Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

Now you know what it feels like to have a dair that takes skill to use instead of mashing down a

Iunno I play Marth

 

[1FD]

Plateprop
That's like saying dota BKB takes no skill to use or mvc DHCs take no skill to use or fox nairs take no skill to use.
Sure it will automatically do something because it's and auto-good thing if used at all.
But to use it IDEALLY or even properly there is a HUGE window of variation and flexibility that can really define a noob using it from a good player using it.
Don't mistake things like wrath of god or jiggs bair gimps or doom missiles like they're easy to use just because you can easily use them to do SOMETHING.
I just talked about dota and umvc so im using examples here lol

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'm with Umbreon on this one.

Fireballs >>>>>>>>> Lasers
Mario's combo game > Flaco's
Mario's harder to combo
Mario's recovery > flaco's

Mario can poke with his dair, falco has to commit. Every character was designed to beat Falco (and kinda sucks at it b/c he's still busted), but Mario was designed to beat every character. Except mewtwo lololol

Fireballs are not that much better than lasers (at least in combination with the specific characters), mainly because of the laser transcendence and the higher speed.
Well the other points are true, although Mario isn't beating everyone besides Mewtwo.

The thing is Mario has trouble approaching and while the fireball is often enough in the neutral game, he has a very hard time in other matchups. I guess Melee spacies have a slightly advantageous matchup against him.

You forgot Marth, stupid head.

About Marth, the structure of that matchup is so compley even posters like Umbreon changed their opinion multiple times about it.
It behaves similar to the Marth v Peach in Melee, with the structural difference mainly determined by differences between turnips and fireballs and Mario's mobility which is better than Peach's.
While Marth can clank with fireballs, Mario can force setups where that would get punished. The vast amount of options on both sides how to perform the details in the neutral game, their similarity in how many options they beat and get beaten by and the similar mobility turns me away from giving Marth a clear advantage. Judging that particular matchup isn't that easy, I would give Mario some advantage but I couldn't refute arguments to judge it as equal either.

 

[Bazkip]

Ike is still balanced. Might drop a bit now that his Walljumps are bing taken away though

Wait, that's happening? Why?

 

[Deleted member]

You forgot Marth, stupid head.

mario beats marth pretty solidly. all marth has is fair and maybe grab at 0 if your DI is bad. mario basically just has to not lose to fair in neutral and it's like strictly in his favor after that.

mario vs falco for a comparison is that like mario has a better grab game, better combos (on good DI, on bad DI they're about the same), multiple conversions (falco has shine basically or dair shine), better projectile, better recovery, better combo weight, bettr CC game, marios moves have more priority, more damage, more kill power, win trades more, don't lose to the new shield mechanics as hard, stun longer, mario can reliably kill out of a throw which is a BIG deal, mario has better CP options. falco's laser was nerfed for damage so much that it's usually not worth it to laser spam because you give up too much control in doing so (fox is the same way) so lasers aren't the panacea that they were in melee which mario's fireballs definitely are. then in tournament play mario has way better CP options, is way harder to CP against, and doesn't have nearly as many MUs to worry about because the punishment game is pretty much always skewed in his favor across the cast. the only thing really holding mario back are other blatantly OP characters that also need to be addressed. falco might have "advantages" over mario or whatever like shine but overall if you just want to play smash you're better off just picking mario.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If you think mario v Marth is even close to 50:50 go ahead and call Marth a low tier now. So easy for Marth to win, you'd be silly to think otherwise.

 

[shairn]

Observe, the mario player in its natural habitat

EDIT: More substantially, I think you should try playing the matchup from Marth's side to properly understand how difficult and frustrating it is. The lag from fireballs is too short to reliably approach Mario without getting punished, which means that by the time you get to Mario you've eaten at least 30% in damage and only get one shot at starting a combo because Mario's going to combo the crap out of you right back. To add insult to injury, Mario can cape all but the lowest of sweetspot upB's. And then Marth has to put in ten times the effort just to maybe edgeguard Mario, possibly losing a stock instead if he messes up.

 

[steelguttey]

he also played olimar so i understand his hatred for marth

 

[1FD]

all marth has is fair and maybe grab

That's all Marth EVER had against ANYONE (maybe dtilt too (pivot dtilt if ur stupidweirdlikenausicaa))
lol

Falco gets free reflect on all projectiles without lag from shine (really good in a projectile-heavy game), and the fastest release and control/non-committing projectile in the game to top it off (melee stuff continued and not duplicated in PM even by fireballs).

