D
Deleted member
Guest
fox up b and side b into up air is sooooooo painful. If you don't beat his recovery you either die or take a lot of % from that opening
like whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
like whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Yeah it's really dumb. I really don't think Fox players will complain if that gets fixed since neither are primarily used as offensive options.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Oh, they will complain
Because maylay
Because maylay
Life
Smash Hero
I always thought that if Fox were to be nerfed, it should be nerfs to his kill moves, because people have ludicrous amounts of muscle memory built up for the technical things.
Then again, removing the Sakurai combo would probably not cause a riot either.
Then again, removing the Sakurai combo would probably not cause a riot either.
Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
I'd say increasing knockback growth on upthrow so upthrow -> UAir is a little harder to hit and decreasing the knockback of Usmash should do nicely.
i've always thought just nerf spacies defensive options (give them worse tech rolls for sure, maybe worse rolls). that way you can still go ham with really good offensive stats, or try to stay open in the neutral (or just outright control it), but you don't get the luxury of good options all the time (feel falcon's pain!).
Well spacies rolls can be made a bit slower, but I definitely don't want them to be lowered to Falcon level lol. I'd actually want to buff Falcon's roll but that isn't my call.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Lol. What is this? Why are we rehashing this pattern? It's awful.
Lets break this down:
1. Major event happens
2. Someone wins, usually someone we didn't expect.
3. Winning character/second place character declared too strong.
4. Someone brings up Fox. Secondary argument begins.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4.
Seriously, are we League of Legends or something? It's pitiful how accustomed to this pattern we've become, especially since the PMBR doesn't give two craps about our complaints. Lets just say nice job to the guys who did well and move on. They deserve that respect.
Lets break this down:
1. Major event happens
2. Someone wins, usually someone we didn't expect.
3. Winning character/second place character declared too strong.
4. Someone brings up Fox. Secondary argument begins.
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4.
Seriously, are we League of Legends or something? It's pitiful how accustomed to this pattern we've become, especially since the PMBR doesn't give two craps about our complaints. Lets just say nice job to the guys who did well and move on. They deserve that respect.
D
Deleted member
Guest
and yknow how we could fix this?
by nerfing fox
by nerfing fox
Sometimes people can create decent and respectable conversations and sometimes they bring up good points. Some of these are in the forms of "Well maybe x character needs some nerfs," and "no he doesn't need nerfs and here's why." I'd rather have a moderated conversation than just silencing out completely so people who want to have a rational conversation can't express their opinions. Like it or not, PM isn't perfect and their will always inevitably be conversations about balance. Instead of trying to silence everyone's opinions, why don't you respond to someone who demands nerfs and explain why their ideas won't work? It creates a good conversation and in the end both parties benefit from learning more about the characters.
There are certainly things that can be nerfed on Fox that frankly most people wouldn't mind, and I wanted to express that. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it's not derogatory or rude.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Um why are we wanting to nerf spacies more? I may be biased, but my Fox is bad so idc lol. But everyone can wreck Fox in this game off a grab, and most characters have a tilt that really good at juggling spacies. Spacies no longer have their waveshine, invincible frame 1 shine, up throw up air doesn't work too well with Fox anymore, Falco's Pillar Combos aren't as effective, as more floaties are viable in this game, most moves in this game are made to beat spacies' recoveries, spacies now have MK as competition for a fast character with an incredible neutral game (MK's nair is incredible) better recovery and has disjointed, transcendent hitboxes, etc. Spacies don't really need more nerfs. Just get better at the game.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
All these things I underlined
And bolded
And italicized
See them? They are all wrong, or are no different from how things work in Melee.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
How am I wrong? Fox's up throw up air doesn't work as well as it did in Melee. Waveshine>waveshine isn't guaranteed like Melee. They increased the kb of waveshine remember? Floaties=fly higher up from Shine, so Pillar Combos are less effective to an extent.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
I can't silence anyone, only voice my concerns for a community that I believe is prone to snap judgements and short-sightedness. I'm growing weary of the pattern I outlined, so I decided to say something about it. Seeing the skill players such as Emukiller and Wizzrobe have exhibited in order to upset the status quo be marginalized by spectators who believe the X character somehow compensated for a theoretical skill gap between them and X top Melee player is disappointing.
