Social "Time to Tip the Scales!" - Robin Social Thread

[Deleted member]

Now I don't feel as bad about dropping Kirby anymore after maining him for 6 years for full attention on Jigglypuff

Even though they're both bleh lol


Jigglypuff's way cuter tho <3

View attachment 85965


But for life

tfw we realize Jigglypuff has been good in only one Smash game.

And now, in response to this post, random thought fuel.


Kirby doesn't need good approach options. He's immune to projectiles, silly.

Do not, and I mean DO NOT, underestimate the Hammer Flip. I'm serious.

Meta Knight kinda sucks in the neutral, too, but look at where he is.

Wait... there's such a thing as characters that go even with SHEIK?!


In the hands of a pro, Kirby has enough tools to make up for his misgivings, at least in my opinion. I think you should look into it more.

Not really. Not even people like MikeKirby or Triple R have gotten very far with him even when they're the best Kirby players right now. The latter got bodied by Abadango's Meta Knight at Big House 5, lmao

 

[Koiba]

tfw we realize Jigglypuff has been good in only one Smash game.

At least she wasn't trash in 64 :,D


Cri

smh Sakurai why

 

[Rashyboy05]

And now, in response to this post, random thought fuel.


Kirby doesn't need good approach options. He's immune to projectiles, silly.

Do not, and I mean DO NOT, underestimate the Hammer Flip. I'm serious.

Meta Knight kinda sucks in the neutral, too, but look at where he is.

Wait... there's such a thing as characters that go even with SHEIK?!


In the hands of a pro, Kirby has enough tools to make up for his misgivings, at least in my opinion. I think you should look into it more.

Sure Kirby is great at the hand of a pro but the same can be said about every other character ever.

Meta Knight may suck in the neutral but he has great reward of a grab or dash attack. Kirby has none of that luxury.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Someone got to see Spidey's costume on set of Civil War...I want to see it now even more than before.

 

[Deleted member]

At least she wasn't trash in 64 :,D


Cri

smh Sakurai why

64 Jiggs was a'ight. But Melee was the only one where she was exceptionally good.

Sakurai seems to have a weird track record with Pokemon. has been high tier in every Smash game, low tier in both Brawl and Smash 4, was awesome, was garbage, was hot garbage served on a bronze platter with rust, will quite literally never be good, has been bottom tier ever since Brawl. is currently A-OK, was great in Brawl while being mediocre in Smash 4 besides Aura.

 

[IAmMetaKnight]

Not really. Not even people like MikeKirby or Triple R have gotten very far with him even when they're the best Kirby players right now. The latter got bodied by Abadango's Meta Knight at Big House 5, lmao

Their Kirby's were pretty good, but I think Kirby could be pushed a little farther in the meta. I don't think they recognize everything Kirby has up his sleeve.

Sure Kirby is great at the hand of a pro but the same can be said about every other character ever.

Meta Knight may suck in the neutral but he has great reward of a grab or dash attack. Kirby has none of that luxury.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Every character, with time and effort, can go considerably far in tourneys. The reason I think Kirby is underrated is because I think no one has invested enough time for him to go as far as he can go yet.

I think that if every character was pushed to their full potential, Kirby would be higher than many on the tier list. He certainly wouldn't be top tier, or even B tier mind you, but I still think he's underrated.

 

[Célja]

I do and I'm ranked on my pr #2 atm but bumping down to 3 soon. I also help make my pr in my regional.


Brah don't be scared and go. Regarding of an area of having lesser skilled players than yourself you can still learn from said people. Also your folks region has a decent samus player named Hman, Shugo a old brawl falco/sonic head whose really good but don't play the game much from what I hear. Also it will be a good learning experience like I said especially if your a online warrior and only used to online. At least you cats are nearby Michigan and what not I'm in Nebraska and the closest high lvl comp near me is MJG in Kansas and other old brawl heads in Kansas and Chicago which is 7 hours away.

EDIT: Oh I also forgot about Katakiri a decent MK player as well.

