Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Makani]

SO i have been steadily improving with my favorite character Greninja (he is so nimble and i love his dodges and recovery) but i always seem to run into a problem. I sure can beat the hell out of someone, but how do i knock them out? Most games i get up to like 130-150% on them but my smash attacks just dont seem to do it. do i need to meteor them at the edge? do i need to starve them of their jumps? or is there a move Grenny has that has the power to straight killshot them? I'm new, so go easy on me plz, thnx

Something I forgot to mention was move-staling. It's possible you've hit them with the same move over and over making it less effective in both damage and knockback as well, it'll be best to hit them with a strong move you haven't used much of in the last 0~10 hits.

 

[Garlien]

Can anyone tell me how beneficial Greninja's foxtrot is besides being able to do running smashes and shadow sneak? I have a feeling it would improve his speed since the beginning of the dash is similar to Little Mac's, and I know that his benefits him a lot.

 

[KERO]

SO i have been steadily improving with my favorite character Greninja (he is so nimble and i love his dodges and recovery) but i always seem to run into a problem. I sure can beat the hell out of someone, but how do i knock them out? Most games i get up to like 130-150% on them but my smash attacks just dont seem to do it. do i need to meteor them at the edge? do i need to starve them of their jumps? or is there a move Grenny has that has the power to straight killshot them? I'm new, so go easy on me plz, thnx

Hey, it's great to see someone passionate about the character! One thing you should definitely not do is try and force a kill with Greninja, though. If you're at a lower percent, unless you can bait an airdodge as their falling to the ground, your best bet is a Bair edgeguard or just tacking on percent for one of Greninja's best killing moves: Upthrow. While you're at lower percents, it doesn't kill especially early (around 160%ish on midweights), but once you hit 100%, things really get interesting. Uthrow kills Mario on FD at 138% when Greninja is at 100%. The higher your percent is, the earlier Uthrow kills as well. Once the opponent is about 110% or so, give or take depending on weight, start using Bthrow if you grab them to help unstale Uthrow. Bthrow does the most percent of any of our throws (9% when unstaled), and it can potentially also set up for an edgeguard. Once you reach that desired percent, though and you catch them, Uthrow them for the kill.

As mentioned, Fsmash is also a solid kill option if not somewhat laggy, and Usmash is an especially solid kill option if you can land it, killing some characters as early as 80%. Finally, Fair can also net some surprise kills when you're near the ledge.

There's a kill percents thread detailing Uthrow, Upward Sub, and center stage Shadow Sneak kill percents if you're interested.

 

[David Galanos]

Hey guys. I've noticed that substituting down kinda does more knock back than doing it another direction, correct me if I'm wrong. I've just been killing with it better compared to doing it up or sideways, anyone else agree? Also it's harder to punish compared to sideways if you miss

 

[Lavani]

I posted about this a month ago in the social thread (and technically it's in the frame data thread), but each direction of Substitute has differing damage, launch angles, and knockback values:

Input | Damage% | Launch Angle | BKB | KBG
or | 11% | 361° | 62 | 100
| 13% | 60° | 62 | 100
| 13% | 25° | 62 | 72
| 14% | 90° | 50 | 100
(vs grounded) | 14% | 45° | 50 | 100
(vs airborne) | 14% | 270° | 50 | 100

In terms of raw numbers you generally want to go for vertical Substitutes, but depending on position it might not always be viable.

 

[David Galanos]

Does anyone else do this?

I like to jump back and short a shuriken, and I'll usually charge it for a second. It usually is fine but recently I've been getting punished for it but a lot of quicker characters, especially captain falcon with his dash attack.

But I like hopping back and throwing shurikens, it's helpful at times. Should I just keep doing it and if they punish me stop doing it? Or just learn to stop doing it, is there a safer way to step back and shoot a shuriken?

