Tier List Speculation

[Hylian]

You think IC's are better in teams than Link?

>_>

 

[Jolteon]

You think IC's are better in teams than Link?

>_>

Characters are in no specific order in their respective tiers.

To answer your question, no I don't.

 

[Bloodcross]

it's ok @Seagull Joe you don't have to john i think you're a Top 5 Bowser even better than your idol

 

[DMG]

Mid


Low

Absolutely Heresy

 

[Apollo Ali]

but swallowcides tho

 

[Phan7om]

Kappa Kappa

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why the **** would you put Falco in top tier in a teams list
He's not horizontally fast, he can't rescue and can rarely be saved due to fall speed and short recovery, his primary strength in neutral is way less significant in doubles

 

[Frost | Odds]

Literally any approach has vs gets bitten. Anytime recovers can be Dair'd or bitten. Anytime chooses an approach gets bitten. Play Coney. He'll destroy any .

Wario / Bowser is borderline unwinnable, but it's not Bowser's worst matchup.

anyway, since you asked

http://nwm7.challonge.com/PM

I forget who the first two guys played.
QraQ = pretty good ivysaur
Agi = very good Wario, took out SilentWolf
Hungry Headcrab = great Ganon, took out PPU and Aki
Big D = D3 main, pocket ICs. His D3 got 3 stocked, and ICs turns out to be completely unwinnable for Bowser
Chillin = Wolf

basically it was a gauntlet of most of Bowser's worst matchups, barring possibly Wolf, who still seemed pretty rough due to having the touch of death. I was pretty happy to not see a ROB or GnW, but otherwise the bases were pretty much all covered.

 

[Akhenderson]

Yes it is an argument. You're line of thinking is far too linear. It's great if a character has safe shield options and can bait and punish, but how far can they take a read? To what degree can they bait and punish? What kind of conversions can they got off of their safe shield pressure? Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't need to break these things out for NZA, because I know he knows Ness' punish ability, but in case you don't know, Ness has some of the hardest punishes in the game If you make a mistake in your approach toward him you can eat anything from 30% to 80% to death. I played yesterday against GP, who plays Fox and IC's, numerous times I would have >100% strings off of one read.

My point here is don't be so linear in you're thinking. Any character can do anything, really, but there are varying degrees of risk/reward for each individual match up.



If you know Cactuar, you know he's not a rush down Fox player. He's patient, methodical, and intelligent. I do play against a very rush down heavy Fox in Animal though.

I totally forgot to mention something about that. I was even thinking about it in work just tonight. Sorry Boiks.
Yes, Ness exhibits a lot of weaknesses such as bad range, bad recovery, meh shield pressure, and being combo fodder. But making a small mistake against a Ness can easily transition that small mistake into a huge deficit and that alone makes him mid tier.

His combo strings are not only damaging, but he has many tools to reset the combo to extend it. His Jab 1 for example, hits both sides, making it easy to jab reset no matter which side the opponent just so happens to land after a hard knockdown. Magnet is a classic combo extender that allows you to follow up into virtually anything. uair can chain into itself against fast fallers or as a kill move against floaties. dair does dair things. fair can chain back into a grab. bair can combo into itself at low percents, kill at high percents or even reset back into grab.End it off with the fact that PK Fire is a combo starter AND a combo extender.
Have fun DI'ing all that~

 

[Frost | Odds]

New salty singles list. Based on Jolteon's template because I'm lazy. Characters are ordered within tiers. Vertical gaps denote larger gaps within tiers.

I can't tell if I think Ivy is trash now just because I've been playing her and am salty because she feels bad, or if it's actually an accurate assessment. Bleh. Probably gonna switch to Ganon or Mewtwo, barring significant Ivy buffs (and ROB nerfs. Jesus christ) in 3.6 - she just feels pretty undertuned right now, though her design is still lovely.

Ninja changed Ness's location because of Aki's post

Rick and Morty Tier





420 Tier





Middle Tier





Low Riders




Not Very Good

 

[Idostuff]

Your character bias for Ganon really shows. There is literally one MU that Ganon wins decisively, and that is against Bowser. I can't think of a single reason Ganon would be that high in anyone's tier list unless they were a salty Bowser main.

 

[Bazkip]

Your character bias for Ganon really shows. There is literally one MU that Ganon wins decisively, and that is against Bowser. I can't think of a single reason Ganon would be that high in anyone's tier list unless they were a salty Bowser main.