Hman is pretty good from what I've seen, really makes work with the character though I've only played the guy once and it was in doubles. Shugo "hates Smash 4" from what it sounds like but seems to play just enough to make the PR. Yeah, Katakiri's Meta Knight was pretty scary even before the Dash Attack -> Up air to death was known. He's been showing Cbus some Donkey Kong stuff along with some Charizard, but won't really use them outside of doubles/friendlies/if he thinks you're bad. I found out he was pretty good at Brawl back in the day.

 

[The Merc]

Okay, this is my equivalent of a tier list. Rather than dividing every character into an individual spot (which I don't think is very helpful with the game still young and developing), I'm going to divide characters up based on how relevant I believe they are to the current metagame. This is not a true tier list in the traditional sense, it's more so a depiction of who's considered a distinct threat in the meta and who's most likely to win relevant high-level events, relative to others. Characters are not ordered within tiers.

A - Greatest tournament threats, the most relevant in the current meta and the most likely to win relevant high-level events

B - Respectable threats, either very relevant in the current meta or very likely to become relevant in the immediate future

C - Not currently very relevant, but displays good potential and has room to grow in future

D - Not currently relevant, has non-trivial flaws and not very likely to win a relevant event

A



B



C



D

​

Yo guys, I made a tier list.

Some notes:

• Was really unsure where to place . I really feel like he's a great character and that people overvalued his dthrow nerf. He's still a combo monster and has amazing frame data and KO power.
• Miis on this list are 1111, default size.
• Yes, , & are that good.
• Was split on whether to place or above one another, I guess they're tied.
• "Felix, why are , and out of bottom tier?" They have better results than all the other bottom tiers, Sol and Alphicans have done very well with Mac, ESAM, Depth and Johnny Westside with Samus, and Prince Ramen & IceNinja with Pally.
• Yes, , , , and are that bad.
• Peeps would probably want higher, but he doesn't really have all the results to be and how good he is is mostly based on theorycraft at this point considering his huge lack of tournament representation.

Why are Little Mac and Lucina so low on these lists?

Ylisse, as in, the halidom from which Chrom resides and rules over.
Feliz Navidad is "Merry Christmas" in Spanish.
Ylisse and Feliz rhyme for the most part.
Puns

Oh, I see. I mean, I knew the Ylisse part, but I still didn't get the joke.

 

[Koiba]

I'm actually wondering why is considered meh

Is it because he's meh in everything?

 

[Deleted member]

Their Kirby's were pretty good, but I think Kirby could be pushed a little farther in the meta. I don't think they recognize everything Kirby has up his sleeve.



I wouldn't go so far as to say that. Every character, with time and effort, can go considerably far in tourneys. The reason I think Kirby is underrated is because I think no one has invested enough time for him to go as far as he can go yet.

I think that if every character was pushed to their full potential, Kirby would be higher than many on the tier list. He certainly wouldn't be top tier, or even B tier mind you, but I still think he's underrated.

True. If t1mmy (the most technical Kirby player in the world, who plays him in every Smash) dedicated time to playing Smash 4 more, he could do great stuff with him. He pretty much singehandedly developed the entire Kirby meta in Brawl along with ChuDat later on.

Why are Little Mac and Lucina so low on these lists?

Little Mac isn't that low, I put him at the best of the low tier characters. He's not a bad character by any means but he needs way more before he's considered consistently viable at a high level. Even though Alphcians' performance at Northwest Majors Dropzone was a hell of a knockout (and nothing needs to be said about how much of a monster Sol is), our little boxer needs more.

I'm actually wondering why is considered meh

Is it because he's meh in everything?

Poor frame data, laggy smashes, predictable and easily gimped recovery, is combo food and his grabs/throws are pretty bad.

 

[IAmMetaKnight]

Why is Lucina so low?

Lucina = Marth - everything that makes Marth good

She has a few things that make her better in certain situations, notably her speed, but other than that, she's basically inferior Marth.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Hman is pretty good from what I've seen, really makes work with the character though I've only played the guy once and it was in doubles. Shugo "hates Smash 4" from what it sounds like but seems to play just enough to make the PR. Yeah, Katakiri's Meta Knight was pretty scary even before the Dash Attack -> Up air to death was known. He's been showing Cbus some Donkey Kong stuff along with some Charizard, but won't really use them outside of doubles/friendlies/if he thinks you're bad. I found out he was pretty good at Brawl back in the day.

