• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Tier List Speculation

BombTicker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
83
Location
Long Island, NY
So I have a question since Yoshi was mentioned on this page along with Mewtwo
When PM3.0 came out, the 2 best players i know in person said right away that mewtwo and yoshi could very well be some of the best characters in the game
There were other characters they went into after but yoshi and mewtwo were like TOP TIER LIKELY from like the day they played the game

I really trust these 2 peeps for lots of reasons and almost everything they tell me seems to come true and it's been like this for many years LOL
Sooooo
Anyone think that highly of Yoshi at all?
Like top tier possibly?
Or are my local champs crazy?
Both of their release date guesses have been doing work recently if you include Melee........ so what's up with PM Yoshi?

I ask because I know neither of them have seen anything in 2014 from other players yet
Meaning no apex etc with Amsa as Yoshi doing work and none of the mew(2)king craze and of course nothing about sktar and the M2 ditto GFs etc yet
So I'm stoked to show them that stuff when they come back
But is Yoshi good in PM and/or possibly as good as Mewtwo type of thing?
I believe so, and my superiors in the game thinks so
What about around the rest of the community?
I felt out Yoshi a bit earlier, the double jump super armor doesn't feel like it has the same novelty as it did in melee for some reason.
"I'm glad something is possibly lame and toxic. I want it to stay so I can be cheesy! I HATE THIS GAME LET ME PROVE HOW BAD IT IS BY WINNING WITH M2!" - Cassio 20XX

Mewtwo talks: you can speculate or guess all you want, but Emu was the better Mewtwo player. Jason's personal comments on how he fares with Mewtwo, backed up by his tournament results, tend to show that he doesn't do as well vs non FF characters. Maybe that factored into why he didn't do so great in the ditto, maybe not. Either way, you don't look at a fact like "Jason lost in the Ditto, so the character must be busted!". If you have the capacity to analyze what Emu did better, or why he was effective with M2, then you don't need to be caught up in other stuff.


What the tournament showed us, was what some of us probably had a gut feeling about. Things about Mewtwo that would probably deserve a closer look at (not talking about guaranteed nerfs, since it's actually much easier to pinpoint those issues with other characters):

Should M2 be able to attack out of Teleport/what should his lag be
Should M2 be able to float out Teleport
Should M2 be able to "turn around" at the very end of a Teleport
Is it healthy for float to have that control vertically
Are his tail aerials healthy if he gets to keeps these traits

I leave out edgestalling, because general answers to that possible (would be interesting to see the frame data on his edge stall for example before making changes) problem could be found. Changes to edge invincibility, changes to how soon/easy his Upb can grab the edge, fairly basic stuff like this could probably be done. Solving any possible issues in that area would be a cakewalk in comparison to figuring out the rest.


Even after M2 won the tournament and everyone is all blah blah, it's much harder to say what makes him silly than more obvious stuff for other characters. A lot of his traits are pretty innocent when you think about them individually. When they are woven as a complete and whole character, it's much harder to say "float is the main problem, so we took it out" or "Tele too good, we only need nerfs on this". Situations and gameplay that some people would find unhealthy are a combination of his traits, not just 1 sole factor that overwhelms the others.


It's also kind of frustrating, because there are non "silly" uses for many of his traits that lead to interesting nuances (Weaving your floats in better ways than the average player, being proficient with Upb turnaround edgeguards, etc) and it's unfortunate that the total combination of them probably leads to some undesirable outcomes for character design and balance.


If the PMBR is set on going back over M2 and testing changes, I'd recommend testing only 1-2 removed or tweaked features at a time. There's probably some combination of "cool" stuff Mewtwo can keep, that won't be too far for balance, and you'll miss it if you slug him in a lot of general areas with the nerf bat and just go with that. Normally I would actually have plenty of faith that they could get the changes right, but the Mewtwo case is much more complex than the average "Sonic is fast, Ike is strong" things we notice.
Who cares what people say it's just the Armada Apex 2014 effect where because someone wins with a character the character should be nerfed. But to be honest I don't think any of those nerfs would leave the character with much, he's not personally my favorite character per se but I don't think he should be removed which is what those nerfs would basically do, again I may be wrong since I don't get around to playing him much.
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
Location
???
Totally agree with that Armada effect. Thats what I was trying to get at a little with my earlier post.
 

