should play like Lucina and Marth, by his game standards. He isn't even in the same timeline as Roy as far as I'm aware. And what difference does this make?
It matters a lot what Ed Boon pushes. Sakurai doesn't inherently get permission just because. It's an agreement they have to work with. Sakurai will work with whatever he is given, or nothing at all.
I wouldn't say they're a core component as much as you think they are. They had little affect on gameplay and was more of a fan thing people liked. It's closer to a meme than an actual thing that make MK important.
Did you do any research on Chrom? He is supposed to play as a cross between Ike and Marth, not like Marth and Lucina. This is Sakurai's own statement. Roy is actually a cross between Ike and Marth overall in gameplay. Chrom actually fits that better than Ike or Marth, the two he compares to.
Unless you're suggesting Ed Boon would tell Sakurai, "No, how you want to use the character, as a tribute to the history of the cahracter, is wrong, you cannot use him," then I don't see what point you are making.
Nope. I just use the games they are from and fan conjecture. Perhaps that's my fault, and if you want to prove to me that in his actual games, Chrom is supposed to be what you just said, I will happily listen and even redact.
Palette Swap ninjas were more of a pattern than anything(not a color pun, that said). It isn't a key factor to each game was due to lesser technology. They evolved the designs because it was no longer a necessity. It's mainly a meme because people liked the idea. More notable memes would be Scorpion's or Shao Kahn's catchphrases, really.
What I'm saying is Sakurai doesn't get to choose Scorpion's costumes without Ed Boon saying yes. If Ed says only his modern design, Sakurai either goes with that or no licensing happens. Third Party developers give Sakurai freedom in some cases, but not all do. There's a reason Sonic, Cloud, and Pac-Man's costumes are all pretty bad. With very few easy to tell apart(namely Sonic has two remotely different costumes, his dark and silver ones, with the rest near identical). The companies have an extreme amount of control of their character. Joker having a good plethora of strong costumes, same with Ryu, Ken, and MegaMan are because Sega and Capcom(s) agreed to that. Not because Sakurai said so.
It's because Sakurai didn't add Chrom in the first place because he found him too similar to Marth and Ike. Roy incidentally happens to have similar abilities to what Marth and Ike are, so it makes sense why Chrom is the fire boy's echo. Nobody else is as logical. Ike somewhat, but then it loses the Marth-like qualities that Sakurai looked at. Mind you, that's his opinion on what Chrom is like. I haven't played Awakening, so I can't say. I can just say what Smash already shows.
Sakurai chooses the iconic designs. There is no reason to think that he would not here. Sakurai went out of his way to state that if Pacman could not use his more iconic design as a humanoid, then Pacman wouldn't be included at all (and this is mother freakin Pacman, grandfather to games). While we cannot assume anything in Smash (or anywhere) to perfect certainty, I'm gonna go with Scorpion being treated exactly the same way every other third party character, and even non-third party character, in Smash is treated- as an icon. That's actually something Nintendo tries to push, using the iconography of the character to be fully recognizable to any audience (this was stated in relation to their theme park coming).
So... you asked me if I did research... justified by making a statement implying that you did research... and then announce your research was playing the game.
He only gets those "iconic designs" because the company says yes to his idea. No more, no less. Again, they agree to let him use it. He doesn't have that kind of extreme freedom like you think he does. Also, Bayonetta is no gaming icon, nor Joker for that matter. He doesn't treat them like that. He gives them as much love and care as the company who owns the character allows him to. It's why Sonic has awful costumes. But also why he has little to no Modern-related stuff, being essentially Classic Sonic in everything but his character model chosen.
I was referring to research on what Sakurai said, actually. I must've worded that poorly, so I apologize.. He specifically said that Chrom wasn't in because he was too similar to Marth and Ike. Which is why him being an echo of Roy is a nice meta example, as Roy actually is a cross between Marth and Ike overall. It might not be entirely why Chrom is an echo of Roy, but it's the only fitting reason we have possible. He has not spoken on it overall.
...That's not remotely what I said at all. I said Ken was chosen because he was essentially Ryu's costume. It's why the comparison to Scorpion and Sub-Zero don't work. They were never costumes to begin with. The costume joke isn't much of a good reason that fits. The fact they still share similar models and could potentially work is an actual reason, that still fits within the series.
There is not a single character in all of Smash that uses a 'new' version of the character over the most iconic version of the character- so much so that characters who had potentially more iconic designs that were not viable for the main version of the character (Wario and Little Mac) were given alternates. This is what I was saying. Not that each character is an icon, but that each character chooses their most Iconic design. This is a choice by Sakurai, and we have 75 characters showing us this is likely to remain this way.
And likewise, we go back to my initial statement that Sub Zero could easily be an echo for Scorpion.
If you felt my reasoning was initially because of history and that the color swap was used, well, then perhaps I did not word myself carefully. I was pretty sure my initial post included many reasons.
Sonic. He explicitly uses his Modern design, not his Classic Design(his moves were mostly classic, though he somewhat changed it up with modern animations in Ultimate, but he's pretty much Classic in a Modern body). Never mind you're making a pattern sound like fact. That's not how it works. He'll use whatever A) He wants and B) Ed Boon says yes to. No more, no less. That's how it 100% works in negotiations. Not every company says yes, you know. Also Cloud is based upon his Dissidia design, as well his movie design, not his original PS1 designs. So what you said isn't even true. Neither are "classic" designs by any means. You should visit SourceGaming. They have a lot of neat information on stuff like this.
That was the only that stood out as a pretty silly reason. It doesn't account for important stuff like the fact they have the same bodyshape(which hasn't much changed) or used the same moves. Either I missed that, or you put too much emphasis on a less important reason. Besides that, your comparison to Ken was the issue, where they simply aren't similar whatsoever in why they work. It was already explained why Ken got in. He was a glorified costume in his original appearance. Kind of like what Echoes are. Sub-Zero definitely isn't that to Scorpion at all. They can still work as Echoes, but "cause colors" is highly unlikely to be a given reason.
Yeah. That's what we were told of echoes as a whole.
I've frequented Source Gaming a lot. I've even worked with them. Again- I've specifically said, yeah Ed Boon could say no- but do you think he would? You think he would be so hard headed as to say, "You want to use the classic, iconic design of my character, not the new one? No." It's a possibility, sure. It's just not that plausible. The DLC could entirely be cancelled! But is it likely- no.
Sonic definitely uses his modern design. He just doesn't use a modern moveset. His modern design, keep in mind, was used through Sonic 06(and beyond that, of course), which is also the victory theme he has. It's hardly a coincidence.
Obviously he won't. At best sparks flying. Blood ain't appearing in Smash, that's for sure. The word might, if trophies still existed. But they don't, so...
It hasn't, so it wont.
