Tier List Speculation

[TheGravyTrain]

Here is my thoughts on Ivy stuff (@ Steel Kangaroo I still will respond to your post argumentatively, but later when I have more time). Ftilt seems to be the perfect move to fit the issue Ivy has against close range cc/asdi stuff. If you can maintain spacing, I hold to dtilt/bair being good enough for dealing with long range cc. I do recognize you can't always maintain that, so having a close range option like ftilt or jabs is good. So, from what I can gather, ftilt is lacking in how easy it is to asdi through. I say put back in the rear hitbox, as well as maybe some sdi multipliers. Someone brought up that it was sdi multipliers on moves that you can change spacing (aerials) that didn't need to be less than x1.0. This is a grounded move of which you have no way to adjust to their spacing, so sdi multipliers shouldn't be too harmful/degenerate. It shouldn't even be comboing, so giving some percent and patching a hole in Ivy's gameplan. The other change I would make is to jabs. Jab 1 is good. Maybe speed up jab 2 by a couple frames so people can't squeeze attacks in between them (shrinking the smallest gap to around 8 frames should be good). I would say go all the way and make the gab 4 or less, but thats an absurd solution. Making it small enough so they can't attack in between should be good. Other changes would also be necessary imo, so maybe making jab 2 safer on shield (since they still can asdi down shield) and potentially buffind kb at low percents (again, it doesn't combo). Those 2 changes, imo, should give Ivy players enough to cope with cc. It doesn't completely eliminate the problem, but they are buffs that help her deal with it without making already good mu's get even better (buffing grab would prolly do that, causing more changes to happen). They aren't perfect, but I think it could work.

Crazy idea I just had. Y'know how Samus/Ivy dash grabs are quicker and shorter range than standing? What if they were swapped? That gives Ivy the option to shield grab (what is it, frame 10?) at least a tiny bit, while still retaining the option of long range grabs that catch retreats (imo, the only advantage the range of tethers provide outside of pivot grabs, but we see those getting nerfed out with the removal of long range air grabs a la Yoshi).

 

[steelguttey]

You mentioned this in a previous post, but I don't see giving Ivy a grab that she can use in response to CC and/or shield pressure as breaking or drastically changing the way she is. It'd just give her the ability to punish poor shield pressure and brainless CC.

In spite of the buff Oli got, he's still not great at dealing with shield pressure and, like Ivy, his main option is nair OoS, and even that has its limitations.

I don't know. I just like characters being able to do what comes off to me as basic things, like grabbing quickly in response to CC.

speaking of which I hate zelda but buff her ****ing grab please and thank you

fair out of shield is still pretty stupid yo

also tether grabs have the added bonus of beating sword shield pressure

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I think Marth could be S, he has a super good mu spread. Samus, sheik, pikachu and snake are also too low imo. And I'd put lucario and wario lower. Also I'd switch diddy and mewtwo.

Snake is definitely not too low. He has absolutely awful matchups against characters like Sheik, Marth, Toon Link and Fox where some of them are so free it's almost laughable. Professor Pro hates the Sheik matchup so much that he switches to Fox if I recall correctly. Counterplay against Snake is simple when you're playing a character who doesn't need to approach. Of course, Snake's punish game is godlike and it can be a process to learn how to edgeguard him, so I can understand why you think that way.

Other than that though, I believe you're absolutely right. Lucario is dang good but doesn't have answers for everything in neutral, Pikachu I can understand why you think he's better so I can get behind it and Samus has a strong matchup spread against characters like Fox, Falco, and Metaknight all of whom are top tier characters. Wolf is a good matchup too, and personally I believe that the Sheik matchup has improved. I also theorize that Samus would be decent against Rob and Lucario too.

Gosh, I feel like I wrote so poorly I just barfed on my keyboard. Super rambly.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ steelguttey
I don't think any tether grabs are quick enough for that. They either are too slow (like Ivy) or they don't reach max range quick enough. I haven't tested, but for sure it wouldn't work on Marth dtilt (and Squirtle bubble, which is what I tested). I'll test it if debug ever wants to cooperate today...

 

[tavarner17]

Here is a tier list I made. They are ordered within tiers.

I think this tier list is pretty off... I'll discuss some of my problems with it.

Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.

I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.

For the record, in this:

Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

 

[_Chrome]

I think this tier list is pretty off... I'll discuss some of my problems with it.

Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.

I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.



Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

This tier list is better than you give credit for, but in my decent knowledge about the game I can tell you right off the bat that Snake and Pit are too high and Squirtle is a little low. Remember, Snake has a horrible neutral game and Pit was severely nerfed. I value the potential of Squirtle when I say he should be higher: in the current meta game he's doing Jack Sh*t. Also, Olimar probably isn't better than Ness nor Charizard. Take what I say with a grain of salt as well considering I'm certainly no pro either. Oh, and Kirby is too high.

