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Tier List Speculation

Mr.Pickle

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However my testing with Pit always came out as 5 frame jumpsquat for him. So I'm like 99% sure he does have a frame 5 jumpsquat, actually.
I can confirm it 100% for you through psa that it's 5 for pit.

Also on the subject of wario's design, I'll preface what I'm about to say by saying I've been playing wario for 2 going on 3 years, and fight against him quite a bit since our region has 5 or so warios in it, so I have plenty of experience to help form my opinion. So honestly, I think he's poorly designed, I think he has a couple conflicting aspects that don't match his character archetype, and I feel like he has more than a few degenerate qualities about him that make him difficult, or potentially annoying, to fight against. I think also that he is easily top 10 in this patch, and that he doesn't have any really horrible matchups, there are some he loses but they aren't that bad. I can elaborate more on my opinion of him, but only if it's desired.
 
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Narelex

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I just find the differing opinions on certain MU's, Incredibly fascinating.

Really shows how different playstyles and gameplans clashing can affect how a MU can feel.
 

Rachman

be water my friend
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I can confirm it 100% for you through psa that it's 5 for pit.

Also on the subject of wario's design, I'll preface what I'm about to say by saying I've been playing wario for 2 going on 3 years, and fight against him quite a bit since our region has 5 or so warios in it, so I have plenty of experience to help form my opinion. So honestly, I think he's poorly designed, I think he has a couple conflicting aspects that don't match his character archetype, and I feel like he has more than a few degenerate qualities about him that make him difficult, or potentially annoying, to fight against. I think also that he is easily top 10 in this patch, and that he doesn't have any really horrible matchups, there are some he loses but they aren't that bad. I can elaborate more on my opinion of him, but only if it's desired.
I'd like to learn more about Wario and your opinions of him. Very interesting character imo and I'm finding it hard to formulate an opinion on him
 

Jacob29

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Strong Bad said (in PMS iirc) it would be added and was an oversight.

This is one of the reasons I'm iffy on the P:M changelist. Certain important things tend not to be added.

Changed to be more like Melee? Used to be ~15-16 before I think?

Edit - Melee is like, 8.
Huh. Didn't notice he had mentioned it before. My b.

Yeah it was apparently 16 before, Melee is 8, and now someone tells me it's 11, but Strong Bad says 12. Idk lmao
 

Mr.Pickle

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I'd like to learn more about Wario and your opinions of him. Very interesting character imo and I'm finding it hard to formulate an opinion on him
Well overall I'll just warn you that this post is going to be mostly negative, and while I love the character to death and will never stop playing him, his more degenerate attributes weigh heavily on my mind.

The idea of wario is very interesting. With an aerial mobility value of 0.33, which jiggly has .28 and the next character zamus has a value .1, so besides jiggly his mobility in the air is better than everyone's else by a large amount. Both jiggly and wario have frame 5 jump squats, but where it gets different is he only has 2 jumps, so he has way more commitment with his aerial spacing game than her. He has no projectiles, and not a lot of big meaty moves, so he has to open his opponent up with aerial weaving shenanigans. Once he gets in he hits extremely hard to make up for the fact he doesn't have any really meaty moves to force actions in neutral. He's also got an amazing tech chase game, with his amazing grab and options out of said grab, and his ground game is actually being pretty decent, which is another thing jiggly doesn't have. Add in aerial grab nonsense and just being weird, you have a fairly interesting character, but then you take a closer look at him.

So the first thing that I feel like doesn't match his character archetype is his extreme weight. He weighs in at 107, making him the 8th heaviest character in the game. Now yes, the character is a little pudgy, but 8th heaviest? It doesn't make a lot of sense design wise to have such a mobile and floaty character in the air to be so heavy, he deserves to be around falcon weight, but being in the same weight class as ganon is a little much.

