Phantom7
Banned via Warnings
Smash Bros.? We might as well include the Tingle games, the CDi games, and Zelda Game & Watch as well.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Legend of Zelda Timeline Discussion
- Thread starter Spire
- Start date
Scott!
Smash Lord
Why would you include Smash? It's clearly not Zelda canon, since it isn't a Zelda game. Plus, Brawl would have to take place in both, non-unified timelines at the same time for TL and Link to both be there. Also, it wasn't created at all by the Zelda team.
The only games that could be considered retold versions of the same story are:
- Legend of Zelda
- A Link to the Past
- Ocarina of Time
- Wind Waker
- Four Swords Adventures
- Twilight Princess
- [maybe] Oracle of Seasons/Ages
Direct sequels are listed here:
- Adventure of Link (LoZ)
- Majora's Mask (OoT)
- Phantom Hourglass (WW)
Completely different and/or seemingly unrelated to anything else:
- Link's Awakening
- Four Swords
- The Minish Cap
So, if any of the games are the same story told in a different way, that belongs to seven (eight counting Oracles separately) out of the 14 released titles total. Where do the others go? Are they all considered spin-offs? Of course not. If it weren't for Majora's Mask, there would probably be no split timeline (Twilight Princess solidified this when Aonuma confirmed it).
Also, we all know Phantom Hourglass is a direct sequel to Wind Waker, as it picks up right where WW left off. We know now that Spirit Tracks also takes place 100 years after PH. So what do those three games alone confirm? That there is a timeline.
Also, I'd like to quote Miyamoto:
Denying it is foolish.
Tingle is cool though.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Here ei is
That doesn't mean we accept his game into the timeline. Where do you propose we put this game, good sir? Post-post apocalyptic Termina? YES. There we have it. Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland officially takes in the adult timeline after the world itself has ended. Yes, that makes perfect sense.
Tingle is Link though, Link is her own mother from the past and Tingle is Link gone insane upon realizing that she is her own mother.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Best theory ever......
or GTFO
Edit: This is a serious thread though, I should contribute but..... I'm confused on the Minish Cap area. Could someone explain why this come first as I've never played it.
You're right, and this is some serious business here.
Maybe not the best theory, but a theory indeed.
Bottom left, this is an actual timeline I've seen.
I do find it uncouth in that you know that SteveT and Masamune simply wanted to create a timeline in the shape of a triangle for the sake of doing so. Creative, yet perhaps too much. Seeing as how the timeline has been a shifty point of interest for both the Zelda audience and creators, I doubt it follows the path of a triangle. Besides, there's no proof of traveling ahead or back in time in the games besides OoT, MM, and TP (Temple of Time dungeon).
Nevertheless, interesting.
Nevertheless, interesting.
I don't even recognize the two individuals, I just pulled that timeline off EncyclopediaDramatica.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Ugh, why make the timeline more complicated with geometry? I'm not even gonna LOOK at something to that nature because it resembles geometry so much. Math= Worst subject evar.
But, uhh... How are the Capcom games not-canon? They are totally legitimate and we are NOT taking them out of the timeline.
edit: I will start an anti-capcom exclusion federation if I must. Simply will not be allowed due to my love of these games.
But, uhh... How are the Capcom games not-canon? They are totally legitimate and we are NOT taking them out of the timeline.
edit: I will start an anti-capcom exclusion federation if I must. Simply will not be allowed due to my love of these games.
I don't recognize them either, merely stating their names since they're on the image. And since it's from EncyclopediaDramatica, I can't take that seriously at all.
But math is so great!
I love the Capcom games too, but the fact that they all include identical characters from other games (notably OoT and MM), simply given different roles, they're playing the role that Termina did with Hyrule - counterparting. BUT, TMC is based in Hyrule, so why have Malon and Talon among others? These games are far too cameo-filled, including the bonus "Master Sword" item in the Oracles, Twinrova, Jabu Jabu, etc, etc. The Oracle games seem to have been developed to capitalize on the huge audience that the N64 games established, by reintroducing characters from those games with new roles so as to not alienate the audience with a slew of unrecognizable characters.
TMC did the same thing, but in Toon Style, drawing inspiration from WW also.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Yes, but despite the Oracle games being "cameo-filled" and so describe as a remake of sorts, it is still a story, it still happened in the Zelda Universe, in its own time, in its own place. Therefore, they belong in the timeline for being ZELDA GAMES. As simple as that. However, I realize saying this makes it seem logical to put the CD-i games in the timeline, however, let me point out that these games do not bear the title, Legend of Zelda, they are simply called Link: Faces of Evil and Zelda: Wand of Gamelon. There you have it.