The thing is though is that salt doesn't even explain it because he crushed Hungry Headcrab. I don't really understand it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

New salty singles list. Based on Jolteon's template because I'm lazy. Characters are ordered within tiers. Vertical gaps denote larger gaps within tiers.

I can't tell if I think Ivy is trash now just because I've been playing her and am salty because she feels bad, or if it's actually an accurate assessment. Bleh. Probably gonna switch to Ganon or Mewtwo, barring significant Ivy buffs (and ROB nerfs. Jesus christ) in 3.6 - she just feels pretty undertuned right now, though her design is still lovely.

Ninja changed Ness's location because of Aki's post

Rick and Morty Tier





420 Tier





Middle Tier





Low Riders




Not Very Good

Who is the ROB that's been ****ing you up the ass to put him above fox, I really wanna know now

 

[Hylian]

Your character bias for Ganon really shows. There is literally one MU that Ganon wins decisively, and that is against Bowser. I can't think of a single reason Ganon would be that high in anyone's tier list unless they were a salty Bowser main.

Ganon beats IC's decisively .

 

[Strong Badam]

You can be salty even after winning. Like if you think the set was closer than it should have been given your perception of the skill gap between you and your opponent. Mew2King often said X character was busted even if he didn't lose, but instead barely won. Odds' list placement has often been theory-driven instead of results-driven, so bringing up results to counteract it may not be the best course of action.

But yeah I don't agree with that Ganon placement, I think Ganon is probably somewhere in mid-tier. I think people are still thinking about 3.0 when they put him on tier lists; he's slightly better and the meta is significantly kinder to him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I've talked to Kage about ganon a bit, we both think he's dumb right now. There's just so much potential that's totally untapped.

Ganon is basically Bowser, but with his worst crippling weaknesses surgically removed and replaced with strong, safe neutral options, a godly DACUS, and actual kill threats. He's Adam Jensen, Robo-Bowser.

@ DrinkingFood it's @DumberChild. Just a smart, patient player who doesn't get flustered easily and makes enough good decisions to capitalize on ROB's utter lack of meaningful weaknesses.

 

[Idostuff]

Ganon beats IC's decisively .

Interesting. I have literally never even seen anyone play IC in PM so i would have no idea. What makes it good for Ganon?

 

[Hylian]

Interesting. I have literally never even seen anyone play IC in PM so i would have no idea. What makes it good for Ganon?

It's pretty much the same as melee, except IC's are worse than melee and Ganon is better.

 

[941]

Ganon beats IC's decisively .

Ganon and like 10 other characters. Anyone who places ICs above mid tier hasn't looked at tournament placements or watched many ICs sets.

 

[eideeiit]

>Be me
>See Odds' tier list
>See G&W above Marth
>See DDD low tier
>See Sonic worst tier
>Lose respect
>Nah
>but for reals tho
>What the ****?
>"Salty singles list"
>Indeed.

 

[Idostuff]

It's pretty much the same as melee, except IC's are worse than melee and Ganon is better.

Sorry for being a noob, but i don't play Melee much, and i don't play Ganon when i do. Can you be specific about why Ganon beats IC? are they easy to separate? Easy to edgeguard? Does Ganon win in neutral (like that would ever happen)?

Also lol at Marth being that low. Marth is like Melee Sheik, he is the tier list gatekeeper. He is the one i most hear people complain about how badly their chars lose to.

 

[DrinkingFood]

odd's list seems more tier list speculation thread driven than actually results or theory driven
weird that the character we've been talking about most recently found his way to the very top, and weird how we often talk about olimar's recovery glitch(es), and that he found his way to the bottom...
like olimar is pretty good. The glitch holds him back and it sucks for oli players but it's not like... his pikmin throw or something doesn't work. That would be awful because he'd have no way to play neutral. up-b occasionally falling apart is secondary to avoiding going offstage in the first place. Yet here we have this tiny ass character that hits like a truck with reasonable disjoint and can force you to approach/commit with some very excellent projectiles. I doubt there are very many people that understand how good his punish game actually is. Even if you can't finish a punishment with a stock or even an offstage situation, you can knock them away and pellet them with pikmin to continue the punishment without actually knocking them back, now they are in a situation where they have pikmin on them, dealing damage they don't want against a character that can sneak under badly placed hitboxes and kill early, they have to choose to commit and rid themselves of the pikmin or take more damage that just makes olimar have an easier time chucking them off with throws/getting strong stray hits with various moves that kill or just set up better and better edgeguard opportunities. He's kinda like samus in the regard of how he can play the stagger game by limiting the options of an opponent you just knocked away... except he has a better guaranteed-punishment game in the first place than she does

 

[Hylian]

Sorry for being a noob, but i don't play Melee much, and i don't play Ganon when i do. Can you be specific about why Ganon beats IC? are they easy to separate? Easy to edgeguard? Does Ganon win in neutral (like that would ever happen)?