Hmm nice to know and every scene has fiends, nerds and what not so it's whatever as long as people are leveling up and rep your scene for when the big stuff matters that's all there is to it.

Also interesting that shugo hates smash 4 any particular reason why he said?

 

[Deleted member]

Lucina = Marth - everything that makes Marth good

She has a few things that make her better in certain situations, notably her speed, but other than that, she's basically inferior Marth.

Pretty much. Only other thing Lucina has is that her fsmash is dumb as hell if she hits it with somebody near the ledge. That **** shouldn't kill so early.

 

[~Skelly~]

Why are Little Mac and Lucina so low on these lists?

Little Mac isn't THAT bad given his incredible ground game, but having the worst air game and virtually no recoveries outside of his predictable side-b hinders him greatly.

Lucina is considered meh in the metagame because Marth is better than her in most aspects (the tipper mechanic for one thing), and Marth is considered above average in the metagame.

Lucina = Marth - everything that makes Marth good

She has a few things that make her better in certain situations, notably her speed, but other than that, she's basically inferior Marth.

Basically this, The Merc .

 

[Célja]

Hmm nice to know and every scene has fiends, nerds and what not so it's whatever as long as people are leveling up and rep your scene for when the big stuff matters that's all there is to it.

Also interesting that shugo hates smash 4 any particular reason why he said?

I don't think he ever gave a reason for it, my guess is that he just doesn't like how smash 4 plays compared to the others.

 

[The Merc]

Little Mac isn't that low, I put him at the best of the low tier characters. He's not a bad character by any means but he needs way more before he's considered consistently viable at a high level. Even though Alphcians' performance at Northwest Majors Dropzone was a hell of a knockout (and nothing needs to be said about how much of a monster Sol is), our little boxer needs more.

I still think Mac is a great character. Though I guess he could do with a buff or two.

Lucina = Marth - everything that makes Marth good

She has a few things that make her better in certain situations, notably her speed, but other than that, she's basically inferior Marth.

But, Lucina is basically Marth without Tipper. How does that make her so much worse?

 

[Nah]

Pikachu's been varying degrees of good in every Smash game because his is a design that works well with Smash's game design. It's mainly that he's mobile and has good combo capability. And Quick Attack. That moves kinda nuts. Having a projectile and above average frame data helps too.

And now, in response to this post, random thought fuel.


Kirby doesn't need good approach options. He's immune to projectiles, silly.

Do not, and I mean DO NOT, underestimate the Hammer Flip. I'm serious.

Meta Knight kinda sucks in the neutral, too, but look at where he is.

Wait... there's such a thing as characters that go even with SHEIK?!


In the hands of a pro, Kirby has enough tools to make up for his misgivings, at least in my opinion. I think you should look into it more.

son Hammer is why you lost to me when you went Kirby

I don't Meta Knight's neutral sucks so much as it is.....kinda shallow.

And yeah, some characters do go even with Sheik. Just not Kirby. She's hella good, but not Melee Fox or Brawl Meta Knight

 

[ARGHETH]

Lucina = Marth - everything that makes Marth good

Wat. Lucina is literally tipperless Marth (well, a few pixels shorter, but still). No more, no less. Most Marth mains that I've seen on these boards put her as a few spots lower, while this has her as two tiers lower, which I'm really wondering about.

She has a few things that make her better in certain situations, notably her speed, but other than that, she's basically inferior Marth.

Speed? I'm could swear they have the same run/walk/air speed...

 

[~Skelly~]

Speed? I'm could swear they have the same run/walk/air speed...

They do have the same speed in that regard. However, attack wise, some of Lucina's attacks are actually quicker than Marth's (I believe her b-air was one).

 

[AmericanDJ]

Speed? I'm could swear they have the same run/walk/air speed...

I do know that she does a little better against Pikachu but I don't know the exact reason.

 

[Rashyboy05]

But, Lucina is basically Marth without Tipper. How does that make her so much worse?

But, Lucina is basically Marth without Tipper.

Lucina is basically Marth without Tipper.

Lucina is Marth without Tipper.

