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Tier List Speculation

JesteRace

Smash Journeyman
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Eye-Oh-Wah
FWIW, there are alternate bomb jump setups that don't require upB, provided you have decently high percent. (AGT down into dair for instance)
Yeah, I know about that convoluted crap. Personally, I think Umbreon has the right idea with link. If all that was done and the bomb jump was fixed to where it stales after like, 3 on-stage uses instead of one, I'd be ecstatic.
 

JOE!

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Bomb jump all depends on the bomb's Hp, yes? Just lower it a little so its more cinsistent, its not like Link isn't hurting enough when he goes for the option of "blow myself up to recover"
 

Beorn

Smash Journeyman
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I've PSA'ed this. -1 percent from the first hit of up-b (4 to 3) +1 on last hit of up-b (6 to 7) Gives him 2 shots while also keeping the damage the same. It also has slightly more knockback. Feels very good.

On the subject of just adding 3.02 good stuff to this Link...

3.02 was a mess. 3.02 Link was an un-fun to fight (and imo unfun to play) mistake. The only things that made that Link so stupid were the fact that his rang was ridiculously fast and nearly safe on sheild, 3.02 tethers, and his bomb jump was infinite, while also gaining height rather than losing it with the fact that you could AGT up, then up-b. The actual character still had most of his current problems. Slow to come out, slow to end moves, bad mobility, and everything, but his absurd rang was horrendously ccable. There are a few things like a faster ftlit, faster utilt, stupid fast and ranged dash attack, as well as a near lagless zair that also made him pretty degenerate, but he was never as good of a character as M2k and band-wagoners thought he was. His rang was just an entire character by itself.

So, like much of 3.02, that Link and all of his janky **** needs to stay dead. I'm of the opinion that everything that has been done post 3.02 (besides the rebuffing of snake) are steps in the right direction, and I would love to see more of the dumb stuff, like Mario's recovery, or G&W's jump out of up-b, Wario as a whole, ect... get refined to the point of characters like Zss, or the incredibly well done current mewtwo (thank you Frozen).

Link needs to work first and formost. No one should have moves that are CCable until 999. His bomb jump needs fixing (currently the only character in the game with a bomb jump that can't do it forever). Things like his rang going over only select characters heads, or his nair not having full range until frame 30 like other similar nairs needs fixing. His grab needs fixing in more than one way. Stuff of that sort. Make the character function properly, then see if he actually needs any real buffs. I would love to help with this. Considering most of my proposed chanages pre-3.5 were actually implemented by the PMDT, and people seem to really like them, and feel that they helped Link out in places he was hurting, and considering I can do quite a bit of the work myself. I would like to help with this. (any pmdt-ers reading)

I will actually be going to Low tier city with the rest of the TN crew, so... I would like to discuss this, if possible, there.
 
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The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
My feelings on bite > waft are pretty simple.

I think bite is an incredible command grab, with or without waft. When you have a character with amazing aerial mobility and quick startup aerials with fair/nair, you open yourself amazing opportunities to tomahawk someone by threatening shield. Having the aerial mobility/weave ability that Wario has makes that even easier. A command grab saves you many many frames of feigning pressure while you are airborne, as you don't have to land to beat that shield, and can react to the shield immediately. With Wario's weave, getting a bite is just not that hard (not to mention its active frames I believe makes it beat spot dodges--Wario mains, correct me on this if i'm wrong).

No matter what, you are going to get great followups on bite, whether it be a tech chase, a shoulder, an awesome aerial combo/punish, a DACUS, whatever.

Let's compare bite against all of the other command grabs.

Swallow (kirby/DDD)
Ganon sideb (aerial/grounded variants)
Bowser Koopa Claw
Lucario's force palm
Ganon/Falcon upbs (if you want to count those)
Mewtwo's side b
Diddy's Side b
Yoshi's neutral b

All of those command grabs are huge commmitments and telegraphed without outs once you've started them.They all have startup, long end lag if they miss, small hitboxes that can be outright beaten by most moves. The exception that exists may be Diddy's Side b, since it leaves him slightly less helpless than the others mentioned, but the main negative point to diddy's side b is I guess, its actually a recovery option so if you hit him out of it, he is easier to gimp altogether.