Sure he's not OP from the jank in pm like Sonic/being one of the few janks in the game like he was in Melee... or OP from free like Mario/Pit anymore since this isn't melee loaded with no-option characters against him.

But he's nothing like Mario even when smart people are putting him in the same examples

Fireballs aren't threatening, everyone from Mario to Falco throws these projectiles to keep you out of positions that are threatening to THEM..

Get rid of some FREENESS of Pit/Mario and some JANKNESS of Sonic/Mewtwo
And the JANK AND FREE combo that is FLACO will shine again.

EDIT: More substantially, I think you should try playing the matchup from Marth's side to properly understand how difficult and frustrating it is. The lag from fireballs is too short to reliably approach Mario without getting punished, which means that by the time you get to Mario you've eaten at least 30% in damage and only get one shot at starting a combo because Mario's going to combo the crap out of you right back. To add insult to injury, Mario can cape all but the lowest of sweetspot upB's. And then Marth has to put in ten times the effort just to maybe edgeguard Mario, possibly losing a stock instead if he messes up.

This sounds JUST LIKE AGAINST FALCO
The difference isn't that Mario is harder to combo or edgeguard or anything. Sure that's a thing, but the real difference is in 1 thing.

It's really about how Mario is way better defensively when he's on offense (AKA getting a chance to beating the crap out of Marth out of neutral) than Falco because he can do so much more off a way bigger variety of things that break neutral including one special baby that makes Falco look like trash since it's so good and free when Falcos totally isn't.
Grabs
When a Grab game makes MARTH look like he has an 'average' grab game, but the character is already REALLY solid (LIKE FLACO) you know it's broke.
If Mario was less SOLID elsewhere (LIKE MARTH) then sure, his grab would be totally fine.
But nooooo instead of being solid everywhere, he's got a Marth grab game with a Falco lockdown game with a Pit offstage game and a Peach hardhitbox game.
Ain't no falco clone
He's a solid ball of immakillyouanywhereanytime
He's just not jank enough to break the game (make you have to play a weird smash-mini-game like Sonic/Lucas/Mewtwo) because all of that 'stuff' is pretty standard universal smash 'stuff'

 

[GP&B]

Wait, that's happening? Why?

I'm also wondering this. I didn't even think it was an issue. I could understand dropping it to one because his survivability on YI:B and GHZ is incredibly high, but I feel the walljump is rather important for having a prolonged presence offstage.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It's much easier on the Marth side. And you don't have to work as hard ether.

EDIT...mario has pit off stage game?? No

 

[Une]

who thought this was okay?

Probably the same guys that designed Mewtwo

 

[Deleted member]

If you think mario v Marth is even close to 50:50 go ahead and call Marth a low tier now. So easy for Marth to win, you'd be silly to think otherwise.

I've been saying that Marth is mediocre for at least since APEX 2013. Marth kinda sucks in PM, which is fine honestly because most of the cast sucks by proxy. As soon as the top characters are toned down a bit Marth should be fine, but right now yeah I'd say he's like mid or low tier.

That's all Marth EVER had against ANYONE (maybe dtilt too (pivot dtilt if ur stupidweirdlikenausicaa))

But he's nothing like Mario even when smart people are putting him in the same examples

Marth has dashdance which is negated by fireballs, disjointed moves which are negated by Mario matching his range somehow outside of fair, excellent edge guards which Mario negates with his incredible recovery, and dial-a-combo which mario negates with basic combo DI since his weight is perfect to get hit like twice and get out. Marth brutally murders any characters he can still roll his melee version's A-Game on like Wario, Marth never had many tools but the ones he had were so ridiculously strong that it never mattered. The transfer to PM made those tools a good bit weaker, which is fine because dashdance is blatantly too good in melee and it's the cornerstone of his gameplay, but Mario shuts down everything but fair rather easily. And having one good thing vs Mario isn't going to cut it because Mario is basically Good Things: The Character.

And I never said that Falco and Mario are anything alike, simply that my opinion on Falco is that he's worse than Mario so you should just play Mario. Falco is still blatantly top 10 but who cares when you can just pick an easier character that's better at everything?

It's much easier on the Marth side. And you don't have to work as hard ether.