Phantom7
Banned via Warnings
Yeah, the CDi games are spin-offs that really shouldn't have happened, so they definitely don't belong in the timeline.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Well, they had potential, that is until Nintendo bailed on Philips leaving them with nothing but a copyright and a tight budget. So tight in fact, that some of the backgrounds were simply pictures taken by the staff while on vacation. That, and they hired no-name voice actors and crummy Russian animators. While the Oracle games garnered an impressive 8 million copies sold, as opposed to Philips, what, 100 copies sold? I feel that the Capcom games are legitimate enough to be canon. I mean, we've included them in the timeline all this time, so why take them out?
Scott!
Smash Lord
It's not necessarily that we want to take them out. I think we just have to understand that it's very possible that they aren't part of the official timeline, due to them being developed by Capcom. Also, sales #s shouldn't mean anything as far as the timeline is concerned.
Thank you.
I would never want to take the Oracles out, as they're absolutely wonderful games -- but, in-game content is at the top of the timeline-factor hierarchy, tied with developer statements. The fact that all three of Capcom's games recycle old characters and concepts really says something about the strength that the games hold among the timeline. Their bonds are weak due to the mega-rehashing. While Link, Zelda, and Ganon come back time and again for good and explained reason, characters like Malon, Talon, Ingo, King Zora, Happy Mask Salesman, Twinrova, Tingle (although not as much anymore) etc, etc, make no sense - especially when they appear exactly as they did in OoT and MM. It seems as if the Oracle games were created as spin-off sequels to MM, where Link returns to Hyrule on Epona and is then warped to two other parallel worlds where the same characters are seen in new roles [again]. The fact that they were in development during MM's development/release further supports this.
But we know this is impossible because Ganondorf was in the process of being banished to the Twilight Realm at this time - not killed, which he would need to have been in order to be resurrected by Twinrova as seen in the Oracles. Capcom may not have known or realized that the timeline split, and Ganon was not defeated during the time of Majora's Mask, so they drew simply from the fact that he was defeated in Ocarina of Time, and seeing as how MM was a sequel, assumed that he was indefinitely gone - hence, Twinrova's inclination to resurrect him. Also, Link meets Zelda for the first time in the linked Oracles, which is entirely false. Also, Impa is a large woman, not a fit ninja. The Oracles cannot follow MM, despite their obvious relations. Capcom changed up the storyline too much, which may have been Nintendo's doing in order to prevent the games from fitting canonically.
Now, this isn't to say that the Oracles don't take place somewhere far down the line in one of the timelines (most likely the Adult Timeline), but they definitely don't follow MM, despite them probably being designed as such back then. To me, they seem the most like publicity games to raise the sales of OoT, MM, and themselves, as they share characters and elements with the N64 games.
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Oh well. Non-canon or not, these games are fantastic.
Guys, I've devised a way to include all of the games in the timeline righteously. I'm drafting an enormous post that I hope to get up as soon as possible. I'm sure it will be worthwhile 
EDIT: Here's a visual of the timeline with minor explanations. I will go into great depth to explain everything once I can actually get to bed, get some rest, and resume work in the morning (meaning 2 in the afternoon). Hope you enjoy:
EDIT: Here's a visual of the timeline with minor explanations. I will go into great depth to explain everything once I can actually get to bed, get some rest, and resume work in the morning (meaning 2 in the afternoon). Hope you enjoy:
toon_marth
Smash Ace
Nice visual! It really helps understand it for me. What program did you use for this, Photoshop?
Darkurai
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2007
- Messages
- 3,012
Interesting. I can't wait to see this post, as I can't seem to piece this together myself.Guys, I've devised a way to include all of the games in the timeline righteously. I'm drafting an enormous post that I hope to get up as soon as possible. I'm sure it will be worthwhile
EDIT: Here's a visual of the timeline with minor explanations. I will go into great depth to explain everything once I can actually get to bed, get some rest, and resume work in the morning (meaning 2 in the afternoon). Hope you enjoy:
Yes, I used Photoshop. It's my best friend after all
You can ask any questions. In fact, by doing so, it'll probably help my progress in writing this all up.
Darkurai
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2007
- Messages
- 3,012
No specific questions, actually. I don't see anything wrong with it, but there is a difference between someone putting together a graph with no contradictions and someone actually going in and providing evidence. That's why I anticipate the post that will have the evidence.
I've posted in the OP the beginning of this enormous project. Check it out
Phantom7
Banned via Warnings
Hmm...
