Tilts or Smashes - What to do?

[Radarr]

Howdy.
I'm not really new around here, I just lurk a lot. I figured I'd try to contribute something.
Many times when people are suggesting which of Zelda's many kill moves to uses, people say her smashes. I, personally, however, prefer to you her smashes for damage racking. Usually people don't suggest that, for some reason. Maybe because they think smashes kill easier.

Well, I decided to check this out. So I went into training mode to see what killed when. All of these percentages are based off of Final Destination (from the center) on Mario with no DI. Smashes were done with C-stick, so no charge. F-tilt was straight, not tilted up or down.

U-smash
Kills: 105%
Damage: 15%

U-tilt
Kills: 104%
Damage: 11%

For the case of U-smash vs U-tilt, I think it can be said that U-smash is better for damage racking. Just barely, but it is. This is only if the opponent is in front of you, however, since U-smash hits all around at the same time, but U-tilt hits the front then the back. U-smash ends up being better for damage racking, since it deals more and kills at a higher percentage. So, I think U-tilt should be saved and not decayed until ready to kill, not U-smash.

F-smash
Kills: 122%
Damage: 17%

F-tilt
Kills (off side, point-blank range): 145%
Kills (off top, farther away): 125%
Damage: 12%

This one can go either way. The 145% kill percent is practically irrelevant, as you have to be touching the opponent for F-tilt to send them away horizontally. I believe that F-smash, once again, is better for damage racking as it does more damage. The additional damage done by a single F-smash more then makes up for the difference in kill percentages.

So, I believe that it is actually more effective to use smashes for damage racking, and tilts for the kill. The difference really is minor, though, and comes down to personal preference.

And so ends my first real contribution to smashboards.

 

[-Mars-]

Nice job and way to contribute, I hope you decide to chime in a lot more. However, I think it's pretty much common knowledge for smashes to be used more for damage racking. You forgot to mention usmash comes out a lot faster than utilt so it's generally more practical for damage racking anyways. I think I speak for everyone when I say our utlits are almost always fresh. Ftilt and fsmash both aren't really used for kills, they're just primarily spacing tools that are used quite a bit.

 

[Radarr]

Hm, really?
I must be reading the wrong posts then. My bad.

I knew that F smash and tilt weren't really used for killing, but this seemed too empty with just the U tilt/smash. So I did more. I almost threw in D-smash kill percentages, but I figured that would be overdoing it.

 

[Kataefi]

No please do throw in DSmash percents! Also... is there anyway of finding out how badly Zelda's smashes stale?

Thanks for the contribution! I hope you return with plenty more!

 

[GodAtHand]

No please do throw in DSmash percents! Also... is there anyway of finding out how badly Zelda's smashes stale?

If you did that it would be awesome!

You should def start posting more especially since you are in MA. Why don't you go to tournaments? I go to tournaments in MA quite a bit and I am the one and only Zelda rep...

 

[Bandit]

Damage Rackers:
U-Smash
F-Smash
D-Tilt
N-Air
F-Air & B-Air (keep one fresh for the kill)

Kill Moves:
U-Tilt
D-Smash
F-Tilt (High Percents and fresh)
All Aerials but N-Air

Combo Moves:
F-Tilt to U-Smash (low percents)
D-Throw to N-Air/B-Air
D-Tilt to D-Tilt to D-Tilt ... to F-Smash
D-Tilt (Fresh) to U-Tilt

Other than D-Throw, D-Tilt seems to be a better option than any grab. If they are that close to you, D-Tilt Trip Trap until they start DI'ing out and forward smash. It will lead to a lot more damage than if you do any grab and throw. If you haven't weakened D-Tilt and they are at higher percentages, then the opponent will pop up and allow you to U-Tilt for a possible kill.

This may be known, but it is knowledge you should be armed with. D-Smash seems to be an under appreciated kill move but it is one of her quickest moves making landing it fairly easy instead of situational.

 

[Villi]

Dsmash is a great kill move near the edges, better than fsmash in practice because of the quick execution and difficult trajectory. If its kept fresh and placed well, it can kill at lower percents than up smash. If they're trying to get out of your dtilt fogettahbout correct DI.

