Tier List Speculation

[Seagull Joe]

@Strong Bad I think just has 0 rep. She belongs higher.

 

[Rizner]

ROB's projectile options are overrated (good but generally can be handled in neutral), what makes him good is ability to force his way into most characters' zones from an odd angle and safely whittling their shield down over time if they try to respond defensively or forcing them to deal with his CC options while taking space from them if they try to respond passively

Sounds like Zelda in 3.02, but with better air mobility. I could see higher up than half and stuff, but what is it that gets him 6th/above characters like tink or falcon?

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon is that low? Lol alright.. whatever. He has barely any bad matchups in PM, they're all easy.

 

[Juushichi]

Sounds like Zelda in 3.02, but with better air mobility. I could see higher up than half and stuff, but what is it that gets him 6th/above characters like tink or falcon?

ROB also poops on some good characters (TL, Roy), has strong MUs vs basically all spacies. He loses badly to Falcon and loses to Sheik, but otherwise handles good characters well enough I think.

Unlike Zelda his edgeguards are good, he can land, has good CC, better anti-projectile game, one of the best throws in the game, still can force some characters to approach, good platform harrassement.

I mean basically there's like no comparison to Zelda.

 

[Deleted member]

**** wrong thread

 

[Deleted member]

ROB also poops on some good characters (TL, Roy), has strong MUs vs basically all spacies. He loses badly to Falcon and loses to Sheik, but otherwise handles good characters well enough I think.

Unlike Zelda his edgeguards are good, he can land, has good CC, better anti-projectile game, one of the best throws in the game, still can force some characters to approach, good platform harrassement.

I mean basically there's like no comparison to Zelda.

Oracle actually thinks falcon vs rob is 5-5

btw why I think rob is kind of stupid is because hes a heavy floaty with... none of the weaknesses of a heavy floaty.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I mean what would you even define as the weakness of a heavy floaty besides being combo'd particularly well by falcon-esque characters (something ROB is far from immune to)?

 

[Ripple]

Oracle actually thinks falcon vs rob is 5-5

btw why I think rob is kind of stupid is because hes a heavy floaty with... none of the weaknesses of a heavy floaty.

which are what? not being able to land I assume. but then DDD has no problem landing either

 

[Deleted member]

getting juggled, getting projectile spammed, losing to dashdance...basically anything that should beat peach doesnt work on rob. rob has his own fantastic dashdance, a reflector that punishes the projectile animation, and a boost to escape juggles on the fly

 

[trash?]

Ganon is that low? Lol alright.. whatever. He has barely any bad matchups in PM, they're all easy.

granted, most people don't know how good a character is potentially for a while in this thread. in fact, I think I just described most of the top 10 currently (see also: the current conversation about ROB who, past 2.1-2.5, has barely been changed at all, but is now suddenly 2broken pls fix)

there's so many shenanigans that ganon's new neutralb has, and honestly even when you got 3rd place with him at mcsmashter, you weren't using some of his best stuff like jab canceling with a standing neutralb after getting choke grabs

 

[Divinokage]

getting juggled, getting projectile spammed, losing to dashdance...basically anything that should beat peach doesnt work on rob. rob has his own fantastic dashdance, a reflector that punishes the projectile animation, and a boost to escape juggles on the fly

You have to dash in and shield DI in to make Rob's approaches unsafe, you can shield grab him fairly easily because his boost has a set trajectory.

Ya Trash, I barely played PM and Im able to contend with the best in the world. If I practiced the newer options I dont know about Id probably win more often big PM tournaments at this point. Ganon has crazy potential.

Link is also sick I find, Vwins showed me last weekend. Lots of potential as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Being heavy and floaty usually means poor mobility, incredible ability to combo, easy to projectile camp

Robs Boosts more than make up for his not fox speed, and his DD is better than most fatties. You cannot combo rob, because he floats away and instead of falling back down like most fatties, rob can jump and boost the **** away. And if you're trying to projectile camp rob, you actually CANNOT win due to his own projectiles/side b being hard core anti projectile.

Other things rob has over other fat/floaty characters is one of the best throw games ever. Although DDD has great throws, they're very position based as to where Rob just KILLS YOU and basically everything is guaranteed. Bowser is also very sad, his positional throws aren't even as good as DDDs

edit: I also don't like boost fair because even though you can shield grab it, almost no characters get anything vs rob off of a grab outside of like... falcon. Robs heavy weight makes weight dependent throws cry, and then it also brings up the topic of rob just floating away and boosting out of your combo/throw.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What are you smoking ROBs DD is average at best
Unless you mean airdashdancing which isn't comparable due to lack of grab/shield option, and heavy commitment before frame 20

 

[trash?]