 

[steelguttey]

@ steelguttey
I don't think any tether grabs are quick enough for that. They either are too slow (like Ivy) or they don't reach max range quick enough. I haven't tested, but for sure it wouldn't work on Marth dtilt (and Squirtle bubble, which is what I tested). I'll test it if debug ever wants to cooperate today...

dtilt wouldnt work but things like spaced ivy bair or marth fair can be shield grabbed if the do it too early in their jump if you have a tether grab.

 

[Rawkobo]

I think this tier list is pretty off... I'll discuss some of my problems with it.

Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.

I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.



Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

This tier list is better than you give credit for, but in my decent knowledge about the game I can tell you right off the bat that Snake and Pit are too high and Squirtle is a little low. Remember, Snake has a horrible neutral game and Pit was severely nerfed. I value the potential of Squirtle when I say he should be higher: in the current meta game he's doing Jack Sh*t. Also, Olimar probably isn't better than Ness nor Charizard. Take what I say with a grain of salt as well considering I'm certainly no pro either. Oh, and Kirby is too high.

ZSS is way lower than I was expecting as well, but this list really isn't half bad. Is it ordered within tiers, or just generally where you think the characters are?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Can't wait for time to pass and people are done overrating characters on the tier list. First it was broken ike is broken please nerf, then it was diddy having no bad qualities and the best neutral in the game. Now it is g&w being a top 5 character.

Winning paragon was entertaining, but it seems like in order to avoid giving any credit to the player, (and some points of questionable decision making by the opponent), people would rather blow the tourney results out of proportion and discredit any accomplishments by saying x character is o.p. It's a game of matchups, even at the highest lvl of play, no one knows 100% who will win. Some of the greatest moments in smash comes from when an underdog breaks through the bracket. See Salem vs m2k.

In short people are blowing g&w way out of proportion to s tier status and it's silly to base that all on one tournament where the majority of players were not ready.
Amsa got 5th place with yoshi... yoshi a top 8 character better than falcon confirmed.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm really curious why Ivy keeps making it to the bottom of tier lists or in the bottom half. She seems to have one of the best kits for edgeguarding (amazing disjointed bair and great horizontal weave/air mobility), a great wavedash, awesome platform game, great juggle game, a pretty strong combo kit, decent smash attacks, and a good projectile (and comeback mechanic). I understand her recovery is a free edgeguard, but that's true for a lot of characters and its becoming more true as the level of skill keeps increasing. I've heard a lot of her approaches in neutral can be limited once opponents abuse crouch cancel, but is that fact alone so strong that it justifies lumping her with teh bottom 10-12 characters in the game?

I'll admit, outside of the Ness v. Ivysaur matchup, I know very little about Ivysaur. I can't even begin to tell you who she has a hard time with and why.

 

[The_NZA]

Also, I've never liked the argument that Crouch Cancel is inherently a bad mechanic because it rewards you for getting hit. There's another option in this game that rewards you for being hit, and most of you will defend it---and that is shielding. Dash up shield is intentionally asking your opponent to hit you, and then punishing them for committing to an option. You take no damage and you expend a resource (shield) that regenerates automatically. The reason why we like it is it adds another layer of interaction.

Crouch cancelling is us accepting damage and potential knockback in the hopes of having a faster defensive option or for survival. I think the technique would have less hate if it looked like Focusing in STreetfighter or something of the ilk, but if you are making hte claim that its bad PURELY because it rewards you for getting hit, then I think you are not standing on a strong foundation to justify your argument.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'm really curious why Ivy keeps making it to the bottom of tier lists or in the bottom half. She seems to have one of the best kits for edgeguarding (amazing disjointed bair and great horizontal weave/air mobility), a great wavedash, awesome platform game, great juggle game, a pretty strong combo kit, decent smash attacks, and a good projectile (and comeback mechanic). I understand her recovery is a free edgeguard, but that's true for a lot of characters and its becoming more true as the level of skill keeps increasing. I've heard a lot of her approaches in neutral can be limited once opponents abuse crouch cancel, but is that fact alone so strong that it justifies lumping her with teh bottom 10-12 characters in the game?

I'll admit, outside of the Ness v. Ivysaur matchup, I know very little about Ivysaur. I can't even begin to tell you who she has a hard time with and why.

Her MU spread is a start. It's pretty mediocre for the most part.

Edit: Hah, wrong thread @ above me?

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

dtilt wouldnt work but things like spaced ivy bair or marth fair can be shield grabbed if the do it too early in their jump if you have a tether grab.

I'd gladly trade this benefit for all the benefits of a standard grab lol

To respond to @ The_NZA , yeah Ivysaur is good especially against Ness, due to the things you're talking about. Disjoints are great for intercepting an approaching opponent and punishing poor spacing, but that doesn't matter when you're the one forced to approach. Imagine if melee marth had a slow, laggy grab that didn't chain grab fast fallers and couldn't be utilized to shield grab. If Ivysaur has to approach, or if a character can get through her disjoints (fox nair plane does damage), she doesn't do too well. Often against spacie type pressure, she's forced to roll. A lot. Because her shield is bad (shield stabs happen easily), her nair oos isn't that fast, and her grab is even worse.