The next thing you'll notice is he actually has a dash dance, unlike his counter part jiggly. In fact, his initial run velocity value, which is what I assume is the leading factor to dash dance effectiveness, is the same as ike's, is faster than mario's, and is .06 less than roy. Now to give it perspective, jiggly's value is 1.1, where wario's is 1.55, that is a significant difference in dd speed for a character that's already faster in the air and who's heavier. Of course I'm not going to argue that it's the greatest, lol sonic has that tittle without doubt with a value of 4, his is definitely not bad, but to me, it doesn't fit him considering his aerial mobility.

From here on his other degenerate attributes are not as noticeable, but a lot of small things add up, I'll try to list the main ones quickly. His up b still has odd properties to it that lead extremely odd situations, like falling out of the move with enormous amounts of hitstun. Side b's hitbox increase size at the end of the animation is inconsistent. Because of how significantly larger it gets and that it's a forward moving move, and because interpolation is a thing, catching people when you clearly ran past them is a thing. Nair is extremely multi purpose, to the point where you can beat some characters with just that move, and imo might be one of the best nairs in the game. Waft has absolutely no counter play to it, he kinda gets it despite what you do and doesn't have to worry about losing it. Making it to where he loses it on death is probably the best way to balance that out, would also make the 50/50 on bite a little more legit. I have a negative opinion on bite, but it used to be much worse so I won't complain.

So in short, wario is interesting because he's a weird jigglypuff that has a ground game and more commitment to his aerial stuff, which is even more extreme than jiggs, but he has some conflicting attributes that cause him to play the game however he wants it, and not how he should play it.
 

InfinityCollision

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Quick correction: Wario's initial dash velocity is 1.3. Ike's is 2.0; they share the same terminal dash/run velocity of 1.55. Mario and Roy's initial dash velocities are 1.5 and 1.4, respectively. Sonic's is 1.7; while all of the aforementioned characters accelerate or decelerate to their terminal velocities within a few frames, Sonic's acceleration is delayed such that he hits maximum run speed at a later point in time.
 

Strong Badam

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Yeah, his dash is quite poor. As of 3.6, his dash is actually worse than Bower's. Initial: 1.3 Terminal: 1.55 compared to Bowser's Initial: 1.3 Terminal: 1.65.
 

Life

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So in short, wario is interesting because he's a weird jigglypuff that has a ground game and more commitment to his aerial stuff, which is even more extreme than jiggs, but he has some conflicting attributes that cause him to play the game however he wants it, and not how he should play it.
Counterpoint: While I'm no Wario expert, doesn't having a clear optimal play pattern ultimately make the game much more repetitive? Different characters need to have different strengths or everyone feels the same; but if a character can only do one or two things, this will lead to, one, very polar matchups determined by the other character's ability to deal with those one or two things, and two, stale play. See also Ivysaur and her old bair--she had one really good tool left after her old nerfs, and characters that weren't fazed by it ran right over her.

The #1 player on our PR quit when 3.6b came out for that exact reason, actually. Said he felt he was just playing the same game over and over again.

So if Wario is a heavy with great air mobility, that's a great identity to have, but having okay ground movement (but not ground movement better than characters that explicitly specialize in it such as Falcon and Sonic--and it isn't better than those, so he's not stepping on their toes) will help him against characters that can knock him out of the air easily (swordies come to mind). Likewise, Waft's role is to give projectile-heavy characters like Samus an incentive to go after Wario since his own approach options aren't particularly safe.

That's not to say your change suggestions aren't good ideas (Waft incentivizes the opponent for approaching and they should be rewarded by resetting the Waft timer on kill, I could get behind that--although the timer would need shortened a bit to compensate), but that you might want to reconsider exactly what you're asking for.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Counterpoint: While I'm no Wario expert, doesn't having a clear optimal play pattern ultimately make the game much more repetitive? Different characters need to have different strengths or everyone feels the same; but if a character can only do one or two things, this will lead to, one, very polar matchups determined by the other character's ability to deal with those one or two things, and two, stale play. See also Ivysaur and her old bair--she had one really good tool left after her old nerfs, and characters that weren't fazed by it ran right over her.