 

[Radarr]

I suppose I could try to figure out how they stale. I'll get on that either later tonight or tomorrow.

I don't go to tournaments for a couple reasons... one, I have no way to get around, I have to be the only 17 year old without even a permit. Two, I have no clue where they are. I see practically none on the tournament board here. I could just be bad at looking though.

 

[Villi]

The game registers about 10 attacks in a little line up. Moves that appear later in the line up have slightly less of a decay effect. I think Dtilt is a move you can afford to have stale. The staler your dtilts (nairs, din's, jabs, naryu's etc), the fresher your kill moves. Upsmash is a much more reliable killer at higher percents than up tilt, despite killing at a slightly later time, so if you decide to rack up damage some other way that allows your up smash to refresh, you don't really need a dtilt to up tilt set up. Staling your dtilts tends to remove your option of dtilt -> uptilt, but opens up other options at kill percents like up smash or dtilt lock to dsmash. People trying to escape a dtilt lock are put in a pretty sticky DI situation because, at any time, you can catch them in bad DI with a dsmash which will kill them very early near the edge or sets them up for a difficult recovery open for edge guarding. Every roll toward the edge is as good as adding another 15% to their hit counter as far as dsmash is concerned. Back throw is a good kill move to know near the edges since it loses its effect the farther you are from the ledge, especially with good DI. Down throw with your back to the ledge punishes good DI (sets them up for up airs and air dodge traps with nair) and fthrows at lower percents get them out of the habit of DIing back toward the stage because you just send them off in the wrong direction. Your options change depending on where you are and what decisions you've made prior, obviously, so it's better to know what impact your decisions make before you do them.

I stale the crap out of my lightning kicks sometimes. LMAO. Nothing like putting the fear of a lightning kick in someone's heart to start the match with a couple of sweet spots.

 

[Bandit]

I have the LK staling with bowser or any other really big character. It is just too tempting to kick them in the face, so I have just accepted that I probably have to kill with something else in those matchups.

Zelda has like 9 kill moves (dash attack can kill even), so there should always be an option.

 

[Kaffei]

I agree.

The tilts probably are better for KOing, but they truly are far more difficult to land a hit.

T.T

 

[Deleted member]

i agree with red bandit's post

also don't forget that you can easily DI out of hte fsmash meaning you usually won't be able to kill with it

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

<3 up-smash juggle into up-tilt finisher

 

[Kaffei]

i agree with red bandit's post

also don't forget that you can easily DI out of hte fsmash meaning you usually won't be able to kill with it

DIing out of Zelda's Fsmash is easier said than done.
It's improved from Melee's crappy fsmash.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

I don't go to tournaments for a couple reasons... one, I have no way to get around, I have to be the only 17 year old without even a permit. Two, I have no clue where they are. I see practically none on the tournament board here. I could just be bad at looking though.

Were in the same boat up the river without a paddle

 

[Deleted member]

DIing out of Zelda's Fsmash is easier said than done.
It's improved from Melee's crappy fsmash.

all you have to do is tap up on the control stick like maybe twice.....

 

[-Mars-]

all you have to do is tap up on the control stick like maybe twice.....

Ya SDI gets you out pretty easily. The good thing about it being DI'able is that you will not be punished so following up afterwards isn't hard.

 

[Bandit]

I've had the pleasure of playing two old melee pros recently and they DI'ed out of my fsmash and usmash constantly. I actually juggled the one guy with fsmash like 3 or 4 times because he kept DI'ing past me and getting hit again. If people know what they are doing, it can be done routinely. My Usmash was useless as a kill move against them as they got out just before the kill hit. Oh well, they still ate Utilt and dsmashes!

 

[-Mars-]

I've had the pleasure of playing two old melee pros recently and they DI'ed out of my fsmash and usmash constantly. I actually juggled the one guy with fsmash like 3 or 4 times because he kept DI'ing past me and getting hit again. If people know what they are doing, it can be done routinely. My Usmash was useless as a kill move against them as they got out just before the kill hit. Oh well, they still ate Utilt and dsmashes!

