Tier List Speculation

[AuraMaudeGone]

I find that usually when somebody says CC beats their character, what they really mean is "I'm bad at stopping my autopilot approaches"

Hmm, didn't mean for this topic to blow up in here...
It's not so much that. It's more of what @ TreK is trying to get at. By principal, why is it good that I'm getting punished for successfully hitting you? (outside of a counter move situation). I'm not denying that you should be read and punished if you become predictable during neutral, but CC/ASDI down isn't a healthy way to do that.
Yes I agree there are solid ways to get around CC, but like I said earlier some characters have a really tricky time doing that.

 

[PlateProp]

People talking about cc/asdi being bad for them

At least your dtilt isint made completely useless by it no matter the percent cause people can asdi down the first hit and shield the second ;-;

 

[MLGF]

My big problem with Crouch Canceling is that nothing seems consistent about it.

Crouching on many characters does not visually indicate that knockback decrease. That makes it feel extremely unintuitive for newer players. The next issue is that CC counterplay comes in throws, so then why can some characters crouch under almost all throws? I can understand Puff due to her weight. But why does Snake have it? It feels like character crouch hurtboxes weren't balanced at all around how good their crouch cancel is.

Honestly, I feel as if crouch canceling lasts too long regardless, but its biggest flaw is how unintuitive it feels.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ TreK

Generally, quick multi hits are good in cc situations because it prevents them from crouching the strong hit. As far as I can tell, Dtilt, nair, and ftilt are all too quick to asdi down and enter full crouch before the final hit. Even weirder, the 2 moves you mention that are quick enough are the moves that aren't (jabs and bair). For those that don't know, when you asdi down (and crouch cancel, which is reducing kb by a third, then asdi'ing down) you go through normal landing lag (most characters its 4, M2 and a few others have 5). So in the case of multihits, if the time between each hit is less than/equal to 4, they cannot enter full crouch and thus you only have to worry about asdi down on the final hit. Spacing does matter for this though.

Jab 1 + 2
There is 11 frames between jab 1 and jab 2. Thats enough for most good cc'ers to get a move in there, much less true crouch the second hit. You mention this as not like nair/ftilt/etc. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying?

Ftilt
This is quick enough to deal with it, though in my limited experience because of them removing the rear final hit you can asdi through incredibly easy. The only other 3.6 Full change that affects this is adding one extra hit (and I have no idea how 3.5 ftilt compares).

Dtilt
You mentioned this as breaking it at a distance, which is correct.

Nair-
This is the one that I thought was weird you claimed wasn't quick enough. The hits are definitely all close enough together. Upon testing in game though, when I actually asdi'd down (as wolf) he was too low to get hit on the first frame of the next hit and thus was able to shield/enter full crouch. So if you do an instant nair, your results may vary from a falling nair. It all depends where the hitboxes are and how big/tall the opponent is.

Bair-
Even if you count from the latest of the first hitbox to the earliest of the second hitbox (where spacing usually prevents both of those hitting), there is still 6 frames in between, allowing any character to asdi down + shield or full crouch the second hit.

All this considered, dtilt/bair/ftilt (bar asdi, if thats a thing) should be good v cc/asdi down. Nair depends on spacing, and thus I don't have enough info to say. Not having close range options can be fixed by buffing ftilt/jabs imo. It doesn't have to be absurd, ftilt just seems so easy to asdi, even though they said it should be harder to do just that. Jabs, if you speed up jab 2 you have another solid close range move that deals with asdi that is also quick. If I'm understanding jabs right, if they allowed jab 2 to starter earlier (not come out quicker, just allow jab 2 to start earlier in jab 1, essentially the same thing), it would have to be by like 7 frames. Idk if they are willing to do that.

And even all this considered, Ivy has options vs cc/asdi down. Not combo starters, but spacing is a pretty effective tool to deal with it and is not very clear when this discussion comes up that it is a valid option.

0 degree linking hit of Squirtle dtilt when?