Most of these command grabs have low level punishes that are assured, and higher damage punishes that are based on a read. You take ganon's side b as a good example, where side b to jab is guaranteed, but with a good enough read, you can get a Dash attack, an utilt, or even a charged smash attack/aerial combo. The opponent has a strong impact on the outcome based on DI, tech patterns, whatever.

What I don't like about Bite is that:

a. Wario's natural attributes makes bite easier to land than these other command grabs (high weave, low startup aerials in combination)

b. Wario gets bigger punishes not consistent with a (imo) reasonable risk/reward evaluation with Waft in the mix.

There's nothing wrong with the fact that Bite exists on Wario. Its actually a very clever way to give an aerially mobile character without massive hitboxes a great way to beat shield. I love the move. What i don't like is that once Waft is built up, Wario doesn't have to work for a read to use one of the strongest moves in his entire kit. He bites, you have to DI guess (which btw, is a guess. If you can't react to Shiek's 3.5 bthrow/dthrow, you DEFINITELY can't react to Wario's), and if you guess wrong, you get wafted.

In my honest opinion, I don't think any massive kills that require minimal reads should be relegated to coin flips--that is ALWAYS bad design. Normally, other strong moves that can kill out of a throw (thinking Marth's fthrow into fsmash) are highly position dependent, so you can pretty safely say your opponent will be trying to kill you close to the blastzone you are closest to. However, waft is so strong that it negates that cerebral part of the game that brings rise to reads/tells based on stage position, since Wario doesn't have to consider what side of the stage he's on once his opponent is at 70%. On any side, waft will kill a lot of opponents. Therefore, the DI against Bite is quite literally a coinflip into death, which is a scenario that presents itself 2 potentially 3 times in a match.

I know it seems to be a prevalent theme right now to say NZA salt, but when someone says something like Wario is the best designed character in the game, its anyone's prerogative to ask why, and they genuinely should be asking for clarification. At the very least, you can't say I haven't gone on length to describe why I think GnW is somewhat problematic, and now, why bite -> waft is. But that's fine, its the internet. If you want to boil it down to salt, you are welcome to. I personally think waft should either be made powerful and require a read to work properly, or it should be made weaker and have the guaranteed followups it has. I prefer a powerful metagame that maximizes interaction, and therefore, I prefer a read based powerful waft. In its current form, I personally don't think bite to waft makes much sense.

No matter which way I slice the game, I certainly don't see a world where bite to waft makes sense but Sheik's bthrowdthrow mixup doesn't.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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How is Link's Glide Toss game?

If it's bad, could we look into improving it?

Wouldn't it be a good way of giving Link more mobility, OoS, anti-pressure and combo options without changing him significantly, since it would still require the commitment of a bomb pull, and giving up stage control/outplaying the opponent in order to pull said bomb?

Are Glide Toss distances/utility dependent on friction or roll stats? So would it be possible to improve Link's Glide Toss without buffing his wavedash/mobility? [This question is predicated on the assumption that Link's niche is still slow-combo-food but with tools to mediate that]

Wouldn't Glide Toss Bomb -> Upsmash be a cool combo?

Couldn't we then balance bomb properties around the Glide Toss options so as to differentiate them more from rang?

Wouldn't this really fit in with Link's "tool for every situation" archetype and give him a reasonable but not quick-fix way to deal even with his shortcomings?

Shouldn't Link have good item stats, being one of the few characters that can make items? Even Dedede gets mobility options from Waddles.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Link has great item stats, and can do plenty with his bombs. He can already combo bomb into upsmash with dacus, he doesn't need glide toss. It would do practically nothing for him.
 

JesteRace

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Lol Link having Dedede's glide toss would be kinda fun, but super dumb. What about AGT? Link can AGT left or right too, but he just doesn't move very much. Is there a way to make it so he moves the same distance no matter what direction he AGT's? Cause that could open up options for mix-ups and improve his aerial mobility, I think.
 

Hylian

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Not even OoS? I've heard that Diddy has a great OoS game because of Glide Toss.

Legitimately asking to be educated on this
..You can throw the bomb OoS and then dacus lol. Glide toss does not give you a good OoS game, it's too slow.
 