BombTicker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
83
Location
Long Island, NY
Been saying :mewtwopm: was top tier since March. I think my list from then wasn't too far off lmao. I would make a few changes tho.

Edit: Current opinion (Note, this is just tier areas, not actual positions):
Top tier:
:lucas:, :link2:, :fox:, :mewtwopm:, :pit:, :samus2:, :metaknight:

High tier:
:wario:, :mario2:, :falco:, :snake:, :wolf:, :sheilda:, :zelda:, :sheik:, :diddy:

Mid high tier:
:ivysaur:, :ness2:,:rob:, :sonic:, :pikachu2:, :bowser2:, :marth:,

Mid tier:
:zerosuitsamus:, :dk2:, :roypm:, :dedede:, :peach:, :ike:, :charizard:, :kirby2:

Low mid tier:
:falcon:, :luigi2:, :toonlink:, :yoshi2:, :lucario:, :gw:, :squirtle:

Low tier:
:jigglypuff:, :olimar:, :popo:, :ganondorf:

:018:
Should I tell the PMBR if I know a broken technique/combo with a character that is basically an infinite and is not DI dependent? Just reminded me because of that char's low placing. But how would I do this without ****ing everything up by telling people?
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
Location
???
Kirby can GC a lot of characters into usmash/dsmash kill %. Can even GC some well into the 200s. Platforms dont make that much of a diff, so it can happen on any stage. You can DI, but you'd end up off stage where Kirby can use his gimp power to edgeguard you. The overrated dash attack sets up for a lot of combos, and kirby has an underrated combo game. Fsmash/Inhale beats out a lot of moves. Kirby can duck everything higher than Sonic's jabs, and crouch cancel the moves that he cant avoid. One of the best recoveries. FC that spikes. Underrated rock that helps with his combo game. Hammer is disjointed, has high kill potential, and with proper spacing cant be punished. Frame 3 nair that has ko potential. Kirby has just as many kill options as Lucas, maybe even more. Great tilts. Great throws. Copy abilities can add to the versatility to his moveset. And can even do the Chu and Kirbycide when you have the lead.... but Kirby is still low-mid.
 

Empyrean

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
2,604
Location
Hive Temple
NNID
Arnprior
Lucas has an infinite and I doubt anything's gonna be done about that, sooooo

Unless it proves to be unhealthy for the game (Which I feel all infinites are, real talk)
I don't know what they could do to fix it without changing how DJC works, or dair. Then again, I'm not really knowledgeable in these stuff.

Also, is there any vid where I can see the infinite? Heard Plasma was pretty good at it.
 

MysteryRevengerson

IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,029
Location
VA baby whe' you at
I don't know what they could do to fix it without changing how DJC works, or dair.
Basically the SDI multiplier on the first hit of Dair doesn't allow you to move very far, so what little distance you DO move can actually be covered by Lucas moving to the other side of the opponent keeping you from reaching the ledge until you're at kill percent (at which point you do FSmash)
 

