Tier List Speculation

[Foo]

Like I think sheik is crazy good, but it has nothing to do with her shield frametraps.

Shes great but shes not toxic or broken, probably the most honest character out of the top 10

idk man, I think she's probably second best behind only fox. The only thing is what makes her dumb isn't one or two things, it's just that she's really above average at just about everything, and only weak at like one or two things.

I don't think she has really good shield pressure, but it's kinda silly that, in addition to all of her other really strong traits, she also gets a -1 on shield fair. To be honest, though, it's definitely her throw game that needs adjustment, and then maybe a few other small things like this.

 

[Boiko]

But how is shiek getting you to shield jump ins. She is slow in the air, has a really high short hop, its all telegraphed unless she is doing platform things. You can just dash/roll away from her and avoid all the setups, unless you already made mistakes before hand and she has center stage so you have no room to run. The only really good shield pressure thing she has is air needles>grab on shield.

Yeah she has good frame traps and can punish people sitting in shield well, but so does Ganon, and Bowser, and snake, why are they getting people to shield unless they are playing against another slow character?

You're basically saying you shouldn't be caught in shield against Sheik which is just questionable logic. It comes down to the player vs. player aspect of the game where the threat of an option forces you to shield preemptively. Saying you shouldn't be in shield can be said for any match up in the game, yet we're always caught shielding. Sheik, like ANY CHARACTER IN THE GAME, can threaten with presence.

For example, Sheik can do an immediate fair out of her short hop, so expecting that, you shield, and if she chooses to not do the fair, well now you're in your shield with her coming down at you. And although you can probably wavedash OoS, unless you get the read on the situation, your reactions probably aren't fast enough.

 

[Blitzus]

- Somewhat weak to CC
- Approach is actually one of her weakest areas. (Don't confuse STUFFING approaches with actually approaching)
- One of the worst, easiest to cover recoveries in the game.
- One of the most favorable combo weights in the game.
- Has trouble landing/getting down from juggles.
- Turns into a worse character with Down-B
- Side B is basically useless.
- Not as OP as NTSC Melee Sheik
- Doesn't do your taxes for you.

 

[Soft Serve]

You all need to watch five minutes of a Fox vs. Sheik set in melee on the real.

2 games of fox vs shiek, lucky and m2k. M2k only converts off of lucky shielding 3 times. the first was shield stab needles. The 2nd, M2k did fair>instant sh Nair and it caught lucky's attempt at jumping out to the platform above him. 3rd, m2k did ftilt>Uptilt>dsmash, the dsmash caught lucky trying to shield grab the uptilt. Generally lucky avoiding shielding all together and just dashed away, but lucky got more convertions from shielding m2k's attempts at catching OoS options than m2k got from trying them. Lucky got multiple shield grabs and many sh dair OoS to punish dsmash attempts.

Fox/shiek is melee is like the epitome of a character not having to deal with the shield stuff because they can just get out of the situation instead.


tons of characters have mixups on shields between move>jab/dsmash and move>grab. Guessing games dont make sheiks shield mixups good, especially when she sucks at setting the situation up unless she already got advantage from winning neutral earlier through stage control.


Her dthrow/bthrow is a 50/50 but even if you're a really light character is not un-reactable. I think its fine for her to have a good mixup for throws when its on a character that should generally be struggling getting grabs unless its punishing something easy to punish.

 

[Blitzus]

Sorry guys...

 

[Soft Serve]

Dthrow has a 27 frame startup animation vs bthrows 14. Dont try to react to the bthrow mixup, DI for it and react for the dthrow. 27 frames is well within human reaction times, and the animations are very different.

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-frame-data-thread-3-5.384275/

edit: Oh i didn't count the grab start up in that number, didn't read the chart correctly.
still, 21 frames to react to dthrow is completely doable.

 

[Boiko]

BThrow I read as 14 on that link.

I give up. The set you linked literally complements the points that I made about having to read Sheik's pressure, the options she has, and how the differences in melee make the PM Fox MU better for her.

