Tier List Speculation

[AntiPrompt]

ROB under pressure=****ed.

Side note, why is Pit so high? I play both Charizard and Pit, and there's no way Pit is higher tier than Zard.

 

[Strong Badam]

Less irrelevant ad hominem more Tier List Speculation, please, folks.

 

[mimgrim]

so yes, you hold a bias

Everyone holds bias.

It's human nature.

To think otherwise is... ignorant.

EDIT - Posted this before I saw Strong Bad's post. Sowwy. :<

 

[Deleted member]

I mean while airborne. DDD, samus, peach, yoshi have nair, M2 has fair/nair kinda. 3/5 of those character can also shift their momentum quickly while airborne similar to less extreme airdashes. ROB has no quick good coverage aerials, he'd be worse off without boosts (in terms of jugglability) than any other floaty or character. If you wanna talk about grounded gtfo, peach and samus are two floaties that want a word with you. Does Yoshi count as a floaty? W/e you counted bowser despite him being above average fall speed lol

The whole point of robs boosts is they act as his fast airborne options. He can't just throw out some frame 3 or 4 nair, but unlike the other characters you mentioned, they can't choose at any point to just go in a different direction with 3 uses. The other characters' "burst movement" aerial options aren't really a comparative thing to robs, I don't even know what some of those characters have.

DDD can't boost or anything (without already having a side b out), neither can samus or peach, yoshi can't either, and if mewtwo does anything he'll very likely be in special fall already, something rob never has to be in.

 

[steelguttey]

what happened to this thread its 1 am why is there 41 people here

 

[NTG]

I do think it's funny that people say "confirmation bias" as if it's a necessarily bad thing in this case. Are people who haven't played against really good players of certain characters more qualified to give an opinion? How does that work?

 

[Cpt.]

@ Strong Badam

Seeing that most melee characters got nerfs and Samus got buffs......mad buffs...I'd say she could easily be a spot higher. On the same level as Cpt. Falcon, Wolf, but in order to prove that I think we need some more ESAM

 

[Blitzus]

I could maybe believe that Samus does well against some of the higher-ups, but I gotta be honest... I don't know a single Samus player. *shrug*

 

[DrinkingFood]

The whole point of robs boosts is they act as his fast airborne options. He can't just throw out some frame 3 or 4 nair, but unlike the other characters you mentioned, they can't choose at any point to just go in a different direction with 3 uses. The other characters' "burst movement" aerial options aren't really a comparative thing to robs, I don't even know what some of those characters have.

DDD can't boost or anything (without already having a side b out), neither can samus or peach, yoshi can't either, and if mewtwo does anything he'll very likely be in special fall already, something rob never has to be in.

Do you not know what DJC is or... sudden shifts in movement ATTACHED to a high priority aerial? Yoshi's can even have armor briefly. In fact DJC shift momentum faster initially then ROB's boost since DJC only takes one frame to happen, ROB's boosts take 5.

 

[Lizalfos]

What is the consensus on Fox vs ROB?

I'm guess Fox and Falco can still combo ROB, and therefore ROB is low on the list.

Fox probably doesn't deserve his own tier. This isn't Melee where he wins every matchup, he probably even loses some.

 

[Frosti]

@ Strong Badam I think G&W should be a bit higher. His MU against Fox, shiek, Falco, Falcon, and a lot of other notably high tier characters are not bad/good. He has good combos and solid edgeguard options. He just gets rekt by Marth and Roy. But other than those two MU's he's solid.

 

[Foo]

Do you not know what DJC is or... sudden shifts in movement ATTACHED to a high priority aerial? Yoshi's can even have armor briefly.

Burst movement doesn't equal a shift in movement, otherwise EVERY character would have one via wavebouncing and b-reversing. DJC is super duper good for peach and yoshi, for sure, but they aren't really comparable to rob's boosts. If you bait it out from yoshi or peach, they are in some trouble because they are still above you with no option. Rob can just kinda fly away.