Honestly, I seriously doubt TMC belongs in the spot you placed it, Spire. That description of the Hero of Men sounds absolutely nothing like the past Links before where you placed TMC. Besides, even though you said not to mention it, it doesn't make any sense that the Hero of Men does not wear a cap, but you theorize that he may be the Hero of Time, who definitely wore a cap. Besides, the Hero of Time wielded the Master Sword, not the Picori Sword.
And the Light Force is simply the Triforce as a whole, just like the Golden Power mentioned in ALttP. When a similar name is given to the Triforce, it has always meant the Triforce as a whole.
Although you mention that the story could be heavily distorted, doesn't seem more likely that the Hero of Men story is simply a completely different story? I'm sure there's a reason he is referred to as the Hero of Men instead of the Hero of Time. And notice how detailed the Hero of Men story is -- notice how it includes unrelated elements like the "Bound Chest" and the "Minish". WW's Hero of Time story is a vague summary of what the Hero of Time did, but it does not include any unrelated elements that make it sound like a completely different Hero.
Honestly, I seriously doubt TMC belongs in the spot you placed it, Spire. That description of the Hero of Men sounds absolutely nothing like the past Links before where you placed TMC. Besides, even though you said not to mention it, it doesn't make any sense that the Hero of Men does not wear a cap, but you theorize that he may be the Hero of Time, who definitely wore a cap. Besides, the Hero of Time wielded the Master Sword, not the Picori Sword.
And the Light Force is simply the Triforce as a whole, just like the Golden Power mentioned in ALttP. When a similar name is given to the Triforce, it has always meant the Triforce as a whole.
Although you mention that the story could be heavily distorted, doesn't seem more likely that the Hero of Men story is simply a completely different story? I'm sure there's a reason he is referred to as the Hero of Men instead of the Hero of Time. And notice how detailed the Hero of Men story is -- notice how it includes unrelated elements like the "Bound Chest" and the "Minish". WW's Hero of Time story is a vague summary of what the Hero of Time did, but it does not include any unrelated elements that make it sound like a completely different Hero.
- NEW POLL UP! Please vote and explain why you chose what you did. -
You're probably right. It's the fact that the Minish Cap Hyrule resembles and is so closely related to the FS/FSA Hyrule and well, basically all that follow that I find it hard to place before OoT. If we simply give the game a good amount of time between WW/PH and itself, a lot can happen - enough to warrant its "Hero of Men legend" room to take its course to set up TMC. Who knows though, Spirit Tracks may reveal even more.
It may be very possible that after this new Hyrule was founded, the "Link" tradition died off.
However, it may also be possible that seeing as how the Hyrule from TMC, FS, and FSA is indefinitely the same due to the games being part of the same story arc (albeit not directly connected), it can be inferred that perhaps there was some sort of drain at one point due to the incredibly vegetative and aquatic Hyrule in TMC. As the Great Deku Tree's plan continues working (with such growing trees as the Makus in both Oracles), the land dries more.
If TMC was based before OoT, then how in the world has Link recovered the Four Sword in Four Swords if Hyrule did not drain? Basically, that's saying that Vaati was sealed in the Four Sword through the entirety of OoT. Now, I might believe this if we could discern why there are so many inconsistencies between TMC's and OoT's Hyrule. The only similarities are Hyrule Castle/Town, Lake Hylia (which is very different) and strangely enough, Lon Lon Ranch. Similarities end there. There's a certain "Mt. Crenel" which would either be pre-Death Mountain, or just a reinvisioning of it altogether.
After Link and Zelda found a "new Hyrule" wherever it is, a lot had to be done to rebuild from the ground up. It would take a considerably long time to reestablish customs and traditions. I'm sure they named certain locations as homages to the Hyrule of old if it's indeed an entirely new land rather than the the results of a drained Hyrule.
EDIT: Now above all else is the importance of the Triforce. If it's absent from a game, then you move on to the next priorities, but it most definitely makes an appearance of a sort in The Minish Cap. The "Light Force" is represented by one single golden triangle though, and Zelda is the bearer of it. The Hero of Men bore a Light Force, but not necessarily the same one that Zelda has.
Now, this could mean one of two things:
- Light Force simply refers to one piece of the Triforce
- Light Force is the fabled "Tetraforce"; the completed Triangle.
If it's the Tetraforce (which I highly doubt), then TMC is based before OoT. If it's simply one piece of the Triforce, then TMC takes place after OoT.
