Time Travelers - Town wins! Time travel mechanics rarely used!

[Nicholas1024]

Nah, we're not using that corrupt structure Kawaii, we're going with the classic King Nicholas and the Knights of the Town Table.

 

[Reyth]

Nabe is town because... he supposedly has a townie mindset. He won't quote examples (although they should be easy for him to dig up, supposedly being 3/4's of Nabe's posts), but it's scum hunting!

Sure I can go through and make an ISO WALL with town-oriented scum hunting posts from Nabe. Is that what you really want me to do? I probably will if this crappy wagon keeps up.

And he says that instead of noticing that Nabe doesn't post scum reads with reasoning and taking that as a scum tell

Nabe has stated he keeps his reads close to his vest on purpose. That being said, there is no reason not to post one's top 3-4 scum reads with reasoning and especially when requested.

somehow he failed to notice that I've BEEN asking for it and been ignored

Nabe should respond to this.

there's only one lynch push he's made and maybe 2 scum reads with reasoning. In all of 2500 posts. And that one lynch push was me at a time where EVERYONE had me as dumb or scum, and Nabe needed to come up with content or look suspicious. And that nothing new was brought to the table, but it was basically Nabe looking at Reyth's post and changing his mind on me.

He has a scum read on you with a valid scum tell. That is worth something at least. He has said he will be discussing his other scum reads shortly and I look forward to that.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

You people.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

So, trying to accomplish something is a bad thing? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, especially since I think what he's trying to accomplish is actual scum hunting.

You asked me why Swiss was scummier than PTSD or Zen. That sets up a frame -- which is scummier? Obviously it's Swiss, since the others aren't showing any motive to do anything and Swiss is. It's cool that you think he's scumhunting; I disagree, but that has nothing to do with the question you asked me.

And actually I was using your logic to disprove your position, which shows that one of them is false.

You disproved... what, exactly? How was it anything except the same **** you put in every post, where you just trumpet the same things I say back to me until I bleed from my eyes?

Hmph. I put everyone at "null until proven guilty/innocent", and so do most people. My town reads are based on them actually doing town stuff, I just want your main scum reads WITH REASONING!

There's no discrepancy; null is by definition innocent, only scum is guilty.

What you're telling me is that you townhunt, which is cool, but not when you pair it on a coin with scum on the other face. You're condemning me because you think I lack on the town side rather than because I'm scummy, and you and I both know I can't defend against it; I've said as much. Even in posting the reads post, I can never get back to equal ground, and the same would be true of anyone in my situation, which is why it's obvious that the system of judgment you put forward is flawed. There's no redemption.

But I think that flaw is by design. You could not be this wrong. This push on me accounts for a fault in your own play, that you haven't looked at scummy actions at all -- only ones that aren't proper town. You're the one who's not scumhunting, and I'll be showcasing that toMorrow.

 

[July]

Reyth I don't think I've ever disagreed with someone so heavily and constantly. I'm just going to acknowledge the humour in your posts and laugh .

July/Zen/Swiss/Ran please join the "Team Nabe" wagon . There are seats, sweets and treats for all!! Reyth promises love... but DOES HE HAVE A Thundercougarfalconbird!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cRy_2IgnEg

Of course I will support the Nabe wagon.

Vote: Nabe

I remember Vandy expressing doubt of Nabe's "towniness" in the beginning of the Day and all of us kind of talking him away from that. However, after around the first 1000 posts I found Nabe much harder to read and his push back against Nich memorable not for scumhunting, but really dismissal of Nich's case. It looks more like he is toying with Nich than actually trying to resolve something. I'm also not happy with how Nabe got on the SK wagon and that wagon took off so suddenly, the people who really didn't explain their vote (an issue I brought up with T-Block initially) I question their motives.

Btw Vanz/July and to a certain extent Grey as he's just that desperate to know - we should talk about what wii should plan to do in twilight - I'm thinking of saving the speed-up until i get at least one scum flip first, that way i can determine trails and maximise efficiency in hitting the scummies (and best case would be 2 consecutively - I've done this before... many times ). I expect good results. As for the "other game" - I have no clue what to expect from this.

