Tier List Speculation

[Narpas_sword]

It's required for them to be so disjointed from him?
I know those lead to the actual Raptor Boost attack happening but it don't see why they need to be placed where they are.

They're the hit boxes that detect an enemy in range of raptor boost not the hitting ones though, right?

 

[JOE!]

But yeah, how can we even conceptually help out heavies without either nerfing lightweight characters or making them too polarized?

 

[Ripple]

What you actually need to do for fatties is either give them better recoveries so their weight actually means something since having possibly 2 of worst recoveries in the game counteracts their weight completely or give them safe approach options or fast and strong kill moves

 

[Bazkip]

They're the hit boxes that detect an enemy in range of raptor boost not the hitting ones though, right?

Yeah, I just think they should match where he is better. Middle one's fine...move the top one back to his hand. Idk what to do with the bottom one. Also move it back a little, I guess.

 

[AceGamer]

How about making the fatties moves do more shield damage? Not on the exact same level as Bowser but at least enough that it will make people think twice before shielding an a attack from a fatty??

 

[Deleted member]

What you actually need to do for fatties is either give them better recoveries so their weight actually means something since having possibly 2 of worst recoveries in the game counteracts their weight completely or give them safe approach options or fast and strong kill moves

Are we counting rob as a fatty?
lets buff robs recovery, give him better approaches out of his air dash, and even BETTER killing options

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM I'VE GOT A KNIFE AND IM NOT AFRAID TO USE IT ON MYSELF


also Bazkip I thought it was weight dependent, I'll check PSA really quick

 

[JOE!]

Wait, zard/ddd/rob bad recoveries? I know you're talking about bowser and dk but yeah. I think each one needs something different.

 

[jtm94]

Bowser's recovery is pretty bad, but he has the weight to never really need to rely on it. It's like how Roy's recovery isn't godly, but with DI and his fall speed he can always stay within 1 UpB length from the ledge without using double jump.

I don't think being larger/heavier is really that much of a problem. We have ROB and DDD that can compete, DK has good MUs on relevant characters, Bowser can kind of pull through some MUs, Ganon is Ganon. It isn't like all the bigger characters are considered low tier.

 

[MLGF]

I'm for buffing heavyweights so long as that does not include things like 3.0 Nairzard.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Yeah, I just think they should match where he is better. Middle one's fine...move the top one back to his hand. Idk what to do with the bottom one. Also move it back a little, I guess.

But they dont hurt you.
They tell the move to initiate it's next step if an enemy is in them.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser's recovery is pretty bad, but he has the weight to never really need to rely on it..

Uh, you know that's not how it works, right?

Get grabbed because your neutral game sucks -> get forced offstage -> your terrible recovery becomes relevant pretty damn quickly.

 

[Podoboo]

I don't feel that heavies are as weak as many people say they are. It feels to me at least that it's a preconception that carries over from Melee.

 

[Soft Serve]

When the game is about positioning and being able to take/control a position on the stage, and by extension of this it favors consistenty fast movement, Like dash dancing, over short bursts of movement with set up, like perfect wavelands, slower characters are going to have a rough time in a lot of MUs. Zard (and DK, imo) is really fast but doesn't have a lot of tools to create space for himself, but Samus/ROB do, and so do DDD and Yoshi to a lesser extent. I think the problem is that when you have all these faster characters that take/control space better than you and kill just as easily or easier, slow/heavies fall behind.

Basically what I think it boils down to is that I'd much rather be fighting out of the corner vs say, shiek or diddy playing as Fox than if I was playing as Bowser or ganon. Slower=less options to take space quickly=easier to cover all the options and keep them on the back foot. Also generally since the fatties are slower, it means less threatening follow ups if they do manage to fight out. Unless you mess up royalty and get grabbed/side-b'd by the ganon fighting from ledge, you eating what, a fair/Bair and losing stage control (% dependent). Slip up vs a fox or a falcon fighting from the corner and get converted into a shine/grab from the stray convertible hits they throw out to control space.

I don't think slower characters have a place being good in a movement/positional based game, unless they have something ridiculous to cover up weak spots (stuff like 3.02 DK's invincible arms on nair comes to mind.)