BombTicker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
83
Location
Long Island, NY
Totally agree with that Armada effect. Thats what I was trying to get at a little with my earlier post.
Also I think the 2 characters with the most unlocked potential are Charizard and Squirtle. If someone decent gave charizard a shot I think he would be mid-high tier, the hit boxes on his aerials are far more broken than people make use of. Also I have no doubt in my mind that Squirtle is top tier, no worse than high tier, I haven't really got a chance to mess around with him that much and he isn't even one of my secondaries but from what I have played of him he has build a bear combos that are amazing and an assured grab kill at 100% on most chars with a few pummels. His tilt game is fantastic and great for juggling mid-foaties while his upsmash and some of his tilts can juggle fast fallers like its nothing. His cancelable side b with proper practice can KO offstage chars with stationary/predictable recoveries like fox/falco while his up b can recover from incredible distance. He has a wall stick/ wall jump that also helps his recovery and allows him along with luigi and kirby to have what in my opinion is the best stage spike potential in the game. His side b can help him recover from ANYWHERE horizontally with decent DI while he can just use his wall jump and recovery move to get back if he goes too low which is rare considering most stages don't have that kind of horizontal size. His down B leads to a lazy tech chase or a free punish of your choosing. And if short hopped and timed correctly his down B is amazing for edge guarding predictable recoveries which would help the enemy "just" reach the stage as it has decent hitstun for such a small attack, disrupts recovery move and pushes the enemy down slightly without spiking them. Also his up B punishes anyone who tries to edge guard him and he kind of get back for free because if you edge guard him and are too close to the edge he can hit you with up b which usually leads to the sweet spot which pushes you pretty close to the blast line at decent percent which means that the enemy is pushed too far away to punish his landing. The super armor on his fsmash is okay, not great, it's just good as a surprise to mix it up I guess. His dsmash semispikes at the bottom hitboxes meaning it has edgeguarding potential if used on someone who wishes to sweetspot the ledge, his upsmash has great knockback and a massive hitbox, this alone makes his AntiAir game great. His downthrow against fastfallers makes for a good tech chase and against mid-floaties it is a VERY early kill move. His upthrow combos very well. His side B combos into nair, fair, or bair almost every time. He has a super armor (I think it is super armor, it may not be) crawl which is always a luxury. Crouch cancels with squirtle are very efficient because of this crawl. I think I addressed all of his attributes, besides his aerials and wavedash, his fair is a great gimp move and kill move, his bair is very valuable for stage spiking and makes stage spiking much easier, his dair is not my favorite but it has very little knockback and acts almost like foxes dair so I guess it combos well and his upair is great for juggling mid-fastfallers. He, like Luigi is a very slippery character making wavedashing not detrimental as he can slide smash and **** like that, but his wavedash, like Luigi's is great, very far, an amazing choice for mobility, I just said it is not detrimental because if newer players have trouble wavedashing but still want to play him they can although they will find themselves reach the skill cap far sooner. I think squirtle is the most underrated character in the game, when I finish school in 2-4 weeks I will try to make squirtle work and continue to explore his techs, right now I am going off of what I experienced when I tried him last week when just messing around with my friend and trying new characters as a usually just use Firef ucks and beowulf. He has so much unlocked potential that nobody has made use of. I'd like to see more high level players give him a go, I do know that TKBreezy played him for a bit but I don't remember it being very impressive to be honest. Also the amount of tech skill required to play him at a high level may be a bit extraneous meaning he requires an unreasonable amount of tech skill that no every day players can use him efficiently, although I do believe he may rely more on reaction time because everything he does has to potential to combo if the user can adjust quickly. SO.. that's my squirtle write up, feel free to correct me if I got something wrong which I am sure I did a few times. -MachineHead (Bombticker here I guess) out
 

Empyrean

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
2,604
Location
Hive Temple
NNID
Arnprior
Basically the SDI multiplier on the first hit of Dair doesn't allow you to move very far, so what little distance you DO move can actually be covered by Lucas moving to the other side of the opponent keeping you from reaching the ledge until you're at kill percent (at which point you do FSmash)
Gosh, that sounds scary af. So if I got this right, just change the multiplier and it ain't an infinite anymore?
 