Honestly I trust you to make the best decision for what to do with your roles, especially because with the speed up it sounds like you have a lot of confidence in when to use it.

But I feel I've made it very clear how I reached a town read on him. That is to say, by doing absolutely nothing at all. Innocent until proven guilty -- for every time you've said "oh my god what scum", I've thought "but why is she not seeing the ways that he could be town here when there's no reason to consider the options less than equally?" and in several cases I've addressed as much vocally. I'm curious as to why you think I haven't considered others' opinions on him -- whose opinions do you mean?

But I would have liked to see you actively scumhunting on DeGrey once you took that read into your own hands. Even though you say that read is now your own read on him, you also say that you reached that by doing nothing because he's "innocent until proven guilty". But that's definitely not the attitude you had towards most of the people on your lost of people you would lynch. So why assume innocence, or town motivation, with DeGrey over potential scum motivation? Like...I'm not sure I understand. If you say he's innocent until proven guilty, then basically he starts out as a town read for you, and since you say "there's no reason to consider the options less than equally" of town v. scum motivation, that means you view them as equally likely of being town or scum motivated it seems so those actions should be null because you admit there is credibility to the other side. Which makes sense with what you say but I find fault with this innocence until proven guilty concept...when everyone enters the game they are null to me, not innocent aka town until proven guilty aka scum. They are null and then go from there, but in your plan starting with innocent until proven guilty and then considering equal possibility of town/scum motivation for everything that DeGrey does means that from the beginning your read on him was biased towards innocence.

I don't think you considered .jpg, KK, or my own opinions of DeGrey with any weight because as you said, you always looked at the other side and gave that more weight or equal weight to keep DeGrey town (or null but with the overall read of town).

Obviously there's been some miscommunication here. By on the face, I mean the following:

Hermione Granger (Harry Potter), town know-it-all (with an explanation that makes sense [and it feels like an OS role])
Link (OoT), town I-don't-remember the title (SK, remind me what it is?)
but actually Link (LoZelda), town etc.
who has three abilities whose names are seemingly wrong.

Of the two, Degrey's is better on the face, in that it's not inherently scummy. There is nothing wrong with DeGrey's claim while there is something very clearly wrong with SK's. Speaking purely of claims, DeGrey's is better, and those are the things that have affected my read. The mod-confirmation of SK's has not; as has been mentioned, what's relevant is that it could be a scum role. Maybe someone stole the ocarina! (Silly but w/e) Or maybe the role has a stipulation that says they can use any in-thread command they want for the role, and that OS will stick to it, sort of an illusion-based power. It doesn't matter -- because alternate explanations exist, what matters is how SK mishandled their claim, and their poor play in total. DeGrey's, on the other hand, is very null -- if they're town, they're telling the truth, and if they're scum it's a lie. If we later get information that tells us it's a lie, then it is. For now there's no reason to believe it's untrue.

Ah kk, I understand better now. And while I do agree that DeGrey's claim is not inherently scummy, you infer that SK's is with that statement when really even if they mishandled their claim I don't see how their role is inherently scummy. Also, you say that DeGrey's claim is better and those are the things that have affected your read, which you have stated is a town read on DeGrey, but later on you say that DeGrey's claim is null. With DeGrey there seems to be a lot of nulls have lead to a town read, or a lot of consideration for possible town motivation but there is also scum motivation behind many of their actions and you just seem resistant to give that weight.

Your interpretation could be valid. In actuality I don't remember anything about it, but what I do know is that I provided another interpretation and you agreed that it was also viable, thus proving that you were only looking at one half of the spectrum without any reason to not consider the other. If you have other points that you feel I'm missing, let me know.

No I'm good, I do understand that you are right and there is a necessity to consider if something can have town motivation, scum motivation, or gut. But I feel like there is a spectrum, and things get weighed differently, and for some actions there may be a chance there is town motivation behind it but scum motivation is more likely or would be more productive from the player than if they were town, and vice versa. For those reasons while I can consider that DeGrey's actions could also be town motivated, there are stronger reasons to act as he has if he is scum and for that reason I believe there has been scum motivation behind many of his actions that deserves serious consideration.