EDIT: Accidentally said rob and peach when I meant yoshi and peach

 

[trash?]

alright, let's word this in such a way that's more generalized, maybe hopefully.

a point of good-ness is not based on a single tournament, or a single player. when people say fox is the best in melee, there's hard facts to back such a statement up, showing multiple top-level players winning many tournaments.

in PM, I've noticed a pattern of:

• a character wins a tournament a single time, by a single player
• this character, often heavily underrated beforehand, is now suddenly at the top of people's personal tier lists
• points of this character that were talked of before and considered alright are now broken traits that need to be fixed immediately, lest they become as good as he-who-shall-not-be-named. these traits are never stated under objective stats, because oftentimes the actual frame data disproves most of the arguments that happen
  
• the success of this player is immediately softened as a result, under the assumption that they won with a "cheap/easy" character and thus didn't deserve the win
  
• someone (either bleck or, on his sick days, me, let's be honest) mentions he-who-shall-not-be-named, conversation goes nowhere

and then you rinse and repeat until the next major a new character wins. this is a constant on these forums, and nearly everyone can see it coming from a mile away, yet it always happens

I don't considering acknowledging the people that partake in this often to be a bad thing, but then I'm not the moderator here so that's not my say

 

[Deleted member]

Burst movement doesn't equal a shift in movement, otherwise EVERY character would have one via wavebouncing and b-reversing. DJC is super duper good for peach and yoshi, for sure, but they aren't really comparable to rob's boosts. If you bait it out from rob or peach, they are in some trouble because they are still above you with no option. Rob can just kinda fly away.

^^

I was writing a post and then this popped up and it was basically the same thing

 

[Foo]

alright, let's word this in such a way that's more generalized, maybe hopefully.

a point of good-ness is not based on a single tournament, or a single player. when people say fox is the best in melee, there's hard facts to back such a statement up, showing multiple top-level players winning many tournaments.

in PM, I've noticed a pattern of:

• a character wins a tournament a single time, by a single player
• this character, often heavily underrated beforehand, is now suddenly at the top of people's personal tier lists
• points of this character that were talked of before and considered alright are now broken traits that need to be fixed immediately, lest they become as good as he-who-shall-not-be-named. these traits are never stated under objective stats, because oftentimes the actual frame data disproves most of the arguments that happen
  
• the success of this player is immediately softened as a result, under the assumption that they won with a "cheap/easy" character and thus didn't deserve the win
  
• someone (either bleck or, on his sick days, me, let's be honest) mentions he-who-shall-not-be-named, conversation goes nowhere

and then you rinse and repeat until the next major a new character wins in a major. this is a constant on these forums, and nearly everyone can see it coming from a mile away, yet it always happens

I don't considering acknowledging the people that partake in this often to be a bad thing, but then I'm not the moderator here so that's not my say

Then instead of ad homineming literally the entirety of smashboards, how about you tell us WHY we are wrong? I mean, of course tournament results are going to influence tier lists. If it didn't, they'd be TERRIBLE tier lists. We aren't using players winning as examples, we are using facts. If someone was saying "Ike is OP, he won shots fired" then you could absolutely make this point, but no one is.

Like, we are having a real discussion about rob, discussing his actual pros and cons without mentioning any rob players, and you are just hell bent on ruining it lol.

ANY****INGWAY

About samus, @ Cpt. she isn't strictly buffed from melee, though she may be. Her recovery is considerably worse in pm, and imo, there's a lot more character's that give her trouble. However, I could certainly see her being bumped up, but I could see her at where she is on strong bad's list. I haven't really played against good samus players, but I never really struggled against her once I figured out how to beat CC spam.

 

[trash?]