Razor leaf is a very good projectile at mid-range, especially if the opponent is lacking in MU experience and doesn't know how to deal with it. But at the effective range of most other projectiles, RL is pretty worthless. Samus, Link, and spacies can either force an approach or just a boring stalemate situation, when any appoach from Ivysaur would end in a cc dsmash.

Again, Ivysaurs kit works well against a good portion of the cast, possibly too well. And I think Ness falls into this group too, as pk fire is a similar range as RL and Ness just gets owned by bair by virtue of all the aerial approaches. But characters who can overwhelm Ivysaur or force her to commit with very little commitment of their own (dash dance characters) can really mess ivy up. Lack of a real anti air that isn't bair is part o the problem as well. But the issue is finding a fix that doesn't make her annoying matchups even worse but still let's her compete against fox, falco, Rob etc.

If you're curious, I'll PM you some high level matches where the ivy gets str8 owned by fox and it looks near unwinnable. I just don't think posting them here will be productive because I don't want to call anyone out or have people here nitpick someone's playstyle.

 

[Droß]

Um, Kirby's hammer is one of his best moves, it kills if you get a jab reset or read and it auto cancels so you can space it in neutral and it's good. I don't think any Kirby wants to lose it for the possiblity of a new dash attack that can't be used out of dash lmao.

Today I learned! My knowledge is seriously lacking on every character I haven't played, so it's good to hear that hammer is useful. If you could alter Kirby's recovery to make it less predictable / overall stronger, how would you go about it?

 

[tavarner17]

ZSS is way lower than I was expecting as well, but this list really isn't half bad. Is it ordered within tiers, or just generally where you think the characters are?

Yeah I tried to make it ordered within tiers. Generally I think her lack of a vertical kill option really hurts her.

I'm really curious why Ivy keeps making it to the bottom of tier lists or in the bottom half. She seems to have one of the best kits for edgeguarding (amazing disjointed bair and great horizontal weave/air mobility), a great wavedash, awesome platform game, great juggle game, a pretty strong combo kit, decent smash attacks, and a good projectile (and comeback mechanic). I understand her recovery is a free edgeguard, but that's true for a lot of characters and its becoming more true as the level of skill keeps increasing. I've heard a lot of her approaches in neutral can be limited once opponents abuse crouch cancel, but is that fact alone so strong that it justifies lumping her with teh bottom 10-12 characters in the game?

I'll admit, outside of the Ness v. Ivysaur matchup, I know very little about Ivysaur. I can't even begin to tell you who she has a hard time with and why.

I put her low because I don't think her recovery is safe and I hear Ivy mains complain about how bad she is. If people like my list it's basically blind luck.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.

I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.



Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

Generally I think your tiers are too large tomeaningf wh
I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.



Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

I generally agree with @ _Chrome but Sonic is definitely more viable than Wario and Snake and probably mewtwo as well imo. Yoshi could go higher too. This tier list isn't bad though for sure. And Ness is too low

 

[Saproling]

Ivy has trouble with cc more than other characters because it's easier to tell what she's trying to get at due to her start up/slow approaches. Its just easier to tell when you can cc and punish her than in comparison to others.

 

[Certix_]

Thank you guys for the feedback. The Tier List I made was for the current metagame. I will probably make a crazy potential of the characters/ what a tier list would look like years into the future if 3.6f was never updated tier list for theory purposes.

I feel like Samus should be moved up to A tier. She seems to be a bit better than everyone in B tier and I would not say that she has issues competing with a sizable portion of the cast.

Samus is one of the characters I have not seen play, or played much against. I can see her having really polarizing matchups though from her missile heavy style of play. Move up to A-tier seems reasonable.

Don't worry. There already was a lot.

jk. Mostly just G&W too high and Samus, Pika and maybe Mario too low, other than that it's not bad.

But really, people should really start specifying whether their lists are of perceived potential or current meta.

@ Steel Kangaroo Would normalizing Ivy's grab change her design dramatically? Or make her bland/unoriginal or whatever? Or mess up the DK MU and so on?

I put G&W high because I actually believe he is top tier. I believed he was top tier well before Paragon. Though I admit that my placement of him is higher than it probably should be, I just cannot believe he isn't at least top 7 in the current metagame.
Pika can be strong against several characters but I do not think that he outclasses a large portion of the cast in overall matchup spreads and viability.
Mario indeed is strong, It is hard to figure out how strong he is compared to others due to his more fundamental based nature. I agree though that he probably should be higher.
Also, I was thinking of this current meta vs perceived potential as well earlier today and people really should specify what they are aiming for(myself included).

Sheik is too low as well. She has a mostly even-to favourable matchup against everyone in the cast.

Shiek has an amazingly simple game, yet still has many positive-even matchups. I do think however that she is beat by most of those above her and few of those below her. Due to her matchup spread, she should move up a few spots.

I strongly do not think Lucario is the best character in the game, barring the fact he is above Fox, Meta Knight, Marth and friends. Besides that, it's not bad besides some stuff such as Samus and Sheik being too low. I feel like Wario's a bit too high (he struggles against characters with ranged options) and Toon Link is probably too low. Nice list otherwise.