The #1 player on our PR quit when 3.6b came out for that exact reason, actually. Said he felt he was just playing the same game over and over again.

So if Wario is a heavy with great air mobility, that's a great identity to have, but having okay ground movement (but not ground movement better than characters that explicitly specialize in it such as Falcon and Sonic--and it isn't better than those, so he's not stepping on their toes) will help him against characters that can knock him out of the air easily (swordies come to mind). Likewise, Waft's role is to give projectile-heavy characters like Samus an incentive to go after Wario since his own approach options aren't particularly safe.

That's not to say your change suggestions aren't good ideas (Waft incentivizes the opponent for approaching and they should be rewarded by resetting the Waft timer on kill, I could get behind that--although the timer would need shortened a bit to compensate), but that you might want to reconsider exactly what you're asking for.
You don't have to be a wario expert to ask that question, and it's good that you did. There's nothing wrong with questioning something and trying to see the other side of things, as long as you're respectful and you point is clear.

To a certain extent, I suppose that it can get a little repetitive when your character excels in a specific area, but has trouble in some, but that's what it means to be a balanced character, you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are characters that have this quality about them, and if it tells you anything, those characters are generally perceived as being top tier. If you want a balanced character, you have to take into account how much that character excels in that area, and balance it with a weakness accordingly. Giving a character that excels extremely well in certain areas the ability to do decently in areas that are perceived to be problem areas, gives rise to a character that doesn't have a clear quality to play against, but has plenty or resources to play with against his opponent. By all means I don't think wario's dd should be as bad as puff's, and it should be an option available to him, but being better than mario's and almost being as good as roy's is a little ridiculous to me.

Also how does it give incentive for the opponent to approach? There is absolutely no way they can effect waft in any way, it happens in spite of them, and wario doesn't need it to kill, he has amazing kill potential. In the hypothetical scenario of him losing it on death, I could see an adjustment to it's timer, but it would have to be heavily tested to make sure it's not canceling the change out.
 
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Mr.Pickle

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I stand corrected about the value of wario's dd, I'm still re learning psa so mistakes will be made. Everyone can be a buster sometimes, but my opinion still stands currently, I'll be reviewing everything later today to make sure though.
 

JOE!

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The only thing that bugs me with Wario is how he just sorta gets the fart for free. Unlike Ivy, he doesn't have to charge or sweet spot moves and unlike jiggs it's not hard to hit a fart+nowhere near as punishable. He just sorta gets a free super KO once or twice a match.
 

tasteless gentleman

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"I believe we need to keep the changes to a minimum for most/maybe only half, of the cast and focus on buffing up the crappy Jigglypuff, Bowser, Gannon, DDD,and Ness level characters, and giving the "boring" characters like Kirby and Link something unique and quit freaking changing everything and resetting the meta every six months"


Yea can we stop doing that? like seriously, meta changing patches suck
 

Life

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You don't have to be a wario expert to ask that question, and it's good that you did. There's nothing wrong with questioning something and trying to see the other side of things, as long as you're respectful and you point is clear.

To a certain extent, I suppose that it can get a little repetitive when your character excels in a specific area, but has trouble in some, but that's what it means to be a balanced character, you can't have your cake and eat it too. There are characters that have this quality about them, and if it tells you anything, those characters are generally perceived as being top tier. If you want a balanced character, you have to take into account how much that character excels in that area, and balance it with a weakness accordingly. Giving a character that excels extremely well in certain areas the ability to do decently in areas that are perceived to be problem areas, gives rise to a character that doesn't have a clear quality to play against, but has plenty or resources to play with against his opponent. By all means I don't think wario's dd should be as bad as puff's, and it should be an option available to him, but being better than mario's and almost being as good as roy's is a little ridiculous to me.