We aren't using players winning as examples, we are using facts.

the entire post was pointing out the opposite--you know what no, sure, yeah, I don't feel like stinking up the thread by having to apparently reclarify myself a thousand times

 

[Strong Badam]

in PM, I've noticed a pattern of:

• a character wins a tournament a single time, by a single player
• this character, often heavily underrated beforehand, is now suddenly at the top of people's personal tier lists
• points of this character that were talked of before and considered alright are now broken traits that need to be fixed immediately, lest they become as good as he-who-shall-not-be-named. these traits are never stated under objective stats, because oftentimes the actual frame data disproves most of the arguments that happen
  
• the success of this player is immediately softened as a result, under the assumption that they won with a "cheap/easy" character and thus didn't deserve the win
  
• someone (either bleck or, on his sick days, me, let's be honest) mentions he-who-shall-not-be-named, conversation goes nowhere

and then you rinse and repeat until the next major a new character wins. this is a constant on these forums, and nearly everyone can see it coming from a mile away, yet it always happens

I'm just curious where you're even getting that sentiment from in the context of this thread. The recent national on everyone's mind is Shots Fired, yet I have Ike tied for 9th on my tier list and only one person (Boiko) raised a defiant voice to disagree. I've had both Ike and Roy quite high on my lists since release, not in reaction to any single player's performance.

You seem to be addressing points that aren't even being made:

I've noticed a pattern that all assumptions of a top tier end up being based on a single player being really good with that character

a single ike won a tournament so ike's good, one of the best PM players of all time uses roy so I guess he's too good now, etc

these characters were always on the lower end of tier lists, with little changes over the versions, but now because players that put in the time and effort have been rewarded, it's suddenly that they're all too toxic and broken?

Who said these things in this thread? Are you addressing Reddit, or Twitch Chat? No one would have much of an issue with you if you would go "Hey dudes, I disagree that ROB is that good because of X Y and Z weaknesses, easily exploitable by characters 1 2 and 3 with methods A B and C" like how DrinkingFood is. AKA discussing character potency/viability. Instead you seem to be expressing frustration at how a non-participating hivemind comes to their conclusions, which may have merit but doesn't pertain to tier lists nor belong here as a result. Small off-topic tangents aren't a huge deal but this one was going on for nearly a full page. That's why I politely asked y'all to return to the topic at hand.

 

[Ivko]

About samus, @ Cpt. she isn't strictly buffed from melee, though she may be. Her recovery is considerably worse in pm, and imo, there's a lot more character's that give her trouble. However, I could certainly see her being bumped up, but I could see her at where she is on strong bad's list. I haven't really played against good samus players, but I never really struggled against her once I figured out how to beat CC spam.

I completely agree. While she hasn't had any breakout performances by anyone yet, I think she'll also start getting countered quite well once someone does start prominently using her. There are definitely ways to gimp her recovery, and if not gimp into a kill, at least punish pretty hard. Just like people aren't seeing the full power of her, they're not seeing the full weaknesses either.

 

[Lizalfos]

What if Samus could walljump directly from the ledge immediately after a tether. That would be amazing.

 

[Foo]

To be clear, I wasn't saying samus has BAD recovery. Her recovery is still amazing. It's just worse than melee because of tether. If she could walljump directly after tether... omg. That would be 3.02 for her, just don't even TRY to edgeguard her just pick a character that can sky ko her lmao.

]

 

[DiZZ]

I guess I might be the only one who thinks rob is really bad if you know how to play vs him lol

 

[Deleted member]

I guess I might be the only one who thinks rob is really bad if you know how to play vs him lol

This is nogh right?

 

[Blitzus]

I'm just curious where you're even getting that sentiment from in the context of this thread. The recent national on everyone's mind is Shots Fired, yet I have Ike tied for 9th on my tier list and only one person (Boiko) raised a defiant voice to disagree. I've had both Ike and Roy quite high on my lists since release, not in reaction to any single player's performance.\

 

[jtm94]

I don't like Sheik vs ROB. I like characters I can KO at a normal percentage and that don't CC until 100+%. That's why I like Zelda with her almost immunity to CC, KO throw if things get hairy, and Falcon toe.