Well you show me a Marth player and I will beat them with Mario and I don't play Mario. And I've already played PP and m2k and I can't play myself so good luck finding a good marth.

 

[PlateProp]

Someone drag Ken out of retirement again or something

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I've been saying that Marth is mediocre for at least since APEX 2013. Marth kinda sucks in PM, which is fine honestly because most of the cast sucks by proxy. As soon as the top characters are toned down a bit Marth should be fine, but right now yeah I'd say he's like mid or low tier.



Marth has dashdance which is negated by fireballs, disjointed moves which are negated by Mario matching his range somehow outside of fair, excellent edge guards which Mario negates with his incredible recovery, and dial-a-combo which mario negates with basic combo DI since his weight is perfect to get hit like twice and get out. Marth brutally murders any characters he can still roll his melee version's A-Game on like Wario, Marth never had many tools but the ones he had were so ridiculously strong that it never mattered. The transfer to PM made those tools a good bit weaker, which is fine because dashdance is blatantly too good in melee and it's the cornerstone of his gameplay, but Mario shuts down everything but fair rather easily. And having one good thing vs Mario isn't going to cut it because Mario is basically Good Things: The Character.

And I never said that Falco and Mario are anything alike, simply that my opinion on Falco is that he's worse than Mario so you should just play Mario. Falco is still blatantly top 10 but who cares when you can just pick an easier character that's better at everything?



Well you show me a Marth player and I will beat them with Mario and I don't play Mario. And I've already played PP and m2k and I can't play myself so good luck finding a good marth.

lmao get called out Mario players. Holy **** you guys just got ****ing wrecked

 

[1FD]

I've been saying that Marth is mediocre for at least since APEX 2013. Marth kinda sucks in PM, which is fine honestly because most of the cast sucks by proxy. As soon as the top characters are toned down a bit Marth should be fine, but right now yeah I'd say he's like mid or low tier.



Marth has dashdance which is negated by fireballs, disjointed moves which are negated by Mario matching his range somehow outside of fair, excellent edge guards which Mario negates with his incredible recovery, and dial-a-combo which mario negates with basic combo DI since his weight is perfect to get hit like twice and get out. Marth brutally murders any characters he can still roll his melee version's A-Game on like Wario, Marth never had many tools but the ones he had were so ridiculously strong that it never mattered. The transfer to PM made those tools a good bit weaker, which is fine because dashdance is blatantly too good in melee and it's the cornerstone of his gameplay, but Mario shuts down everything but fair rather easily. And having one good thing vs Mario isn't going to cut it because Mario is basically Good Things: The Character.

And I never said that Falco and Mario are anything alike, simply that my opinion on Falco is that he's worse than Mario so you should just play Mario. Falco is still blatantly top 10 but who cares when you can just pick an easier character that's better at everything?

You said Marth was still top 10 early in 3.0, btw. We had a convo about it around the time I signed onto the forums. Wasn't the same discussion as our Mario vs Marth one but I called Marth low-tier and you said he couldn't be any worse than 15th and that even that was pushing it.

I know that doesn't really matter (I just remember these things cause you're one of my fave posters to chat with/lurked before), but this just makes me think about how I don't doubt in due time you'll see Falco differently too. You're smart like that (hence you make sense when you talk about Mario and Marth now for example).
As you said, there's just too much OP **** floating around in PM right now. I don't think Falco can keep up with it, despite being a lot better than Marth at it.

Also (but different topic) I don't think Wario loses to Marth hard either. He's like a fast and unkillable Jiggs, who cares if he doesn't have Bair to make it hard on Marth, he's got the speed and touch of deaths and ways of getting in to make up for it more than enough.
Just my thoughts, but that's something I'm not AS certain about as I was with Mario vs him or where Falco stands. Still, for now Wario = Marth will be my 'probs gonna change but for now it won't' perspective.

EDIT...mario has pit off stage game?? No

He doesn't have Marth dd grab game either. That was all just examples that he's not that far off from other character's best traits in many areas.
Also yeah Marth doesn't have to work as 'hard' since his game is so simple. Hence a lot of people like playing him outside their primary stuff. From PP to scrubs. Simple game makes it refreshing after playing the tough-to-do-things-complicated characters for sure.