 

[Tarul]

Are the relevant characters in Melee weak to CC ? No.
-Fox, Marth, Sheik, CF and ICs have extremely strong grab combos, you could even say grab is their main combo starter and

Just saying, but Sheik struggles against CC. All of her tilts and her DA can be CC'd to mid percentages, her aerials can be CC'd as well (fair until like 20%), and even downsmash can be CC'd below like 20%. Having a good grab does not solve your CC problem - you have to get extremely close to grab; meanwhile, your tilts and other "attack" options have much larger threat zones and hitboxes for spacing.

I think that CC is a fine addition to the game, as it causes your opponents to be more aware of your opponent's percentage. You're stronger when you begin a fight, so it's nice to see a little bit of a reward for being at lower percents. Also, CC'ing does a good job at punishing predictable approaches that use the same formula

That said, Ivy could definitely use a buff to deal with CC. She doesn't even have a grab lol.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Just saying, but Sheik struggles against CC. All of her tilts and her DA can be CC'd to mid percentages, her aerials can be CC'd as well (fair until like 20%), and even downsmash can be CC'd below like 20%. Having a good grab does not solve your CC problem - you have to get extremely close to grab; meanwhile, your tilts and other "attack" options have much larger threat zones and hitboxes for spacing.

I think that CC is a fine addition to the game, as it causes your opponents to be more aware of your opponent's percentage. You're stronger when you begin a fight, so it's nice to see a little bit of a reward for being at lower percents. Also, CC'ing does a good job at punishing predictable approaches that use the same formula

I'm having a hard time understanding the bolded fundamentally.
You should be aware of your opponent's percentage for a multitude of things, not exclusively CC/ASDI. Also, most moves don't break it until very late percentages.
What rewards are you talking about that couldn't be achieved by Shield/Dodge/Rolls/WD?

 

[Deleted member]

We could just give everyone Quick Draw.

... You know you want to.

i was thinking mewtwos teleport float system AND lucarios cancel system. so we can do tas ganondorf combos.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

I find that usually when somebody says CC beats their character, what they really mean is "I'm bad at stopping my autopilot approaches"

It's more than that. I've heard from multiple top players that "Ivysaur has no real approaches". At a lot of distances where razor leaf can't cause a stagger, ivy can be zoned and forced to approach unsafely. There are really no safe moves in Ivys kit to use on a crouching fast faller at 0 that wont result in an unfavorable trade. This creates stalemate situations where Ivy doesn't want to approach because there's no safe option, but fox's shdl is forcing his approach. Fox can then crouch through any aerial approach and usmash. I understand not wanting Ivysaurs approaches and pressure to be overwhelming because it would be OP, but right now landing a hit that doesn't result in a bad trade for us at low %s is tough in a lot of matchups.

One potential fix could be to change the IASA frames of dtilt so she can act faster so Ivysaur gains more from sweetspot dtilting a crouching opponent. Right now on a crouching opponent, sweetspot dtilt causes a small amount of stagger, but ivy and her opponent are actionable at the same time bc the move is multihit. Trek did a good job explaining why a floaty-ish character with multihit moves loses a lot of trades with crouching opponents. I saw buffing grab as one way of dealing with that, but I'm sure there are others. Lowering the frames between jab1 and jab2 would be an interesting change also.

 

[Tarul]

I'm having a hard time understanding the bolded fundamentally.
You should be aware of your opponent's percentage for a multitude of things, not exclusively CC/ASDI. Also, most moves don't break it until very late percentages.
What rewards are you talking about that couldn't be achieved by Shield/Dodge/Rolls/WD?

I was actually referring to the fact that, in theory, crouch-cancelling rewards you for not being hit, since it only works at percents when you haven't been hit much. It also rewards players for hitting with slower, stronger moves than faster, weaker moves (though this parts gets a bit gray because "Fox and stuff," but I'm more referring to MK's design and counterplay in this instance).

Also, CC'ing is still has a trade-off. Best case, you take damage, and you get a hit off. Worst case, they use a move that damages you and prevents you from getting your move off. But, as compensation, CC'ing usually gives very nice combo starters and kill options out of tilts and smash attacks that are normally harder/riskier to space.