You out your mind if you think GnW beats Fox. I also don't like the MU because combos and CGs on reaction are lazy so who knows. I also don't like the Tink MU recently as GnW.

 

[Shadic]

B-
| | |

I feel like the world has gotten lucky that not too many crazy Squirtle players have come out in full-force.

That character has obscene movement, armor (urgh), several powerful killing options, a killing throw, solid recovery, and a lot of easy follow-ups.

Also he's obnoxious to fight. This point should be repeated. Multiple times.

 

[Lizalfos]

Wait, there is a character that can actually CC until almost 100%? WTF PMDT nerf that **** right now.

I feel like the world has gotten lucky that not too many crazy Squirtle players have come out in full-force.

That character has obscene movement, armor (urgh), several powerful killing options, a killing throw, solid recovery, and a lot of easy follow-ups.

Also he's obnoxious to fight. This point should be repeated. Multiple times.

He can also lose any trade to a decent sex kick. If movement and kill power made characters good, then Falcon would be our lord and savior.

 

[Jity]

The thing about ROB is that he collapses under pressure. His shield got buffed in 3.5, sure, but only by 10%, and effectively that only means that he's not getting shield poked at full shield anymore. His OOS options are bad; his rolls are lengthy, his spotdodge is lengthy, his Usmash OOS, while it has a quick hitbox, is easily DIable and even punishable as long as you're only hit by the arm hitboxes. His fastest aerial OOS is Fair, which covers only immediately in front of him and, let's be honest, isn't even that quick to begin with. His best option OOS is glidetossing, which he can only do with a top in hand. On top of that, his techs are bad, so combos that stay close to the ground absolutely destroy him.

Even in the air, like Drinking Food pointed out, he doesn't have quick aerials, and his two options are to Z-drop the top (which is very fast, admittedly, but, like glidetossing OOS, dependent on actually having the top at the time, and doesn't actually cover that much space) and boost away. Boost takes five frames to come out, but ROB is still in danger this entire time, and takes even more frames to actually, physically move away; with his enormous body that's still not super amazing, and it ends up leaving him about average in regards to how other floaties get combo'd, I think.

ROB's one really solid defensive option is CCing, and that gets beaten wholesale by a grab. As a floaty, a lot of characters can't get a good followup on ROB, but it's by no means impossible: Falcon gets aerial followups, Ness gets aerial followups, Mario gets aerial followups, etc. And some characters, even if they can't combo him in the air out of a throw, can still force a tech chase situation (which, as you'll recall, ROB is hilariously bad at), such as Kirby, Fox, Game and Watch, etc. Obviously characters exist that can't do either of these options, but it's not like this is an across the board thing that no character can deal with. He's no worse than any other floaty in this regard.

 

[NTG]

I feel like the world has gotten lucky that not too many crazy Squirtle players have come out in full-force.

That character has obscene movement, armor (urgh), several powerful killing options, a killing throw, solid recovery, and a lot of easy follow-ups.

Also he's obnoxious to fight. This point should be repeated. Multiple times.

Luigi wavedash and Captain Falcon aerial movement is pretty nice, sure, but uh...he's got stubby lil arms and legs that don't reach so good, nothing to worry about really

 

[Deleted member]

reading this thread is like slamming my **** in an oven door over and over

squirtle is definitely obnoxious but probably fine overall

 

[Frosti]

Wait, there is a character that can actually CC until almost 100%? WTF PMDT nerf that **** right now.
He can also lose any trade to a decent sex kick. If movement and kill power made characters good, then Falcon would be our lord and savior.

Are you trying to tell me Falcon is not our lord and savior?

 

[Soft Serve]

This is what happens when smashboards threads get posted in the reddits. Its like the same information is getting said over and over again and no one is checking back a few posts to see if anyone said anything

and the regulars are bickering again.