BombTicker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
83
Location
Long Island, NY
Kirby can GC a lot of characters into usmash/dsmash kill %. Can even GC some well into the 200s. Platforms dont make that much of a diff, so it can happen on any stage. You can DI, but you'd end up off stage where Kirby can use his gimp power to edgeguard you. The overrated dash attack sets up for a lot of combos, and kirby has an underrated combo game. Fsmash/Inhale beats out a lot of moves. Kirby can duck everything higher than Sonic's jabs, and crouch cancel the moves that he cant avoid. One of the best recoveries. FC that spikes. Underrated rock that helps with his combo game. Hammer is disjointed, has high kill potential, and with proper spacing cant be punished. Frame 3 nair that has ko potential. Kirby has just as many kill options as Lucas, maybe even more. Great tilts. Great throws. Copy abilities can add to the versatility to his moveset. And can even do the Chu and Kirbycide when you have the lead.... but Kirby is still low-mid.
agreed
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
Location
???
Also I think the 2 characters with the most unlocked potential are Charizard and Squirtle. If someone decent gave charizard a shot I think he would be mid-high tier, the hit boxes on his aerials are far more broken than people make use of. Also I have no doubt in my mind that Squirtle is top tier, no worse than high tier, I haven't really got a chance to mess around with him that much and he isn't even one of my secondaries but from what I have played of him he has build a bear combos that are amazing and an assured grab kill at 100% on most chars with a few pummels. His tilt game is fantastic and great for juggling mid-foaties while his upsmash and some of his tilts can juggle fast fallers like its nothing. His cancelable side b with proper practice can KO offstage chars with stationary/predictable recoveries like fox/falco while his up b can recover from incredible distance. He has a wall stick/ wall jump that also helps his recovery and allows him along with luigi and kirby to have what in my opinion is the best stage spike potential in the game. His side b can help him recover from ANYWHERE horizontally with decent DI while he can just use his wall jump and recovery move to get back if he goes too low which is rare considering most stages don't have that kind of horizontal size. His down B leads to a lazy tech chase or a free punish of your choosing. And if short hopped and timed correctly his down B is amazing for edge guarding predictable recoveries which would help the enemy "just" reach the stage as it has decent hitstun for such a small attack, disrupts recovery move and pushes the enemy down slightly without spiking them. Also his up B punishes anyone who tries to edge guard him and he kind of get back for free because if you edge guard him and are too close to the edge he can hit you with up b which usually leads to the sweet spot which pushes you pretty close to the blast line at decent percent which means that the enemy is pushed too far away to punish his landing. The super armor on his fsmash is okay, not great, it's just good as a surprise to mix it up I guess. His dsmash semispikes at the bottom hitboxes meaning it has edgeguarding potential if used on someone who wishes to sweetspot the ledge, his upsmash has great knockback and a massive hitbox, this alone makes his AntiAir game great. His downthrow against fastfallers makes for a good tech chase and against mid-floaties it is a VERY early kill move. His upthrow combos very well. His side B combos into nair, fair, or bair almost every time. He has a super armor (I think it is super armor, it may not be) crawl which is always a luxury. Crouch cancels with squirtle are very efficient because of this crawl. I think I addressed all of his attributes, besides his aerials and wavedash, his fair is a great gimp move and kill move, his bair is very valuable for stage spiking and makes stage spiking much easier, his dair is not my favorite but it has very little knockback and acts almost like foxes dair so I guess it combos well and his upair is great for juggling mid-fastfallers. He, like Luigi is a very slippery character making wavedashing not detrimental as he can slide smash and **** like that, but his wavedash, like Luigi's is great, very far, an amazing choice for mobility, I just said it is not detrimental because if newer players have trouble wavedashing but still want to play him they can although they will find themselves reach the skill cap far sooner. I think squirtle is the most underrated character in the game, when I finish school in 2-4 weeks I will try to make squirtle work and continue to explore his techs, right now I am going off of what I experienced when I tried him last week when just messing around with my friend and trying new characters as a usually just use Firef ucks and beowulf. He has so much unlocked potential that nobody has made use of. I'd like to see more high level players give him a go, I do know that TKBreezy played him for a bit but I don't remember it being very impressive to be honest. Also the amount of tech skill required to play him at a high level may be a bit extraneous meaning he requires an unreasonable amount of tech skill that no every day players can use him efficiently, although I do believe he may rely more on reaction time because everything he does has to potential to combo if the user can adjust quickly. SO.. that's my squirtle write up, feel free to correct me if I got something wrong which I am sure I did a few times. -MachineHead (Bombticker here I guess) out
I agree, Zard and especially Squirtle are underrated. Yoshi, Ness, Peach, ZSS, ICs, Kirby, Luigi, Wolf, Lucario, Pika, D3, and Olimar i also think are underrated, mainly because either no one plays them to their full potential, only 1 or 2 smart/good people play that character and dont get much pub, or a combo of both.
 