 

[Deleted member]

? I'm pretty consistent and that doesn't sound like anything I'd say. Like I read my own posts from like 2008 or 2009 sometimes and I think wow I was ****ing brilliant in 2008 so I tend to hold the same opinions literally for years. I'd like you to find a post where I said anything like that and it wasn't blatant sarcasm.

imo wario's worst MU is marth, but hey i'm not a wario player.

 

[steelguttey]

umbreon do you look at papers of you in preschool writing the abc's and think "wow is was ****ing brilliant"

 

[1FD]

You know your stuff yeah. Do you REALLY want me to dig through that stuff? I have like 300 posts since then. LOL
I could if you REALLY want to. I might even find that discussion about Marth > Mario bros in the process.
Could be fun actually, but maybe later.

I've seen things like reflex vs sethlon play the matchup and it was pretty terrible/06-meta since I think reflex just didn't really have the melee-exp to do anything but run into fairs like old-jiggs style. And since then have yet to see it much other than that, hence I don't doubt I'm totally wrong on it.
From what I HAVE seen/do know, Marth-like issues are kind of more the 'early-meta' of Wario game, and it'll be more like TL issues that really mess him up (same weaknesses as Peach type of thing, but slightly off/Peach has a harder time with Marth than Wario even)

 

[PlateProp]

I know how to make Marth top tier!

Remove sword, add fireballs, and Falco's dair!

 

[JOE!]

Dont forget Woop + Pit's bull**** glide that keeps his jumps and can immediatley aerial out of because **** the other gliders

 

[Ripple]

i think marth is in the 15-20 range. i think marth is overrated but in the bottom half of the cast is just crazy imo

searching for posts is so easy, you should learn how to do it

 

[shairn]

Evidence.zip

 

[1FD]

Dont forget Woop + Pit's bull**** glide that keeps his jumps and can immediatley aerial out of because **** the other gliders

Pls return of the Zard infinite gliding Pls
Or at least a FEW times like COMON!!!

Wtf I tried searching but remembered it was actually a discussion with nausicaa and I just lurked it then talked to nausicaa about it.
No wonder I couldn't find anything!
PS Seriously I have a super-hax memory.
It's rare for it to falter but I failed this one.
I feel weird, that's like SO rare for me.
FML I'm so weirded out that I mis-remembered something this is weird.

But yeah here's the skype convo

[10:59:59 PM] SUPERBALL: K Imma paste a chunk of this

I need to save more of these skype convos too they're juicy (usually not about things like changes or even tiers though, so donno where I'd put them lol)


Also another discussion going on around ^that time in the forums was about Luigi and Pika viability
And I think they're both top 10-15
Pika at BEST 3rd (above everyone but Sonic/Lucas probs) and Luigi best about 5th (below Mewtwo/Pit/maybe MK or Pika or something too)
At worst they're both like 15th, AT WORST
*I'm crazy
*but I'm familiarized with bamsey so that makes sense a bit

 

[Deleted member]

umbreon do you look at papers of you in preschool writing the abc's and think "wow is was ****ing brilliant"

i skipped preschool because its a waste of time and money

good **** ripple

edit: 15-20 out of 41 range is still low tier when 6-8 of the characters skew the viability so hard

 

[SpiderMad]

 

[Zimflare]

Sheik too good for tiers.

 

[shairn]

I can't say I agree with Marth being above Ivy, or Roy and Ike being so low.

 

[1FD]

Luigi and Pika there just to smite me?!??!?!?
HOW DARE YOU!
LOL












supahquick

with edits because way too quick to make sense to me


edit again
Sharin I think Ike struggles in the sense that he's oddly glass-cannon
If he gets in trouble, he's in a LOT of trouble
If he gets the opponent in trouble, they're in a LOT of trouble
But I think most characters can avoid getting in trouble too much.
Almost like every character can play around his stuff enough to make him have a hard time getting that position/hit he needs. Yet at the same time a better player will always win with him because he's got enough to make stuff work off a quick enough adaption and catch the player before THEY can adapt to Ike stuff.
Hence I think he's a broken as **** CP character, but not universally strong enough to compete unless he's got good CP's to switch off of.
Beast character though. (I play him as a hard CP character in combo with Kirby (I think Kirby is in a similar boat to Ike this way), along side my Wolf + Mario core, and it does GREAT against players a LOT better than me simply because of him being an option)
edit again ^That goes for most of those lower tier characters basically. The bottom 4 rows basically, but then the last row is kind of hurting with hard CPs against them literally everywhere/IC's are just broken. LOL
Dedede the best though.

