Thank you guys for the feedback. The Tier List I made was for the current metagame. I will probably make a crazy potential of the characters/ what a tier list would look like years into the future if 3.6f was never updated tier list for theory purposes.
I feel like Samus should be moved up to A tier. She seems to be a bit better than everyone in B tier and I would not say that she has issues competing with a sizable portion of the cast.
Samus is one of the characters I have not seen play, or played much against. I can see her having really polarizing matchups though from her missile heavy style of play. Move up to A-tier seems reasonable.
Don't worry. There already was a lot.
jk. Mostly just G&W too high and Samus, Pika and maybe Mario too low, other than that it's not bad.
But really, people should really start specifying whether their lists are of perceived potential or current meta.
@
Steel Kangaroo
Would normalizing Ivy's grab change her design dramatically? Or make her bland/unoriginal or whatever? Or mess up the DK MU and so on?
I put G&W high because I actually believe he is top tier. I believed he was top tier well before Paragon. Though I admit that my placement of him is higher than it probably should be, I just cannot believe he isn't at least top 7 in the current metagame.
Pika can be strong against several characters but I do not think that he outclasses a large portion of the cast in overall matchup spreads and viability.
Mario indeed is strong, It is hard to figure out how strong he is compared to others due to his more fundamental based nature. I agree though that he probably should be higher.
Also, I was thinking of this current meta vs perceived potential as well earlier today and people really should specify what they are aiming for(myself included).
Sheik is too low as well. She has a mostly even-to favourable matchup against everyone in the cast.
Shiek has an amazingly simple game, yet still has many positive-even matchups. I do think however that she is beat by most of those above her and few of those below her. Due to her matchup spread, she should move up a few spots.
I strongly do not think Lucario is the best character in the game, barring the fact he is above Fox, Meta Knight, Marth and friends. Besides that, it's not bad besides some stuff such as Samus and Sheik being too low. I feel like Wario's a bit too high (he struggles against characters with ranged options) and Toon Link is probably too low. Nice list otherwise.
I respect your opinion on this one. However Lucario had much of his potential this year exposed with very little direct counterplay against it besides don't get hit. He seems to be currently the most technically rewarding character bar fox/wolf while not getting punished as hard. I hold that he is currently the best character in the game until other characters show they have what it takes.
Wario has a very strong game that works on much of the cast. But, after review I think that he has a few more bad/lesser matchups than I originally thought. so he could move down a few spots.
Toon Link has sword+projectiles and a strong neutral and punish thereof, but he loses out to greater versions of these and to faster/get in characters, so I think he sits near the bottom of A-tier.
I think Marth could be S, he has a super good mu spread. Samus, sheik, pikachu and snake are also too low imo. And I'd put lucario and wario lower. Also I'd switch diddy and mewtwo.
Marth is strong, but he isn't dominatingly so and has a lot of counterplay as is. I don't think he is S but just below it.
Snake has a very scatterd MU spread and counterplay against him is character specific, so I think he is solidly mid-tier and needs a secondary for some MU's
Diddy is really good and after watching Junebug and Seagull Joe play I will say that he should move up some, as the banana + Peanut gun + speed makes the character very solid onstage.
Mewtwo can be very good, but not many are currently pushing his 3.6f meta so I will also say that he drops on this current metagame tier list
Snake is definitely not too low. He has absolutely awful matchups against characters like Sheik, Marth, Toon Link and Fox where some of them are so free it's almost laughable. Professor Pro hates the Sheik matchup so much that he switches to Fox if I recall correctly. Counterplay against Snake is simple when you're playing a character who doesn't need to approach. Of course, Snake's punish game is godlike and it can be a process to learn how to edgeguard him, so I can understand why you think that way.
Other than that though, I believe you're absolutely right. Lucario is dang good but doesn't have answers for everything in neutral, Pikachu I can understand why you think he's better so I can get behind it and Samus has a strong matchup spread against characters like Fox, Falco, and Metaknight all of whom are top tier characters. Wolf is a good matchup too, and personally I believe that the Sheik matchup has improved. I also theorize that Samus would be decent against Rob and Lucario too.
Gosh, I feel like I wrote so poorly I just barfed on my keyboard. Super rambly.
Agreed on Snake.
But Lucario has enough answers in neutral to win very consistently, or adapt until he does.
I do not know enough about Samus, but I will believe that she at least deserves A-tier.
Rambly is fine.
I think this tier list is pretty off... I'll discuss some of my problems with it.
Generally I think your tiers are too large to be meaningful. While I appreciate the sentiment in trying to imply that the tiers are quite close, this tier list makes it difficult to see who needs adjustments.
I don't like where you placed G&W. He has bad matchups against characters with either more disjoint than him or with projectiles he can't bucket. Considering the number of characters that have either of those traits, that puts him less than S tier. Since he just won Paragon, I'm not surprised by this reactionary judgment. (haha... ha... Judgement... his side-b)
As other people mentioned, Marth and Shiek have few matchups in their disadvantage. They should be much higher. I think Diddy should be higher, his kit forces opponents to play to his gameplan in my opinion. Ike should be higher, as well as Tink. Zelda, Pika and Yoshi could move up a few slots. Wario should be lower, as well as Mewtwo. Charizard and Link could go down a few rungs.
The rest of it is a bit too muddled by how the tiers are laid out to give worthwhile feed back.
I thought that the automatically generated list had issues but served as a somewhat viable base for the top tiers at least.
Generally speaking I think there are pretty clear-cut upper and lower halves of the cast, and the generated chart doesn't represent that. This is my opinion on a tier list, take it with a grain of salt though cuz i m a scrub. Very willing to be told I'm wrong.
I very well could have separated the tiers more, but it just felt like I was making arbitrary lines in the middle of nowhere.
I placed G&W there mainly on personal opinion disregarding Paragon, however he mightve jumped a couple of spots after watching Mr.Lz play then him saying he didn't know matchups he was winning. I think he has plenty of options vs. disjoint and projectiles if he counterpicks correctly. His movement is very good and he is very hard to start and finish combos on. In the future I can see him dropping tiers though as people figure out his animation/hitbox wierdness.
Agreed on Diddy.
Ike has troubles with shield pressure, which most of those above him have in plenty.
Tink is too counterable in my opinion, though I can see him being trouble for many characters.
It is very hard to place zelda as no one I know plays her and I have seen very little video in 3.6 to go off of.
Pika has untapped potential, but I still can't see him being objectively better than those above him.
Yoshi has problems with a lot of other characters main gameplan and his counterplay is rather limited.
Wario I concede does have more problems than I originally thought.
Mewtwo has yet to be shown as a force to be reckoned with and few are trying to make this a reality. He has potential though
Charizard has a strong game, he is just fat and easy to combo. If anything I think he should move up. However in the future I can see him dropping.
Link seems like he is still at least middle of the cast. His gameplan is not garbage, just lesser. I don't think I would move him
Your list seems fine on a general level but I disagree with a lot of characters in their specific placement. Nice list Overall. For some reason I do not believe fox is the best character anymore.
I may or may not update my current meta tier list and may or may not make a future potential tier list.
Again, thanks for the feedback guys.