Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Why are all of your opinions consistently wrong

 

[Juushichi]

Because of Awestin da gawd there is still hope.

 

[woundedust]

Why are all of your opinions consistently wrong

Because opinions are butt holes

 

[Empyrean]

Why are all of your opinions consistently wrong

ROB mid tier. Fact.

 

[Paradoxium]

Any tier list after SKTAR is probably ****. Might as well name 90% of them "After-tourney flip flopping to look like you were correct before"

Real men stick with their guns and try to be right *before* the tourney

I always thought samus was one of the best in the game, too many people slept on her, i even said so in a post from a like a month ago

 

[Strong Badam]

I had Samus/M2 in my top 10 before SKTAR

 

[Deleted member]

i mean i knew mewtwo was the best just like the rest of you fake-ass mother****ers

get real

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I was fairly certain Samus was mid-tier before SKTAR.

Still pretty sure she is.

#sticktoyourguns

 

[Nannas]

Samus is definitely mid tier or Mid high. However there are still a ton of people that don't know that her bombs hit through shields and leads right into a footstool. I think that she is still relatively unexplored and only time will tell where she will ultimately end up.

 

[BombTicker]

Yo if they fall for it and lose you are outplaying them. All of this stigma against kirbycides not being "genuine skill" is scrubbishness.

Agreed but when the troll faces get involved it implies that the player is attempting to get quick KOs without doing anything, not actually being smart with Kirby, I think he was joking anyways. I just have way too many traumatic memories of ****ty people at my school only playing kirby using down b and inhale when I was little lol.

 

[BombTicker]

SOSOooooo what do you guys think of the tier list I made last week now that Sktar is over.?./??

squirtle and dids should be higher in my opinion as well as link being lower.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

READ THIS: This is not a official tier list, merely some data I have collected!
However I do believe it accurately reflects PM's 'tier list' at this time, bare in mind this is for the current time and will definitely change month to month depending on game updates and developing meta.

Spoiler: Community Tier List

Community tier lists will forever be a great place for debate which is why I love doing it, especially since this is a Speculation thread! The voting system allows for people from all over to influence the tier list which means different regions with different strong characters/players will be represented. Now this obviously has flaws in it as more people could vote from one place or another, stupid people might vote, and trolls might lurk. But it still shows what people are thinking in general on this thread and is a good thing to keep track of.

Spoiler: Tournament Tier List

When I was first gathering data about PM and trying to create a current 'tier' list I was using tournament results in my tier list and some people kept saying it was a bad idea. I have thought about it and looked at what I was doing and figured that the way I was collecting data and including top results was more along the lines of showing what characters you are most likely to face off against in the top 8 at a random tournament in the past couple months (random day of the week and random place around the world). Now this is not what a typical tier list represents per-say, but it definitely shows helpful things about who people are playing at a higher level, what characters you should practice against more maybe, etc.
The percentage in the tier represents the likelihood of a top 8 battle. (made up)

Spoiler: Combined Tier List

View attachment 15133

The tier lettering system is often misinterpreted and I have tried to change the titles of tiers and seen others do the same. Do not misinterpret letters like D to mean bad and not viable, PMBR has done a great job at balancing and more importantly designing the entire cast. Its just that in the end, someone has to be on bottom and on top. Plenty of people on here have labeled there own meanings for the different tiers based on viability or need for changes or being slept on. This tier list is as I said, based on the data of community and tournament, which means it resembles something that can be more understood then someones speculation.

So, the described the two other 'tier' lists above are the most influential in the creating of this tier list that I have. I think that all in all this 'combined' tier list if you will represents the tier list of the short term future as it includes the data of the past and the speculation of the future. Predicting who has the most end all potential is hard and in the end somewhat pointless. Even games that dont change (melee) change there tier list every once in a while to respect changes in the meta. I think this tier list is the perfect way to show what PM is like at the current time/short future.

I again used similar methods from the last data tier list that I created, just a few changes to weight assigned. This tier list is comprised of the community tier ranking that was filled out here on smashboards (~45%), around 120 tournament results (~35%), and then ~20% of random factors such as other peoples community tier lists made on here, facebook, and everywhere, CT tier list, character usage, etc.
The tournament results are weighted on number of entrants and date of tournament, so the more recent tournaments and larger tournaments assign a greater value for placing.

Again, I understand people hate the numbering list because then characters in 30s or 40s seem bad, but this is NOT the case, all characters are viable proven by Dakpo, Hbox, Vist, etc.