My only big gripe with SB's list is snakes placement. I really don't think he is a very good character. Horrible neutral, punish game reliant heavily on tech chases and reads, as well as set-up before hand. Abusable recovery (although some characters dont have good answers to it). He's just slow as balls. Prof pro and Rolex (and johny westside still? i still dont know much of who still plays in socal) get results with him, but they are the only real 2. Pikachu and Jiggs when played near the top of their capacity have great MU spreads in PM and I feel they are mid tier (or in pikas place top 20), but I get that when you only have Hbox and Axe really pushing the characters limits, and neither really enjoy PM that much, the characters are effectively low tier in the average tourney environment. So why is Snake that much different, when on paper he's probably worse than characters below him, and has just as bad of representation?


But yeah I like SB's list up until like, sonic, afterwards I don't agree with the ordering but its the top 25ish or so that really matter atm

 

[Lizalfos]

This is what happens when smashboards threads get posted in the reddits. Its like the same information is getting said over and over again and no one is checking back a few posts to see if anyone said anything

and the regulars are bickering again.


My only big gripe with SB's list is snakes placement. I really don't think he is a very good character. Horrible neutral, punish game reliant heavily on tech chases and reads, as well as set-up before hand. Abusable recovery (although some characters dont have good answers to it). He's just slow as balls. Prof pro and Rolex (and johny westside still? i still dont know much of who still plays in socal) get results with him, but they are the only real 2. Pikachu and Jiggs when played near the top of their capacity have great MU spreads in PM and I feel they are mid tier (or in pikas place top 20), but I get that when you only have Hbox and Axe really pushing the characters limits, and neither really enjoy PM that much, the characters are effectively low tier in the average tourney environment. So why is Snake that much different, when on paper he's probably worse than characters below him, and has just as bad of representation?


But yeah I like SB's list up until like, sonic, afterwards I don't agree with the ordering but its the top 25ish or so that really matter atm

I feel like you just described the Shiek Spacies matchup from Shiek's perspective.

Snake is just constantly retreating in neutral. I don't know if his grenades make it work or if that is just major flaw of his design.

I think puff is low because most characters are just better. Puff doesn't really have any standout matchups, but quite a few that are hard. Why would you play retreating bair the character when there are over 30 characters with better tools and options, including the ability to live stocks past 80 percent.

Proof Ike is op: http://youtu.be/JEMPjtw2Oyc

 

[KhanYe]

Openly acknowledging I'm a Lucario main before I post this. (SO BIASED)

I think the reason why Lucario is so hard to place on a tier list is because he has a super polarizing matchup spread. At a high level, he should body certain characters (Ganon, Dedede, Falcon, Charizard), but he also loses to a decent chunk of the cast. Here's who I personally think Lucario loses to, obviously I'm open to discussing it:



Out of those characters, here are the characters he gets BODIED by.

- No answer to shine pressure, stands during waveshines, combos Lucario hard, one of the characters who can very effectively edgeguard Lucario.
- Falco obviously combos the **** out of Lucario, and if a Falco knows the matchup, they should just sit, laser camp to bait Lucario approaches, punish hard. Can also edgeguard Lucario well.
- Wins the neutral every time, even if Lucario has aura. Can nair out of Lucario's combos at decently high percentages, outranges Lucario. Very hard to combo. Nair destroys Lucario.
- Literally cannot be combod by Lucario. Crouch cancel dsmash/nair end any combos that Lucario could potentially start, and he can combo the **** out of Lucario.
- Destroys Lucario in neutral with fireballs, combos him hard, can also nair out of combos to a lesser degree, CC dsmash eats Lucario, and between cape and bair, he can also edgeguard Lucario effectively.
- CC dtilt and one frame upB to escape any combo, while being able to combo Lucario up and down the stage? He can bucket Lucario's only projectile safely? His hitboxes stay out longer than a desperate college kid at a frat party, preventing any sort of approach from Lucario? Why did I make this explanation in question form?
- You'll notice most of the floaties have a nair that can escape any combo effectively. Peach wins the neutral, she's hard to combo, turnips are solid for edgeguards, combos Lucario hard.