If you think Sheik is completely fine as is, having more options than a huge majority of the cast and having an incredibly skewed match up spread, fine. The character requires little commitment, has a low skill ceiling, and incredibly high reward. That doesn't make a recipe for a good, balanced character.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Dthrow has a 27 frame startup animation vs bthrows 19. Dont try to react to the bthrow mixup, DI for it and react for the dthrow. 27 frames is well within human reaction times, and the animations are very different.

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-frame-data-thread-3-5.384275/

Nice try, but the grab is 6 frame startup. There's no reacting to the throw itself, you're already grabbed.

Edit:
@ Boiko
Sheik relies on people to open themselves up for punishment. Most of her approaches at low % are really bad.
So the game plan is usually to wait for you to do something dumb, then capitalize. The video Softie posted reflects this.

 

[Ripple]

thats not how frame data works.

you don't subtract the grab frames from the throw animation.

also, I'm questioning the legitimacy of that because grabs do not come out on frame 6. the fastest grabs are frame 7

 

[Magus420]

Tether? Bait the shield grab by not jabbing and punish?

You said:

And lastly, fair>jab technically isn't safe on shield, but people respect it because after the jab, you have to anticipate either a grab or a down smash, so it's kind of pseudo safe. If she spaces jab, it's basically safe, since one of the only things that can really stuff it is shine OoS, but that doesn't have great range. Every other OoS option gets stuffed by down smash or jab, and if you choose to stay in shield, she'll probably grab. So it becomes YET ANOTHER GUESSING GAME with Sheik. You can play it safe and roll, but if she reads that, she'll follow up, or you can try to predict the grab/down smash and Wavedash OoS for down smash and punish or spot dodge grab and punish.

Your post is saying F-Air>Jab>___ is respected because of what can come after the jab, all of which lose to CC shieldgrab. I said CC shieldgrab beats F-Air>Jab, which it does.

 

[Boiko]

Nice try, but the grab is 6 frame startup. There's no reacting to the throw itself, you're already grabbed.

Edit:
@ Boiko
Sheik relies on people to open themselves up for punishment. Most of her approaches at low % are really bad.
So the game plan is usually to wait for you to do something dumb, then capitalize. The video Softie posted reflects this.

Isn't that generally why she throws needles to get people out of CC percent/force an approach?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

thats not how frame data works.

you don't subtract the grab frames from the throw animation.

also, I'm questioning the legitimacy of that because grabs do not come out on frame 6. the fastest grabs are frame 7

You're correct, the grab bubble comes on 7~8

Isn't that generally why she throws needles to get people out of CC percent/force an approach?

That's part of it, yes.

 

[Boiko]

You said:


Your post is saying F-Air>Jab>___ is respected because of what can come after the jab, all of which lose to CC shieldgrab. I said CC shieldgrab beats F-Air>Jab, which it does.

Are you saying CC the fair>shield the jab>shield grab it? Or angle your shield down so when you drop it you're CCing...or..?

 

[Jolteon]

Are you saying CC the fair>shield the jab>shield grab it? Or angle your shield down so when you drop it you're CCing...or..?

CC the jab, then grab.

 

[Foo]

Are you saying CC the fair>shield the jab>shield grab it? Or angle your shield down so when you drop it you're CCing...or..?

He means if she fairs your sheild, spamming shield grab loses to jab, but you hold down to cc the jab if it comes out, then you grab to punish the jab.

I've never seen it done, and it sounds silly, but wouldn't rapid jab beat this?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Why jab at all when you can just L-Cancel Fair into the grab itself?

 

[Boiko]

Why jab at all when you can just L-Cancel Fair into the grab itself?

Literally what I was thinking. It's just adaptive. One player adapts to the other, so at the end of the day, it doesn't make sense to argue much further, tbh. I'm more concerned about the things listed in my initial long post about characters with their free conversions off of grabs.

