Tier List Speculation

[Xebenkeck]

It's not a fact of whether the spacies are beatable or not. (they've always been beatable)

Its that fact that they have certain characteristics about them that are broken.

I mentioned this a looooooong time ago when P:M was still 1 thread here. But what I said then, it was response to Ike fsmash being called broken, was that NO MATTER WHAT MOVE the pmbr adds to the game it will never be as broken as a shine. This where that stupid joke came from "that to balance the game just give everyone a shine."

A shine, to list off what it does, hits on FRAME 1, was/is invincible on FRAME 1, is a combo starter, is a gimp tool, is a 1 FRAME CC, reflects ALL projectiles, can be JC on any frame, allows for mid air turnarounds, combos into itself, among all the pressure on shields you can apply with it with the above attributes.

I dare anyone to name ANY move in P:M that can even compare to that. Oh right there isn't any.

So when it comes to "nerfing" the spacies I think it is perfectly justifiable the nerf made to the shine.

Beyond that there are only two other moves the spacies have which are borderline overpowered(not broken), and those are Falco's dair, and Fox's usmash. Those are the only moves beyond the shine nerf, I think should be addressed if there are to be nerfs. Of which PAL versions would make an decent solution.

 

[Rarik]

Fox/Falco in PAL Melee were still top tier. Fox/Falco in PM with PAL nerfs miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight not be 1st/2nd but they'd still be incredibly obnoxious to play against and definitely top 4 (assuming nothing like 2.5 sonic shows up)

Also 2.5 Sonic Down B was more borken than shine imo.

 

[| Kailex |]

it was like: just know how to wavedash to beat the living **** out of the entire cast; except for alakadoof
and what do you guys think mewtwo's place in the tier list will be? mid tier?

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm afraid of Lucas-from-the-future.
That's the only thing in this game that scares me.
Falcon is manageable, Bowser too, space animals too...
Lucas that no longer makes mistakes, that no longer has stiff and hesitant motions, that no longer has optimization to work out, that no longer lacks the dynamics that are apparent but not yet intuitive in play...
Want to scare people by JUST BEING THERE, want to force openings REGARDLESS OF SITUATION, want to take a stock OFF ANY HIT CONNECTED?
Lucas...

/fearthetierrisingz

 

[SpiderMad]

I too, am afraid of mid tier characters destroying the space time conitinuum

 

[Nausicaa]

It's funny how you even referred to them as 'mid-tier' characters, yet through the destruction of the space-time continuum, technically if they're not in the FUTURE, they aren't NOW either...

DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNN

 

[Vashimus]

Shaddap, Bamesy.

 

[DMG]

I want to be the first person to say i think your wrong about this, pikachu to be more specific. Im willing to bet that if 2 equally skilled players went at it, one with pika and one with fox, it would be either 50:50 or pretty close, the winner would come down to the players and not the characters. I know im probably the only one to think this, but i think space animals are one of pikachu's better match ups. Yup i said it

My post wasn't about Fox vs Pikachu. Reread it!

Lucas: sounds all great and dandy, if you can completely stop all CC/roll attempts.

 

[| Kailex |]

even top lucas players still have a long way to go to use lucas to his true potential, not 100% but somewhere around 85-95% lucas is too good that shine is useless a peanut

 

[Viceversa96]

Where's that at? I haven't seen people talk exclusively about that, I'm addressing stuff like "For fun, in a world where Mario > the rest of the cast, what would Mario look like/have different than the current Mario?" and "IF WE BUFF EVERYONE TO BE ON PAR WITH THEM...".

If you guys mean buff people strictly to have a 50:50 MU with Spacies, you would still have a bunch of imbalances and unintended consequences. There would be a lot of better DDing characters, more CG's, stronger edge guarding, more range/grab range, etc. Those are universal buffs a lot of characters would get, and you would still skew things heavily in the non Spacie related MU's.



