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Tier List Speculation

Tlock

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
171
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
I was interested in comparing this to the number of relevant melee matchups.

From the 2010 tier list, and by what I think is considered a pretty liberal stance on what you could come across in tournament, I used the top 15 characters or S-D tiers.

15 X 15 = 225
Less 15 ditto matches = 210
Less mirror matches = 105

So PM = 820 relevant matchups, melee 105 relevant matchups.

A very rough comparison, but can give an idea at the depth this game possesses.
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
1,419
Location
Washington, DC
I have one objection to that list: Mario is not fun to play as at all. He lacks a coolness factor, and I think that holds him back. Other than that, your list is spot on.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
>Zelda is fun to play

ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
you can say ganon is low tier, but he's hella fun to play. **** list, would not read again, etc...
 

Fortress

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
3,097
Location
Kalispell, MT
crap, messed it up lol, lets break it down:

41 characters as of 3.0

41 x 41 = 1681 total matchups

41 / 1681 are ditto matches, so they can be excluded (1681 - 41 = 1640)

from the 1640 remaining, half of them are "Zelda vs Mario" and "Mario vs Zelda", so it can safely be split in half to eliminate "mirrored" match-ups

1640 / 2 = 820
Or you could just use the random combinations formula. n!/[k!(n-k)!]. You could also just just plug in 41C2 into your calculator.
how does math work again?
WHAT IN THE **** SPACE MATH DO WE DO FOR TEAMS? My head hurts. Maybe it's the wine. Happy Thanksgiving, math nerds.
I wish I could do math...
 

Kid_Carlton13

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
59
Location
Memphis
NNID
KidCarlton13
3DS FC
0447-6623-7476
So why doesn't anybody think Toon Link is top tier? C'mon now he's small and quick with a good smash attack.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
As it turns out, you've just described something like half of the characters in this game.
 

Ogopogo

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
568
Location
Middle TN
3DS FC
3797-6544-0935
Zelda can be really fun, depending on how you play her, and depending on what you think is fun.
 

Kid_Carlton13

Smash Cadet
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Oct 30, 2013
Messages
59
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Memphis
NNID
KidCarlton13
3DS FC
0447-6623-7476
Well when you think about yeah I guess but I also think of how I use Toon Link in Project M and in Brawl because of the differences in heir Up B attacks. Idk I just really like using him. Hey do you play project m and if so would you wanna play some now?????
 

Kid_Carlton13

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
59
Location
Memphis
NNID
KidCarlton13
3DS FC
0447-6623-7476
I can see how Zelda is fun, but I don't use her. I was playing with one of the guys that works on Project M and he was whooping my ass with Zelda.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
3,303
Location
Tri Hermes Black Land
It's mainly just every time I play and lose as Zelda, I feel as though I could do better and maybe win next time. Whereas with Dorf I just feel frustrated and he feels like a less fun and less useful version of Falcon. I mean he does have ftilt and the boot so he's really fun in casual ffas with items, but not usually in serious play. Maybe he should be moved right a little bit, zss is a real ***** to play as.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
TL? Well, killing people is a ***** if you can't land Dthrow to Upb or some cheesy related string. His bombs have negative quirks with SDI, he can still be outranged (not necessarily out-disjointed) by plenty of characters despite having his own sword, having a tether grab doesn't really help since the air grabbing part has long been nerfed, his neutral game feels kind of underwhelming until/unless you had the space and time to pull things out of your little fairy pants, wee bit susceptible to CC, etc

I never got the Usmash quirk of hitting twice. I honestly feel like he would have been better off if you made it one strong slash, because lets face it you only TRY to hit with the first part and 90% of the time you either:

1. Hit the person... and wish you weren't in lag swinging at the air above

2. Missed the person... and wished you weren't in lag swinging at the air above

3. No srsly stop slashing bro, one and done

The only time it feels good, are very niche moments like a spacie or fat character at low % and you manage both hits. OR if you somehow work both hits to get their shield/push them off a platform into the next hit/jank town USA. Link's Usmash being a bunch of slashes feels fine because it naturally combos into itself and there's a rythm that makes sense. When TL does it, it looks like a magical ferris wheel of crazy kiddie swordplay in the park, fighting imaginary dragons. I wouldn't recommend going the Link route for TL, since he's dealing with shorter range to begin with and doesn't have a use for a trickier Usmash frankly. Just have that first slash with lowered lag. Someone says that it's too similar to Utilt? Then:

1A. Utilt comes out quicker, is better for comboing, and has less lag

2A. Usmash has more range, more kill power, and probably more active frames/starts the arc lower to the ground than Utilt


GG

"Hey DMG you have pretty good ideas, why aren't you in the PMBR?" - Reporter from The Daily Smash

Bcz


...

Melee
 

Kid_Carlton13

Smash Cadet
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Oct 30, 2013
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59
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KidCarlton13
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Idk man Toon Link is just that character for me but I've noticed in project m with his midair Up B your first slash is the powerful strike whereas in Brawl the last slash in the midair Up B is the powerful strike it's more convenient with Project M's up b. But in general with TL he is just a character you gotta get used to and personally easier to handle compared to link.
 

MysteryRevengerson

IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
3,029
Location
VA baby whe' you at
That tier grid made me hella salty, I know it's just opinions and **** but oh my god.

Wario's one of the funnest characters in the game, Ness is pretty damn high and Diddy's a lot of fun too
 

Ogopogo

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
568
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Middle TN
3DS FC
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Hey do you play project m and if so would you wanna play some now?????
I don't have the wifi version, but come to the Murfreesburo meetups. When I can come, I'll fight ya.

Also Wario is pretty fun, should be higher up on the Fun Tier List.
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Messages
1,485
Location
Here
The entire Sonic boards say he isn't fun to play, but that chart has him uber-fun.
Ganon is well placed...

Dedede should be OFF THE CHART BCUZ NOT A REAL CHAR
Etc...
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
3,303
Location
Tri Hermes Black Land
You all can make your own charts if you want.

Umm my theory about that is that they have been playing sonic for awhile, and were used to 2.5 sonic and then got salty when he was nerfed. I started playing sonic a bit in 2.6, I never had any experience with 2.5 sonic, so the fun of spindashes and all of sonic's other shenanigans was new and fresh to me.
 

SixSaw

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 28, 2013
Messages
321
Location
Chicago, IL
Anyone who says Ganon isn't fun has never played him in doubles.

Also, any chance you could share a blank version of your grid, magikarp?
 

Nazo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
331
Location
La Plata, Maryland
NNID
Nazoplex
I think Sonic is fun, as well as Diddy.

When the sonic boards were mentioning how he isn't fun, they were refering to S3Ri0uS competitive play, seeing as Sonic can't mindlessly spin and not be punished for it.

I think it would be fun to make a Tier list using the MvC-like tier grid.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
3,303
Location
Tri Hermes Black Land
Anyone who says Ganon isn't fun has never played him in doubles.

Also, any chance you could share a blank version of your grid, magikarp?
I just screenshotted the grid from this site after setting up my own chart: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/index.html
After some cropping in paint I just used the character thumbnails from the project m character page and positioned everything in paint. Photoshop would probably work better if you have that.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
You know you should re-evaluate your choice of main when they're ranked below Puff in entertainment value.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Shadoof
Please move the discussion back to Tiers, as compared to "____ is fun/not fun to play."

Thanks. <3
 

Nguz95

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
1,419
Location
Washington, DC
I'm not sold on Zelda being a really good character. Maybe it's just me, but i feel like she's more cheese than substance. It seems tome that her glaring weaknesses from Melee, namely not being able to approach, are still present. Ik understand that she can force her opponent to approach, but that can only get you so far in what I think is a pretty aggressive minded game.
 
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