You cannot combo rob

literally half of this conversation was pointing out how hard ROB gets bopped by combo-heavy characters

 

[Deleted member]

literally half of this conversation was pointing out how hard ROB gets bopped by combo-heavy characters

Then literally half of this conversation wasn't correct. Very few characters can reliably combo rob, and probably the only one who can confirm into kills is falcon. Characters that are combo heavy like roy can only combo until like 80%, and then rob just floats away, leaving said character with 0 actual ways to kill rob outside of throwing out random kill moves. Basically everyone has marth syndrome.

 

[Sneez]

rob's defense is pretty bad without the top in hand, his shield is bad, his roll is garbage, and he's tall. seems like lunchables has a bias against rob since he can't seem to beat oracle with roy, even though sethlon is able to go like 50-50 with him.

 

[Divinokage]

Then literally half of this conversation wasn't correct. Very few characters can reliably combo rob, and probably the only one who can confirm into kills is falcon. Characters that are combo heavy like roy can only combo until like 80%, and then rob just floats away, leaving said character with 0 actual ways to kill rob outside of throwing out random kill moves. Basically everyone has marth syndrome.

Or you can just throw him into a kill move, easy.

 

[Deleted member]

Robs Defensive being poor are more than made up by his punish game and ability to live to 200% multiple times per game. His shield was even buffed in 3.5, and robs gyro can make some characters crumble in neutral

I've also beaten oracle before, and I complained about rob before I ever started losing to him (or before I lost to DF)

Or you can just throw him into a kill move, easy.

The whole point is that you can't use a throw into a kill move vs rob. Outside of blatantly busted throws like falcons u throw, throws into kill moves don't really work vs rob

 

[Deleted member]

What are you smoking ROBs DD is average at best
Unless you mean airdashdancing which isn't comparable due to lack of grab/shield option, and heavy commitment before frame 20

with that grab and CC grab? are you nuts?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also ROB has pretty garbage tech rolls so that's another way to set-up for kills on him.
Anyway wanna know what ROB lacks that other heavy floaties dont? full body quick high priority gtfo me moves. Closest thing ROB has is fair which covers... only directly in front of him

@Umbreon his grab reach in particular? Average disjoint, if you've seen numbers for it they don't take into account the width of his body so his overall reach from his center is pretty high... like bowser's standing grab. Tho if you mean his throw options are good then I'm inclined to agree

 

[Deleted member]

Is robs Dsmash not a quick and great GTFO option paired with his CC?

edit: A **** ton of characters have awful tech rolls, and I think that tech rolls should be normalized. Why the **** do characters like metaknight and squirtle get to cry everynight before they go to bed and falcos is incredible

double edit: What floaty characters also have amazing GTFO options? Bowsers up b is honestly pretty poor due to losing vs disjoints on shield and being simple to bait out. DDD also doesn't have an insanely quick GTFO option afaik

 

[Divinokage]

Robs Defensive being poor are more than made up by his punish game and ability to live to 200% multiple times per game. His shield was even buffed in 3.5, and robs gyro can make some characters crumble in neutral

I've also beaten oracle before, and I complained about rob before I ever started losing to him (or before I lost to DF)


The whole point is that you can't use a throw into a kill move vs rob. Outside of blatantly busted throws like falcons u throw, throws into kill moves don't really work vs rob

Downthrow into Fair with Ganon works all the time or Bair. =)

 

[Deleted member]

Also ROB has pretty garbage tech rolls so that's another way to set-up for kills on him.
Anyway wanna know what ROB lacks that other heavy floaties dont? full body quick high priority gtfo me moves. Closest thing ROB has is fair which covers... only in front of him

not that you really need one when you can boost away

 

[trash?]

I've noticed a pattern that all assumptions of a top tier end up being based on a single player being really good with that character

a single ike won a tournament so ike's good, one of the best PM players of all time uses roy so I guess he's too good now, etc

these characters were always on the lower end of tier lists, with little changes over the versions, but now because players that put in the time and effort have been rewarded, it's suddenly that they're all too toxic and broken?

