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Tier List Speculation

shairn

Your favorite anime is bad.
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So... If a character's placing isn't decided by how good that character is against other characters, how do you plan on rating characters accurately? I don't see a reason why Samus and Ganon shouldn't be higher in that chart and Yoshi shouldn't be lower, taking into consideration the state of the meta when that was made.

Now, there's a weight to matchups. Obviously a 60:40 matchup against fox isn't worth the same as a 60:40 matchup against Roy in Melee. You have to keep that in mind when deciding placings.
 
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menotyou135

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So... If a character's placing isn't decided by how good that character is against other characters, how do you plan on rating characters accurately? I don't see a reason why Samus and Ganon shouldn't be higher in that chart and Yoshi shouldn't be lower, taking into consideration the state of the meta when that was made.

Now, there's a weight to matchups. Obviously a 60:40 matchup against fox isn't worth the same as a 60:40 matchup against Roy in Melee. You have to keep that in mind when deciding placings.
To be honest, I think it should be a combination of matchup weight and the weight of individuals making their own tier lists with more emphasis on matchup weight (maybe 70:30?). Furthemore, a tier list should only be decided by people who have a fair amount of experience with the game rather than popular crowd.

This would make it where if a character is very polarizing, they won't get as crazy of a placing as they would under a pure matchup based system.

The second part would make sure that the characters that are super easy to pick up and use aren't rated higher than they should be while the characters that are super hard to pick up and use aren't rated lower than they should be. D3's placing and matchups are an obvious example of this system being poor as the person above me stated. It also deals with characters that have playstyles that completely dominate low level play but aren't as significant in high level play. An example of this would be link's projectile spam with is incredibly effective at a low level and isn't as good against competent players. Because of this, we see link placed 4th on the tier list atm which he probably shouldn't be at.

That being said, the matchup based system is a good system, just not an ideal one. That's all I was trying to say.
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
But see I don't want that on Mario. Mario is criminal scum

I want a fully 100% split Mario and Doc. Put Upb cancel on just Doc. I want them to do all of this, to avoid giving Mario anymore buffs
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
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hinichii
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But see I don't want that on Mario. Mario is criminal scum

I want a fully 100% split Mario and Doc. Put Upb cancel on just Doc. I want them to do all of this, to avoid giving Mario anymore buffs
Mario will rule you, and your feable minded scene
Your life is over
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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It's not that much work to fill out the characters you're familiar with. There's still some really wonky placements, but overall this is already looking vastly better than most tier lists I've seen, and orders of magnitude better than the CT one.
 
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D

Deleted member

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brb voting so that toonlink loses every mu and is the worst character in the game
 

DMG

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DMG#931
>Bowser so heavy
>Loses 4/5ths of this weight whenever he jumps

Smash plz
 

WIZRD.Pro

Smash Apprentice
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So I guess answering truthfully for the betterment of Smash is out of the question...
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
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Well imagine a melee list where a hypothetical character had 100:0 matchup against all characters below ice climbers and a 0:100 matchup against all characters ice climbers and above. When the match starts against any of the top tiers he just automatically SDs 4 times without any control and when he is against mid-bottom tiers the other character automatically SDs 4 times without any control.

Under this system, that character's matchup rating would be about 69%. Fox's matchup rating (at least according to SSBwiki) is about 68%. That means that even though said hypothetical character would be physically incapable of winning against any of the characters that the vast majority of people play in tournaments (and the others could just switch), he would be number 1 on the tier list, when in reality, such a character would be the worst character in the game.

Now obviously this is a hypothetical taking things to extremes but in a realistic setting, a character could move up or down several spots based off of polarizing matchups.

To further illustrate this point, look at the matchup averages on the matchup chart on SSBwiki:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchups_(SSBM)

Under this, Ganon and Samus should both be higher and Yoshi should be grouped with bowser and kirby, and those matchup averages are rounded. If you don't round them, then a lot of characters move around one or two places.

I know this chart is outdated, but it is simply being used to illustrate a point.

EDIT: Also that chart was started yesterday so it isn't really stable at the moment. For example, since the first time I looked at it around 3 hours ago, jigglypuff has moved up one, Link has moved from 6th to 4th, Sonic has moved to 10th from 11th, (and the inverse to marth), Falco dropped from 4th to 5th, and Donkey Kong rose a spot or two (not entirely sure).
Ness above Ike...
hah hah hah... NO
 

WIZRD.Pro

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Okay but I don't see anyone else working with others to build a good tier list.

(Currently, CT hasn't updated their list in a while)
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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That list is still bad. After I read m2 first, no point cause pit and link some how better than fox.
 
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trash?

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trick room sounds both neat as hell on singles, and game-destroyingly good on doubles. imagine trick room with someone like zelda, god help us all
 
D

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luigi's final smash already turns the stage into a hotboxed honda civic, why not just make it like that
 

Jacob29

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my favourite thing about that Tier List is how (or at least when I last checked) most of the votes for Bowser v Falco were like 8:2 Falco favoured.
 

menotyou135

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That list is still bad. After I read m2 first, no point cause pit and link some how better than fox.
The reason this is happening is probably because a lot of the more inexperienced Fox players don't realize how hard it is to play against Fox so they think their matchups are more even than they really are. I've heard more than one fox player say that fox has no advantageous matchups in PM (this is an extreme case of course), and several foxes believe that matches that are actually even are disadvantageous to fox because they are used to the advantage of fox being so dominate.
 
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Foo

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Oh godz yhesh
One of our locals is the king of that
100% consistency out of shield it's like it's as easy as throwing a pill
then I try and have no idea how someone could do it even once

Give Mario that in PM and make it easier? PLZ?
Let's give it intangibility too!
 
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