I still stand by my statement that Pit's arrows have too much stun/reward considering how fast and versatile they are.
TheDuckChris
Smash Cadet
I honestly think people just don't have much experience with the sonic matchup, and Wizz played really well to get to that point. Also as good as M2K is he still has a good amount to learn with mewtwo, and I shudder for what will happen when he does. Neat to see some different characters doing well, Bowser for one.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
My complaint is that in a game full of 39+ characters (I can't count right now), it's okay to just have an option like CP-ing a character with significant predecessor metagame advancement to fall back on to rather than developing another character outright. From a spectator's point of view, it's boring, safe, and extremely predictable (under the reasoning that we already see enough Fox in Melee, but at least they don't have an excuse). From a metagame perspective, it's toxic because instead of developing and exposing the new dynamic of characters to each other at the current apex of the players' knowledge of the game, we're treated to the same old Fox matchup made only slightly different because a PM character is involved. To me, it's not about nerfing Fox but wanting to completely remove him. I know there would be tremendous backlash, but there's times where I wish PM's cast would develop independently from the existence of Melee's metagame (not necessarily its physics, which are a critical component).
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Zx2963
Smash Journeyman
Why not buff ever character like pre-2.6 Ike and Sonic. Then everyone is high tier :3
D
Deleted member
Guest
Making everyone a 2.5 sonic is simply bad game design.
Jellyfish4102
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2013
- Messages
- 338
- NNID
- jellyfish
Changes I'd make to the game.
1 Nerf suicide kills. I don't think they should be completely removed but be read based. For example shortening the range of Kirby's swallow would make it harder to pull off.
2 Nerf kill throws. Both Lucas and Mewtwo have good kill options outside of up throw so I'd increase the percent at which their throws kill by 20%.
3 Nerf the hit stun of some projectiles. Pit's arrows and Link's boomerang are the biggest offenders.
1 Nerf suicide kills. I don't think they should be completely removed but be read based. For example shortening the range of Kirby's swallow would make it harder to pull off.
2 Nerf kill throws. Both Lucas and Mewtwo have good kill options outside of up throw so I'd increase the percent at which their throws kill by 20%.
3 Nerf the hit stun of some projectiles. Pit's arrows and Link's boomerang are the biggest offenders.
Give everybody a shine campaign!
Kirby's swallow is already mostly read based and hard to pull off.
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Zx2963
Smash Journeyman
It's that or make everyone mid tier
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
making everyone a 2.5 sonic is basically brawl minus. go play that if you want a game with the philosophy of "if everyone is broken nobody is broken"
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Lol just let it get said.
I'm sure people switch to fox when they're losing IN AN EFFORT TO WIN (and do) because fox gets killed off one grab in pm . Lolololol
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
If I were to make a tier list of 3.02, here's what it'd be
Top-May need some nerfing, but other characters just may need buffs to compete better with these 8.
High-Nerfing would be appreciated, but its not really neccesary
Mid-Don't really need nerfs or buffs
Low-Could use some buffing
Just Bad- Need buffs
Explanations
Top Tier-Lucario
Unexplored. This dude is Street Fighter, insane combos. But no one has really played him in big name tournies.
Mid Tier-Marth
He's a lot weaker compared to Melee Marth and is much more reliant on his spacing compared to it. His grabs also aren't as deadly as the Melee ones.
Low Tier-Sheik
All of her strengths are done better by characters in higher tiers.
Top-May need some nerfing, but other characters just may need buffs to compete better with these 8.
High-Nerfing would be appreciated, but its not really neccesary
Mid-Don't really need nerfs or buffs
Low-Could use some buffing
Just Bad- Need buffs
Explanations
Top Tier-Lucario
Unexplored. This dude is Street Fighter, insane combos. But no one has really played him in big name tournies.
Mid Tier-Marth
He's a lot weaker compared to Melee Marth and is much more reliant on his spacing compared to it. His grabs also aren't as deadly as the Melee ones.
Low Tier-Sheik
All of her strengths are done better by characters in higher tiers.
D
Deleted member
Guest
YEAH SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS
TOONLINK FOR BOTTOM 3 BUFF MY CHARACTER
TOONLINK FOR BOTTOM 3 BUFF MY CHARACTER
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Ivysaur is pretty dang good. Thats why I put her in high tier. The thing keeping her out of top tier is her lower shield pressure ability compared to the top tiers and how poorly she can deal with it.