I respect your opinion on this one. However Lucario had much of his potential this year exposed with very little direct counterplay against it besides don't get hit. He seems to be currently the most technically rewarding character bar fox/wolf while not getting punished as hard. I hold that he is currently the best character in the game until other characters show they have what it takes.
Wario has a very strong game that works on much of the cast. But, after review I think that he has a few more bad/lesser matchups than I originally thought. so he could move down a few spots.
Toon Link has sword+projectiles and a strong neutral and punish thereof, but he loses out to greater versions of these and to faster/get in characters, so I think he sits near the bottom of A-tier.

I think Marth could be S, he has a super good mu spread. Samus, sheik, pikachu and snake are also too low imo. And I'd put lucario and wario lower. Also I'd switch diddy and mewtwo.

Marth is strong, but he isn't dominatingly so and has a lot of counterplay as is. I don't think he is S but just below it.
Snake has a very scatterd MU spread and counterplay against him is character specific, so I think he is solidly mid-tier and needs a secondary for some MU's
Diddy is really good and after watching Junebug and Seagull Joe play I will say that he should move up some, as the banana + Peanut gun + speed makes the character very solid onstage.
Mewtwo can be very good, but not many are currently pushing his 3.6f meta so I will also say that he drops on this current metagame tier list

Snake is definitely not too low. He has absolutely awful matchups against characters like Sheik, Marth, Toon Link and Fox where some of them are so free it's almost laughable. Professor Pro hates the Sheik matchup so much that he switches to Fox if I recall correctly. Counterplay against Snake is simple when you're playing a character who doesn't need to approach. Of course, Snake's punish game is godlike and it can be a process to learn how to edgeguard him, so I can understand why you think that way.

Other than that though, I believe you're absolutely right. Lucario is dang good but doesn't have answers for everything in neutral, Pikachu I can understand why you think he's better so I can get behind it and Samus has a strong matchup spread against characters like Fox, Falco, and Metaknight all of whom are top tier characters. Wolf is a good matchup too, and personally I believe that the Sheik matchup has improved. I also theorize that Samus would be decent against Rob and Lucario too.

Gosh, I feel like I wrote so poorly I just barfed on my keyboard. Super rambly.

Agreed on Snake.
But Lucario has enough answers in neutral to win very consistently, or adapt until he does.
I do not know enough about Samus, but I will believe that she at least deserves A-tier.
Rambly is fine.

I think this tier list is pretty off... I'll discuss some of my problems with it.

Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.

I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)

As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.

The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.

I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.



Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.

I very well could have separated the tiers more, but it just felt like I was making arbitrary lines in the middle of nowhere.
I placed G&W there mainly on personal opinion disregarding Paragon, however he mightve jumped a couple of spots after watching Mr.Lz play then him saying he didn't know matchups he was winning. I think he has plenty of options vs. disjoint and projectiles if he counterpicks correctly. His movement is very good and he is very hard to start and finish combos on. In the future I can see him dropping tiers though as people figure out his animation/hitbox wierdness.
Agreed on Diddy.
Ike has troubles with shield pressure, which most of those above him have in plenty.
Tink is too counterable in my opinion, though I can see him being trouble for many characters.
It is very hard to place zelda as no one I know plays her and I have seen very little video in 3.6 to go off of.
Pika has untapped potential, but I still can't see him being objectively better than those above him.
Yoshi has problems with a lot of other characters main gameplan and his counterplay is rather limited.
Wario I concede does have more problems than I originally thought.
Mewtwo has yet to be shown as a force to be reckoned with and few are trying to make this a reality. He has potential though
Charizard has a strong game, he is just fat and easy to combo. If anything I think he should move up. However in the future I can see him dropping.
Link seems like he is still at least middle of the cast. His gameplan is not garbage, just lesser. I don't think I would move him

Your list seems fine on a general level but I disagree with a lot of characters in their specific placement. Nice list Overall. For some reason I do not believe fox is the best character anymore.


I may or may not update my current meta tier list and may or may not make a future potential tier list.

Again, thanks for the feedback guys.

 

[FreeGamer]

Today I learned! My knowledge is seriously lacking on every character I haven't played, so it's good to hear that hammer is useful. If you could alter Kirby's recovery to make it less predictable / overall stronger, how would you go about it?

For starters, I would revert Cutter Dash back to its 3.5 self.

 

[robosteven]

I don't think any tether grabs are quick enough for that. They either are too slow (like Ivy) or they don't reach max range quick enough.

Oh look, that Olimar buff/nerf I've been gunning for for a while.

PMDT please consider.

If I had it my way (which many past patches have proven will never happen), tether grabs would both come out faster and reach max distance in a matter of at least 2-3 frames, and to compensate they'd be stupid punishable when whiffed.

Y'know, to promote on-point decision making and a fair response to things like shield pressure and CC for all characters currently dealing with having a low-tier grab.

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Today I learned! My knowledge is seriously lacking on every character I haven't played, so it's good to hear that hammer is useful. If you could alter Kirby's recovery to make it less predictable / overall stronger, how would you go about it?