TheGravyTrain

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Can verify, Diddy nanner glide toss OoS is the only OoS option in the game that can punish spaced bubble on shield, assuming frame perfection on both sides. Problem is bombs have timers, but maybe that's a way to balance it.
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,298
My feelings on bite > waft are pretty simple.

I think bite is an incredible command grab, with or without waft. When you have a character with amazing aerial mobility and quick startup aerials with fair/nair, you open yourself amazing opportunities to tomahawk someone by threatening shield. Having the aerial mobility/weave ability that Wario has makes that even easier. A command grab saves you many many frames of feigning pressure while you are airborne, as you don't have to land to beat that shield, and can react to the shield immediately. With Wario's weave, getting a bite is just not that hard (not to mention its active frames I believe makes it beat spot dodges--Wario mains, correct me on this if i'm wrong).

No matter what, you are going to get great followups on bite, whether it be a tech chase, a shoulder, an awesome aerial combo/punish, a DACUS, whatever.

Let's compare bite against all of the other command grabs.

Swallow (kirby/DDD)
Ganon sideb (aerial/grounded variants)
Bowser Koopa Claw
Lucario's force palm
Ganon/Falcon upbs (if you want to count those)
Mewtwo's side b
Diddy's Side b
Yoshi's neutral b

All of those command grabs are huge commmitments and telegraphed without outs once you've started them.They all have startup, long end lag if they miss, small hitboxes that can be outright beaten by most moves. The exception that exists may be Diddy's Side b, since it leaves him slightly less helpless than the others mentioned, but the main negative point to diddy's side b is I guess, its actually a recovery option so if you hit him out of it, he is easier to gimp altogether.

Most of these command grabs have low level punishes that are assured, and higher damage punishes that are based on a read. You take ganon's side b as a good example, where side b to jab is guaranteed, but with a good enough read, you can get a Dash attack, an utilt, or even a charged smash attack/aerial combo. The opponent has a strong impact on the outcome based on DI, tech patterns, whatever.

What I don't like about Bite is that:

a. Wario's natural attributes makes bite easier to land than these other command grabs (high weave, low startup aerials in combination)

b. Wario gets bigger punishes not consistent with a (imo) reasonable risk/reward evaluation with Waft in the mix.

There's nothing wrong with the fact that Bite exists on Wario. Its actually a very clever way to give an aerially mobile character without massive hitboxes a great way to beat shield. I love the move. What i don't like is that once Waft is built up, Wario doesn't have to work for a read to use one of the strongest moves in his entire kit. He bites, you have to DI guess (which btw, is a guess. If you can't react to Shiek's 3.5 bthrow/dthrow, you DEFINITELY can't react to Wario's), and if you guess wrong, you get wafted.

In my honest opinion, I don't think any massive kills that require minimal reads should be relegated to coin flips--that is ALWAYS bad design. Normally, other strong moves that can kill out of a throw (thinking Marth's fthrow into fsmash) are highly position dependent, so you can pretty safely say your opponent will be trying to kill you close to the blastzone you are closest to. However, waft is so strong that it negates that cerebral part of the game that brings rise to reads/tells based on stage position, since Wario doesn't have to consider what side of the stage he's on once his opponent is at 70%. On any side, waft will kill a lot of opponents. Therefore, the DI against Bite is quite literally a coinflip into death, which is a scenario that presents itself 2 potentially 3 times in a match.

I know it seems to be a prevalent theme right now to say NZA salt, but when someone says something like Wario is the best designed character in the game, its anyone's prerogative to ask why, and they genuinely should be asking for clarification. At the very least, you can't say I haven't gone on length to describe why I think GnW is somewhat problematic, and now, why bite -> waft is. But that's fine, its the internet. If you want to boil it down to salt, you are welcome to. I personally think waft should either be made powerful and require a read to work properly, or it should be made weaker and have the guaranteed followups it has. I prefer a powerful metagame that maximizes interaction, and therefore, I prefer a read based powerful waft. In its current form, I personally don't think bite to waft makes much sense.

No matter which way I slice the game, I certainly don't see a world where bite to waft makes sense but Sheik's bthrowdthrow mixup doesn't.