You just answered your own question
I do think they're exaggerating her weaknesses though. Lucina isn't that much worse than Marth. Its just that Marth's tipper allows ridiculously early kills and tipper aerials are great for killing off-stage.
I do think Lucina fares well against shorter and floaty character though, since they can easily escape Marth's combo strings.

 

[Deleted member]

I do know that she does a little better against Pikachu but I don't know the exact reason.

Her MU against is also better than Marth's since she's able to play more aggressively and not worry about spacing/tippers for kills.

 

[Deleted member]

Célja

I'll try to see if I can't make time to at least drop by the venue next semester, college of course comes first though. :[

 

[Milo AKA Papa]

The only thing Lucina REALLY has going for her compared to Marth are some matchups that are slightly more in her favor because of the lack of a tipper.
A good example being Fox
granted, Lucina still loses that matchup, but it's still a better matchup compared to Marth's
Besides that, Marth is just the overall better character.

 

[ARGHETH]

They do have the same speed in that regard. However, attack wise, some of Lucina's attacks are actually quicker than Marth's.

I was just looking at Kuro and they have literally the same frame data.

I do know that she does a little better against Pikachu but I don't know the exact reason.

The general theory is that her lack of tipper mechanic means that she doesn't have to space to kill, which is useful against Pikachu who is supposedly good at getting into your space.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, if there's one thing I have to say about Lucina she's not as trashy as . Roy in Melee was a lolcow.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I Need more pictures for Icons

 

[IAmMetaKnight]

Hey, if there's one thing I have to say about Lucina she's not as trashy as . Roy in Melee was a lolcow.

I wouldn't really say she's trashy at all. She's just not as good a character as Marth.

 

[Célja]

Célja

I'll try to see if I can't make time to at least drop by the venue next semester, college of course comes first though. :[

That's understandable. Worst comes to worst you could stop by on the off time when ever the semester is over.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't really say she's trashy at all. She's just not as good a character as Marth.

I didn't say she was trashy, I just said she was nowhere near as much of a downgrade of a clone as Roy was in Melee.

 

[The Merc]

Little Mac isn't THAT bad given his incredible ground game, but having the worst air game and virtually no recoveries outside of his predictable side-b hinders him greatly.

Lucina is considered meh in the metagame because Marth is better than her in most aspects (the tipper mechanic for one thing), and Marth is considered above average in the metagame.

What are you talking about worst air game? Don't you people know he's an air fighter!

Still don't understand how that 1 thing makes Marth basically a million times better than Lucina.

You just answered your own question
I do think they're exaggerating her weaknesses though. Lucina isn't that much worse than Marth. Its just that Marth's tipper allows ridiculously early kills and tipper aerials are great for killing off-stage.
I do think Lucina fares well against shorter and floaty character though, since they can easily escape Marth's combo strings.

Eh, I guess I'm just bias cause I like (and know) Lucina much more than Marth. Though i have a question. If they made Lucina more combo orientated (i.e. she could pull of stuff like Melee Marth's Ken combo) and gave math more Kill power to some of His Tip moves, do you think that would buff them both dramatically?

 

[Wintropy]

This gal gets it. I've pretty much dropped Kirby for serious play in this game. 64, Brawl and PM Kirbs for life.

One thing that pisses me off is how they changed Hammer, a damn fine KO move in Brawl that gave awesome reward off reads, into a move like Hammer Bash for a character that already has a ton of trouble approaching anyways. That move is practicially useless in 1v1 as nobody's gonna fall for a fully charged Hammer Bash, and the uncharged hammer is laughably weak.

Hey, Melee Hammer's a custom at least. That's worth something, right? ;3

And now, in response to this post, random thought fuel.


Kirby doesn't need good approach options. He's immune to projectiles, silly.

Do not, and I mean DO NOT, underestimate the Hammer Flip. I'm serious.

Meta Knight kinda sucks in the neutral, too, but look at where he is.

Wait... there's such a thing as characters that go even with SHEIK?!


In the hands of a pro, Kirby has enough tools to make up for his misgivings, at least in my opinion. I think you should look into it more.

Not really. Good players have done work with him and haven't gotten very far. There's really not much to it, he just doesn't have the tools to compete in the current meta. MK may have a weak neutral game, but he has probably the second-best advantage in the game after ZSS to make up for it. Kirby has nothing to threaten others with, even Hammer Flip is an incredibly unsafe move that's bait punish and requires a hard read to get anything done with. He's not a good character in 1v1.