I think that CC'ing is an interesting dynamic that forces your opponents to be aware of when they should take risks and use stronger moves. The problem is that not all characters have strong moves available that can be used reasonably against CC'ing. Ivysaur is a prime example. And this, I believe, tends to be more of a problem of that character's kit design than an overall game mechanic.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I was actually referring to the fact that, in theory, crouch-cancelling rewards you for not being hit, since it only works at percents when you haven't been hit much. It also rewards players for hitting with slower, stronger moves than faster, weaker moves (though this parts gets a bit gray because "Fox and stuff," but I'm more referring to MK's design and counterplay in this instance).

Also, CC'ing is still has a trade-off. Best case, you take damage, and you get a hit off. Worst case, they use a move that damages you and prevents you from getting your move off. But, as compensation, CC'ing usually gives very nice combo starters and kill options out of tilts and smash attacks that are normally harder/riskier to space.

I think that CC'ing is an interesting dynamic that forces your opponents to be aware of when they should take risks and use stronger moves. The problem is that not all characters have strong moves available that can be used reasonably against CC'ing. Ivysaur is a prime example. And this, I believe, tends to be more of a problem of that character's kit design than an overall game mechanic.

1) What.
2) Feels like a unnecessary layer of neutral. Could you imagine using any move immediately OOS? That is what you're sort of describing here minus getting hit with damage
3) This is where we divide. I feel like it's more of a system issue than a character specific one. It's a really sloppy defense option, like @ MLGF said earlier, as a system feature it's not universally fair throughout the cast.

Edit: btw, let's not derail too far. This discussion might need its own thread.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Aura, for 1, he meant that it rewards you for maintaining low percent by giving you a better defensive option.

As for @ Steel Kangaroo
First, you specified "crouching fastfaller". This is why I asked all those questions. Do you consider beating crouch cancel popping them up for a combo or start knocking them down. The former means a very different discussion, but the latter means the fastfaller bit irrelevant. Also, you mention dtilt letting them out of lag at the same time as you. That makes no sense. If they asdi down the second hit, they will have about 15 frames of advantage. However, if you space it well, it goes back to neutral. They aren't popped up or in hitstun so you get no followup. You spaced well, so they dont have enough frames to move towards you and hit you (it can create a trap where you choose to hold shield-> they grab, buffer spotdodge-> wait and punish, etc).

So while a lot of Ivy stuff doesn't open them up for a massive combo and grabs are risky, you can still maintain relative safety with good spacing. Oh, and if you call beating cc=popping them up, dtilt should give you enough frames to tech chase them in tech in place, miss tech, and tech in. If they tech away, take the positioning. Again its not perfect, but nobody mentions this and instead whines and complains, so I wanna get it out there.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Fox would be like ten times dumber without CC, you guys are playing with fire here

 

[TheGravyTrain]

And thus it continues, every conversations leads back to fox.

 

[Ripple]

Why would fox be even dumber without CC when he isn't even susceptible to it because of shine?

It's like saying falco gets more broken because you can't CC his dair... Well, you don't get to in the first place

 

[Scuba Steve]

Why would fox be even dumber without CC when he isn't even susceptible to it because of shine?

It's like saying falco gets more broken because you can't CC his dair... Well, you don't get to in the first place

It's almost like Fox has other good moves outside of shine. That said, have fun dealing with Fox's nair in neutral when you can't CC it ever. At least with CC, Fox is forced to respect CC as an option against stuff like weak nair and bair at low percent. Can you imagine how much worse the Fox-Peach match up would be if Peach couldn't CC sloppy approaches?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

It's almost like Fox has other good moves outside of shine. That said, have fun dealing with Fox's nair in neutral when you can't CC it ever. At least with CC, Fox is forced to respect CC as an option against stuff like weak nair and bair at low percent. Can you imagine how much worse the Fox-Peach match up would be if Peach couldn't CC sloppy approaches?