How to make Mario the absolute best character with no debate:


1. Have speed or range to deal with the current range disadvantages he goes through. Why? It doesn't matter if you can CG Spacies to Death, or manage to get an even MU with them. You'll have to compete then with the characters that have much bigger range and can keep you out.


2. Have more speed or range. Seriously. Minor tweaks like buffing his tilts a bit, or making Dsmash hit harder, probably won't make him the best. You want him to be the best? Fix fundamental and core flaws, not itty bitty stuff like making cape pixels wider or adding 2% damage on Uair, or adding sparkles to Fair. Characters tend to need big peepee tools to truly go even with Tha Space Dolphins. Stuff needs to be ridiculously good to beat very strong characters.


Characters that could use "tiny tweaks" to beat Spacies and/or be considered the best in the game: 2.1 Ike, 2.1/2.5 Sonic, 2.1 Lucario, Sheik


Just about everyone else would need buffs that have clear impacts on the rest of their MU. More grab range so you can pivot grab any Spacie approach? Good luck to Pikachu winning against your character. Uthrow CG to death? Sorry Falcon, Wolf, Lucas, etc. Minorly buffed tilts? Might change some aspects, of some MU's, without ruining them or completely pooing on stuff. A Mario Utilt closer to Diddy's Utilt probably isn't gonna mean a damn thing against Spacies, but might stuff some Falcon approaches better and make the MU slower for Falcon against Mario. Asking for extremely precise and "minor" buffs that supposedly would give people 50:50 with Spacies, without really changing that character's other MU's, is probably asking for the impossible. To make a character go even, AND then also be the best character in the game, chances are you aren't dealing with "minor" changes at that point now are we?


Seriously though, let me reiterate that because I think the fundamental question posed is flawed. You want us to come up with minor buffs to a character, to make them the best? I'm not sure if buffs that potent can even be considered minor at that point. To put Mario, or any character, above the threshold Fox currently sits at, yells anything but minor or healthy. The only way you could do that, is if you effectively cheated and did a 300+ list of small changes patch to patch where the character eventually progressed up to that level. The accumulative effect of those buffs though would be the same as much bigger buffs obviously.


Idk, you're asking for an incredibly grand idea lol. I could make a broken Mario with 5 minutes and some crayons. Making him the absolute best, with buffs so tiny you barely want to mention them in patch notes or to a friend? Ain't happening.

Mario is already the best character in the game

 

[Paradoxium]

My post wasn't about Fox vs Pikachu. Reread it!

Lucas: sounds all great and dandy, if you can completely stop all CC/roll attempts.

I know your post wasnt about fox vs pikachu, but you mentioned him in a small portion and i had to disagree with you.

 

[Strong Badam]

pika does not beat fox. it's not even like 55:44 fox close. it's at least 6:4 fox. especially since you don't get to go to FD anymore in a bo5 since there are more good stages.

 

[DMG]

This entire Fox vs Pika thing was irrelevant to begin with

 

[MagnesD3]

Anything vs. fox is irrelevant...

 

[Xebenkeck]

Fox/Falco in PAL Melee were still top tier. Fox/Falco in PM with PAL nerfs miiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight not be 1st/2nd but they'd still be incredibly obnoxious to play against and definitely top 4

Whats wrong with being 3rd or 4th best? The nerfs should make it so it's debateeable who is the best character.

Thats what good balance is, no one can agree on who is the best.

 

[Rarik]

The 3rd/4th part is really irrelevant to my argument here and I only acknowledge it because P:M's balance is close enough that it could cause someone else to be better as opposed to Melee where it didn't matter. The real point here is that they'd still be obnoxious as hell to play against, just with slightly less reward for having a good option in nearly every neutral situation.

 

[Phaiyte]

Fox still isn't winning tournaments, guys.

 

[ELI-mination]

i'm afraid of fox-from-the-future guys

 

[GHNeko]

The spacie nerf talk seriously needs to chill.

Buff and nerf talk in general needs to chill.