 

[Magus420]

You shieldgrab as f-air shieldstun ends, hold down, and continue to mash shieldgrab. If they jab it'll interrupt the grab attempt on the f-air, but then you'll grab again and punish the jab. If they don't jab, the inital shieldgrab attempt on f-air still needs to be avoided.

In Sheik's case there's too much time between jab 2 and rapid jab to always beat CC grab. Depends how the mashed inputs end up. F-air is -1 on block. Sheik would get grabbed before she grabs them doing F-air>Grab.

D-B-throw both need to be DIed by frame 17 btw. There are FSMs on them.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

You shieldgrab as f-air shieldstun ends, hold down, and continue to mash shieldgrab. If they jab it'll interrupt the grab attempt on the f-air, but then you'll grab again and punish the jab. If they don't jab the inital shieldgrab attempt on f-air needs to be avoided some other way.

In Sheik's case there's too much time between jab 2 and rapid jab to always beat CC grab. Depends how the mashed inputs end up. F-air is -1 on block. Sheik would get grabbed before she grabs them doing F-air>Grab.

D-B-throw both need to be DIed by frame 17 btw. There are FSMs on them.

Although this is true, I've never met anyone with this type of reaction time. o.o;

 

[pkblaze]

What's an FSM?

 

[Ripple]

frame speed modifier

 

[Divinokage]

It literally feels like on one side people have Melee character problems and the other have Brawl character problems. Really need to learn how to play smash. =P Sheik is good sure but i havent seen anything that is too strong. Her bthrow caught me off-guard at first but then you just DI properly.

 

[Boiko]

It literally feels like on one side people have Melee character problems and the other have Brawl character problems. Really need to learn how to play smash. =P Sheik is good sure but i havent seen anything that is too strong. Her bthrow caught me off-guard at first but then you just DI properly.

I'm one of the people that is good at melee MU's, having come from melee and still playing it probably more than PM.
I still think Sheik is dumb in PM because of how good her GOOD attributes are across the cast.

 

[steelguttey]

if wizzrobe picked up sonic


ooooh doggy

i just ****ing realized i said sonic here


i meant squirtle

my brain doesnt work in the morning i apologize

 

[Divinokage]

I'm one of the people that is good at melee MU's, having come from melee and still playing it probably more than PM.
I still think Sheik is dumb in PM because of how good her GOOD attributes are across the cast.

Does that mean people are tired of a ninja being top tier or something? Something being good across the cast just means she's great. =P

 

[DrinkingFood]

The reason Falcon's upthrow seems to work so well across the board is because of a semi unique attribute it has. With most throws, the weight of the character will effect the duration of the throwing animation. The heavier they are, the longer it takes to throw them. When they're heavier and make the throw take longer, it's also more difficult to follow up. I'm not sure on the exact details on this (though I'm sure one of you nerds does) but basically the heavier they are, the less frame advantage you have coming out of the throw. Less frame advantage = less follow ups.

Now Falcon's upthrow basically says **** that mechanic and the throw animation takes the same amount of time regardless of weight. This means that it doesn't matter if it's Bowser or Puff being thrown, the animation will take the same amount of time and you will be able to act on the same frame with Bowser as you would with Puff. This makes getting followups from character to character easier as you don't have to adjust your timings to the character's weight. Also, some characters just get combo'd well by vertical throws (basically all the fastfallers)

Lemme know what other throws act like this too so I can be knowledgeable and stuff

A lot of throws have this actually. Sheik's d/bthrow have this, ROB's d/uthrow, pretty sure ZSS back throw, also falcons dthrow I think, plenty more

 

[Deleted member]

- Somewhat weak to CC
- Approach is actually one of her weakest areas. (Don't confuse STUFFING approaches with actually approaching)
- One of the worst, easiest to cover recoveries in the game.
- One of the most favorable combo weights in the game.
- Has trouble landing/getting down from juggles.
- Turns into a worse character with Down-B
- Side B is basically useless.
- Not as OP as NTSC Melee Sheik
- Doesn't do your taxes for you.