Also how does it give incentive for the opponent to approach? There is absolutely no way they can effect waft in any way, it happens in spite of them, and wario doesn't need it to kill, he has amazing kill potential. In the hypothetical scenario of him losing it on death, I could see an adjustment to it's timer, but it would have to be heavily tested to make sure it's not canceling the change out.
1. I suppose. Just figured maybe my perception on what Wario's trying to do is a little rough considering I don't play the character myself. Thanks tho.

2. The character that comes to mind for me is PM Falco. He has one of the weakest recoveries in the game, in a meta where just about everyone has at least one tool that lets them take advantage of it. But aside from a couple minor nerfs relative to Melee his onstage game is still astounding. It's pretty much his niche: very strong onstage, one screwup near the ledge and he's dead. But his recovery, while weak, is not entirely free: provided he can DI a strong hit high enough and/or save his jump, he still has a couple mixups out of sideB. This is what I mean by a non-dominating weakness: it's certainly a weak point in the kit, but not so weak that matchups come down to whether a character can gimp Falco or not (everyone can unless Falco outguesses them).

3. Waft forces people to approach because approaching leads to shorter stocks and shorter games, leading to fewer Wafts. If a character tries to hard camp Wario, they might tack on a decent amount of safe percent, but the extra chances to Waft will (no pun intended) come back to bite them.
 

Narelex

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"I believe we need to keep the changes to a minimum for most/maybe only half, of the cast and focus on buffing up the crappy Jigglypuff, Bowser, Gannon, DDD,and Ness level characters, and giving the "boring" characters like Kirby and Link something unique and quit freaking changing everything and resetting the meta every six months"


Yea can we stop doing that? like seriously, meta changing patches suck
Ness is crappy? Since when?

You clearly need to DJC harder if you think that.
 

DrinkingFood

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Wario isn't necessarily more committed in the air then Jiggs; his much higher FF speed and higher quicker double jump means he does way more with his one jump then Jiggs would do with one. He can get to platforms quicker, follow up vertical combos, double jump out of the way of anti-air attempts, has way better tomahawks, etc.
Overall he also isn't nearly as weak to aggressive shielding as puff is due to his dair, bite, better fast fall speed, better grounded movement and move set. To me wario is a way better Jiggs lol
 

Boiko

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I don't think that Ness is bad, per se. But he needs some help. He has more well defined weaknesses than a majority of the cast:

1.) Very bad combo weight, with a very slow second jump as his primary escape option that isn't little boy arms nair
2.) Mediocre recovery complete with bad hit boxes, a required projectile that will diminish when coming in contact with a separate hurt box, and 20 frames of landing lag
3.) No answer to CC or shields, which seems to be a trend with most characters, buuut
4.) One of the worst grab ranges in the game and no form of fast grounded mobility to compensate for his poor grab range
5.) If you accidentally side b off stage, you're dead, because the IASA is frame 58
6.) If you side b on stage, the projectile is created on frame 20 and goes a very short distance and the IASA is a long time after
6b.) Anyone with half a brain can buffer a roll or SDI out of the pillar if they're hit by it
7.) No reliable ways to kill floaties short of a hard set up or up smash at 150%
8.) No answer to pressure

Although, he does have great combos when he does get in. :drshrug:

He should keep some of his weaknesses, of course. But he needs help in the other areas. I know that when I list all of them it seems worse than it actually is. But those are just some areas to consider.

Honestly, Ness can be remedied pretty easily without changing too much about him or his core play style.
 

Jacob29

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Would making PK Fire push people upwards help?

Also make Ness' grab hit higher up along with that. Make the PK Fire strong enough to stop you being able to sdi downwards into a roll.

So you have to jump out of it, or generally be in the air. Would Ness be able to take advantage of that?
 
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Boiko

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Not really because you either commit to the grab or the aerial option. Not much reward for hitting one of the slowest projectiles in the game.
 

JesteRace

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So, I really enjoy Link this patch. The mobility buff was a godsend, and a couple moves work a little better. I don't think the rang nerf was necessary, but I understand and roll with it. Anyway, I feel Link is well-rounded and not nearly as bad as people are saying, but I agree he's not there yet. Mostly, he still has jack for options against heavy pressure. Question is, how do you give Link tools to deal with spacies without making him ********?
 