 

[SleuthMechanism]

So i've recently gotten interested in subbing greninja. an my question is: is he still good after the patch? since i really like how flashy and slidy he is but he seems to have a lot of of trouble KOing and UAIR still feels just plain wrong.(would've liked if it remained unchanged in knockback and power as a kind of "power" version of sheik's uair to make up for it's greater end lag and lesser combo options)

 

[David Galanos]

So i've recently gotten interested in subbing greninja. an my question is: is he still good after the patch? since i really like how flashy and slidy he is but he seems to have a lot of of trouble KOing and UAIR still feels just plain wrong.(would've liked if it remained unchanged in knockback and power as a kind of "power" version of sheik's uair to make up for it's greater end lag and lesser combo options)

1. He is still good, but his combos aren't all guaranteed like most of sheiks. He is not top 10 anymore but he is definitely viable

2. I personally don't have trouble killing, I guess cause I've used him and only him as a main since day 1 so I've gotten down his kill set ups and up smash sweetspot I guess (which kills early) but you may have trouble killing, he can kill better than sheik tho imo so you should be fine if you can kill ok with sheik

3. Why do you want to play him? He is very fun and is still good for sure, but in terms of a sub I don't see Greninja being better than just subbing sheik. If you wanna play him cause you like his moves and the character than go ahead but if it's for subbing and only subbing Greninja might not be your character since you already play sheik (not saying Greninja and sheik are the same)

 

[SleuthMechanism]

2. eh, i kind of can't most of the time and have to instead rely on getting the gimp.3. no particular reason. i just wanted another character to play as and he felt interesting,

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Does anyone else do this?

I like to jump back and shoot a shuriken, and I'll usually charge it for a second. It usually is fine but recently I've been getting punished for it but a lot of quicker characters, especially captain falcon with his dash attack.

But I like hopping back and throwing shurikens, it's helpful at times. Should I just keep doing it and if they punish me stop doing it? Or just learn to stop doing it, is there a safer way to step back and shoot a shuriken?

Oh yes. I do that. It really helps in getting some breathing space if it does work.

On faster characters it's less effective because of the start up on WS.

It's a good thing to do in situations. Always best to remain unpredictable.

 

[David Galanos]

2. eh, i kind of can't most of the time and have to instead rely on getting the gimp.3. no particular reason. i just wanted another character to play as and he felt interesting,

Yeah you should go for it then

 

[Ventus55]

I have a question. I use the gamepad so i have c stick, should i put my c stick on smash attack or tilts?

 

[Marilink]

^Utilt is a great move, but Tap Jump makes it hard to do quickly, so I set my C-Stick to Attack, since I like to keep Tap Jump on..

Now, if you would rather have Tap Jump off, then switching C-stick to Attack is not a necessity. However, I like having Tap Jump on because it allows you to do Running U-Smashes more easily, as well as Usmash/Hydro Pump Out of Shield.

 

[Spirst]

Uh, he was talking about what the C-stick should be set to, not tap jump.

@ Ventus55 If you're looking to use Greninja for perfect pivot dtilts/utilts and generally use aerials with the C stick, set it to tilts. I, however, have it set to smashes for ease of punishes with the fsmash and pivoting the fsmash. I also find it easier to use the C-stick for trapping landings with usmash as I can just push the C stick up instead of having to use the control stick+A. In the end, it depends on what you're looking to do exactly. By default, I'd leave it on smash instead of tilt.

 

[Marilink]

^I know. I was saying that Tap Jump is a reason I set my stick to Attack.

Edited my post to make it clearer what I meant.

 

[Ventus55]

Ok guys I will now set mine to smash Attack

 

[Shack]

Ok guys I will now set mine to smash Attack

C Stick to Smash for more casual play, but if you're looking to get really good and maybe even play some tournaments I would go with tilts because it's not that hard to get used to and unlocks huge potential for Greninja since his UTilt is awesome with Perfect Pivots.