All of these characters are imo at least 65-35 against Lucario when the players know the matchup. Lucario can't deal with floaties, disjoints, or good shield pressure, and especially can't deal with characters with good crouch cancel options or low-frame nairs.

Personally, I would make an argument that Lucario's neutral game is very below average WITHOUT aura, but when he has aura, which I've estimated occurs about 11 times a game (assuming Lucario deals 400%, 100% in shield damage, and starts with one aura), his neutral becomes top five in the game. However, 11 times is not that many aura charges, and if you consider that he's also spending it on recovery, combos, and aura bombs, you realize that he doesn't have the aura advantage in neutral all that often.

I just find it hard to believe that a character with that many negative matchups is a top tier character. I believe he destroys some characters, but also loses to enough characters (many of which are in the high tier) to keep him from being the top tier character some of y'all think he is.

 

[Juushichi]

I feel like the world has gotten lucky that not too many crazy Squirtle players have come out in full-force.

That character has obscene movement, armor (urgh), several powerful killing options, a killing throw, solid recovery, and a lot of easy follow-ups.

Also he's obnoxious to fight. This point should be repeated. Multiple times.

Please don't forget the mention that this character also low profiles ****ING EVERYTHING. Sword characters aside, I want to see someone play the ****ing lamest Squirtle in the world. I bet that if someone got his movement down and decided to play campy as **** they would do well.

 

[steelguttey]

if wizzrobe picked up sonic


ooooh doggy

 

[Fudgepop01]

Ayyy, KhanYe!

I agreed with every point on there besides perhaps Link (catchable projectile, heavily comboable) and Ike (QuickDraw can be dealt with via stage control by aura sphere, good combo weight imo). I dunno, it could just be that I haven't fought many good Lank/Ike mains in my region, but I generally don't have too much trouble with them unless the player I'm up against is much more experienced than I.

I also believe Sheik wins at around a 63-37 (+/- 3) ratio...though that could just be me. (Currently on a losing streak against them >.>' - so probably around 57-43 in reality)

Still, for a tier list that is said to be based on MU spread, and considering the popularity of many of those characters (least in my area x_x'), I feel like Lucario is placed way too high (2nd? ~_~'). IMO, he should be placed near the bottom of the tier he's in, or just below Falcon...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ipk + those tricks and conversions = in dat

 

[TSM Khodalyr]

@ Fudgepop01 there isn't any order in those tiers lucario isn't 2nd

Disclaimer : Lucario main -> Bias. I do have arguments though so please read lol

In my opinion with how many bad matchups lucario has and how hard he loses them, he doesn't belong to the S tier.

When people say Lucario has bad neutral, I believe what should be understood is that he loses neutral against a large chunk of the cast (disjoints #FireEmblem/Ivysaur, projectiles (see khanye's post) and the dash characters Sonic/falcon (imo falcon MU is hard, because while he can dashdance, Lucario's run speed is bad and any whiffed move is easily punishable).

And when he wins in neutral, there's also the fact there are some characters out there Lucario can't even combo (hi luigi, floaties in general are really hard to combo) which represents a major flaw for a character who relies so much on his combos.

Lucario also struggles against shield pressure (hi spacies).

Those points make me think that Lucario doesn't belong in the S tier of StrongBad's list, but more in the A tier. I wouldn't understand having Lucario in the same tier as sheik when Lucario loses hard to like 1/4 of the cast while Sheik barely loses hard to anyone.

 

[Mystic-]

Something I've been wondering about is Falcon's uthrow. Is it actually buffed or did the PMDT just decide to make as many characters as they could get away with the perfect combo weight for him? Cuz other than that he seems fine but his throw conversions are kinda nutty for a character that is pretty good at DD grabbing lol

 

[steelguttey]

people really underestimate lucario's shield pressure

**** like tomahawk aerial ground magic series into down b --> dsmash is a free shield poke