Last edited:

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
I didn't know Mewtwo could float or jump out of teleport, which changes a LOT about how I see the character. I probably never found out because I keep tap jump on. I definitely want to try him out now, though I'm positive hovering out of teleport will be gone in the next patch. Such a safe option. Reminiscent of 2.5 Sonic shenanigans.
 

Saproling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
239
Location
Illinois
Charizards edge guarding and combo game is stupid good the nair can stop everything from coming back from a certain distance down including tether characters.Then when your above charizard well good luck with that.
 

Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
331
Location
La Plata, Maryland
NNID
Nazoplex
I didn't know Mewtwo could float or jump out of teleport, which changes a LOT about how I see the character. I probably never found out because I keep tap jump on. I definitely want to try him out now, though I'm positive hovering out of teleport will be gone in the next patch. Such a safe option. Reminiscent of 2.5 Sonic shenanigans.
Floating out of teleport isn't exactly "safe". Teleport has a fixed distance, so you'll always know where he'll end up, and when mewtwo is knocked out of his float he loses his second jump. So rest assured that when Mewtwo is punished for floating out of teleport he will have trouble getting his footing back.
 
Last edited:

BombTicker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
83
Location
Long Island, NY
Floating out of teleport isn't exactly "safe". Teleport has a fixed distance, so you'll always know where he'll end up, and when mewtwo is knocked out of his float he loses his second jump. So rest assured that when Mewtwo is punished for floating out of teleport he will have trouble getting his footing back.
This, reassuring to hear it from someone good like Nazo tho
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 12, 2006
Messages
2,318
Location
Crowley/Fort Worth, TX
NNID
Problem0
I'm fully aware that one of the weaknesses of teleport is it's fixed distance, but that doesn't change the fact that Mewtwo can threaten you by constantly spacing for it, forcing you to respect him a screen away. You can swat it when you see it coming, but if you just react to it by shielding, he gets away. You'll notice in several matches vs Emukiller, players started spacing attacks at where he could teleport, but Emukiller played around it anyways and still got plenty of teleport in, floating nairs.
 

SixSaw

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
321
Location
Chicago, IL
The only change I'd make to M2 is maybe toning down fair a tad: decreased knockback and a slightly lower angle. It just seems a little dissonant with the rest of his kit which is really focused on juggles and aerial combos to have this move that he can just throw out in neutral to kill off the top at relatively low percents.

Other than that I think the character is fine. He has defined strengths (combo game, especially of ffers, recovery), but also clear weaknesses (sluggish movement, and relatively weak approach options outside of teleport which, contrary to what many seem to believe, is extremely unsafe.)
 

ThreeSided

Smash Ace
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
600
Location
USA, CT
The only change I'd make to M2 is maybe toning down fair a tad: decreased knockback and a slightly lower angle. It just seems a little dissonant with the rest of his kit which is really focused on juggles and aerial combos to have this move that he can just throw out in neutral to kill off the top at relatively low percents.
You would have his only fast kill move rendered mediocre? He needs that to kill off of his combos. If they did that his gameplan would become very one-dimensional. It'd be like nerfing falcon's knee because it's not similar enough to the rest of his SHFFL combo moves.
 

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
IDK why people are saying Mewtwo should be nerfed. TBH Emu won solely because no one at SKTAR 3 was used to such a fast Mewtwo. Emu's Mewtwo was the fastest Mewtwo I've seen. A new style often beats everyone else, until people learn how to counter it. Nairo at Apex 2012 got 3rd because his MK style was so ridiculously aggressive and speedy. Same with Otori, but Otori had more precision than Nairo which is why he's better. Salem won the following year because his ZSS was difficult to read because of its tons of mobility tricks. As for Nairo, he still is a top 5 Brawl player because of his quickness, but Salem has yet to win another tournament after Apex. People learned how to fight him. Once people learn how to beat Teleport+Hover Cancel, Mewtwo mains will revert back to the much slower form of play.

@ SixSaw SixSaw Marth's fair is bigger. Much much bigger.
 