It's almost like we can't defend ourselves with Shield.. See how that works?
Gonna make a thread now, lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Uhh getting punished for getting hit makes sense when you play a game with scaling knockback and hitstun
If weak hits could never leave you at a disadvantage, then there's that much less reason to use strong slow committed tools and hence one less axis of interplay
Granted, smash's CC system is not a good way to go about it, but it's better to have this ASDI to cancel hitstun as-is rather than completely remove it
If I were to remake a version if smash with scaling knockback/hitstun, I would remove canceled hitstun from CC and just have very low hitstun at low percents for weak moves, such that you wouldn't NEED to CC, with everything scaling up a little more sharply from there. I'd also give a larger disparity between knockback/weight for fatties from light characters, meaning they get to punish opponents for hitting them for longer. Plus they'd also have moves of either similar speed and reach but much greater strength, or similar strength but greater reach or better speed. So their raw presence invalidates weaker moves from fast characters at low percents, meaning fast characters have to commit to laggier approaches to not get punished, meanwhile fatties can hit light characters with almost anything and not be punished, making the interplay ACTUALLY revolve around the disparity between speed and strength... The way it's supposed to be in smash, except it's not...

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Uhh getting punished for getting hit makes sense when you play a game with scaling knockback and hitstun
If weak hits could never leave you at a disadvantage, then there's that much less reason to use strong slow committed tools and hence one less axis of interplay
Granted, smash's CC system is not a good way to go about it, but it's better to have this ASDI to cancel hitstun as-is rather than completely remove it
If I were to remake a version if smash with scaling knockback/hitstun, I would remove canceled hitstun from CC and just have very low hitstun at low percents for weak moves, such that you wouldn't NEED to CC, with everything scaling up a little more sharply from there. I'd also give a larger disparity between knockback/weight for fatties from light characters, meaning they get to punish opponents for hitting them for longer. Plus they'd also have moves of either similar speed and reach but much greater strength, or similar strength but greater reach or better speed. So their raw presence invalidates weaker moves from fast characters at low percents, meaning fast characters have to commit to laggier approaches to not get punished, meanwhile fatties can hit light characters with almost anything and not be punished, making the interplay ACTUALLY revolve around the disparity between speed and strength... The way it's supposed to be in smash, except it's not...

This is really good. Made the thread btw.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is that the 200th thread about CCing? Count me out. Not interested in spoon feeding the mechanics and design benefits of CCing to players who are too uninformed or lazy to figure out why CC is here

 

[Certix_]

Here is a tier list I made. They are ordered within tiers.

S- They are very solid characters and have a high chance of winning a national.
A- Solid characters, but with some weaknesses. Need to put in more work or be more lucky in bracket to win a large event.
B- These characters have issues in competing with a sizeable portion of the cast. They are capable of winning, but it takes much more effort and knowledge. Or I simply have not seen that they have the potential to do great things.
C- Please make her a bit more interesting. I don't think she is actually that bad, but very few seem to want to main her.

I lack knowledge on some characters, so I theorized where they should go.
Discuss

 

[skellitorman]

Uhh getting punished for getting hit makes sense when you play a game with scaling knockback and hitstun
If weak hits could never leave you at a disadvantage, then there's that much less reason to use strong slow committed tools and hence one less axis of interplay
Granted, smash's CC system is not a good way to go about it, but it's better to have this ASDI to cancel hitstun as-is rather than completely remove it

Obviously it wouldn’t make sense for faster weak hits to maintain constant advantage allowing for continuous comboability with no reliable counterplay in a game with scaling knockback and hitstun. However that doesn’t mean that it makes sense to be punished for hitting the opponent especially since other reliable counterplay can exist. (For example: suppose characters can cancel nontumble hitstun frames into a tech roll instead of canceling it into landing frames). Characters should especially not be punished for successfully hitting an opponent with “medium strength” attacks that have significant commitment and no follow-ups such as tilts (in general).

Furthermore, to be able to be “counter hit” (hit before the startup of an attack) or whiff punished (hit during the recovery after missing an attack), only to ignore such a hit and be granted heavy punishes is absurd in concept. Obviously, you agree that the current system is flawed, but I think it’s important to say nonetheless.