 

[Ripple]

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed:

oh hey, look at that. the tier list that nearly everyone agrees with also thinks that the super heavies are bad except yoshi

I don't think slower characters have a place being good in a movement/positional based game, unless they have something ridiculous to cover up weak spots (stuff like 3.02 DK's invincible arms on nair comes to mind.)

saying that fatties don't deserve to be good really pisses me off. people say this game is a movement and position game when thats clearly half of it. look at melee, the PUNISH game on that is absurd. Why can't fatties have that without the excessive movement?

 

[Deleted member]

omg wow that tier list is amazing the guy who made it must get laid 20 times a day weowzers hot damn

 

[941]

The obvious solution is to add Rage Mode as a buff to the fatties who can survive at higher percents and kill at earlier percents. Kappa

 

[Boiko]

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed:

You also have like, six heavies in between high and top.
And we all know D3 isn't lower mid and Bowser isn't low no matter how anyone tries to spin it.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually that list is outdated/isn't my final list.

THIS was my final list, paste the right one you bakas

edit: Strong Bads list is basically my list but goes into further detail, so you could also look at that one

 

[JOE!]

The obvious solution is to add Rage Mode as a buff to the fatties who can survive at higher percents and kill at earlier percents. Kappa

That's... Actually not a bad idea?

 

[CORY]

saying that fatties don't deserve to be good really pisses me off. people say this game is a movement and position game when thats clearly half of it. look at melee, the PUNISH game on that is absurd. Why can't fatties have that without the excessive movement?

I think what he was saying isn't that they don't deserve to be good/better, but that they lack the tools to be good/better within the current meta/engine.

 

[Soft Serve]

oh hey, look at that. the tier list that nearly everyone agrees with also thinks that the super heavies are bad except yoshi



saying that fatties don't deserve to be good really pisses me off. people say this game is a movement and position game when thats clearly half of it. look at melee, the PUNISH game on that is absurd. Why can't fatties have that without the excessive movement?

I didn't say they don't deserve to be good, I don't get where you're reading that into what I wrote, which was about characters just having silly tools that can be used to negate portions positional advantage just straight up. Especially when I just said how bad they are/why you should just play a fast character, because fast characters have better punish games inherently. I'm all for buffing the slower characters, and I think making their conversions and punish games stronger is a much better way than just making them faster.

Spoiler

Or we could all just play fox

 

[Bazkip]

But they dont hurt you.
They tell the move to initiate it's next step if an enemy is in them.

But it being way out there in front of him causes it to active earlier. If you don't have disjoint then you need to be extremely careful to edgeguard against it without dying. Isn't a bad recovery supposed to be one of Falcon's weaknesses?

Grounded Raptor Boost doesn't have them in front like that, aerial Raptor Boost in Melee didn't have them like that, so why is it like this?

Spoiler: Screenshots

I just don't see why it needs to be like that.

 

[Ripple]

You also have like, six heavies in between high and top.
And we all know D3 isn't lower mid and Bowser isn't low no matter how anyone tries to spin it.

I'm complaining about the super heavies.

and D3 is absolutely lower mid and bowser is actually a terrible character that gets away with people not realizing what his mixups are.

D3 loses to everyone in the same tier as him except for snake and zelda. is hard countered by 2 of the characters in the tier above him. and loses to 4 of the characters below him.

the ONLY reason D3 is ever thought to be good is because his MUs with TOP tiers is incredible for some reason

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I thought about this back when people mentioned this change happened in Smash 4 (back near its release). Idealistically, quick characters should struggle to kill and slow ones would have an easier time. Thing like fox up smash would kill much later and something like Ganondorf Fair would kill earlier (by extension of course). Heavies should have good combos into kills so they don't rely on edeguarding so much will quicker characters do. I came to the conclusion that nobody would get on board with this idea (much like grab changes I discussed recently) because it was too foreign and moved on.

 

[Deleted member]

the ONLY reason D3 is ever thought to be good is because his MUs with TOP tiers is incredible for some reason

This is incredibly relevant and definitely a good reason for listing a character high. Characters like Roy have obnoxiously bad matchups such as DDD and Puff, and other 5-5s like Zard, DK, Bowser, and Wario. But these are all completely irrelevant due to Roy having great top tier MUs, so he as a result is S tier.

To place your character on a tier list, you have to consider their involvement in the metagame, not just their MU spreadsheet. Looking at DDDs spreadsheet looks awful, but he wins some very important MUs. If you went only by MU spreadsheets, toon link would probably be the best since he beats or goes even with like 35 characters in the cast, while having massively horrible MUs vs the main characters in the metagame.