If this tier list has any confusing placements of any character for you then its either because the community disagrees with you or the character has had unexpected tournament results. There are still tournaments I did not include so it has flaws in it for sure, but take it for what it is worth, I spent a lot of time on it. If you care about tier lists and think I need to change the weighting system I have or something, feel free to give any advice.

why is olimar below ic's and jiggs on the combined tier list while he is tied with ic's in one and above then in the other and above jiggs in both? if its explained in the post my bad but tl;dr

 

[0RLY]

No seriously. Every character needs a ledge grab limit.

 

[kaizo13]

wait, what?
ike really does have a grab limit of 5 on his up-b?
was it because you found his up-b to be too safe?

why not just make the hitbox not so overprotective so that continuously spamming up-b wouldn't seem like the logical thing to do?

i would much rather that be the case than to add unnecessary grab limits.

 

[Ace55]

wait, what?
ike really does have a grab limit of 5 on his up-b?
was it because you found his up-b to be too safe?

It's a Brawl thing iirc. To be honest I don't know if it's even necessary for Ike anymore, most chars seem to be able to knock him out of upB without too much trouble.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

why is olimar below ic's and jiggs on the combined tier list while he is tied with ic's in one and above then in the other and above jiggs in both? if its explained in the post my bad but tl;dr

Ya no worries, its because the combined tier list is also weighted 20% due to other factors such as the CT opinion, other respected players 'tier lists' on here, and a couple of other peoples tier surveys. All three are real close in the outcome numbers, but they have a pretty big gap as a group between them and 38, so just try to look at the tiers as more of a standings thing and then the numberings are likelihoods of characters placements, but can easily move. Im sure the next tier list I make Oli will be higher, unless someone breaks out with jiggs/IC and impressses people. (sorry if its tl again lol)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I really can't see jiggs being good in this game. Unless, they buff everything that made her good in melee, so she can actually do what she used to.

IC broken in some way, so they can't even be played the way the PMBR wants. They'll still be bad, ether way.

Olimar might be mid tier or something. If he grabs you at 0, he can take you straight to 40 or even 60. He has good kill moves, ways to set that up and chain grabs. He just needs to be changed in a few ways to overall better himself.

 

[1FD]

I had Samus/M2 in my top 10 before SKTAR

I always thought samus was one of the best in the game, too many people slept on her, i even said so in a post from a like a month ago

Samus is definitely mid tier or Mid high. However there are still a ton of people that don't know that her bombs hit through shields and leads right into a footstool. I think that she is still relatively unexplored and only time will tell where she will ultimately end up.

i mean i knew mewtwo was the best just like the rest of you fake-*** mother****ers


get real

I was fairly certain Samus was mid-tier before SKTAR.


Still pretty sure she is.

#sticktoyourguns

Didn't MOST people have M2 in the top 10 and Samus in the higher mid area since like...
THE RELEASE OF 3.2 ?!?!?!?

I lurked a lot before my account and most of the people who I seem to think know what they're doing had that from like the release date or whatever lol

CT opinion

CT being a factor?
COME ON ALI YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT even if you're list making is silly you shouldn't stoop to THAT silliness!

Samus is definitely mid tier or Mid high. However there are still a ton of people that don't know that her bombs hit through shields and leads right into a footstool. I think that she is still relatively unexplored and only time will tell where she will ultimately end up.

Bombs hitting through shields is cool but her Zair is what makes her beast and other than a few things outside of Ice mode she's more EXPLORED than most characters given she's copy pasted from Melee with better hitboxes and a few new moves. It's not like her archetype changed over the way a lot of other characters do and/or are new altogether.

Olimar might be mid tier or something. If he grabs you at 0, he can take you straight to 40 or even 60. He has good kill moves, ways to set that up and chain grabs. He just needs to be changed in a few ways to overall better himself.

Those GOOD things you mentioned are like what 100% of the characters in this game can do so it kind of makes Oli sound bad as if he needs help just by mentioning those things more than it makes it seem like he's ok because of that stuff. lol

Actually it would be hard to find a character outside of really dumb matchups that CAN'T kill well + combo to high % off almost any hit... the chain grabs are cool but that kind of falls into the whole combos off grabs at 0 thing.