Shes easily shield poked,has poor shield pressure,mediocre OOT options,and CC really messes with her and also generally has trouble dealing with being pressured but also has her wall so that seems fine.She is still viable but is not in need of nerfs.
Ali Baba 177
Smash Journeyman
I only feel as though Mewtwo Fox and Mario need a nerf.
I think Fox can combo real well and has his great kill options, which you then say he gets comboed and killed easier as well so its ok. But then Fox also has a better neutral game so he is gonna get in with the combo to kill move/0-death more often in general. So this makes it seem, as I am thinking about it now, that his neutral should be a bit nerfed, like zero and M2k fox look so fast with constant moves which ends up being really hard to deal with. Im not saying nerf as in nerf, just like nerf tweaks
Mewtwo may just needs a minor upthrow kb nerf. A lot of people also say that his tail needs nerfed, which I mean I wouldnt mind, but I would rather his shadow ball nerfed as it comes out fast, travels fast, and kills. Plus it shutsdown frontal approach options. I think his tail can just be a signature good part of him. Oh! and I think his teleport should have a little bit of time after it before he can do a move.
I think Mario has everything needed, which is perfect because that is who he is supposed to be. But he is supposed to have good of everything and nothing too too great. His fireballs are great at zoning and do quite the damage if you suck like me and his combos are outrageous sometimes. I could go on about how every aspect is good, but I just think the fireballs should take a little more time to come out so he cant shoot so many in a short time frame.
I dont know who needs buff per se but the 'agreed upon' 'low tier' characters should get slight redesign. Im referring to Ice c, jiggs, and Olimar. Maybe ganon but no one would like that..
I think Fox can combo real well and has his great kill options, which you then say he gets comboed and killed easier as well so its ok. But then Fox also has a better neutral game so he is gonna get in with the combo to kill move/0-death more often in general. So this makes it seem, as I am thinking about it now, that his neutral should be a bit nerfed, like zero and M2k fox look so fast with constant moves which ends up being really hard to deal with. Im not saying nerf as in nerf, just like nerf tweaks
Mewtwo may just needs a minor upthrow kb nerf. A lot of people also say that his tail needs nerfed, which I mean I wouldnt mind, but I would rather his shadow ball nerfed as it comes out fast, travels fast, and kills. Plus it shutsdown frontal approach options. I think his tail can just be a signature good part of him. Oh! and I think his teleport should have a little bit of time after it before he can do a move.
I think Mario has everything needed, which is perfect because that is who he is supposed to be. But he is supposed to have good of everything and nothing too too great. His fireballs are great at zoning and do quite the damage if you suck like me and his combos are outrageous sometimes. I could go on about how every aspect is good, but I just think the fireballs should take a little more time to come out so he cant shoot so many in a short time frame.
I dont know who needs buff per se but the 'agreed upon' 'low tier' characters should get slight redesign. Im referring to Ice c, jiggs, and Olimar. Maybe ganon but no one would like that..
Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
Why do so many people think Zelda is top tier? She seems to be more annoying than actually powerful.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I'm wondering the same. I've read more in the past that she's a frustrating fight, but she has a fundamental problem dealing with anyone who simply plays the waiting game against her because of her poor mobility.
ivysaur already got pretty nerfed in 3.0 now someone who really needs a nerf is definatly mario.. that guy is above fox imo.
Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
Cept Mario isn't above Fox.
Zeldas like KDJ and Zhime place well at tournaments. She has a good defensive game and an excellent recovery, not only able to cover great distances, but also capable of covering it with side-b. She has a plethora of kill moves (two aerials plus the fastest d-smash in the game) and combo game (naryu love and nair combos). She has a great up-smash/d-smash Oos and f-smash has a large hitbox and hits hard. I wouldn't necessarily call her top tier though, but I'm fairly confident she's around high tier.
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Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
Like what GP&B said earlier, though, she's crippled by her lack of mobility, and her recovery doesn't matter when most characters can KO her at extremely low percents. She's not horrible by any means, but I see a lot of people placing her in the top 10 when, in my opinion, I can think of a lot of characters better than her.
Zx2963
Smash Journeyman
Luigi is underrated