It's almost like Fox has other good moves outside of shine. That said, have fun dealing with Fox's nair in neutral when you can't CC it ever. At least with CC, Fox is forced to respect CC as an option against stuff like weak nair and bair at low percent. Can you imagine how much worse the Fox-Peach match up would be if Peach couldn't CC sloppy approaches?

Character designs should be questioned when such a mechanic is seen as necessary to win MUs.

 

[redbeanjelly]

Here is a tier list I made. They are ordered within tiers.

S- They are very solid characters and have a high chance of winning a national.
A- Solid characters, but with some weaknesses. Need to put in more work or be more lucky in bracket to win a large event.
B- These characters have issues in competing with a sizeable portion of the cast. They are capable of winning, but it takes much more effort and knowledge. Or I simply have not seen that they have the potential to do great things.
C- Please make her a bit more interesting. I don't think she is actually that bad, but very few seem to want to main her.

I lack knowledge on some characters, so I theorized where they should go.
Discuss

Whether or not a character is arbitrarily "interesting" has nothing to do with where they fit on a tier list.

 

[Certix_]

I realize, I would put her between zelda and dorf and get rid of C-tier, but I wanted some humor in my post.

 

[robosteven]

Whether or not a character is arbitrarily "interesting" has nothing to do with where they fit on a tier list.

We should probably have a "good design" tier list thread so that we can properly organize characters by who actually needs to be changed.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

Okay I feel like my posts got taken out of perspective and ended in a huge debate about the merits/drawbacks of crouch canceling as a mechanic. While that's well and good, I was hoping to really center the discussion around Ivysaur and her weakness.

To respond to @ TheGravyTrain I am talking about weakness to CC-punish as Trek describes it. The fact is that right now a lot of characters could run up and crouch in Ivysaur's face at low %s and Ivysaur doesn't have a way to deal with that that's safe on hit. To me that's ridiculous, I can call out what the opponent is doing (crouching) and yet I can't punish. I brought up grab as a response to this because my understanding of PM and all smash games is the rock paper scissors of grab beats shield(or crouching in this case), attack beats grab, shield beats attack. Ivysaur right now is only playing with paper and scissors. It's important to mention this because even in situations where the opponent is crouching at a distance and I space dtilt, it's ridiculous how commital and spacing heavy dtilt is to not cause pop-up on a crouching GW at 80% Seriously, do yourself a favor and see the % it takes even light characters to actually lose anything to a sweetspotted dtilt. And this is in a situation where none of my others moves are truly safe on hit.

Again, I'm not saying Ivysaur is terrible because of this alone and there's absolutely no counterplay...but I just don't understand why Ivysaur needs this handicap...most other characters don't have it, and the ones who do have a regular grab so there's actual counterplay. It serves to make the matchups that Ivysaur has trouble with even more polarizing, as you have no real offensive options because if they're smart they can CC most of it and punish you for attacking, and you can't rely on being defensive against characters who can overwhelm your shield or wait for you to whiff your spacing moves and punish. And when you mixup your approaches (because you can't really pressure shields in any "true" sense and your approaches can be CC'd and punished) and try to grab them out of CC, you can be whiff punished really easily. In general, the characters who are best at whiff punishing Ivysaur's slow-ass grab (and the ones who Ivy NEEDS to grab to really get anything started) are the characters who ivysaur already struggles with in other ways, the foxes, wolfs, falcons, robs, etc.

So if anyone has a real suggestion for making those matchups somewhat manageable without making Ivysaur's matchups against heavies worse, I'd love to hear it. Instead I'm just getting a bunch of people who have probably never played Ivysaur in any real capacity telling me that I'm wrong. I would love Ivysaur to have legitimate approaches against fox, but let's be real, that probably wont happen because it'll make Ivy vs DK even worse. So how else do you compensate this character?

 

[Doctor Aids]

Here is a tier list I made. They are ordered within tiers.