Also lol at Marth being that low. Marth is like Melee Sheik, he is the tier list gatekeeper. He is the one i most hear people complain about how badly their chars lose to.

Basically Ganon just fair's IC's once and nana dies, and retreating fairs are super hard for them to deal with. He is also super super good at edgeguarding them with reverse uair or just fair in general. Basically one move makes the match-up super hard, similar to how peach's fair is so hard for IC's to deal with.

 

[941]

ICs do have a really good punish game on Ganon though. Ganon has an equally good punish game against them, and an advantage in neutral, but Sopo can D-throw CG Ganon to a decent percent, which is a good way to force him to the edge for handoffs. Ganon is still strong against them, but at least it's not like Peach where they can't even punish well if they somehow win neutral.

 

[PlateProp]

Characters are in no specific order in their respective tiers.

To answer your question, no I don't.

>Not having Sonic or Squirtle, the two most mobile characters IN THE GAME in top tier doubles characters


You do realize that both of these characters can disengage and make any fight a 2 v1 in less than half a second right?

 

[Deleted member]

Doubles list
Low

You actually think toon link isn't godlike in doubles? He is incredible! It'd be pretty hard to argue that he isn't one of the best.

He has incredible mobility, great control over neutral in doubles, has amazing kill power, his punishment and setup is really quick so he can multi task hard core, his recovery is god tier since the opponent can't spend the 20+ seconds to edge guard you with all 4 people on the screen... Whats BAD about him in doubles?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Whats BAD about him in doubles?

Can't heal Ness between enemy stocks. Or charge bukkit.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't heal Ness between enemy stocks. Or charge bukkit.

Is this a joke answer or a serious answer?

Dakpo and I have one of the most successful teams in Project M even though my character can't charge bukkit

 

[PlateProp]

Is this a joke answer or a serious answer?

Dakpo and I have one of the most successful teams in Project M even though my character can't charge bukkit

Just play squirtle, bubble and watergun fill up bukkit in one shot

Edit: He's also a minor

 

[DrinkingFood]

squirtle also happens to be fast, small, and have good killing tools and hard to deal with recovery, particularly in doubles
that sounds like a gawdliek team, GDubs and Squirt

 

[PlateProp]

squirtle also happens to be fast, small, and have good killing tools and hard to deal with recovery, particularly in doubles
that sounds like a gawdliek team, GDubs and Squirt

Ik
I wish all the pm players here in SA weren't complete trash at doubles

If only I could convince espy to come back, best doubles partner ever ;-; RIP the dream

 

[Deleted member]

New salty singles list.

Reading that list from top to bottom was like sipping a fine wine, and then slowly discovering that it was in fact 100% LSD

 

[Frost | Odds]

Reading that list from top to bottom was like sipping a fine wine, and then slowly discovering that it was in fact 100% LSD

I understood that reference.

After some debriefing, pretty sure I overrated a few characters - notably DK and GnW, probably others too. Y'all are still dead wrong about Ganon, though. My Ivy experiment crashed and burned hard enough that I'm probably gonna try him next. We shall seeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Psyant]

Pikachu is super fun in doubles. None of the usual woes of playing the neutral game but all the pleasure of running around making people hate my up smash. He's fantastic at saving his teammate offstage too, the upwards hit of his Uair is especially godlike for that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah, I just picked up an olimar, on top of being surprisingly fun, I didn't even feel like there were times where the character was restricted or holding me back, he plays well and naturally feels like a good character... I'm not convinced this character is bad.
In over an hour of playing I did not once have his tether break apart on me. There's no way this glitch can be very common at all.
I think it's stupid that he's reliant on RNG, some characters you can just get boned by if you can't stop their approaches because you have no purple, but it seems most of the time he has a purple which is really all he needs

 

[mimgrim]

New salty singles list.

I see you salty singles list and raise you one super scrubby singles list (purely made out of the depths of my boredom).

Lines are not ordered (which is the biggest reason why Fox will be where he is so as to exemplify his position) and the bigger gap between lines mean the difference in potential/viability/whatever you want to call it between those characters. Yadda yadda yadda.