A "brick wall" lol.
There's a difference between reading someone and being able to identify when reads aren't wholly correct. I told you that your read had a second side because it did -- you acknowledged as much. I told VG the same because his read had a second side as well; his read was plainly not acknowledging an obvious town-motive possibility which is what I addressed. In actually reading Degrey, I haven't touched any two-side ideas and instead I've been content with his play, which hasn't seemed to have scum strategies, posturing, etcetera. The reasoning people say you have tunnel vision is because you're only seeing one perspective, the one where your target is scum.

Yes, but even if a read has another side, you have to look at one side and at possible town reasons for his behavior, look at the other side and possible scum reasons for his behavior, and decide which side is more likely. There may have been a town-motive possibility but there was also an obvious scum-motive possibility for his action so saying he is wrong to look at it that way is shutting down his interpretation of the event which might be legitimate and a solid reason for concern. The problem is I've looked at DeGrey's actions from both sides, but I have seen a lot of possible scum motivation behind his posts to manipulate and deceive people that stands out more than the possible town motivations of his posts, such as his wanting to help prevent Nich from being a possible mislynch, but now Nich is on the top of his lynch list so I doubt that was genuine now even more than when it happened.

It's like J is speaking through you.
Anyway, you clearly know which lynch you want to be on ("Nabe is the best lynch imo") and shouldn't need to ask KK where your vote should go... and certainly not in public in any case, as that opens up the possibility that it's you posing for the camera. We know you're part of a whole -- take it to QT like a hydra would.

Honestly a bit, I trust J's reads as well as Vandy's and when I'm not able to keep up or get a solid read I have faith in theirs. Also I did ask in the qt, but I hadn't received a response yet so I posted it here as well.

I think it is strange how Ran's activity has dropped. That actually began as soon as suspicion started being thrown his way.

@July: You have a 100% town read on Ran -- what do you think about his strange lack of activity?

Ran has been helping me move my friend into her apartment in the city, so he's been as inactive as I have been for the same reasons (except he's actually be doing stuff like building dressers while I've been decorating )

Wtf that was a very fast flip from all three of you...

I agree it's been quite the scramble. The way you're saying "Ran lynch isn't happening, don't even talk about it" isn't helping though.

As for PLSD, do you have reasons for him being scum other than activity? He's null to me... wouldn't mind lynching him obviously, but I'd much rather see a scum pick go.

Also, why is Zen on your lynch list?

Honestly I had a gut based scum read on you after that post I keep quoting and thinking of but still don't know the number of (where you say scum read on DG is naive and such) and from there I just couldn't understand your reasoning or your reads, and Vandy/J expressed similar suspicions/concerns and upon reread decided some pressure was necessary. Had your response been bleh we would have been fine with lynching you, but you responded well and have logical reasons behind your actions and that gave us a much better vibe.

Then why does he have a scum list longer than mine?

Sorry to bring up the elephant in the room but gosh this case sucks.

Is this in reference to the list of people he would lynch?

 

[Reyth]

Right and the supposition being that he has reasons for those reads. I await his reasoning tomorrow.

 

[July]

Right and the supposition being that he has reasons for those reads. I await his reasoning tomorrow.

That list is like 9 people long O_O if those are all scum reads and half of those aren't just people he's willing to lynch in order to end the Day/get a flip, I deff think there's a problem...there's no way you can have 9 scum reads in a game of only 13 players. And more scum reads doesn't always mean town, it can also mean scum keeping their option open.

 

[Reyth]

I think we should let him sort all that out.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Let's get something straight, first of all. Objectively, you disagree with my idea that we're going back and forth and pissing people off with walls, isn't that correct? Do you think that anyone aside from us is reading this tripe? Or do you really think in all your cocksure posturing that I don't have a response to you?

Spoiler

Right, so you had exactly ONE strong scum read through 2000+ posts. And that one scum read happened to be an extremely safe wagon that a lot of people had pushed. I'm not buying it.