pretty much nailed it. sheik is a fantastic character dont get me wrong, but her neutral is meh, her combo weight and general survivability is pretty low, her approaches suck, and she requires a ton of MU specific knowledge to be able to play around those things in a way that might seem doable on paper but it really sucks when youre on the spot in a tournament setting. if i'm playing marth/sonic/fox against a blind opponent, i know i'm going to DD spam, and i get time to figure it out. if i'm on ike or DDD, i might get tossed around a bit, but you have some margin for error that other characters really dont have. if youre on a character like sheik, like yeah you can stall but that doesnt really get you anything in the same way because your method of stalling doesnt really tell you much about the MU and when they get you, you can die really fast. when i played denti this weekend he routinely killed me under 40% because i didnt really have any tools to learn the MU on the fly. being forced to play defensive/reactive is good sometimes ebcause its harder to give yourself a punt but its also harder playing around an opponent that doesnt punt back.

as an aside i ****ing hate transform. i wish it did literally nothing.

 

[DMG]

@ DrinkingFood Falcon Dthrow is weight dependant. That's why it's great on floaties/mediums and not as good on people like DK

 

[Boiko]

Does that mean people are tired of a ninja being top tier or something? Something being good across the cast just means she's great. =P

I'm okay with her being great, but it gets to a point where it's relatively unfun to play against and is just an overall lame design.

That's why I'm almost 100% (recovery landing lag pls) okay with Fox. I think his design is good. He does good things well and I think he's hella fun to play as and against. He pays a good tribute to his melee self while being mildly toned down in a few key areas. I really don't care if he remains top tier. I've never felt "Fox'd" as some people like to put it playing against Animal, Codi, Mew2King, Envy, or any of the other great Fox players I've faced.

Sheik, and a few other characters in my opinion, just aren't interesting to play against. I don't think that a DI mix up into a tipper up smash killing at 80% is cool. It just feels...lame. Same with the other characters I listed a few pages back. Especially those that already have a solid neutral game.

This is just my opinion, of course. So it's everyone's right to disagree with it, but I think throws into kill follow ups should be reserved for characters who have weaker overall kill options and neutral games.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I'm one of the people that is good at melee MU's, having come from melee and still playing it probably more than PM.
I still think Sheik is dumb in PM because of how good her GOOD attributes are across the cast.

I half agree. I feel like a good chunk of the cast loses to Sheik because their attributes aren't good enough. For some chars, just pressing buttons puts you in a bad position vs Sheik. They're just too slow, imo. Inversely Sheik and her group could be slowed down.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty butt at this game.

 

[Boiko]

I half agree. I feel like a good chunk of the cast loses to Sheik because their attributes aren't good enough. For some chars, just pressing buttons puts you in a bad position vs Sheik. They're just too slow, imo. Inversely Sheik and her group could be slowed down.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty butt at this game.

I think it's a mixed boat. Ness for example, sucks against Sheik. He has nothing to beat needles in the neutral, he combos her solidly, but getting in against her is really hard. She just keeps him out really well, and edge guards him superbly. It's really just a mix of their overall attributes and her strengths countering his strengths.

 

[Deleted member]

I think it's a mixed boat. Ness for example, sucks against Sheik. He has nothing to beat needles in the neutral, he combos her solidly, but getting in against her is really hard. She just keeps him out really well, and edge guards him superbly. It's really just a mix of their overall attributes and her strengths countering his strengths.

i played some ness player from OK that routinely combod my sheik to death this weekend. the MU is definitely not as one-sided as people make it out to be.

 

[trash?]

I mean... didn't every guarantee sheik to be top 5 after all the overall recovery nerfs, anyhow

it's not inherently bugged up to say she's a bit silly to deal with off the edge

 

[Boiko]

i played some ness player from OK that routinely combod my sheik to death this weekend. the MU is definitely not as one-sided as people make it out to be.

I mean, I played VaNz and beat his Sheik with Ness. Then I played Malachi, who has a lot of Ness experience and it went to last stock, but it's an extremely uphill battle for Ness.