Agreed on the Jiggs thing though the best thing I've heard is to give her a LOT more range or distance on Pound
and/or have it JCable on hit/cancelable into a second Pound
Gives her a high priority approach thing that does more when it connects other than HITTING PEOPLE FURTHER AWAY SO SHE GETS ZONED HARDER lol
The other thing was giving her something like a good down or forward tilt
MY GUDNESS would she love that in Melee let alone this crazy game of broken stuff
Just give her Fox or Kirby or someones down tilt that their not using much already LOL

I'd say the same about Marth too but I don't know how to explain it well.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's 3.02 btw not 3.2.

 

[1FD]

OMG NEW PATCH EVEN THE DEVS ARE 1.8 BEHIND OMG

 

[BombTicker]

OMG NEW PATCH EVEN THE DEVS ARE 1.8 BEHIND OMG

wth?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

so I made a tier list that's kinda meant to show both the current and near-future limits of each character as well as their likelihood of becoming better or worse. it's kinda a meta tierlist. Like obviously nobody is really thaaaat good with olimar atm but I think that he'll be better competitively in the future.

Spoiler

tl;dr: fear olimar

 

[Giygacoal]

I like that kind of character chart. It does a good job at representing viability. The only problem is when the characters are supposed to be tied.

 

[mimgrim]

Why oh why is charizard so ****ing low?

I mean. Worse then Ganondorf? Seriously?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

last time I said that dmgbaka came in here and yelled at me lol
but yeah charizard is currently worse than ganon. however, I think that charizard has more potential and will eventually be better than ganon
@ Giygacoal yeah when characters are tied it's kinda an issue

 

[mimgrim]

How in the hell is Charizard currently worse then Ganon?

 

[metroid1117]

IMHO both Ike and Charizard are at least mid tier, but I could have character bias. Both don't do very well against projectile and pressure-heavy characters, but I think those match-ups are usually manageable.

 

[Giygacoal]

@ PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
The best graphic design conscious solution I could come up with is to put the tied character pictures next to one another and give them a single underline.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Well I mean if you guys have reasons then tell me why. I'll try to explain my reasoning

ganon has a better neutral game than charizard. I feel as though charizard reacts mostly rather than forcing things like ganon does. ganon autocancel nair is a better tool in the neutral than most of everything that charizard has, while ganon also has side b to jab and autocancel nair to jab/ftilt (ie the arty vortex). while charizard can punish well, ganon can punish better, wall off space better, and arguably has better survivability. while charizard has a longer recovery, ganon's weight and faster falling speed prevent him from getting farther offstage in the first place.

however, charizard has better techchases and I think that there are applications of nair that could be developed and applied better in the future, so I feel like charizard has more potential/will be better in the future

 

[kaizo13]

I find charizard to be pretty solid. mid to mid-high

amazing jab, good grab range, kill throw, good tech chasing, great air combos, fast ground speed, good fair/nair/ f-tilt/ d-tilt etc..

i don't see how he could be that low on the list....projectiles do give him problems but i do think he has the tools to deal with it

 

[mimgrim]

So you're telling me this;

Spoiler

is better than;

Spoiler

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

Charizard has a way better Neutral game then Ganondorf. I mean seriously, RAR Nair, Bair, and Dtilt are all good, and I would argue better then Ganondorf's Nair. Ganondorf doesn't even have a good neutral game in the first place, he is know for his amazing punish game instead. Whereas Charizard doesn't have a bad neutral game, though I wouldn't say it is great either.

 

[DrinkingFood]

so I made a tier list that's kinda meant to show both the current and near-future limits of each character as well as their likelihood of becoming better or worse. it's kinda a meta tierlist. Like obviously nobody is really thaaaat good with olimar atm but I think that he'll be better competitively in the future.

Spoiler

tl;dr: fear olimar

I knew it

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

So you're telling me this;

Spoiler

is better than;

Spoiler

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

Charizard has a way better Neutral game then Ganondorf. I mean seriously, RAR Nair, Bair, and Dtilt are all good, and I would argue better then Ganondorf's Nair. Ganondorf doesn't even have a good neutral game in the first place, he is know for his amazing punish game instead. Whereas Charizard doesn't have a bad neutral game, though I wouldn't say it is great either.

yeah I am. I mean if you take two moves in a vacuum and compare them, you're going to end up with different conclusions. First of all, ganon nair hits in front of him on fram 8-10ish, while charizards hits on frame 15ish. you could reverse charizard's nair with RAR but the point of the potential list is that I don't see people doing that. Once people make better use of it is when charizard will be better. additionally, the more button presses that charizard has to go through to have access to his frame five hitbox in front of him is a tech barrier that is not inconsequential. characters who need to face the opposite direction that their opponent have automatically given themselves a disadvantage in the neutral (see DK in melee). Also, ganon's autocancel nair allows him to feed directly into jab/ftilt/sideb which can lead to more stuff, while charizard doesn't have (as far as I can tell) the same possibilities for combos that ganon has. If ganon whiffs a sh nair, he also has much less commitment and endlag than charizard does. Charizard's nair has a relatively large commitment, which is something that doesn't work out in his favor in the neutral.