 

[David Galanos]

C Stick to Smash for more casual play, but if you're looking to get really good and maybe even play some tournaments I would go with tilts because it's not that hard to get used to and unlocks huge potential for Greninja since his UTilt is awesome with Perfect Pivots.

you really think it's worth giving up easier smash attacks? Is it really that good? I can see Utilt being good but does he slide far

 

[Shack]

you really think it's worth giving up easier smash attacks? Is it really that good? I can see Utilt being good but does he slide far

Short answer, Yes.
Long answer, Yes. Wave dashing became a necessity in melee. The movement options ups your game to another level. Watch aMSa play if you haven't yet. Smashes aren't hard to get used to, you just have to up your execution. UTilt and DTilt are awesome because they both lead into combos and kill moves. The amount of options that open up by being able to pivot into or away from someone out weighs easy access smashes. Look at it like this:

C Stick Smash PP
- jab
- dsmash
- usmash
- fsmash

C Stick Tilts PP
- jab
- utilt
- dtilt
- ftilt
- dsmash
- usmash
- fsmash

 

[TheOnlyGBeast]

is it known that instead of doing a walljump after a wallstick you can just press a jump button to do an extra air jump while retaining your normal second jump?

 

[Shack]

you really think it's worth giving up easier smash attacks? Is it really that good? I can see Utilt being good but does he slide far

Here's a good example of what you can do with pivot UTilts.


Also the more I think about it, you can already to a running USmash and running Pivot FSmash, so the only thing you gain from Perfect Pivot Smashes really is DTilt. But it is not easy, even now I still am adjusting. It feels kind of like getting used to playing on a Stick versus a Pad for Street Fighter, or Xbox vs PS controllers. Somehting feels off, but you will get used to it eventually.

 

[David Galanos]

is it known that instead of doing a walljump after a wallstick you can just press a jump button to do an extra air jump while retaining your normal second jump?

hmm, didn't know that. I rarely use wall jumps cause I usually don't need to/ can't. Btw I follow u on twitter (@SmashDiscussion)

Here's a good example of what you can do with pivot UTilts.


Also the more I think about it, you can already to a running USmash and running Pivot FSmash, so the only thing you gain from Perfect Pivot Smashes really is DTilt. But it is not easy, even now I still am adjusting. It feels kind of like getting used to playing on a Stick versus a Pad for Street Fighter, or Xbox vs PS controllers. Somehting feels off, but you will get used to it eventually.

Yeah it seems pretty useful. I changed my c stick to smash attacks the other day but I would lose because I would try too hard to perfect pivot and i wouldn't focus on other things

Ok wow I can't believe I didn't realize this. I saw a vine (can't link it cause I'm on mobile right now) where an olimar used his side b on Greninja and the Greninja just countered him, could this be the answer to Olimars annoying side b? It's hard to deal with for me. My thought is if you can get punished for countering everytime an olimar hits you with a side b, cause it has that startup and if it's just being done over and over he can predict it. Thoughts?

 

[Garlien]

Ok wow I can't believe I didn't realize this. I saw a vine (can't link it cause I'm on mobile right now) where an olimar used his side b on Greninja and the Greninja just countered him, could this be the answer to Olimars annoying side b? It's hard to deal with for me. My thought is if you can get punished for countering everytime an olimar hits you with a side b, cause it has that startup and if it's just being done over and over he can predict it. Thoughts?

Nair is a good way to get rid of Pikmin.

 

[Spirst]

Ok wow I can't believe I didn't realize this. I saw a vine (can't link it cause I'm on mobile right now) where an olimar used his side b on Greninja and the Greninja just countered him, could this be the answer to Olimars annoying side b? It's hard to deal with for me. My thought is if you can get punished for countering everytime an olimar hits you with a side b, cause it has that startup and if it's just being done over and over he can predict it. Thoughts?