Remember, OoT is THE first time that the Triforce is split - when Ganon touches it. If there was a Tetraforce before it, and for whatever reason following TMC, a piece disappeared from it making it the Triforce, then that would explain why Ganondorf's claiming of the Triforce split it for the first time, because before then, it would not have been able to be split. However, this is all fan-fiction, and what should be extremely considered is the fact that...
CAPCOM MADE THE MINISH CAP! They also made the Oracle games, which - like I've said before - are extremely cameo-driven. Well TMC is no different. So, while it wouldn't be fair to exclude Capcom's game from the timeline, they should not be taken as seriously as the 1st party titles. Aonuma clearly stated at the time of TP's release that OoT is the first game in the series in an interview regarding the placement of TP on the timeline (which led to the outbreak of "split timeline").
There are key components within the Zelda games that take priority over everything else. These are (in a quickly assembled hiearchy):
1. Triforce
2. Master Sword
3. Link, Zelda, and Ganon
4. Main plot points
5. Geography
Those first three should especially be taken into consideration when forming the timeline, with the Triforce having the absolute domination. Everything that suggests, supports, hints to, are flat out reads the "Triforce" must be taken as 100% fact. The series is about the Triforce, always has been, and always will be.
Sequels like MM and PH that have little-to-nothing to do with the Triforce are exceptions because a) they are 1st party games, and b) they can simply be seen as continuations from their heavily Triforce-based predecessors.
Scott!
Smash Lord
I believe that MC was created as a prequel to OoT by a company with a lot of creative license and not a lot of caring about consistency on the level we want. I believe that it was meant to describe the origins of Vaati and of the hero's tradition of the hat. I think that Capcom did their own thing with regards to the map and people, taking names they liked from other games. That to me seems the most likely.
jumpman9793
Smash Apprentice
I think Ocarina is first and that Minish cap is the first game in the "adult" part of the split timeline. I think that showing how Link got his hat isnt enough evidence to say that it is first in the timeline.
Well played, Scott. Well played.
So you believe that TMC comes before WW?
I'd like to hear your justification before giving my input.
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
I haven't played Minish Cap yet! It's one of the few that I haven't played.
Guess I better go finish it before this poll closes, lol
Guess I better go finish it before this poll closes, lol
jumpman9793
Smash Apprentice
I figure that since Hyrule was flooded in Wind Waker, Minish Cap and the Four Swords games came before WW. I dont see how they couldve come after WW and PH unless the ocean receeded and left a "new" Hyrule. I heard that Spirit Tracks will revolve around the discovery of a new Hyrule, but trains never existed in MC and FS so they probably came before those games.
The only problem with that is the fact that the WW intro clearly states that there was never a hero, which is why Ganon succeeded in corrupting Hyrule, so the Great Flood was issued. TMC and FS being placed before WW gives Hyrule two heroes, while at separate times, one of them was bound to be around when Ganon came back.
Plus, in TMC, the Triforce (referred to as the Light Force) was fully assembled, whereas during this time, the Triforce was split.
Rapax
Smash Apprentice
Hmm, what about this video?
Entirely inaccurate and full of fan-fiction.
Also, I've added a new timeline to the OP in place of that long "code" of a piece. After a lot of work, this new one turned out about 95% identically to the old pictoral timeline that we had. But, included in the image are important facts regarding the timeline. It's the most concrete timeline I've come up with (credit goes to quite a number of you over the numerous months of discussion that have gone into the subject).
Rapax
Smash Apprentice
Ok, sorry for posting this.
I'm sitting in my office and be bored. So i looked around and founded it. I watched it a bit and wanted to know what you say about it^^
Sorry for being silly
Btw. i really like your timeline post on the first page. I'm sure you invested much time to do this. Thanks for that.
But i think TMC is to place after OoT but before WW. I'm not sure how to explain it^^
I will think of it and when i know how to post, i will post my statement.
Hey, don't beat yourself up man. No worriesOk, sorry for posting this.
I'm sitting in my office and be bored. So i looked around and founded it. I watched it a bit and wanted to know what you say about it^^
Sorry for being silly
Btw. i really like your timeline post on the first page. I'm sure you invested much time to do this. Thanks for that.
But i think TMC is to place after OoT but before WW. I'm not sure how to explain it^^
I will think of it and when i know how to post, i will post my statement.
And I'm looking forward to what you have to come up with. Remember, if you can formulate a timeline that gains enough support from people, I'll create it in the style of my own and add it to the OP. So please, I encourage you to do research: play the games, read Zelda Wiki, maybe watch videos on Youtube (they can often be very derailed and forced), and do whatever you can think of to help progress and expand your knowledge on the series. I want to get as many people as possible active in this thread.
We must work!