Really? The fsmash is easy to DI but he usmash is rather difficult. I played someone who was excellent with the fsmash but he could only DI out of usmash every 2/10 times. Until I see a video of a player consistently SDI'ing Zeldas usmash in the midst of a serious match........i'm never going to give much thought to it.

 

[Hilary]

I pretty much never F.smash or U.smash because I feel entirely compromised being stuck in those animations, regardless of how good the moves actually are. I'll use them If I'm spaced really advantageously and I want to leave a meaty hitbox out for people to land on or run into, but most of the time I just don't like feeling that committed when I could tilt and stay mobile.

her tilts and D.smash are great though, and I find they leave more room to hound people with lightning kicks for lazy/bad DI.

 

[-Mars-]

I pretty much never F.smash or U.smash because I feel entirely compromised being stuck in those animations, regardless of how good the moves actually are. I'll use them If I'm spaced really advantageously and I want to leave a meaty hitbox out for people to land on or run into, but most of the time I just don't like feeling that committed when I could tilt and stay mobile.

her tilts and D.smash are great though, and I find they leave more room to hound people with lightning kicks for lazy/bad DI.

Fsmash is your best spacing move and usmash is simply her best move........what kind of Zelda do you play?

 

[Bandit]

Not a successful one...

10Usmashes

 

[sniperworm]

Really? The fsmash is easy to DI but he usmash is rather difficult. I played someone who was excellent with the fsmash but he could only DI out of usmash every 2/10 times. Until I see a video of a player consistently SDI'ing Zeldas usmash in the midst of a serious match........i'm never going to give much thought to it.

I don't even use Usmash against one of my friends anymore. His Marth has about a 70% success rate at escaping from my Usmash, so I don't even bother trying anymore (since I get tipped in the face by an aerial before I can recover most of the time).

Of course, he's just a casual player so I'd hardly count it as a serious match and there are no vids because we only play for fun. When I asked how he gets out, he proceeded to say that you need to max your speed and luck...

 

[Villi]

I pretty much never F.smash or U.smash because I feel entirely compromised being stuck in those animations, regardless of how good the moves actually are. I'll use them If I'm spaced really advantageously and I want to leave a meaty hitbox out for people to land on or run into, but most of the time I just don't like feeling that committed when I could tilt and stay mobile.

her tilts and D.smash are great though, and I find they leave more room to hound people with lightning kicks for lazy/bad DI.

I tend to agree with you about up smash, but fsmash is pretty difficult to punish unless you're coming from a clean diagonal or vertical. The lag on it isn't bad at all and the hitbox lasts a while. It's a pretty solid move. In most matchups, I've pretty much replaced my up smash with fsmash, up tilt, nair, or up air unless I'm trying to shield stab, punish sidestepping, or need a fast oos attack. Ok so maybe I don't really agree with you that much...

Down smash, though... That's a move I really wanna quit the thoughtless use for both Sheik and Zelda. It's my pressure response, but I'd rather be using down tilts, I think. Except turnaround down smashes are just so... much easier.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

You should def start posting more especially since you are in MA. Why don't you go to tournaments? I go to tournaments in MA quite a bit and I am the one and only Zelda rep...

I know this isn't directed toward me, but I likewise live in western MA, and it tournaments aren't really that common, if at all.

Of course, I would go all the time, if I could find any near home (and preferably on saturday, lol)

Also, points I'd like to capitalize in this thread:
-Fsmash is easy to get out of, if they predict it or have good reaction speed
-Usmash is very hard to get out of, for most characters.
- : ( uptilt just seems like it takes forever to come out.
-Someone needs to throw mad tournies in West MA, or tell me where I can host one without it costing an arm and a leg

 

[Kaffei]

all you have to do is tap up on the control stick like maybe twice.....

LOL, really? Then maybe I just suck at DI. -_-

Gotta work on that.... :|
I heard that usmash is hard to DI though....?

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

LOL, really? Then maybe I just suck at DI. -_-

Gotta work on that.... :|
I heard that usmash is hard to DI though....?

So much so that I can't even tell you the proper DI.

(btw, if you want to test DIing the Fsmash, go into training and set the CPU to 'control' and 999% and then use Zelda's Fsmash. If you double stick DI up, it should be a breeze)