Yeah, I'd been doing this vs Olimar for sometime now and is one of the reasons I like Greninja vs Olimar more than DH vs Olimar. When a pikmin latches onto you, you can either try to rid them off of you (nair) or activate your substitute. Combine this with the Substitute lock-on property where within a certain range, it lacks onto the projectile user (Olimar's pikmin are projectiles) rather than projectile, and you'll be able to potentially KO him each time a Pikmin is latched onto you. I wouldn't spam this everytime pikmin are on you but it's certainly a nice surprise option to have.

Also, David, try to watch posting 3 times in a row. I've merged the posts this time but next time you have more to say, you should use the Edit button.

 

[Marilink]

Nair is a good way to get rid of Pikmin.

Not the blue ones.

 

[_aeth]

Hey, I'd like to get into sm4sh - i've never taken a fighting game seriously before - and I think I'll start by learning some Greninja. What's something I can do to practice on my own and get into a good understanding of his fundamentals before trying to learn fancy stuff or matchups? If I just play AI matches I'll fall into really lame mashy spammy habits.

Sorry if this question belongs somewhere else!

 

[MartinAW4]

Hey, I'd like to get into sm4sh - i've never taken a fighting game seriously before - and I think I'll start by learning some Greninja. What's something I can do to practice on my own and get into a good understanding of his fundamentals before trying to learn fancy stuff or matchups? If I just play AI matches I'll fall into really lame mashy spammy habits.

Sorry if this question belongs somewhere else!

Short hop fast fall aerials are something you can practice alone and are very important in Greninja`s gameplay.
First learn to short hop and fast fall at the apex of your jump. Since you cannot fast fall before you reach the apex of your jump, this is the fastest way to perform short hop -> fast fall (SHFF).
Then once you can SHFF consistently, try to input an aerial between the SH and FF so that you hit the opponent standing on the ground.
Start with SHFF Nair, then SHFF Fair and SHFF Bair. Fair is the hardest to learn, but also the strongest and safest if spaced right. And practice against a small opponent like Pikachu to make sure that you`ll hit every character in the game, not just the big ones.

 

[Shack]

hmm, didn't know that. I rarely use wall jumps cause I usually don't need to/ can't. Btw I follow u on twitter (@SmashDiscussion)


Yeah it seems pretty useful. I changed my c stick to smash attacks the other day but I would lose because I would try too hard to perfect pivot and i wouldn't focus on other things

Ok wow I can't believe I didn't realize this. I saw a vine (can't link it cause I'm on mobile right now) where an olimar used his side b on Greninja and the Greninja just countered him, could this be the answer to Olimars annoying side b? It's hard to deal with for me. My thought is if you can get punished for countering everytime an olimar hits you with a side b, cause it has that startup and if it's just being done over and over he can predict it. Thoughts?

Yeah I saw that one too, I think it's from Nepia also. I think it's a good idea to use counter even if he knows it's coming. In the video he used the Up version which sent him high enough to avoid any punishment. The only thing to test would be if Olimar can maybe perfectly time an attack to hit you out of the counter attack :/

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah I saw that one too, I think it's from Nepia also. I think it's a good idea to use counter even if he knows it's coming. In the video he used the Up version which sent him high enough to avoid any punishment. The only thing to test would be if Olimar can maybe perfectly time an attack to hit you out of the counter attack :/

Yeah, but if he's doing that then you can mix up between directions I would guess

 

[_aeth]

Short hop fast fall aerials are something you can practice alone and are very important in Greninja`s gameplay.
First learn to short hop and fast fall at the apex of your jump. Since you cannot fast fall before you reach the apex of your jump, this is the fastest way to perform short hop -> fast fall (SHFF).
Then once you can SHFF consistently, try to input an aerial between the SH and FF so that you hit the opponent standing on the ground.
Start with SHFF Nair, then SHFF Fair and SHFF Bair. Fair is the hardest to learn, but also the strongest and safest if spaced right. And practice against a small opponent like Pikachu to make sure that you`ll hit every character in the game, not just the big ones.

Awesome, thanks! I played Marth back when I was a super casual Melee player and everyone told me to try to use SH techniques, so I think I have context for this.