S- They are very solid characters and have a high chance of winning a national.
A- Solid characters, but with some weaknesses. Need to put in more work or be more lucky in bracket to win a large event.
B- These characters have issues in competing with a sizeable portion of the cast. They are capable of winning, but it takes much more effort and knowledge. Or I simply have not seen that they have the potential to do great things.
C- Please make her a bit more interesting. I don't think she is actually that bad, but very few seem to want to main her.

I lack knowledge on some characters, so I theorized where they should go.
Discuss

I feel like Samus should be moved up to A tier. She seems to be a bit better than everyone in B tier and I would not say that she has issues competing with a sizable portion of the cast.

 

[eideeiit]

I realize, I would put her between zelda and dorf and get rid of C-tier, but I wanted some humor in my post.

Don't worry. There already was a lot.



jk. Mostly just G&W too high and Samus, Pika and maybe Mario too low, other than that it's not bad.

But really, people should really start specifying whether their lists are of perceived potential or current meta.

@ Steel Kangaroo Would normalizing Ivy's grab change her design dramatically? Or make her bland/unoriginal or whatever? Or mess up the DK MU and so on?

 

[robosteven]

@ Steel Kangaroo Would normalizing Ivy's grab change her design dramatically? Or make her bland/unoriginal or whatever? Or mess up the DK MU and so on?

Olimar's grab was slightly normalized last patch and his design is exactly the same as it was before.

****ing stupid.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Sheik is too low as well. She has a mostly even-to favourable matchup against everyone in the cast.

 

[robosteven]

Olimar's grab was slightly normalized last patch and his design is exactly the same as it was before.

****ing stupid.

Just to clarify my stance, I'm not saying that the change was a bad thing. It was a very good thing.

Grabs are one of many things that should probably be a no-brainer to normalize.

I'm not saying to make them all the same, I'm saying that tether grabs are dumb.

 

[_Chrome]

I strongly do not think Lucario is the best character in the game, barring the fact he is above Fox, Meta Knight, Marth and friends. Besides that, it's not bad besides some stuff such as Samus and Sheik being too low. I feel like Wario's a bit too high (he struggles against characters with ranged options) and Toon Link is probably too low. Nice list otherwise.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

I'm not saying to make them all the same, I'm saying that tether grabs are dumb.

I agree with this pretty much. I will add that other tether grab characters have some other oos option other than grab that is quick enough to deal with pressure, or are offensively oriented characters themselves (Lucas). Ivy to my knowledge is the only tether grab character with very little way to deal with unsafe shield pressure. Nair OoS is frame 9 I believe? The 2nd fastest option as Ivy OoS is shield release jab.


@ eideeiit I'm not sure what the repercussions for normalizing Ivy's grab would be, as it would affect every single matchup she has--Ivy would be able to actually shieldgrab, which tbh she can't do right now. That would be a HUGE buff...not to mention Ivy gets a lot off of her throws so I'm sure that all would have to be looked at. But the way I'm seeing it is this: Ivy has no real OoS option despite being a "defensively" leaning character (whatever the hell that means), so being able to grab unsafe pressure instead of nairing OoS would be a huge buff, as would the reduction in lag for missing a grab. My intuition is that Ivy with a standard grab would be really, really good, but I can't point to whether she would be OP or not.

As for unoriginal/boring, I think Ivysaur's grabs are not very "flavorful" as a character design aspect (save for maybe uthrow solar beam charge); I think most of Ivysaur's uniqueness as a character comes from her disjoints and projectiles. But again, that's something that I alone cannot decide.

 

[robosteven]

@ eideeiit I'm not sure what the repercussions for normalizing Ivy's grab would be, as it would affect every single matchup she has--Ivy would be able to actually shieldgrab, which tbh she can't do right now. That would be a HUGE buff...not to mention Ivy gets a lot off of her throws so I'm sure that all would have to be looked at. But the way I'm seeing it is this: Ivy has no real OoS option despite being a "defensively" leaning character (whatever the hell that means), so being able to grab unsafe pressure instead of nairing OoS would be a huge buff, as would the reduction in lag for missing a grab. My intuition is that Ivy with a standard grab would be really, really good, but I can't point to whether she would be OP or not.