 

[steelguttey]

Yeah, I just picked up an olimar, on top of being surprisingly fun, I didn't even feel like there were times where the character was restricted or holding me back, he plays well and naturally feels like a good character... I'm not convinced this character is bad.
In over an hour of playing I did not once have his tether break apart on me. There's no way this glitch can be very common at all.
I think it's stupid that he's reliant on RNG, some characters you can just get boned by if you can't stop their approaches because you have no purple, but it seems most of the time he as a purple which is really all he needs

oh hey someone thats good at the game is playing olimar thats new

anyway the thing with the tether glitch is that its pretty common with characters with huge hitboxes like d3 and rob(nair basically) because they knock the pikmin away and whistle just doesnt work. im convinced that he isnt bad too, its just some matchups get really hard when you dont have a purple

 

[The_NZA]

Yes it is an argument. You're line of thinking is far too linear. It's great if a character has safe shield options and can bait and punish, but how far can they take a read? To what degree can they bait and punish? What kind of conversions can they got off of their safe shield pressure? Do you see where I'm going with this? I don't need to break these things out for NZA, because I know he knows Ness' punish ability, but in case you don't know, Ness has some of the hardest punishes in the game If you make a mistake in your approach toward him you can eat anything from 30% to 80% to death. I played yesterday against GP, who plays Fox and IC's, numerous times I would have >100% strings off of one read.

My point here is don't be so linear in you're thinking. Any character can do anything, really, but there are varying degrees of risk/reward for each individual match up.



If you know Cactuar, you know he's not a rush down Fox player. He's patient, methodical, and intelligent. I do play against a very rush down heavy Fox in Animal though.

Ness does have a fearsome punish game. But like I've mentioned before, it gets most of its mileage off of small errors from opponents. I'm going to lay out a bunch of scenario's with approximate percents because I don't want to look up every individual percent in the frame data thread. Please presume the % calculations that follow are +/- 3%.

Situation 1: If Ness dairs an opponent in the air, for 14%, and they do not tech/techroll at all, they easily get hit by a second falling dair for another 14% into an easy backair (15%) OR another dair to repeat the circumstance (14%). That's 43% off of a tiny mistake. If the opponent does tech roll and Ness doesn't get there in time to punish, its just 14%.

Situation 2: Ness's dtilt (2%) > DJC dair (14%) > jab reset (2%) > djc dair (14%) > bair (15%) comes out to 47%.

But if they tech roll that initial DJC dair, its a 16% string. If they hold the a button or buffer roll the jab reset, its a 18% string. If they SDI the 2nd djc dair up or do that weird thing where they get meteored again instead of getting popped up (someone please explain that to me), the combo ends again. Suddenly ,that punish you needed for 47% is doing less than half of that if the opponent does anything to stop the combo string in the process.

Now, the natural answer to this argument is "what you are stating is virtually true for every character, and counterplay exists for a reason and opens new paths for a punish". That may be true, but I have two responses.

A. Ness isn't fast enough to cover too many options at a time. This makes it so reactively responding to the opponents DI/techrolls becomes a guessing game. Examine Situation 2: If after that knockdown, Ness jabs for the jab reset, and the opponent techrolled, Ness can't get a dash attack before the shield is up, so that situation becomes a guessing game of Dash Attack v. dash grab. So much of Ness's combos rely on knockdowns, and because he has nothing to cover large distances quickly, it means his opponents have a LOT of counterplay they can introduce and force him into guessing games that really kills the potency of his combo game. Consider the following clip in my MM v. Ripple:

https://youtu.be/fxNKxFJSlpo?t=35

that 30% punish may seem ferocious, but it was so ridiculously close to being a 45%/60% punish. With good counterplay, Ripple was able to cut a BnB Ness combo into something "okay". When everyone starts optimizing counterplay against Ness (tech rolling dtilt djc dair which NO ONE techrolls, SDIing dair setups so they meteor when Ness is expecting them to pop up, get up attacking on platforms when Ness's try to chase them with his slow ass double jump, buffering getup attacks/rolls on Ness's jab resets), his combos are going to be cut in half MUCH more often.

But Uncle NZA, that's the game working as intended. That's true except for the next point.