You made a scumslip, Nich. In my opinion, mind you. But when someone makes a scumslip, the appropriate action is to lynch them until you can't lynch no mo'. It's true that I haven't pushed anyone besides you, but it is absolutely not true that I have only you as a scum read. **** off.

Tell me then, what is the point of the question? I thought you were trying to figure out if video's read list was why I thought he was town. So WHAT'S THE POINT HERE?

I'm making the point that you're asking me for a full reads list and suggesting again and again that a townie should make one.

Hmph. More strawmanning. Here's my position once and for all.

"Nabe has no desire to hunt scum. The only time he posts reads is when he's asked for them, and even then there's no reasoning or push to lynch his scum reads. The only exception to this was his push on me, which was made necessary by activity reasons, and was indeed a very safe push."

STRAWMANSTRAWMANSTRAWMAN oh god kill me now
Why so ****ing negative? FYPOV I could just as easily be wrong. However, I still insist I'm not. All I have heard from you for quite a while now is you asking me for a full reads list and yes, I will quote every ****ing single instance of it, but that is what I think. When I say "oh my god you suck" it's because oh my god, you ****ing suck.

Might be beside the point of me VS you, but I'd just love to hear your reasoning of why they supposedly aren't legitimate and scummy. I've asked that question before, but you've dodged it.

When? When did you ask? When did I dodge?
Responding to this tomorrow since it requires actual thought and commitment to an idea rather than just vomiting up my blind hatred.

Someone needs to learn the English language. List =/= Full list.

You haven't addressed my point, that being that full list was clearly meant by me since I used the phrase when forming my post. This is separate from the issue of whether or not you've been pushing for a full reads list all game; I said "full reads list" and you said "reads list" and expected me to understand that you meant a partial? Someone needs to learn the English language -- in it we sometimes leave out words when both parties understand the meaning.

Spoiler

look at me I'm a pompous *******

Let me give you an example of a list of reads.

Nabe is scum.
PLSD is probably scum.
video is town.

That is a list of reads. Let me give you an example of a list of reads WITH REASONING.

Nabe is scum because of (see above and my previous walls on this guy)
PLSD is probably scum because he hasn't contributed much at all, and what he has contributed hasn't been much.
video is town because his latest post of reads seemed legitimate, and I see no scum motivation for the way he pushed Degrey.

Thanks, I needed the refresher.
In my opinion I've covered all my reads, and I've committed to a catch-up post on those reads, so aside from you taking yet another opportunity to talk down to me, this is a non-issue.

This is a lie, I've proven it, and I can dig up the quotes if need be. Want to press your luck?

Yes. Save me the trouble, by all means.

This is such reaching it's almost lol-worthy. Let me quote you something.

It's completely obvious that I'm calling you scummy for straw manning my argument, not disliking full reads lists.

Do you not understand statement analysis? It's pretty common and easy to grasp -- I read your statement and demonstrated the underlying motives. I didn't claim that you called me outright scummy for disliking full reads lists; that would have been pretty poor of you. What I did claim is that your defense of disliking reads lists as any sort of scum tell is an indicator that you hold it as one, and that as a result I believe my argument substantiated -- that you were looking for a full reads list all along.

Ah, not in this issue. The issue is that you haven't been actually scum hunting (aka: Giving reads with reasoning and trying to get them lynched.) I've asked for any instances of you pushing a scum-read for a lynch aside from me. All you have to do is quote a few instances of yourself doing that. That's all. Instead you tell me to look through the thread. Well, I've ISO'd you, and no such thing exists. So YOU have the burden of proof here.

No, this is a separate issue. In 2307, I say that my reasoning for my reads is scattered throughout the thread. I don't say anything about extra hidden instances of me pushing other lynches. In 2314, you say "he's asking me to look through the thread for something he hasn't given". I respond in 2352 by asking you to clarify what I haven't given. In 2354 (the post I'm responding to now) you say the above quote, suggesting that I've asked you to look through the thread for instances of me pushing other lynches. But it's plain from 2307 that I was referring to my reads being scattered throughout the thread (since I used those exact words); I did not ever say that I've pushed other lynches, and in fact I've acknowledged to you every time you repeat the point that no, I have never pushed other lynches.