Maybe normalize wasn't the right word.

Olimar's grab comes out on an earlier frame than before, but to compensate his grab now actually has endlag. Olimar starts most of his heavy-hitting followups off of throws, so it's pretty similar to Ivy.

At this point, tether grabs seem really bad to me. They get the extra reach, but they start up too late to handle shield pressure, and if you miss you get punished basically for free.

In respose to Ivy's grab, if the startup speed were decreased, the endlag would have to increase in turn to prevent it from being broken, and I think actually being able to respond to CC and/or shield pressure would be a pretty good compromise. Good distance and normal grab speed, but terrible punishability.

also punishability is not a word but you get what I mean

 

[TreK]

In respose to Ivy's grab, if the startup speed were decreased, the endlag would have to increase in turn to prevent it from being broken, and I think actually being able to respond to CC and/or shield pressure would be a pretty good compromise. Good distance and normal grab speed, but terrible punishability.

also punishability is not a word but you get what I mean

Her standing grab already ends on frame 50, as opposed to standard grabs which end around frame 30. Ivysaur players have learned not to JC grab for this very reason. Her dash grab ends on frame 30, but has reduced reach.
So that is already implemented actually lol.

 

[robosteven]

Her standing grab already ends on frame 50, as opposed to standard grabs which end around frame 30. Ivysaur players have learned not to JC grab for this very reason. Her dash grab ends on frame 30, but has reduced reach.
So that is already implemented actually lol.

never mind then lol

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

Her standing grab already ends on frame 50, as opposed to standard grabs which end around frame 30. Ivysaur players have learned not to JC grab for this very reason. Her dash grab ends on frame 30, but has reduced reach.
So that is already implemented actually lol.

Quoted for emphasis. Ivy's grab IS that bad. Her throws are dank, but her grab is awful.

 

[robosteven]

Quoted for emphasis. Ivy's grab IS that bad. Her throws are dank, but her grab is awful.

You mentioned this in a previous post, but I don't see giving Ivy a grab that she can use in response to CC and/or shield pressure as breaking or drastically changing the way she is. It'd just give her the ability to punish poor shield pressure and brainless CC.

In spite of the buff Oli got, he's still not great at dealing with shield pressure and, like Ivy, his main option is nair OoS, and even that has its limitations.

I don't know. I just like characters being able to do what comes off to me as basic things, like grabbing quickly in response to CC.

speaking of which I hate zelda but buff her ****ing grab please and thank you

 

[Tomaster]

Here is a tier list I made. They are ordered within tiers.

S- They are very solid characters and have a high chance of winning a national.
A- Solid characters, but with some weaknesses. Need to put in more work or be more lucky in bracket to win a large event.
B- These characters have issues in competing with a sizeable portion of the cast. They are capable of winning, but it takes much more effort and knowledge. Or I simply have not seen that they have the potential to do great things.
C- Please make her a bit more interesting. I don't think she is actually that bad, but very few seem to want to main her.

I lack knowledge on some characters, so I theorized where they should go.
Discuss

I think Marth could be S, he has a super good mu spread. Samus, sheik, pikachu and snake are also too low imo. And I'd put lucario and wario lower. Also I'd switch diddy and mewtwo.

 

[Steel Kangaroo]

In spite of the buff Oli got, he's still not great at dealing with shield pressure and, like Ivy, his main option is nair OoS, and even that has its limitations.

I don't know. I just like characters being able to do what comes off to me as basic things, like grabbing quickly in response to CC.

I'm inclined to agree...I don't see why characters like Olimar and Ivysaur don't "get" to shieldgrab. Never really heard any design rationale on that point.

 

[Saproling]

For ivy make dair come out on frame 9 from 11 and make the sour spot 10% bigger. Though in all honesty I feel it would be better to make her zoning better by decreasing start up on her disjoints by a few frames. Such as fair from 14 to 12 and bair from 9 to 8 along with potentially less lag on leaf.