LupinX

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I think Mario right now is the most ( or 2nd) versatile character in PM right now.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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So, I really enjoy Link this patch. The mobility buff was a godsend, and a couple moves work a little better. I don't think the rang nerf was necessary, but I understand and roll with it. Anyway, I feel Link is well-rounded and not nearly as bad as people are saying, but I agree he's not there yet. Mostly, he still has jack for options against heavy pressure. Question is, how do you give Link tools to deal with spacies without making him ********?
Welcome to why link has been bad in every smash game 101. It's hard to make slow characters good without giving them dumb stuff, especially ones that don't have great OoS options. The simple answer: normalize moves and make him faster. It's not quite that simple though.
 
D

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Welcome to why link has been bad in every smash game 101. It's hard to make slow characters good without giving them dumb stuff, especially ones that don't have great OoS options. The simple answer: normalize moves and make him faster. It's not quite that simple though.
actually it is, last night i told sethlon ryker strongbad lunchables that link would be easy to fix, do 3.02 link where his moves actually worked, 3.5 zair boomerang and throws to normalize the jank, and his improved 3.6 run speed. link's entire MU spread is that he's fine vs slower characters and gets run over by the faster ones, and you cant really change his combo weight without seriously disrupting the identity and ethos of the character. but you can at least make him more competent at feeling like a high tier himself as an opponent and letting the player decide how to be handle the MU with tools that actually work. and this stuff has all been public release so we know it's not degenerate in any way. pretty sure we could do this and fix link for the final release in literally 1 day of work.
 
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Hylian

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A lot of his 3.02 moves were worse than 3.6 aside from dash attack and upsmash. Those are the only two that were better. The rest are better in 3.6.

Dash attack/upsmash happened to be his best tools against spacies though. Those being worse hurts him a lot in those match-ups/fast fallers in general.
 
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D

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A lot of his 3.02 moves were worse than 3.6 aside from dash attack and upsmash. Those are the only two that were better. The rest are better in 3.6.

Dash attack/upsmash happened to be his best tools against spacies though. Those being worse hurts him a lot in those match-ups/fast fallers in general.
hm did not know. well you get the idea, just take stuff thats already existed and was fine and frankenstein those traits together. it just seems like such an easy and obviously good solution, idk
 

Hylian

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Actually uptilt was better in 3.02 as well I forgot about utilt because I stopped using it lol.

Yeah I kind of agree. I also thought rang was fine in 3.5 as well though *shrugs*. I stopped contributing to balance aside from IC's awhile ago.
 
D

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Actually uptilt was better in 3.02 as well I forgot about utilt because I stopped using it lol.

Yeah I kind of agree. I also thought rang was fine in 3.5 as well though *shrugs*. I stopped contributing to balance aside from IC's awhile ago.
i voted to keep 3.5 boomerang in my post above ^

i wish you'd get back into it tbh. i dont agree with you very often in terms of final conclusions, but you have the right mind for it and you bring good ideas to the table all the same. it's good to have people challenge you occasionally.
 

JesteRace

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Please give me back 3.5 rang. And if I'm not mistaken, using upb on stage one time isn't supposed to ruin the bomb jump recovery?
 

Life

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Please give me back 3.5 rang. And if I'm not mistaken, using upb on stage one time isn't supposed to ruin the bomb jump recovery?
FWIW, there are alternate bomb jump setups that don't require upB, provided you have decently high percent. (AGT down into dair for instance)
 

Hylian

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FWIW, there are alternate bomb jump setups that don't require upB, provided you have decently high percent. (AGT down into dair for instance)
This doesn't gain you any height though lol.
 

DiZZ

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So Im almost entirely certain dk is the 2nd worst character statistically, Myself and another top dk from my region mojohnbo have worked together to create an overall mu spread for him its on the dk boards if you want to take a look at it.
He needs some reworking and tweaking done to his design
 
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