So the linkage is not the problem, it is the combination of the guaranteed power of the waft with the relative ease of the bite. If bite were harder to land it would be ok, but that affects other areas. If Bite sent the opponent in a way where Wario could not get a waft followup it would be ok, but that affects other areas. If Waft took longer to charge that might be ok, but then he also does less cool things with it elsewhere. If Waft were weaker and only killed positionally it would be ok, and this would affect his game elsewhere in ways that are probably ok. If waft charge were lost on death it would be ok AND provide some counterplay to the move.

I certainly agree that Sheik's mixup is no more outrageous than Wario's, but I don't think either are really a problem. I think both could be changed in ways that get rid of the excessive power without removing what makes them good and cool.
 

eideeiit

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Now I know nothing, but I have a hard time believing that the hitbox of waft and the stats of bite couldn't be adjusted so that Wario gets nearly guaranteed nairs or fairs but not wafts.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
So the linkage is not the problem, it is the combination of the guaranteed power of the waft with the relative ease of the bite. If bite were harder to land it would be ok, but that affects other areas. If Bite sent the opponent in a way where Wario could not get a waft followup it would be ok, but that affects other areas. If Waft took longer to charge that might be ok, but then he also does less cool things with it elsewhere. If Waft were weaker and only killed positionally it would be ok, and this would affect his game elsewhere in ways that are probably ok. If waft charge were lost on death it would be ok AND provide some counterplay to the move.

I certainly agree that Sheik's mixup is no more outrageous than Wario's, but I don't think either are really a problem. I think both could be changed in ways that get rid of the excessive power without removing what makes them good and cool.
There are infinite number of ways to balance any game mechanic. Its easier to point to a problem than the best solution. IMO, in this case, bite > waft is a problem because

1. having powerful kill move come at the end of an impossible to react to 50/50 guess is not good intrinsically because it makes the huge success/failure of combat either luck based or way too heavily rewarding for the aggressor (since, he can opt NOT to use it and punish you differently if you DI guessed properly).

2. having a powerful finisher at the end of an air command grab violates the rules of risk/reward established with other command grabs in the game, and are therefore not fitting within the landscape of the game unless the character can justify a need for it by having weaknesses elsewhere. For example, Ness/Ganon are allowed strong combo options off of dthrow that combo at almost all percents because they have bad grab range/mobility, and can justify getting big punishes when they do land a grab.

So yeah, balance wise, the solution can be a lot of things. It can be balanced either by making Waft less powerful, making Bite harder to land so it can justify as massive a punish, slowing down the animation of bite so people can react DI better, changing the bite throw angle so it still has its followups but can't use it into Bite, etc.

Personally, I think you can tweak values of bite or waft so you can keep all of your present options but lose the possibility of bite to waft, which would attempt to ONLY impact that specific combination of moves.
 

Idostuff

Smash Apprentice
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Am I wrong in saying that Link is worse than Tink in everyway?

Just by virtue of how this game works. The small fast one is always better than the slow "strong" one. Especially when the fast guys aren't actually weaker.

Tinks bomb and rang work better in conjunction with each other than Link. Tink's single hit smash attacks actually work. Plus I feel he actually has a better recovery with the agt bomb jump plus a wall jump.

I haven't played Link since early 3.5 and I never played Tink. So obviously I'm not an expert on either, but this is just things I've noticed from watching high Lvl players and general speculated tier list placings.
 
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JOE!

Smash Hero
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It does bother me to an extent that slow characters have worse KO options than fast ones. Like cool, Ganon has a Nair that secures kills around 100% or so. Sonic does too...
 

TheGravyTrain

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Its amazing how much this thread goes in circles. This was all discussed back in the "poor heavies" thing awhile back. Its also sad how quick chars also combo into their kills way better.
 

NWRL

Smash Ace
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Give it a week and we'll complain about Ike, and then Roy, and then Fox. In that order.
 

steelguttey

mei is bei
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gee guys, we sure do talk about stuff alot. its almost like the game has obvious problems that havent been fixed yet!
 