My setup's being used at a friend's tourney right now, actually, but as soon as it's back I'll start practicing and maybe come back with some more questions.

 

[Shack]

Yeah, but if he's doing that then you can mix up between directions I would guess

I believe Up might be the only safe one since it leaves you to far away to punish. All the others are risky if he blocks or spot doges.

 

[Snackss]

I've noticed some Greninja turn around midair with Water Shuriken. What's the input for that? I have to assume it's a pivot, but it's done in midair and I've never seen any other character do anything like it.

And how often do people use back air in neutral? Is it safer than neutral air?

 

[David Galanos]

I've noticed some Greninja turn around midair with Water Shuriken. What's the input for that? I have to assume it's a pivot, but it's done in midair and I've never seen any other character do anything like it.

And how often do people use back air in neutral? Is it safer than neutral air?

That would be a be reversal. You press b in the air and immediately move the control stick in the opposite direction you are going which will shift your momentum

 

[Snackss]

Is there any other kind of tech to know about? Really can be tough to keep a good distance as Greninja.

 

[David Galanos]

Is there any other kind of tech to know about? Really can be tough to keep a good distance as Greninja.

There's also wavebouncing and turn arounds which are a little different. Go look at the Orginal Post on the Advance Techniques thread for Greninja to see details about it and for other techniques

 

[moofpi]

Hey ninjas, I've been wondering about Greninja's log/doll left behind after Substitute. Does it have any practical use like Villager's bit of wood after cutting down the tree? I know you can't pick it up, but can you Dtilt it as a projectile or anything? Or is it just a temporary projectile sponge or useless object?

 

[FullMoon]

Hey ninjas, I've been wondering about Greninja's log/doll left behind after Substitute. Does it have any practical use like Villager's bit of wood after cutting down the tree? I know you can't pick it up, but can you Dtilt it as a projectile or anything? Or is it just a temporary projectile sponge or useless object?

That.

It does have an interesting use though, if you aim your Substitute upwards and follow up with a d-air, Greninja will hit and bounce on the doll/log. It can catch people offguard sometimes but other than that, it's just scenary for the most part.

If Greninja could pick them up and throw them, or at least hit them on the opponent like Pac-Man's hydrant, it would be such a cool move. Alas.

 

[moofpi]

That.

It does have an interesting use though, if you aim your Substitute upwards and follow up with a d-air, Greninja will hit and bounce on the doll/log. It can catch people offguard sometimes but other than that, it's just scenary for the most part.

If Greninja could pick them up and throw them, or at least hit them on the opponent like Pac-Man's hydrant, it would be such a cool move. Alas.

So if you do that Dair offstage it couldn't just bop them like Sonic's spring and gimp? Kind of sucks that it doesn't have a little more utility. I secondary Wii Fit Trainer and I still hold to that if when she canceled her header and the ball dropped to her feet, if it retained a little hitbox like Sonic's spring and could gimp by the ledge, it would seriously push her up the tier list a few notches at least. But alas, one must wait for the Big Ball custom for any soccer ball shenanigans.

 

[Shack]

Has anyone else realized how unreliable shff nair has become? It seems like everyone is shield grabbing me out of it like in this clip. I am trying to adjust by mixing it up with landing behind them sometimes or empty jumping into grabs/jabs, but I often eat an attack in retaliation. Any suggestions on some new tech for nairs?

 

[David Galanos]

Has anyone else realized how unreliable shff nair has become? It seems like everyone is shield grabbing me out of it like in this clip. I am trying to adjust by mixing it up with landing behind them sometimes or empty jumping into grabs/jabs, but I often eat an attack in retaliation. Any suggestions on some new tech for nairs?

I've noticed this too. One thing people seem to know and look out for is his SHFF Nair, so if they are shield grabbing me, I will just about never use it in the neutral. If they know you like to do it and no one has an advantage they will more than likely shield grab. So yeah I just use it less and only use it when I can which isn't always easy.