 

[SpiderMad]

So you are Bamesy then or what?

@ shairn Who do you have higher Roy or Ike

 

[shairn]

I think Ike should be higher than Roy, but both are definitely on Marth's level if not higher in my opinion.

 

[1FD]

So you are Bamesy then or what?

@ shairn Who do you have higher Roy or Ike

edit correction it's more like I'm just at his place whenever i can be. LOL
I have access to everything from his writings to internet links to whatever, and get see him a bit when he's here. So I get the good scoop of stuff to relay to forums + agree with most of what he says (I can't disagree after the **** him and Tenki say it's just gold in my earballs).
He was home for like 1 hour today and might come back Weds. So I'm fresh on that stuff too.
Are my posts that good now or what?
During my search for old umberon discussion I noticed I used caps on like EVERY SECOND WORD.
Mahgawd I'm better at this.
OH BTW he said he's gonna maybe do dat threads sometime again
just a btw cause I thought someone would want to know but yeah @GeZ we talked with you from different rooms at the same time/threesomebabyyeah

oh god my posts were so terrible

INSTANT DOUBLE SEX KICK NAIR
1 FRAME RELEASE
LAST FOREVER WITH 2 HITS
DO IT
AERIAL SIDE-B LEADING INTO INSTANT NAIR 2 HIT COMBOS PLZ

I think Ike should be higher than Roy, but both are definitely on Marth's level if not higher in my opinion.

Totally likely and agreeable
When Ike gets his cp player+character matchup combo right he's a bigger monster than marth in marths ideal matchups, so could be just from having fewer but BETTER cp type situations.
oh also, I think Roy is more solid than both of them, so would consider him a tier higher just because he doesn't get ultra-screwed by anything and just loses to people having better things in areas (like a better neutral rather than a neutral he can't deal with at all type of thing)

 

[Zimflare]

Top three are pit, sonic, and m2 in that order imo

 

[1FD]

Pit is combo food for lots of peeps around the cast and can't handle hyper speeds or hyper pressure but he's broken anyway

0.02cents

 

[SpiderMad]

Do you guys have contact with ICG too?

What MUs are you CP'ing with Ike? @ 1FD

 

[mimgrim]

Been a while since I've posted, been lurking though, so have a tier list from me.

No ordering in the lines and the bigger gaps between the lines the bigger the differences between the lines.













:L

 

[1FD]

@ SpiderMad What's ICG?

Definitely NOT lucas or zss LOL

Lets see Imma think to make a good answer.
I like fighting on wall stages of course.

1 is against characters that don't need to be locked down (got mario for that) because that sucks as Ike if the player knows how to properly camp Ike with a character that can get away.

It's not the speed or range that hurts me but when they can basically just cover themselves while threatening me all the time. I don't know if other Ike's have the same issue (I should read Ike forums maybe) but I just don't feel good playing against someone who basically is challenging me at ALL TIMES while I can't get them off OR get to them.
Pit or Falco for example can cover themselves too well while being campy while pressure me at the same time in a way I just can't get room to play. If they try to straight camp me it's ok, or straight pressure me it's ok, it's when they're in my face but at a spot I don't want to be and can't get out of there that's annoying. Just like Lucas/ZSS but less speed movement and more hard hitboxes I can't trade with well.
Sometimes it's ok but I need to get better before I can handle that I think. It's probalby ok from what I see but I just don't like it because I can't get through it/have other characters who can handle them fine.
Like I don't mind Mario or Sheik (play her in melee) nearly as much but it's probably just because I'm playing those characters. Yet that SHOULD be the same deal as Pit/Falco too.
I donno, preference maybe.

2 I only play him if they screw up my wolf too since I love Wolf > everyone
Fatties that are ALSO fast give me trouble with Wolf basically. Not fast like movement but fast like I hate their face but too scary to hit them.
So basically peach/wario/zard/rob/snake type characters who might be able to cover themselves but I can out speed and control the pace of the match against them. So I will for SURE use Ike a lot there.
Ike in control = good stuff.

Against Samus and Yoshi only sometimes but I think that's player dependent and I don't know the match up very well. Seems ok but probably only because I've only played better players and might be making me bias (as if I'd do better if I was as good as them)
Haven't tried against other fatties like ddd or dk or whatever but I don't think their grab games are something Ike will be too crushed by but I like mario/wolf/kirby against a lot of these -maybe- characters anyway.