Kirby's recovery is fine, if anything give back 3.5 cutter, the new one is stupid from what little I've played with it.
However giving him better air mobility would be good and also improve his recovery I guess.

 

[mimgrim]

Today I learned! My knowledge is seriously lacking on every character I haven't played, so it's good to hear that hammer is useful. If you could alter Kirby's recovery to make it less predictable / overall stronger, how would you go about it?

Other then some clean-up on current Cutter Dash (like, as was mentioned, put it back to 3.5 stats at least) his recovery is fine as is. 5 jumps plus a vertical and horizontal recovery allows for plenty of mix-up in recovery.

The only other thing would be increasing air mobility for him but that is less about helping his recovery (which it would do anyway) and more about, hopefully, fitting his design better.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Dang, I meant to actually post just that in my analysis oft tethers I was gonna make, but I kinda forgot. Maybe a thread discussing the (few) pros and (many cons) in all tethers and discuss what are reasonable buffs in each given case (since all tethers dont have to be treated the same). But yeah, max range tethers in 2-3 frames is a must imo. Idk Olimar, but it seems like it would be a huge buff to them all while still being reasonable. That is the best thing Ivy has going for her grab, it reaches max range on the frame it comes out.

 

[robosteven]

Idk Olimar, but it seems like it would be a huge buff to them all while still being reasonable. That is the best thing Ivy has going for her grab, it reaches max range on the frame it comes out.

Olimar has 15 active grab frames. It takes the Pikmin 15 frames of walking for the actual grab to reach its full distance and end. While 15 active grab frames is an amazing thing, it's unintuitive and dumb and should really only last for a few frames, especially if you want to encourage more accurate spacing.

I could go on for hours about this specific garbage right here, but you get the idea.

 

[steelguttey]

but i like not losing to spotdodges for some reason

on a serious note yea olimar has alot of dumb stuff and his grab is def one of them

 

[Blank Mauser]

Also, I've never liked the argument that Crouch Cancel is inherently a bad mechanic because it rewards you for getting hit. There's another option in this game that rewards you for being hit, and most of you will defend it---and that is shielding. Dash up shield is intentionally asking your opponent to hit you, and then punishing them for committing to an option. You take no damage and you expend a resource (shield) that regenerates automatically. The reason why we like it is it adds another layer of interaction.

Crouch cancelling is us accepting damage and potential knockback in the hopes of having a faster defensive option or for survival. I think the technique would have less hate if it looked like Focusing in STreetfighter or something of the ilk, but if you are making hte claim that its bad PURELY because it rewards you for getting hit, then I think you are not standing on a strong foundation to justify your argument.

Shielding requires you to be in a neutral state, CC'ing doesn't. You can do a move that seems completely punishable, and then CC your opponents punish and attack back. It puts the burden of choosing the appropriate punish on your opponent even if it seems like you've made a mistake.

I'm not saying anything for or against the mechanic, but CC'ing is not the same as shielding.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Shielding requires you to be in a neutral state, CC'ing doesn't. You can do a move that seems completely punishable, and then CC your opponents punish and attack back. It puts the burden of choosing the appropriate punish on your opponent even if it seems like you've made a mistake.

I'm not saying anything for or against the mechanic, but CC'ing is not the same as shielding.

Please use correct terminology. You and most people here may get what you mean, but others reading might not. A "crouch cancel" (or true cc) usually refers to being in an actual crouch while asdi down, though used in any crouch cancel, can be done during the end lag of moves. The former reduces knockback while putting you grounded and the latter just puts you grounded without any change to kb.

Olimar has 15 active grab frames. It takes the Pikmin 15 frames of walking for the actual grab to reach its full distance and end. While 15 active grab frames is an amazing thing, it's unintuitive and dumb and should really only last for a few frames, especially if you want to encourage more accurate spacing.

I could go on for hours about this specific garbage right here, but you get the idea.

That's what I thought. That's why I said I didn't know about Oli, because technically that wouldn't be a buff (unless I was missing something, which I wasn't).

 

[DrinkingFood]

jesus **** olimar's pikmin grab is active for 15 frames?
I had no idea, this explains so much bull****
I don't think most tethers grabs take that long to reach max distance. Olimar's (It's kinda a tether) appears to be on the extreme end, samus's too. The thing about tether grabs reaching max distance quicker is that, for most of them, any quicker would largely outclass regular grabs, samus and olimar being exceptions. Regular grabs are less commitment, but overall the cover less space and are more susceptible to uncertainty, and getting the extra distance tether grabs get requires dashing for several extra frames (or quite a few extra frames on slow characters) meaning a tether can reach certain distances in about the same time, or slightly more, as some characters while also covering all the space inbetween. Most tethers reach max distance just quick enough to beat what would normally be safe spacing on shield (stuff that beats WD OoS grab against regular grabs) but lose worse to frame-tight pressure. Granted, the extremely slow tethers either to come out or to extend (Samus and Olimar basically) don't really gain this advantage because by the time they reach [beats WD OoS Grab] spacing, a WD OoS regular grab could have actually beaten it.