Tier list speculation deals with the characters of now, not what they might be.

Don't get this thread locked guys.

Being completely serious.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

AGT is the future. There's a whole world of untapped campy sleaze hidden there for Peach and the Links.

 

[ELI-mination]

I'm afraid of seriousness-from-the-future

 

[BJN39]

AGT is the future. There's a whole world of untapped campy sleaze hidden there for Peach and the Links.

Welp, Peach 4 1st place In-the-future then.

What are people thinking about sonic's current build? There hasn't been much talk about him yet, and all I see/hear is "Low tier"

 

[GunBlaze]

What are people thinking about sonic's current build? There hasn't been much talk about him yet, and all I see/hear is "Low tier"

Apparently, the nerf was too much, and many Sonic mains left him.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Tier list speculation deals with the characters of now, not what they might be.

mmk
Tier list:
Fox
everyone else

discuss?

 

[KayB]

Fox still isn't winning tournaments, guys.

There aren't many notable Fox players that enter tournaments either.

 

[DMG]

I let down the good glory of Fox when I play him. Not enough madness

 

[Archangel]

There aren't many notable Fox players that enter tournaments either.

o_O I'm going to go ahead and pretend this isn't a serious post.

 

[Nausicaa]

So...
Sonic is the best because nobody plays Fox, who is OP but Pika counters him on FD by going almost even with him, and therefore Peach, Link, Diddy, TL, etc, win everything because they can AGT which is better than electricity because Lucas can't absorb it with magnet?
Well, looks like I don't have to afraid of Lucas-from-the-future after all.

In other news.
Peeps like DK, Dedede, Ganon, etc (slow + big peeps) are kind of linear, but basically get free stocks if they ever work something out.
What's keeping them in it?
1) Short-term gimmicky cheese?
or
2) Viable long-term functionality?

They good, for NOW, but is Ganon-from-the-future scary... at all?

 

[Plum]

Is the Ganon in the present even scary?

 

[KayB]

Hey, anyone who received the VGBC newsletter email, can you post it somewhere? I want to see what it says.

 

[deadjames]

So...
Sonic is the best because nobody plays Fox, who is OP but Pika counters him on FD by going almost even with him, and therefore Peach, Link, Diddy, TL, etc, win everything because they can AGT which is better than electricity because Lucas can't absorb it with magnet?
Well, looks like I don't have to afraid of Lucas-from-the-future after all.

In other news.
Peeps like DK, Dedede, Ganon, etc (slow + big peeps) are kind of linear, but basically get free stocks if they ever work something out.
What's keeping them in it?
1) Short-term gimmicky cheese?
or
2) Viable long-term functionality?

They good, for NOW, but is Ganon-from-the-future scary... at all?

I think Ganon is scary now, imo a good Ganon player that is proficient with flame choke tech chases is the scariest thing to fight in P:M.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

DK has mobility and multiple ways to set up what he wants to do; those other characters don't.

 

[DMG]

In other news.
Peeps like DK, Dedede, Ganon, etc (slow + big peeps) are kind of linear, but basically get free stocks if they ever work something out.
What's keeping them in it?
1) Short-term gimmicky cheese?
or
2) Viable long-term functionality?

They good, for NOW, but is Ganon-from-the-future scary... at all?

DK has viable longer term traits. D3 probably doesn't, and Ganon is sort of inbetween.

DK is decently quick dash/running wise, which goes a long way to making up for his disadvantages. Having that framework allows him better opportunities for tech chasing, for getting the initial grab or approach, and for backing up as opponents come his way. Having strong kill options out of throws also can't hurt.

D3 is... something. Kind of slow. He has decent tools, but stuff doesn't flow together very well. The D3 gameplan doesn't involve some sick 0-death combo. Most of the time, you might get them offstage quick and go for an edgeguard, but that's usually it. He doesn't have the capability to link a ton of hits together, and although moves like Fair are quite impressive, he also tends to lack ridiculously good kill options. Again, if it's not an edgeguarding situation, you rarely hit a guy at 70-80% with a move and just totally oblitherate his stock.