3 I like him against basically anyone else that can't camp him with basic speed while still being able to hit me quickly/defend quickly (lucas/zss are 2 I play against a lot and can't stand it BECAUSE I CAN'T CATCH THEM WITHOUT DYING so I rarely use Ike against the best locals unless they go off their mains too)
So against fast characters it's > If I can hit them before they hit me SOMEHOW/trade with them. Squirt/Fox/Sonic/Wolf are ok because I can clip them even though it's hard, it feels at least possible a lot of the time off a hard read or something. Lucas/zss don't seem to do things that really matter if Ike hard reads them, just by virtue of the places they want to go (away from Ike in certain directions he can't punish anyway), if that makes sense.

4 I like him against people like Ivy/TL because they're not fast enough to camp hard WHILE BEING SAFE enough with Ike's range and QD options/etc, where someone like Zelda/Samus/Link have enough to cover themselves and always pressure me with their camping/they don't leave opponenings/don't need to RUN to do it. It's just a wall of camp that I can't trade unlike through an Ivy Bair even. Just zairs to the face and disjoints and lasting attacks that make so much room to make more room for projectiles for more room and if I get close I just get knocked away and die before I can reach them and SCREW ALL THAT.
Ivy/TL have a slow/unpressuring camp game so it's aight to handle. It's the kind of camp game that screws Wolf over because he has to take risks/not play an attrition game when he gets his hits, not Ike though. Kirby can't handle it very well either, but solar beam is too fun to pass up sometimes.

Screw Diddy/Mario sometimes too but again I can at least HIT them so it's not AS bad.

4 I like him against Roy/GW type characters because they can't cover themselves/can't camp Ike very well but don't pressure Ike so much that he can't get away to a position where Ike has room to work the way Pit/Falco pressure him while being safe.
MK is ok too I think but I haven't played a good one with Ike so maybe it's terrible lol.
Fast characters who can't cover themselves are fine because I can catch people if they're camping him with JUST evasion. If I can clip someone then it's aight by me, but if it's someone evasive AND can cover themselves, then it gets hard. Same deal basically.

It probs has a lot more to do with player too but I can't xplain that **** at all lol

Also edit
I think against like Roy/DK/etc it's also because I don't care how auto/good a character can punish Ike since he doesn't really have much for getoffme stuff anyway, and even **** combos work well on him. Having a punish game as your BEST thing (Falcon/Mario/etc fit in here too) doesn't make things any WORSE for Ike compared to how it can be KEY against other characters, since they could have TRASH punish games and it would STILL work JUST as well against Ike. LOL
M2/Luigi/etc could have 50% WORSE punish games and it wouldn't be any worse them/better for Ike since their punish games are so over-needed against a defenseless slow character like Ike (Ganon is worse) anyway.

tl;dr ONLY on stages with good walls + not a bunch of really hard-to-reach platforms. GHZ da bess probs.
Main Rule = Not against characters who can control Ike's movement/options WHILE evading him.
If I can hit them on a read due to them being slow to cover themselves with something, or if I can catch up to them and get through their hitboxes while they run/camp > I might play him.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Does the sorting into different rows imply that they are unordered in their specific row, that the difference between two rows is especially big or that it separates them by a certain subjective value of character strength?

 

[Frost | Odds]

I think Ike should be higher than Roy, but both are definitely on Marth's level if not higher in my opinion.

You cannot possibly be serious. This might be the wrongest, most obviously, wrongly wrong opinion I've ever read. (But not really. It's a sort of understandable mistake)

Your top 5 are flawless. But, uh,

wolf above Falco? Above Link?
Kirby above Marth, Ivy, ZSS, CF, DK... serious?
Bowser above ganon?

...Pass the bong, pls. I want some of that.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Wait, that's happening? Why?

I'm also wondering this. I didn't even think it was an issue. I could understand dropping it to one because his survivability on YI:B and GHZ is incredibly high, but I feel the walljump is rather important for having a prolonged presence offstage.

Unless the pm dev team changed their stance on the issue recently, no his wall jumps won't be completely removed. Though being reduced to one is possible, but nothing at this point is set in stone. So just take what hear with a grain of salt.