 

[_Chrome]

Thank you guys for the feedback. The Tier List I made was for the current metagame. I will probably make a crazy potential of the characters/ what a tier list would look like years into the future if 3.6f was never updated tier list for theory purposes.


Samus is one of the characters I have not seen play, or played much against. I can see her having really polarizing matchups though from her missile heavy style of play. Move up to A-tier seems reasonable.


I put G&W high because I actually believe he is top tier. I believed he was top tier well before Paragon. Though I admit that my placement of him is higher than it probably should be, I just cannot believe he isn't at least top 7 in the current metagame.
Pika can be strong against several characters but I do not think that he outclasses a large portion of the cast in overall matchup spreads and viability.
Mario indeed is strong, It is hard to figure out how strong he is compared to others due to his more fundamental based nature. I agree though that he probably should be higher.
Also, I was thinking of this current meta vs perceived potential as well earlier today and people really should specify what they are aiming for(myself included).


Shiek has an amazingly simple game, yet still has many positive-even matchups. I do think however that she is beat by most of those above her and few of those below her. Due to her matchup spread, she should move up a few spots.


I respect your opinion on this one. However Lucario had much of his potential this year exposed with very little direct counterplay against it besides don't get hit. He seems to be currently the most technically rewarding character bar fox/wolf while not getting punished as hard. I hold that he is currently the best character in the game until other characters show they have what it takes.
Wario has a very strong game that works on much of the cast. But, after review I think that he has a few more bad/lesser matchups than I originally thought. so he could move down a few spots.
Toon Link has sword+projectiles and a strong neutral and punish thereof, but he loses out to greater versions of these and to faster/get in characters, so I think he sits near the bottom of A-tier.


Marth is strong, but he isn't dominatingly so and has a lot of counterplay as is. I don't think he is S but just below it.
Snake has a very scatterd MU spread and counterplay against him is character specific, so I think he is solidly mid-tier and needs a secondary for some MU's
Diddy is really good and after watching Junebug and Seagull Joe play I will say that he should move up some, as the banana + Peanut gun + speed makes the character very solid onstage.
Mewtwo can be very good, but not many are currently pushing his 3.6f meta so I will also say that he drops on this current metagame tier list


Agreed on Snake.
But Lucario has enough answers in neutral to win very consistently, or adapt until he does.
I do not know enough about Samus, but I will believe that she at least deserves A-tier.
Rambly is fine.




I very well could have separated the tiers more, but it just felt like I was making arbitrary lines in the middle of nowhere.
I placed G&W there mainly on personal opinion disregarding Paragon, however he mightve jumped a couple of spots after watching Mr.Lz play then him saying he didn't know matchups he was winning. I think he has plenty of options vs. disjoint and projectiles if he counterpicks correctly. His movement is very good and he is very hard to start and finish combos on. In the future I can see him dropping tiers though as people figure out his animation/hitbox wierdness.
Agreed on Diddy.
Ike has troubles with shield pressure, which most of those above him have in plenty.
Tink is too counterable in my opinion, though I can see him being trouble for many characters.
It is very hard to place zelda as no one I know plays her and I have seen very little video in 3.6 to go off of.
Pika has untapped potential, but I still can't see him being objectively better than those above him.
Yoshi has problems with a lot of other characters main gameplan and his counterplay is rather limited.
Wario I concede does have more problems than I originally thought.
Mewtwo has yet to be shown as a force to be reckoned with and few are trying to make this a reality. He has potential though
Charizard has a strong game, he is just fat and easy to combo. If anything I think he should move up. However in the future I can see him dropping.
Link seems like he is still at least middle of the cast. His gameplan is not garbage, just lesser. I don't think I would move him

Your list seems fine on a general level but I disagree with a lot of characters in their specific placement. Nice list Overall. For some reason I do not believe fox is the best character anymore.


I may or may not update my current meta tier list and may or may not make a future potential tier list.

Again, thanks for the feedback guys.

Wonderful response, Certix. I look forward to a revised version of your tier list, whenever that may come.

And to clarify, I do believe Lucario is a good character, I just don't quite seeing him being the absolute best. That said, in the hands of an intelligent player, he's incredibly dangerous and quite the force. Certainly, his punish game is mathematically one of the best, but his neutral is kind of lacking. Still competitive, but in my eyes (which are currently stinging from the pool) not top meta, more akin to anti-meta.

EDIT: G&W is good, but he probably isn't S tier.

 

[Idostuff]

I think the main point of the shield vs CC/asdi down is this. Shields were a thought out game mechanic that is uniform through the whole cast. CC is just a unintentional byproduct of the Melee engine that was never created to be balanced, and helps some characters much more than others.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Being unintended doesn't make it bad or w/e. There's a lot of stuff in melee that's unintended but overall improves the design of the game. Balance and design are different things.

 

[Bazkip]

I think the main point of the shield vs CC/asdi down is this. Shields were a thought out game mechanic that is uniform through the whole cast. CC is just a unintentional byproduct of the Melee engine that was never created to be balanced, and helps some characters much more than others.