View attachment 15599
I knew it

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[JOE!]

>CHARIZARD doesnt combo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8rg2dfLyTw&t=12m05s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mfAJYTVQKU

http://youtu.be/mKkkVFXstv0?t=6m2s

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

No lol I know charizard combos I never claimed he didm't have lots of overall combo options, just getting to them can kinda be an issue

 

[metroid1117]

yeah I am. I mean if you take two moves in a vacuum and compare them, you're going to end up with different conclusions. First of all, ganon nair hits in front of him on fram 8-10ish, while charizards hits on frame 15ish. you could reverse charizard's nair with RAR but the point of the potential list is that I don't see people doing that. Once people make better use of it is when charizard will be better. additionally, the more button presses that charizard has to go through to have access to his frame five hitbox in front of him is a tech barrier that is not inconsequential. characters who need to face the opposite direction that their opponent have automatically given themselves a disadvantage in the neutral (see DK in melee). Also, ganon's autocancel nair allows him to feed directly into jab/ftilt/sideb which can lead to more stuff, while charizard doesn't have (as far as I can tell) the same possibilities for combos that ganon has. If ganon whiffs a sh nair, he also has much less commitment and endlag than charizard does. Charizard's nair has a relatively large commitment, which is something that doesn't work out in his favor in the neutral.

Charizard's NAir is good because of its two reverse hits, not because of its single front hit - the initial hit is very fast and disjointed, whereas the swinging hit has immense range and a great KB angle for gimps. IMHO though, Charizard's grounded neutral game is stronger than Ganon's because of his mobility, not just because of his NAir. Charizard's run speed is extremely fast for a large character (only bested by Fox, Sonic, Falcon, MK, and maybe ZSS and Sheik IIRC) and grounded moves like his grab, jab, DTilt, and FTilt are respectably fast while covering a lot of range. Ganon, however, is nowhere near as mobile as Charizard and typically relies on CC'ing or snuffing out approaches with aerials, which can be baited and punished via dash dancing. In addition, Charizard has better options to escape out of shield pressure than Ganon, possessing a faster jumpsquat and an up+B OoS that's invincible on start-up.

Ganon and Charizard are both easy to combo, but even though he is bigger, Charizard is more awkward to combo because of his floatiness and weight, which generally make him more difficult to combo out of grabs than Ganon. When getting back down to the ground, reverse falling NAir is extremely good because of the range of the swing hit, which covers the area below and behind Charizard (and is disjointed by the flame); with his two aerial jumps and slow fallspeed, Charizard has more flexibility in how long he can spend in the air before coming down, enabling him greater precision on timing and aiming the falling NAir, which is even safer if Charizard opts to land on a platform. Ganon, however, is more prone to being punished for getting back to the ground because his options aren't quite as safe, since his aerials are more easily dash-danced around than Charizard's NAir. Almost equally as important, Ganon's recovery is not as strong as Charizard's; although he can restore his double-jumps with down+B and side+B is good for trading stocks, his recovery is much more predictable than Charizard's, who has two jumps, a glide (with a high-priority glair), and a long up+B. Although Charizard is easier to kill off the top than Ganon due to his floatiness, he is much less susceptible to being gimped at low %s because of those reasons.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Lol I don't think I've ever seen somebody say that Ganon's neutral game is better than another characters. It's cool to see somebody point out his autocancelled nairs, though, which I think are both vastly underused and underrated.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Hmmm yeah that makes sense I may have put zard a little too low. But I think that currently he's low mid-tier at best. Everyone is still viable though.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

CT being a factor?
COME ON ALI YOU'RE BETTER THAN THAT even if you're list making is silly you shouldn't stoop to THAT silliness!

lol I'm just trying to make a well rounded tier list that supports view points, and CT 'pros' should probably have there portion. It is given a pretty low weight though. I think the CT list is weighted at like 15% of the 20% random part. So probably somewhere between 2-5 % of the overall tier list. Plus there weight gets lower every time I update it.

 

[Phan7om]

People sleep on yoshi, that ***** is underrated!