Last edited:

SixSaw

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
321
Location
Chicago, IL
You would have his only fast kill move rendered mediocre? He needs that to kill off of his combos.
No, the thing is the current fair is overkill for that in most situations. It can still be a potent finisher without also being able to kill a grounded opponent raw. Falcon's knee requires setup. M2's fair does not.

@ SixSaw SixSaw Marth's fair is bigger. Much much bigger.
And?
 
Last edited:

victinivcreate1

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
1,628
Location
New York City
NNID
Wiiu4ssb4
3DS FC
3007-8585-6950
This thread really makes me want to pick up Mewtwo.
Go ahead! Mewtwo is a great character. But he IMO has a high learning curve. Its not that his techs are hard, its the situations that the techs he has creates that take time to learn.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 19, 2010
Messages
5,264
Location
Grieving No Longer
It's almost like characters have unique strengths and weaknesses and their moves cannot easily be taken out of context and compared!

Go ahead! Mewtwo is a great character. But he IMO has a high learning curve. Its not that his techs are hard, its the situations that the techs he has creates that take time to learn.
Yeah I can tell 0_o
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
Mewtwo's fair doesn't Ken Combo on most of the cast, or can end in a down air that can KO as early as 50.
Ken combos are DI dependent, and jumping for marth is a huge commitment. M2 lives in the air and Float-Fair kills raw at higher percents regardless of DI... Not a good comparison imo
 

Empyrean

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
2,604
Location
Hive Temple
NNID
Arnprior
Also holy crap this thing is huge
I knew there was a huge disjoint!!

Shadow claw is surprisingly good at ending combos. I can't tell you how many times I saw someone get hit with it while comboing M2, even dying in the process.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
It isn't even like Mewtwo is being called out because of Emu and M2K. He was labeled as incredibly good the moment he came out and over time it is only proving more so. I have yet to be disproved. He has the tools to deal with any character, not just fast fallers. It had to be tough for ESAM to face M2 with Samus just because Upthrow KOs at 110.

I'm not calling for nerfs, I've got to the point of acceptance of everything in the game currently. I am just pointing out that Mewtwo is REALLY good and you can play him and also do good. Kind of like Diddy where he is super good and has stuff to deal with the neutral game if you aren't confident in the MU.
 
Last edited:

Saproling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
239
Location
Illinois
It isn't even like Mewtwo is being called out because of Emu and M2K. He was labeled as incredibly good the moment he came out and over time it is only proving more so. I have yet to be disproved. He has the tools to deal with any character, not just fast fallers. It had to be tough for ESAM to face M2 with Samus just because Upthrow KOs at 110.
Esams Pikachu outplayed emu pretty damn hard even with all the quick attack cancelling and everything.Its definitely a bad MU for Pikachu but I still think Pikachu is also just weak.Some characters just cant kill and some have too many ways to kill it seems rather silly.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
3,135
Location
The other side of Sanity
I'm fully aware that one of the weaknesses of teleport is it's fixed distance, but that doesn't change the fact that Mewtwo can threaten you by constantly spacing for it, forcing you to respect him a screen away. You can swat it when you see it coming, but if you just react to it by shielding, he gets away. You'll notice in several matches vs Emukiller, players started spacing attacks at where he could teleport, but Emukiller played around it anyways and still got plenty of teleport in, floating nairs.
You know everything you said can also be applied to Ike and Quick Draw.

We nerfing Ike again?
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
3,135
Location
The other side of Sanity
Quickdraw doesn't have intangible and invisible frames...
No, but it does benefit from a massive disjoint, a variety of aerial AND grounded options, a turnaround that extends the areas Ike can threaten and can even beat shield, since it can be cancelled into a grab.

Besides, the quotation I replied to made no mention of the i-frames, merely the ability to cover or space quickly. A trait that is not by itself inherently overpowering or overwhelming, which another perfectly balanced character has had for a pretty long time. It's pretty apples or oranges but the moral is the same: When you face a character with the ability to be all up in your business at a moment's notice, you account for that and play around it. It doesn't in itself translate to "FOUL!"
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
Orlando, FL
NNID
MetalDude
Quick Draw has comparisons, but it's nowhere near as fast nor does it offer as extremely high utility.
 
Top Bottom