DrinkingFood

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It does bother me to an extent that slow characters have worse KO options than fast ones. Like cool, Ganon has a Nair that secures kills around 100% or so. Sonic does too...
what, are you comparing ganon's kill options to sonic lol?
sonic doesn't have a fair that's safe on shield, CC, and kills at 80 near the edge
or a bair that does the same thing at 90
or a uair that does the same thing at like 110
or a dair that does the same thing at like 80-120 depending on fall speed
or a lingering down-b that covers tech options with kill power
Not to mention these all send you offstage like 30-40% earlier to be subject to ganon's incredible option coverage against recoveries thanks to hit long limbs+large hitbox+1 hit equals dead offstage
Like regardless of your opinion of ganon's overall viability, kill power/options is not something he lacks lol
sonic only has a few tools for killing that are all more limited than ganon's, ganon's kill power is a threat in every direction
 
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JOE!

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True, I was just kinda popping moves out of my noggin, but my point is that fast characters have moves that KO at decent % already, sorta like how Sonic's Bair can KO around 100%ish IIRC, which is similar to a heavyweight's aerial and so on.
 

Narelex

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 6, 2012
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Bowser Fsmash worse then Fox Upsmash. Why is this a thing? The move takes a literal year to come out, why shouldn't it demolish people?

Discuss
 
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Apollo Ali

Smash Journeyman
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add ddd f-smash to the list. altho its got range and can sometimes catch people playing dumb sometimes, idk. it sucks.
 

Life

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While we're complaining about individual moves being bad, Charizard's dthrow has 19 frames of endlag after the opponent gets to insta-tech, meaning he can read, say, a neutral tech and then get at most a jab (3 frame window) or grab (1 frame before they can act, plus whatever the startup is on their fastest option (and another frame if that option is a hitbox like shine because grab armor lol), and unlike jab loses to no tech if you mess that up) and everything else is too slow to beat shield. In fact, because of the huge endlag, Charizard can't even read on a techchase, only react. I understand wanting to not just let him dsmash or DD-react or whatever for free, but 19 is a really excessive amount of endlag to have on a throw of this type.
 
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DrinkingFood

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While we're complaining about individual moves being bad, Charizard's dthrow has 19 frames of endlag after the opponent gets to insta-tech, meaning he can read, say, a neutral tech and then get at most a jab (3 frame window) or grab (1 frame before they can act, plus whatever the startup is on their fastest option (and another frame if that option is a hitbox like shine because grab armor lol)) and everything else is too slow to beat shield. In fact, because of the huge endlag, Charizard can't even read on a techchase, only react. I understand wanting to not just let him dsmash or DD-react or whatever for free, but 19 is a really excessive amount of endlag to have on a throw of this type.
Reacting to tech chases is strictly better than reading, although option coverage is better than either
Grab on tech in place isn't actually a 1 frame window since it beats almost anything on their first active frame, it would be a two frame window, if you start grab frame 20 it hits frame 26, if you start grab frame 21 it hits frame 27 which is their first actionable frame but they can't beat grab that frame so it doesn't matter unless they have frame one invul (puff/bowser/not sure who else) and only if they are frame-perfect AND you aren't at the same time
Even disregarding grab off dthrow, getting jab is more than enough since it's a launcher that beats ASDI down lol
Keep in mind this is on a character with an fthrow/bthrow DI mix-up on light characters and a kill throw that kills even earlier with platforms available
Keep in mind it's okay for characters to have bad throws
 
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shairn

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There are infinitely worse throws than Charizard's dthrow
It's pretty good
 
D

Deleted member

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link does have one major benefit over tink in that he doesnt drown after swimming for 30 seconds. in terms of smash though, nope tink is just straight better lol
 

Narelex

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Everybody gets hit by fsmash at the ledge

Everybody
What does that say about the state of their hands? :bubblebobble:

Just because a bad move catches people occasionally, doesn't make it usable in the majority of situations. Why it works as often as it does /shrug
 

Rachman

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tink is godlike. Tink is just like perfect besides the bug imo. Red1 has made me a believer in daddy link, still think he's overall worse tho. The changes seem really good tho
 

steelguttey

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thats a good thing to keep in mind but

we cant look at it in a vacuum like that. bowser's fsmash was ok to be useless in 3.5 because he had kill moves that were very good and much faster than fsmash but now idk
 
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