Ganon is slow and conflicting as a character. Some of his best spacing/overall moves are in the air. But going to the air means you lose a ton of options and a lot of mobility. Mobility he can't afford to be giving away so freely. On the ground it's not much better besides trying to tilt people to death or cheese them. Ganon almost always has to commit to an option before the opponent does, otherwise his moves will get outsped or he will be acting late as they back up/change what they are doing. He's decent once he is in close range with the other character, but it's such a slow and deliberate process especially with some of the newer characters and the buffed state of projectiles overall.

 

[Plum]

DMG you just need to get better at throwing Gordos whenever you need them.

 

[DMG]

I pray and do the voodoo dance, and yet they never arrive on time. Maybe I need to slather more "RNG sauce" all over my body before playing D3.

 

[Plum]

Real talk.
I feel like DDD is in no lack of potential from a general design standpoint. Like, if you wanted to make DDD good while not having some weird polarizing trait that makes him the next Ike/Sonic/Lucario/whatever I think you totally could. When I play him though, which is actually quite often because I have a strange soft spot for him, it just feels like he was made without any real direction in mind. He plays like a hodgepodge of ideas that weren't quite fleshed out, or something just got lost in translation with him.
I don't know if that's actually the case, but being outside of the PMBR and looking in, that's what he feels like.

Ganon feels like he's just left behind. As a character he feels more fleshed out than DDD, but that's not to say he's without problems. He's an average character in Melee. Probably bare minimum of what you could consider "competitive" in Melee, although even then you have to stretch your definition a little bit. He has a some solid tools that he can work with, which is more than characters worse off than him can really say. Then you transition him over to PM, and he's mostly the same. The new stuff he has isn't really changing anything for him, and then you look at the environment around him and he's just stuck in the past relatively speaking. Falcon has the same issues imo, but the tools Falcon has to work with are just better than Ganon's (plus Falcon has some more room for cheese), so it's not quite so pronounced.

 

[AncientPancakes]

Right now i feel that Ganon, DDD, and Pikachu are "left behind".
I also believe that Ganon and DDD are easily in the bottom 5.

I don't know if Pikachu belongs in the bottom 5 or not, but to me he feels like an underwhelming and almost unfinished character.
The amount of work that he needs to do to be effective compared to other characters makes me think that he could use some changes that make him stand out more.

 

[Plum]

I get that feeling from Pikachu too, but he has more to work with in general.
I would love to see QAC be fleshed out into something really special. Like, that's kind of what everybody felt like it would be to begin with, and then you just kind of figured out that it does some kind of cool stuff, but none of it is really "defining" in the way that top characters tend to have one or two traits that define their character.
I didn't ever imagine Pikachu approaching with QAC, but I did always imagine Pikachu using it to link and extend stuff after he's already found his way in. Chase your DI down with good QA use, and then using the QAC for another aerial, or using the auto cancel QAC for a ground option, whatever. That would be so hype. At least for me, as somebody who doesn't play Pikachu but wants to see Pikachu do cool ****. Right now Pikachu just works REALLY hard to do what other characters can do for less work doesn't even get to look cool doing it . Although he does have cool ass goggles. ******* love goggles.

 

[Archangel]

Pikachu is actually quite amazing. Not top 10 by any stretch but I don't think Pikachu is bottom 5 worthy at all. Pikachu just isn't played alot because...well the character isn't any easier to play in PM then it is in Melee. You have to know how to use Pikachu in order to benefit from the buffs pika has obtained. Same could be said about luigi actually.

DDD and Ganon are too slow imo. I could see them settling in bottom 5...next to Sonic..

 

[GP&B]

There's a weird irony about Sonic being relegated to bottom next to low mobility characters. In a game based on Melee, it just sounds horribly wrong.