So in summary, I did not ask you to look for me pushing other lynches. Considering how often I've acknowledged that I haven't, it's clear that you must be strawmanning me, suggesting that I'm asking you to find something that we both agree doesn't exist.

Or maybe you just can't read Calling strawman is quite fun though, I can understand the rush it must give you. Strokes the man-ego.

The problem with all this is that the only way to prove you HAVEN'T given reasoning for something is to look through every single one of your posts for said reasoning. I can point out said reads (although I'm really not looking forward to digging through the thread AGAIN), but I couldn't prove it without doing a PBPA on you, which nobody would read. And since you steadfastly refuse to give quotes of yourself pushing your scum reads to a lynch (aside from me, which I've dealt with), it'd basically come down to my word against yours.

Again, the point re: quoting myself on other lynches is absolutely ********, since we've both agreed again and again that I haven't pushed other lynches. Maybe I should quote myself saying that, just for reference.

There we go. Anyway, continuing with the above you talk about another proof problem. But what you say above is incorrect (seems to be a pattern fyi). I'm not asking you to do a PBPA to point out reads you don't think are fleshed out -- you already did one, remember? Having read this thread three(?) times now, I would expect you to already have some faint idea of which specific reads you don't think are fleshed out, since you're accusing me of not fleshing out my reads.

There is nothing on my shoulders here -- as quoted above, I have not pushed lynches other than yours, and I'm not asking you to look for instances of me doing so. What's on your shoulders is the substantiation of a claim that you're making that my reads aren't fleshed out with reasoning, i.e. you have the burden of proof since by accusing me you're saying you have knowledge of the specific events that you're referring to. This is common sense.

Way to straw man there. Look, I'm not talking about that part of the case (that would fall under "Stuff based in post #155 and earlier"). I'm talking about how you're trying to toss suspicion on me for my vote on you. THAT is what I'm talking about here.

I wonder why I'd suspect you for voting me with an OMGUS and then accusing me of OMGUSing. You're right, my accusation just doesn't line up. (Editor's Note: The previous two sentences were in jest.)

I don't see how on earth what you said makes him scummy. (And you dodged the question when I asked it.)

Hopefully my recent VG post in response to you has answered your concerns.

Good****ingnight.

 

[Reyth]

@July: When is the move scheduled to be completed?

 

[T-block]

You have an issue with him claiming a role that everyone has agreed he should NEVER use? Really now? I have no clue why every time you talk about Ran, you always seem to refer to "his role" as if its an important thing to discuss. You should take comfort knowing that if he's town he'll never use his role, and if he's scum he'll only use it before LYLO (by this stage, it's irrelevant because the theoretical OP scum team would of already won!!!).

If you think he's scum, you should be focusing on presenting your case on him. Asking me how I expect you to believe Ran's role is NOT the issue here.

His role could be a scum or town. Could dammit!



If I claimed Town Fairy Princess, does that make me scum? Does that make me town? Neither, you look at my play silly .

I know you're getting at "but you're clearing him because of his role!!!" Each situation is different. Sometimes you have to do what you think is best. Sure, I've lynched a claimed power role in my time, but I did it because it was the best course of action.

Rewind back a few thousand posts. I distinctly remember your scum list was KK/July/Ran. Then July revealed that we were masons. And you said something along the lines of (not a quote):

"I still don't like KK/July, but it'd be silly to lynch the claimed town masons on Day 1"

Now who's being hypocritical?

I'm not constantly bringing it up... I'm just continuing the conversation =\ Besides, I think a player is scummy, and others are saying they don't want to lynch him because his claim, if true, is too powerful to be town. Is it so wrong to start thinking how he can prove his role then?

The case of the masons is completely different. I specifically said that I will not clear the masons just because of the claim, but rather I would like to see more information (from night phases) before pushing a lynch on them. In Ran's case, you seem to be saying "his role is town, no need to prove it", which suggests you're just going to let him ride free from now on.