B. Ness only wins neutral a few times per stock. Ness's combos seem impressive, but that's largely because people say things like "woah, i can't believe this character can get 50% off of winning neutral once". That may be true, but what they fail to realize about Ness's archetype is that HE SHOULD ONLY WIN NEUTRAL A FEW TIMES A STOCK AGAINST A GOOD PLAYER. When I play Ness, I tell myself "Nyle, you've got to get 50% with this combo or you will be behind" because that's largely the truth. Ness is a lot more like Ganon than people realize. Ness losing the chance at a 54% damaging combo is a lot like Marth failing to kill a character at 100%--if you make that mistake too many times, you are going to be insanely behind.

Given that Ness's combo game has counterplay people are rarely exploiting, Ness has to guess pretty hard in order to continue combos in face of this counterplay, and his neutral game is so abysmal that he has to have the sickest punishes to stay even, I conclude that he's actually a bad character that looks like an alright character when beating people who haven't optimized their strategies against him (EVEN if those opponents are good players).

Think about other characters that combo as well or better than Ness, and ask yourself in what ways are they really worse than him? Roy, Falcon, Lucario, Falco, Lucas, Diddy, Wolf. The difference between the aforementioned characters and Ness? Most of these guys' combos rely on juggles, and non SDIable hits/jab resets, and therefore have less counterplay once they win neutral.

I want to end my point by noting that Ness's DJC uair combos are actually amazingly designed and the people they work against reflect the situations where Ness's design is a success. AKA semi fast fallers/fast fallers. Ness actually combos those guys just fine with far less sporadic guessing games.

People may have noticed, I neglected to talk about nair/fair. Sourspot nair has its place and is nice for tacking an extra 7%. Sweetspot nair only combos at low percents, and is a DI dependent mixup. Fair as a combo tool is kind of weird and I haven't fully formed an opinion on it. DJC fair regrabs are very powerful combo extenders, but in general at higher levels of play, using fair as a combo tool is REALLY spotty. Your opponent can SDI in so many directions since it doesn't have aggressive SDI multipliers on it like Zelda's multihits, and it can be difficult to guarantee followups out of it if your opponent tries to SDI in/SDI out and play that mixup. I probably have to spend more time on it, but if I need to get 40%-50% out of every time I win neutral, I'm not going to rely on something that shoddy.

 

[The_NZA]

I totally forgot to mention something about that. I was even thinking about it in work just tonight. Sorry Boiks.
Yes, Ness exhibits a lot of weaknesses such as bad range, bad recovery, meh shield pressure, and being combo fodder. But making a small mistake against a Ness can easily transition that small mistake into a huge deficit and that alone makes him mid tier.

That was true about 3.02 ganon as well, with the exception that ganon just got guaranteed massive damage off of winning nuetral while Ness combos and gives your opponents to exhibit counterplay. If they make a small mistake, sure its a big punish. But A LOT of the counterplay people can do v. Ness are option selects--they are just options most people aren't doing, period.

You can input a tech roll v. a possible dair at ANY point where a dair situation may come up, and it costs you nothing if he uairs you/nairs/fairs/magnets/bairs you instead. You can buffer a getup attack when you are knocked down and he jab resets at ANY time and it costs you nothing. It simply protects you in case you miss the tech timing or were diing instead.

If Ness jab resets you, you can SDI the DJC dair followup so that it will meteor again instead of popping you up WHILE DIing away in case he DJC uairs instead of DJC dairing, and you will cover both options and make it hard for the Ness to get followups.

Versus smart players who have Ness experience and have thought it out, it is going to be ridiculously hard to keep getting these 50-70% combos Ness players are getting and its going to require more guess work month by month. And don't get me started on Magnet--in your sets, Aki, at NWM, your mag uses introduced so many DI opportunities for your opponents that led to you dropping some crucial combos. All for a tacked on 4%? As a combo extender, I will continue to make the argument that its just not worth it. It's mostly just there for flashiness.

All of this doesn't even get into how polarizing Ness's matchup spreads can be v. floaties, which is unbearable.

 

[Boiko]

stuff

I get what you're saying, I really do, but not everything is going to be as simple as situation a vs. situation b. Something you've neglected to mention is that dair string could result in the opponent being off stage and getting edge guarded at 50 percent. As Ness, I generally combo for stage positioning and then attempt an edge guard. At above the 60 percent range I'll combo for a kill. It's so circumstantial that trying to break it down into this or that will never work.

There are other tools I use, such a dairing right below my opponent while they're still in hitstun so they tech too early and it results in a missed tech. If I hit a Fox with a dash attack, I almost always up tilt immediately after because it results in a missed tech.

First four combos of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UGy2XMBIs8

Note the percentages. In three of them, I combo into a straight KO, in one, an edge guard. It's just all situational.