Ness has no guaranteed zero to death combos on Sheik, but he can certainly combo her for a lot of damage like he can to most of the cast. If she gets him off stage though, needles force a low recovery (or if you're good, just take his PKT bolt and kill him), ftilt scoops him out of his recovery since his hitbox is inside him, not in front of him, and that leads to a fair/uair depending on stage/percent/etc. Or you can just fair/bair him out of it. And she gets guaranteed follow ups on grabs almost always, regardless of his DI.

Was it Zeej by chance?

 

[Deleted member]

yeah it was, and ness's combos on sheik look the same as marths on most of the cast- you get them to the edge, and then you just hold adv until you can confirm the kill. the char isnt perfect at it (neither is marth) but hes certainly capable or manhandling you if you punt. personally i had an easier time vs awestin because awestin didn't deathtouch me back.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Dthrow has a 27 frame startup animation vs bthrows 14. Dont try to react to the bthrow mixup, DI for it and react for the dthrow. 27 frames is well within human reaction times, and the animations are very different.

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-frame-data-thread-3-5.384275/

edit: Oh i didn't count the grab start up in that number, didn't read the chart correctly.
still, 21 frames to react to dthrow is completely doable.

Already said but yeah this guy's info is wrong. Bthrow/dthrow both throw frame 17 meaning you have to input DI frame 16 or earlier. Add to this that the throws' initial two frames are almost indistinguishable at full speed, so your effective reaction time is 14 frames ASSUMING you actually catch the third frame visually. Don't bring up that human metrics bull**** as that only accounts for twitch reaction time and not decision based reaction time.

 

[CyberZixx]

I'm okay with her being great, but it gets to a point where it's relatively unfun to play against and is just an overall lame design.

That's why I'm almost 100% (recovery landing lag pls) okay with Fox. I think his design is good. He does good things well and I think he's hella fun to play as and against. He pays a good tribute to his melee self while being mildly toned down in a few key areas. I really don't care if he remains top tier. I've never felt "Fox'd" as some people like to put it playing against Animal, Codi, Mew2King, Envy, or any of the other great Fox players I've faced.

Sheik, and a few other characters in my opinion, just aren't interesting to play against. I don't think that a DI mix up into a tipper up smash killing at 80% is cool. It just feels...lame. Same with the other characters I listed a few pages back. Especially those that already have a solid neutral game.

This is just my opinion, of course. So it's everyone's right to disagree with it, but I think throws into kill follow ups should be reserved for characters who have weaker overall kill options and neutral games.

See, that is super subjective. The way you feel about Fox is how I feel about Sheik and I personally really dislike playing vs Fox in PM.

 

[trash?]

shoutouts to DF tbh

you're like the only one that bothers to go through good frame data research and some people still argue with you over it

 

[Boiko]

yeah it was, and ness's combos on sheik look the same as marths on most of the cast- you get them to the edge, and then you just hold adv until you can confirm the kill. the char isnt perfect at it (neither is marth) but hes certainly capable or manhandling you if you punt. personally i had an easier time vs awestin because awestin didn't deathtouch me back.

I personally thought Awestin was pretty mediocre tbqh. (Edit: Mediocre is a strong word. But I never felt like he utilized everything Ness could do.)

Zeej is a top five Ness behind only Stereo, myself, and maybe Tetra, so it's not surprise he did really well.
That's the thing about Ness, he gets something going and he takes it forever. I don't think the MU is unwinnable by any means, and I don't think it's as bad as Samus or Zelda, but it's pretty rough, IMO.

@ DrinkingFood Thanks for confirming, knew I heard 14 frames somewhere!

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Already said but yeah this guy's info is wrong. Bthrow/dthrow both throw frame 17 meaning you have to input DI frame 16 or earlier. Add to this that the throws' initial two frames are almost indistinguishable at full speed, so your effective reaction time is 14 frames ASSUMING you actually catch the third frame visually. Don't bring up that human metrics bull**** as that only accounts for twitch reaction time and not decision based reaction time.

Bah, where were you all this time?