In any case, this day has gone on entirely too long, and I am no longer enjoying being in this game. My willingness to vote certain people has already been stated, so I'll be around to place my vote, but I'm done with discussion toDay.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

oh my god posts, responding tomorrow

except for 2647 where the answer is obviously that I gave the name of every single player I would be willing to lynch in this game, in order. By no means are they equal options, it's an ordered list of every option I'm considering whatsoever.

good****ingnight2

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

obviously 2649 is directed at Nich but let's get that clear too
night3

 

[July]

@July: When is the move scheduled to be completed?

We just finished it today.

oh my god posts, responding tomorrow

except for 2647 where the answer is obviously that I gave the name of every single player I would be willing to lynch in this game, in order. By no means are they equal options, it's an ordered list of every option I'm considering whatsoever.

good****ingnight2

Yes, I was just clarifying what Reyth meant, I assumed your lynch list =/= scum list.

 

[ranmaru]

@July: When is the move scheduled to be completed?

It's done. The one that was on today.

So i'm reading stuffs...

 

[ranmaru]

Btw July. I think you should try to trust yourself with your reads a bit more. It's a good move to agree with a person confirmed to you, but you should also try to originate to your own reasons. : P

Although I agree on Nabe going, and I'm fine with him going.

 

[ranmaru]

whurrrrrrrrrrrr....

Nabe talk to me about SK. I'm interested.

 

[Reyth]

So how long was the move?

 

[ranmaru]

it was all dai. then we had pan cakez. then i parted.

 

[Reyth]

Wow you built cabinets and helped them move all in one day, you must be bushed!

 

[Reyth]

Are you a carpenter?

 

[ranmaru]

I'm not. ;P I hated those stairs tho.

Reyth, please re-direct to good discussion. Or get to the point.

 

[Reyth]

Well you've been gone a long time and since the move only took one day I was just wondering you know? I was worried about you.

 

[Reyth]

Oh they were the pre-fab furniture pieces right?

 

[#HBC | J]

Seriously, stop this off-topic discussion. Get aim or take it to VMs. This isn't helping with the monstrous size of the game nor is it relevant to the game.

 

[Reyth]

Pardon me? Please let Ran asnwer the questions.

 

[Xivii]

Return to the past now...

Says Geremy from Code Lyoko.

 

[Reyth]

Well you've been gone a long time and since the move only took one day I was just wondering you know? I was worried about you.

Oh they were the pre-fab furniture pieces right?

I want Ran to respond to these.

 

[ranmaru]

Reyth, J is right. And I don't know wtf pre-fab is. Just know that I'm proud of it. : D It was all assembly required son. YEA. SO CALL ME KARL DA KARPENTER.

J, Reyth was just taking really long to get to his point. We will desist off topic discussion.

I just got stressed. Plus, claims are ****ing up mah reads. That O ITZ D1 AGAIN thing is just making us drag on and going on without info... bah... gurgle gurlge...

Currently I would vote nabe, but I want him to speak further about SK. I dislike their play.

 

[Reyth]

You were gone for more than one day right? Why were you gone for so long?

 

[ranmaru]

I explained that.

I was only helping with moving TODAY. that's it.

 

[Reyth]

Then why did July say this in your defense?

Originally Posted by Reyth
I think it is strange how Ran's activity has dropped. That actually began as soon as suspicion started being thrown his way.

@July: You have a 100% town read on Ran -- what do you think about his strange lack of activity?

Ran has been helping me move my friend into her apartment in the city, so he's been as inactive as I have been for the same reasons (except he's actually be doing stuff like building dressers while I've been decorating )

 

[Xivii]

Vote: Ranmaru

 

[ranmaru]

That's what we did today silly.

 

[Reyth]

So that esplains why you've been gone for days??

 

[Reyth]

That defense doesn't fit. It is ott.

 

[ranmaru]

Nope .

 

[ranmaru]

That explains what we did today.

 

[Reyth]

And so why did she offeer that as a defense for your DAYS of almost no activity??

 

[ranmaru]

I don't know. You ask her.