I'd make the obvious acknowledgement of who's still better than all of them, but this conversation holds far more interest than another argument about that damn guy again

 

[Deleted member]

Downthrow into Fair with Ganon works all the time or Bair. =)

This is incredibly character specific, along with the fact that ganons d throw is also pretty much busted.

Why is ganons d throw still in anyways? The rest of the character was normalized to not be horrible, theres no reason for him to still have an insane CG and confirm into fair lol

 

[trash?]

oh no, that's not everything

it's a chaingrab, that can be linked from a grounded sideb into a jab reset



ganon's pretty good, y'all

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also just tested ROB's DD vs peach's, using debug mode frame advance with ECB's turned on to center the characters:
ROB's: Dash animation lasts 12 frames. Travels less then 2 training room units over this time (approx 1.8)
Peach's: Dash animation lasts 15 frames. Travels slightly farther than ROB's in this time (approx 1.9 units)
ROB travels in 12 frames the same distance as peach does in 14 frames. So his acceleration is slightly higher. Peach's however is about as flexible due to ability to retain speed for longer. Overall difference is somewhat negligible.
However ROB is also a much wider character, meaning the distance he evacuates completely in the wake of his DD is slightly less than peach over the same distance traveled as measured by their center bone (or whatever that white dot is).

 

[Akhenderson]

This is incredibly character specific, along with the fact that ganons d throw is also pretty much busted.

Why is ganons d throw still in anyways? The rest of the character was normalized to not be horrible, theres no reason for him to still have an insane CG and confirm into fair lol

Dthrow -> upsmash kills ness at 70% and is (i think) a true combo. I tried DI-ing both away and towards Ganon, and my DI just gets read and I get upsmashed to death. VIDEO GAMES.

 

[Deleted member]

I've noticed a pattern that all assumptions of a top tier end up being based on a single player being really good with that character

a single ike won a tournament so ike's good, one of the best PM players of all time uses roy so I guess he's too good now, etc

these characters were always on the lower end of tier lists, with little changes over the versions, but now because players that put in the time and effort have been rewarded, it's suddenly that they're all too toxic and broken?

I'd make the obvious acknowledgement of who's still better than all of them, but this conversation holds far more interest than another argument about that damn guy again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

[Divinokage]

I've noticed a pattern that all assumptions of a top tier end up being based on a single player being really good with that character

a single ike won a tournament so ike's good, one of the best PM players of all time uses roy so I guess he's too good now, etc

these characters were always on the lower end of tier lists, with little changes over the versions, but now because players that put in the time and effort have been rewarded, it's suddenly that they're all too toxic and broken?

I'd make the obvious acknowledgement of who's still better than all of them, but this conversation holds far more interest than another argument about that damn guy again

Well it's pretty damn obvious from most of the community that they do not know how to play Smash. And when you don't know how to play you make assumptions on what you think is broken when in reality, I don't think anything is busted in the game at the moment. All a tier list does at the moment is people will throw out strawman arguments non-stop until they get satisfied. lol

Downthrow into usmash is not a true combo on floaties, you can DI with any character.

 

[NTG]

There's a clear imbalance in Strong Bad's tier list favoring Fire Emblem characters. I think I speak for everyone when I say the best way to rectify this is by removing swords entirely from the game.

And giving Squirtle Peach's down smash

 

[trash?]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

in order for it to be illegitimate, assumes that who you are is fully unrelated to what you are saying

when M2K cries nerf every time he loses to something new, that is a very direct connection

 

[Deleted member]

in order for it to be illegitimate, assumes that who you are is fully unrelated to what you are saying

when M2K cries nerf every time he loses to something new, that is a very direct connection

m2k is totally valid to make observations based on his own experiences, as are we. for what its worth, i have absolutely no issue with tink despite playing a ridiculous tink player all the time. personally, i don't even have an issue with rob, but to understate his long list of great attributes is silly.

 

[trash?]

M2K, on the same night, also said lucas was overnerfed, because he beat pink fresh, a man that doesn't even play PM that much in favor of SSB4.

this is a constant. he does this on a regular basis, from brawl to here to ssb4, because it's a way to soften the blow.

his opinions are as invalid as they get, when they're made by the world's worst scientist

 

[Foo]

I've noticed a pattern that all assumptions of a top tier end up being based on a single player being really good with that character

a single ike won a tournament so ike's good, one of the best PM players of all time uses roy so I guess he's too good now, etc

these characters were always on the lower end of tier lists, with little changes over the versions, but now because players that put in the time and effort have been rewarded, it's suddenly that they're all too toxic and broken?