Crouching to reduce knockback was definitely an intentional mechanic in Melee, I'm guessing you meant ASDI down to get knocked down but come on man, @ TheGravyTrain just posted saying to use proper terminology. Shields are also not uniform, differing shield sizes means that some characters are resistant to being shield poked whereas others are more vulnerable.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I play Ike. CC is ****ing ****ed to deal with.

But I like dumb rhetoric even less than I like CC. Punished for landing a hit? No, punished for using a move you know can be rebuffed by ASDI down + counterplay, meaning you approached sloppily, so that's what you got punished for. That logic is a two way street. CC means not all moves are created equal, that you have to be crisp in your movement and your spacing and your bait and punish game and you gotta think to get your strings started. This I like.

I also like that it gives having a heavy weight some actual advantages. The fatties get bogged down in being slow, laggy, punishable ... giving them this gives a legit avenue to balance them around, to fit that mold of "shrugging hits off", muscling through the pain to win.

It's just sort of weirdly balanced, though. All the fatties should have good CC options. The lightfast characters shouldn't benefit from it as much, or have ways to circumvent it as easily [Shine. Cough.] This is where I reiterate for the thousandth time, why-doesn't-Bowser-have-Peach's-DSmash. I know it got buffed in 3.6, which is cool. But it was damned overdue. Slap armor on the uncharged version too, just to cement it as a reversal move.

Here's the thing. Bowser. His armor was willy-nilly earlier. The idea itself was sound, but it was just slapped onto his moveset. Nah. He needed something else with the armor. Ways to actually use it. What use is armor on his FSmash, exactly? That flashing-neon-sign-thing that'll never hit a damn thing without four reads? You know that Falcon Punch has a better chance of landing than Bowser's FSmash, right? Because he can use it in the air on recovering opponents that can't shield or airdodge in the middle of an animation [or will die if they airdodge.] The Salty highlights guy does it a lot.

Fatties and slowpokes need to cheat. This game is based on movement. If fatties can't get to as many places as fast as the lightfasts can, they need to cheat. They need things like Mewtwo's space-invader burst combo extend, or his/Peach's screw-you-my-aerial-control-is-absolute, or Jiggs/Fartso's stupid weaving, or Ike's/R.o.B's I'm-in-your-face. Different sets of commitment, different rules, different advantages, but they have it and they need things like that, otherwise Cartoon Katniss and Dunston Checked In will just run circles around them with no end in sight. [Ganon would appreciate more airtime on that hover, btw. He still sucks.]

My question is, if Bowser is going to be the spiky armored guy, let him be the spiky armored guy who uses armor to deal with the **** he has trouble with. You know, projectiles? Give that FSmash of his some reach. Like give it a back-step windup and then he bloody lunges forward with an armored shoulder tackle. Muscles through the Linkarang or the leaf or the laser and straight-up bulldozes the other guy with a Wolf-esque FSmash. Nerf the killpower, but don't make it a combo move, just make it chuck the other guy off. Give Bowser some burst, some reach, some teeth, some reason to respect him and put the fear of god in Kingpin Koopa. Leave armor on USmash too, but give it more quake. Whether on platforms or the ground, tech chases galore and screw your get-up attack, sir. Like yeah, he needs the armor, but he needs it on moves he can plow through **** with, you know?

Also, we ever going to make Zelda the ranged-edgeguarder-from-hell slash Sorceress Supreme? No, **** her? Okay then ...

 

[DrinkingFood]

@Umbreon I just did some brief labwork for sheik's throws in the ditto, regarding the conversation we had at paragon about the DI mix-up. Against DI straight down, sheik regrabbing sheik off dthrow is a 1 frame window at 0 (there are only 9 frames before sheik touches the ground where the throwing sheik can act), and a 3 frame window at 20 (you have to dash for 2 frame minimum, and the thrown sheik is airborne for 12 frames after the thrower can act). Keep in mind this is for several inputs, too (dash, jump, grab) meaning without insane practice this isn't going to be reliable until mid percents. I am still convinced this is what you're doing, DIing straight down, rather than actually hitting the correct DI on reaction, for most people this will not be workable and they will get like a dash attack or worse punish depending on what's actually possible. I haven't tested bthrow, but I suspect something similar is true due to its farther release point from sheik.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Olimar has 15 active grab frames. It takes the Pikmin 15 frames of walking for the actual grab to reach its full distance and end. While 15 active grab frames is an amazing thing, it's unintuitive and dumb and should really only last for a few frames, especially if you want to encourage more accurate spacing.

I could go on for hours about this specific garbage right here, but you get the idea.

Is this why i grab my opponent and they throw out a hit box and hit me out of my grab? This never made sense to me at all.

Also, bowser doesnt need a quick draw, why the hell does he need that? All he really needs is a way to approach and maybe a way to make forward smash or bowser bomb more rewarding on shield (seriously why is forward smash unsafe and blast bowser more forward than it does the opponenet backward to be hurr durr durr punished.) and MAYBE a stall outside of the rediculous reversed reverse klaw input for stall (its so hard i dont even see odds doing this), its far to inconsistent.