 

[Idostuff]

It is a pretty consistent trend across all games that the small fast character with less health but better movement are superior in a competitive setting when compared to their big slow relatives with more heath. It is true in shooters, RPG's not so much, and certainly in smash. I don't know how we could really change it

 

[Frost | Odds]

It is a pretty consistent trend across all games that the small fast character with less health but better movement are superior in a competitive setting when compared to their big slow relatives with more heath. It is true in shooters, RPG's not so much, and certainly in smash. I don't know how we could really change it

A long list of small, methodical, specific changes aimed at addressing those precise issues? Maybe 22 pages or so? *cough*

The boundary conditions of the universe do not prevent fat characters from being balanced and good in a Smash Bros game. It's just a bit tricky.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Weight is just a number assigned to characters, being heavy is a good thing, being large is bad. Being heavy has lots of advantages like slowing down certain throws, improving your CC ability, and making your opponents require more hits to get you to kill percent so you have more chances to escape. Unfortunately it usually also comes with the side-effect of being large which is a world of disadvantages with the only advantage being generally better reach on attacks. If it weren't for them also typically being slow and/or having slow/committed attacks, they could come out even, but there aren't really any where that is the case, except ROB who actually gives us a good heavy fatty for once because he's got quick moves and good quick burst reach, and samus who isn't really a fatty... And also has lots of good pokes and godlike projectiles

 

[trash?]

It is a pretty consistent trend across all games that the small fast character with less health but better movement are superior in a competitive setting when compared to their big slow relatives with more heath.

I'm assuming you haven't played ultra street fighter 4 yet, where everyone agrees that zangeif, the big slow relative with more health, is absolutely top tier in every way possible, and only really has like three matchups that could ever justify him needing to switch (keep in mind, two of the three matchups are from mid-tiers that you see rarely, and a top tier that only has like three players that justify her on a high level)

 

[Boiko]

This is incredibly relevant and definitely a good reason for listing a character high. Characters like Roy have obnoxiously bad matchups such as DDD and Puff, and other 5-5s like Zard, DK, Bowser, and Wario. But these are all completely irrelevant due to Roy having great top tier MUs, so he as a result is S tier.

To place your character on a tier list, you have to consider their involvement in the metagame, not just their MU spreadsheet. Looking at DDDs spreadsheet looks awful, but he wins some very important MUs. If you went only by MU spreadsheets, toon link would probably be the best since he beats or goes even with like 35 characters in the cast, while having massively horrible MUs vs the main characters in the metagame.

THIS SO HARD.
I don't care that D3 sucks again Ivy since there are like 3 Ivy players in the world.

 

[JOE!]

The matchup web is so intense.

Sure, ddd loses to ivy but does well vs fox. Foxes eat ivysaurs to keep their population low and allow the dedede an ecological niche to fill. Etc

 

[Ripple]

D3's believed viability is entirely related to Fox.

who does DDD get bodied by? Ivy, TL, ZSS, Wario.

who does fox body? those characters

 

[steelguttey]

we got some 10th grade biology matchup charts goin on

 

[JOE!]

Pretty much. Fox is like an invasive species taking out all of ddds natural predators.

Probably a few characters in that situation.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Eh, if Fox were an invasive species, we would have tried to nerf kill him awhile ago. Obviously he is at the top of the tier list food chain because melee we can't upset the food chain.

 

[Boiko]

D3's believed viability is entirely related to Fox.

who does DDD get bodied by? Ivy, TL, ZSS, Wario.

who does fox body? those characters

I guess we'll pretend Marth, Roy, Ike, Sheik, and others spacies don't matter?

 

[Deleted member]

I guess we'll pretend Marth, Roy, Ike, Sheik, and others spacies don't matter?

DDD doesn't get bodied by Marth or Roy, what? Ike is probably like -2 or -1 and sheik is oh god please help DDD

 

[Ripple]

are you saying that ike beats DDD? cuz, thats not right. it's a light +1 for DDD

and sheik loses to DDD also.

 

[Boiko]

I'm saying D3 wins against all of them or has a reasonable match up with all of them and they're all top tier characters.

 

[Ripple]

yeah but his viability isn't as related to them as to fox