I'd make the obvious acknowledgement of who's still better than all of them, but this conversation holds far more interest than another argument about that damn guy again

Well, considering how hard characters got nerfed in 3.5, the relatively unchanged characters happen to be really good this patch. Also, ike was being put around where he was long before ally won shots fired, that's just m2k. People's opinion of ike hasn't been formed by ally winning, it was strengthened by ally winning.

Well it's pretty damn obvious from most of the community that they do not know how to play Smash. And when you don't know how to play you make assumptions on what you think is broken when in reality, I don't think anything is busted in the game at the moment. All a tier list does at the moment is people will throw out strawman arguments non-stop until they get satisfied. lol

Downthrow into usmash is not a true combo on floaties, you can DI with any character.

Really just depends on how you define busted. I mean, there's nothing close to game breaking, but there's some pretty silly stuff. Non of it makes games un-winnable of course, but it does put players at significant advantage over others frequent simply for having chosen a certain main.


EDIT: Why the **** are we talking about m2k? Just because he's a good player doesn't mean you have to endlessly overanalyze his opinoin of something. Unless I missed something, m2k hasn't posted in here recently, so what gives? Nobody is using m2k's opinion as a source, so drop it before you derail a rare not-fox discussion.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is robs Dsmash not a quick and great GTFO option paired with his CC?

edit: A **** ton of characters have awful tech rolls, and I think that tech rolls should be normalized. Why the **** do characters like metaknight and squirtle get to cry everynight before they go to bed and falcos is incredible

double edit: What floaty characters also have amazing GTFO options? Bowsers up b is honestly pretty poor due to losing vs disjoints on shield and being simple to bait out. DDD also doesn't have an insanely quick GTFO option afaik

I mean while airborne. DDD, samus, peach, yoshi have nair, M2 has fair/nair kinda. 3/5 of those character can also shift their momentum quickly while airborne similar to less extreme airdashes. ROB has no quick good coverage aerials, he'd be worse off without boosts (in terms of jugglability) than any other floaty or character. If you wanna talk about grounded gtfo, peach and samus are two floaties that want a word with you.
Does Yoshi count as a floaty? W/e you counted bowser despite him being above average fall speed lol

 

[Deleted member]

M2K, on the same night, also said lucas was overnerfed, because he beat pink fresh, a man that doesn't even play PM that much in favor of SSB4.

this is a constant. he does this on a regular basis, from brawl to here to ssb4, because it's a way to soften the blow.

his opinions are as invalid as they get, when they're made by the world's worst scientist

oh THATS why rob and roy are perfectly fine as is

youre right

 

[steelguttey]

the more i play olimar the more i realize how much i hate playing this character

like he shouldnt be bottom tier, but he is simply because of his recovery.

his fsmash is a move that shouldnt be in a smash game. its easily one of the best ways in the game to edgeguard people recovering low

his side b is in a sense fox laser if you hit it because it means "i can do this all day dude you gotta approach me"

he would probably be mid tier if his recovery gets fixed

 

[trash?]

to make a different personal connection: you angrily begged for a money match when someone said roy's dtilt isn't as broken as you think it was

so yes, you hold a bias

 

[Foo]

to make a different personal connection: you angrily begged for a money match when someone said roy's dtilt isn't as broken as you think it was

so yes, you hold a bias

ANYWAY, BACK TO ROB. (like, seriously, pls stop)

I think he's a character that could go either way. I think he's fairly figured out as a character, but people in general have never really played against a character like rob, so he may fall in viability once people figure stuff out. However, it's hard to say if that will ever happen because he has some serious pros and some limited weaknesses. Worst I could see him is probably the bottom of high tier.

the more i play olimar the more i realize how much i hate playing this character

like he shouldnt be bottom tier, but he is simply because of his recovery.

his fsmash is a move that shouldnt be in a smash game. its easily one of the best ways in the game to edgeguard people recovering low

his side b is in a sense fox laser if you hit it because it means "i can do this all day dude you gotta approach me"

he would probably be mid tier if his recovery gets fixed

Honestly, olimar doesn't fit in a smash game. I dread the day olimar gets buffed and I have to play against him T-T