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon I just did some brief labwork for sheik's throws in the ditto, regarding the conversation we had at paragon about the DI mix-up. Against DI straight down, sheik regrabbing sheik off dthrow is a 1 frame window at 0 (there are only 9 frames before sheik touches the ground where the throwing sheik can act), and a 3 frame window at 20 (you have to dash for 2 frame minimum, and the thrown sheik is airborne for 12 frames after the thrower can act). Keep in mind this is for several inputs, too (dash, jump, grab) meaning without insane practice this isn't going to be reliable until mid percents. I am still convinced this is what you're doing, DIing straight down, rather than actually hitting the correct DI on reaction, for most people this will not be workable and they will get like a dash attack or worse punish depending on what's actually possible. I haven't tested bthrow, but I suspect something similar is true due to its farther release point from sheik.

i hit down upon being grabbed, and then roll the stick along with the throw animation. its not just holding down the entire time, which is still pretty easy to punish off of a dthrow tbh.

 

[Droß]

Shielding requires you to be in a neutral state, CC'ing doesn't. You can do a move that seems completely punishable, and then CC your opponents punish and attack back. It puts the burden of choosing the appropriate punish on your opponent even if it seems like you've made a mistake.

I'm not saying anything for or against the mechanic, but CC'ing is not the same as shielding.

It is true that CC and shield are not identical, but can you not claim your argument for shielding as well? I can use a move that seems punishable, then shield the enemy's response attack and punish as a result. Yes, you can grab a shield, but with adequate timing, you can also grab a crouching player as well, making CC vulnerable to that response as well. (Does grab armor still exist in PM?)

Furthermore, are mix-ups and rock-paper-scissors tactics not hallmarks of high level psychological play? In martial arts, military combat, and even other strategic games such as chess, feigning attacks to provoke a desired response out of the opponent is very often employed to great effect. How does this put the burden of skill on the opponent? The CCing player needs to first know that their first attack (the feign) isn't immediately punishable by their opponent, then correctly anticipate the opponent's response, and THEN CC and follow up with an appropriate return punish. Furthermore, the ability for the attacking player to know when the defender might want to use a CC to best effect gives hints as to when they might actually do so, which further increases the potential for mix-ups and further increases difficulty for the player using the CC as a result. So if anything, the burden of skill is heavier for the player attempting to use the CC for a parry-type effect, and that's one of many things that makes competitive Smash Bros so beautifully complex and deep.

 

[AceGamer]

(Does grab armor still exist in PM?).

There is no grab armour, it's grab priority just like Melee except you take percent and no knockback in PM so it gives the illusion of armour

 

[Droß]

There is no grab armour, it's grab priority just like Melee except you take percent and no knockback in PM so it gives the illusion of armour

Ah, ok. Thanks! That's an important distinction.

Also, as a certified scrub, I'd like you guys to tear apart the tier list for 3.6 that I put together in like 10 minutes. I tried to list characters based on how they would theoretically perform against the rest of the cast assumed they were played with perfect execution (no tech flubs, etc), given current tech knowledge (no undiscovered techs). I didn't put the effort to sort every character, so it's really just grouped based on what row they're in. DISCLAIMER: My game knowledge is severly lacking overall, so it would be nice to get schooled on a lot of these characters, particularly on the ones in the D, E, and F tiers.

In general, I thought that characters that have moves with less endlag and earlier hitboxes on moves would perform better than those that didn't, mostly due to a theoretically more flexible neutral as well as combos and follow-ups. Those with decent recovery mix-ups were listed higher on average than those that could cover large distances with one or two types of main recovery options (Jiggly, Peach, etc). To some extent, kill power and viability of getting kills was taken into account, but I'm lacking in knowledge in that department as well. Finally, ground mobility was important as well (wavedash distance, dash dance length, running speed).

So yeah, feel free to tear me apart.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Ah, ok. Thanks! That's an important distinction.

Also, as a certified scrub, I'd like you guys to tear apart the tier list for 3.6 that I put together in like 10 minutes. I tried to list characters based on how they would theoretically perform against the rest of the cast assumed they were played with perfect execution (no tech flubs, etc), given current tech knowledge (no undiscovered techs). I didn't put the effort to sort every character, so it's really just grouped based on what row they're in. DISCLAIMER: My game knowledge is severly lacking overall, so it would be nice to get schooled on a lot of these characters, particularly on the ones in the D, E, and F tiers.

In general, I thought that characters that have moves with less endlag and earlier hitboxes on moves would perform better than those that didn't, mostly due to a theoretically more flexible neutral as well as combos and follow-ups. Those with decent recovery mix-ups were listed higher on average than those that could cover large distances with one or two types of main recovery options (Jiggly, Peach, etc). To some extent, kill power and viability of getting kills was taken into account, but I'm lacking in knowledge in that department as well. Finally, ground mobility was important as well (wavedash distance, dash dance length, running speed).

So yeah, feel free to tear me apart. View attachment 73316

S Tier-slot is really weird, I've never seen any of them that high...
I will give credit for Wario's placement.