Why are Little Mac and Lucina so low on these lists?

Mac dies about half as quickly as everybody else, is the short answer. I can copy-paste the proper response I wrote up recently if you want.

I will explain Lucina below.

Wat. Lucina is literally tipperless Marth (well, a few pixels shorter, but still). No more, no less. Most Marth mains that I've seen on these boards put her as a few spots lower, while this has her as two tiers lower, which I'm really wondering about.

If you're referring to the list I posted, it's not a tier list. The only reason I have her in the tier below Marth is because it's based on relevance in the meta, and Lucina is...just not relevant. Marth is barely making waves to begin with, and Lucina is just outclassed in every way in the competitive scene; she's just a poor man's Marth if you want to win big at tourneys.

In an actual tier list, yeah, I'd put her a few spots below Marth at most. I don't think she's a bad character, there's just no justifiable reason why you'd choose her over Marth if you just want to win.

 

[ARGHETH]

If you're referring to the list I posted, it's not a tier list. The only reason I have her in the tier below Marth is because it's based on relevance in the meta, and Lucina is...just not relevant. Marth is barely making waves to begin with, and Lucina is just outclassed in every way in the competitive scene; she's just a poor man's Marth if you want to win big at tourneys.

Nah, I'm referring to the picture one. In relevance terms, Lucina is, like, bottom tier lol. (Well, except for maybe vs Pikachu or whatever).

 

[Wintropy]

Nah, I'm referring to the picture one. In relevance terms, Lucina is, like, bottom tier lol

Oh, then carry on~ ;3

 

[IAmMetaKnight]

What are you talking about worst air game? Don't you people know he's an air fighter!

Still don't understand how that 1 thing makes Marth basically a million times better than Lucina.

The first time I fought a Little Mac who knew how to use his aerials, needless to say, I got bodied. After the match, I sat there slack-jawed for like ten minutes wondering what the **** just happened.

 

[~Skelly~]

The first time I fought a Little Mac who knew how to use his aerials, needless to say, I got bodied. After the match, I sat there slack-jawed for like ten minutes wondering what the **** just happened.

Little Mac is a monster in right hands (StylesX2 makes him very entertaining to watch). I've never played against someone who used him proper though, so...

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, Melee Hammer's a custom at least. That's worth something, right? ;3



Not really. Good players have done work with him and haven't gotten very far. There's really not much to it, he just doesn't have the tools to compete in the current meta. MK may have a weak neutral game, but he has probably the second-best advantage in the game after ZSS to make up for it. Kirby has nothing to threaten others with, even Hammer Flip is an incredibly unsafe move that's bait punish and requires a hard read to get anything done with. He's not a good character in 1v1.

It was Brawl's Hammer, not Melee's Hammer. Melee's Hammer was garbage since it had a giant sourspot at the handle and had absurd startup and ending lag.

And once again, I completely agree with you. He's just not viable in the singles meta. He has no burst options, no approach, and can struggle getting kills most of the time. He doesn't get much reward off having such poor ground and air mobility combined with being so light.

 

[Izayoi]

We have a winner!

As for you, Izayoi ...

I WAS AWAY FROM SMASHBOARDS CAUSE MY LIFE OKAY

 

[Wintropy]

It was Brawl's Hammer, not Melee's Hammer. Melee's Hammer was garbage since it had a giant sourspot at the handle and had absurd startup and ending lag.

Right, sorry. Truth be told, I haven't played Kirby seriously since 2002. ;3

And once again, I completely agree with you. He's just not viable in the singles meta. He has no burst options, no approach, and can struggle getting kills most of the time. He doesn't get much reward off having such poor ground and air mobility combined with being so light.

It's kinda funny.

We have two low-tier characters:

And then an undisputed top-tier:

It's and all over again~

 

[ARGHETH]

The first time I fought a Little Mac who knew how to use his aerials, needless to say, I got bodied. After the match, I sat there slack-jawed for like ten minutes wondering what the **** just happened.

The funny thing is, Little Mac has the fastest aerial in the game. (F2 Nair).