Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

I don't have anything right now, since the main location I play at (Nebulous in NYC), recently moved to a new venue and hasn't gotten internet up yet. But you really just need to think about it. Bair has a good amount of cool down, and her ability to weave away with it saves her from a lot of follow ups, but some characters can still punish it.

And I'm sure she could sweep in behind and stage spike, but that can be teched, so it's not an incredibly reliable option.

I just can't see how Ness can punish an approaching SH bair into either a retreating DJ bair or shield.

Edit: you got any data on kill%s?

 

[Boiko]

I just can't see how Ness can punish an approaching SH bair into either a retreating DJ bair or shield.

Edit: you got any data on kill%s?

Kill percentages are really contingent upon stage. But bair/uair are his most reliably kill moves in the MU.

 

[eideeiit]

When are they not, actually?

 

[Boiko]

When are they not, actually?

Spacies. :3

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Why do Sheiks always f-tilt after a down-throw? Regrab seems so much stronger in most situations, and I still can't believe I have seen next to no Sheik do the proper boost grab to regrab (c-stick dash attack to get the dash attack after just 1 frame of dash and not minimum 3 frames of dash, grab next frame).

 

[Mr.Pickle]

F-tilt is bigger and covers more options, it also leads into a grab, or just about anything else. Pretty much with f-tilt you don't have to guess where they're going.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Why do Sheiks always f-tilt after a down-throw? Regrab seems so much stronger in most situations, and I still can't believe I have seen next to no Sheik do the proper boost grab to regrab (c-stick dash attack to get the dash attack after just 1 frame of dash and not minimum 3 frames of dash, grab next frame).

Usually it's only bad sheiks that will ftilt after a dthrow. I don't recall where, but I'm pretty sure it was KirbyKaze who said that you pretty much always have a better followup - either regrab, usmash, or utilt.

@ Mr.Pickle
I'm pretty sure that Ftilt doesn't typically lead to regrab actually - iirc it's typically ftilt again (if opponent has atrocious DI) or fair or bust.

@Umbreon please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Eh I could be wrong, but it sounded okayish in my head. An actual sheik main might be able to shed better light on this lol.

 

[eideeiit]

Kirbykaze said that about NTSC Melee, though, I presume. As far as I know in PAL and so probably in PM too Sheik only has a guaranteed tech chase or ftilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

I would rather nair than Ftilt as sheik. 4 more damage and neither gets a followup vs good players; more likely to knock them down too.

 

[KhanYe]

Thinking about it, the Lucario - Ness MU would be pretty fun to watch, they both have mediocre projectiles but can combo the other fairly easily. Interesting neutral that isn't super fast but isn't slow.

I disagree with Falco's lasers meaning almost nothing to Ness but I think I agree with Falco being the easiest of the spacies in terms of the MU. A good Falco should be spacing the lasers ~1 SH/Dash Attack away so Ness should be having some trouble. I guess Ness could mag around a platform. I'm hoping to play some Ness vs. people at Olympus so I'll tell you guys what I think.

Oh my goodness Ness Lucario is so goddamn fun. Truly just a momentum based matchup. NZA and myself are gonna try and stream one night next week, hopefully, so you guys can tune in and watch us go bonkers.

 

[Jolteon]

KK is correct, ftilt is a poor combo move from dthrow usually. Other options either expand your punish tree to a greater degree, or simply do extra damage.

PM Sheik also has some interesting follow-ups on suboptimal DI that NTSC Sheik doesn't get to enjoy, like tipper usmash at KO %s.

 

[Deleted member]

Usually it's only bad sheiks that will ftilt after a dthrow. I don't recall where, but I'm pretty sure it was KirbyKaze who said that you pretty much always have a better followup - either regrab, usmash, or utilt.

@ Mr.Pickle
I'm pretty sure that Ftilt doesn't typically lead to regrab actually - iirc it's typically ftilt again (if opponent has atrocious DI) or fair or bust.

@Umbreon please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this

i usually do ftilt to keep people honest, but not too often, and almost never out of dthrow

it is sheik though so optimizing her is fairly difficult when all of your moves do roughly the same thing (and by that i mean they combo into fair)

 

[Juushichi]

I think Ness vs Puff is 4-6 or 45-55, not sure which Puffs the Ness' in the Tristate area are playing or if they're good or not (not sure), but my testing with SoulPech and Abu has lead me to believe otherwise. It is a very lame MU where I hope trades happen, I pay REALLY good attention to my percents and when I get the lead I camp like a ************. But this does not happen very often.

I've been able to punish sloppy bairs with DJ bair OoS, DJ fair OoS has been spotty at best. My Ness is far from the best in the world or anything, but I play long sets with him for fun. Most of my games hover around Smashville, PS2, DP (if legal), FD. If I felt more comfortable, I think I would play FoD/YS. I try to avoid BF and DL, though.

 

[Rizner]

I think Ness vs Puff is 4-6 or 45-55, not sure which Puffs the Ness' in the Tristate area are playing or if they're good or not (not sure), but my testing with SoulPech and Abu has lead me to believe otherwise. It is a very lame MU where I hope trades happen, I pay REALLY good attention to my percents and when I get the lead I camp like a mother****er. But this does not happen very often.

I've been able to punish sloppy bairs with DJ bair OoS, DJ fair OoS has been spotty at best. My Ness is far from the best in the world or anything, but I play long sets with him for fun. Most of my games hover around Smashville, PS2, DP (if legal), FD. If I felt more comfortable, I think I would play FoD/YS. I try to avoid BF and DL, though.

How does sp do against Drephen's Ness?

 

[Boiko]

How does sp do against Drephen's Ness?

Drephen's Ness is uh, questionable.

 

[steelguttey]

(THAT MEANS HE ****ING SUCKS)

 

[Rizner]

Drephen's Ness is uh, questionable.

Haha, nice. Still curious how these go lol

 

[Juushichi]

Drephen doesn't play Ness in 3.5 and stopped playing him before the end of 3.02. Before he would still play Sheik vs SoulPech, so yeah.

Short answer: they don't go anywhere.

 

[Rizner]

Drephen doesn't play Ness in 3.5 and stopped playing him before the end of 3.02. Before he would still play Sheik vs SoulPech, so yeah.

Short answer: they don't go anywhere.

Ah, ok. Wasn't sure if he still used Ness against others at all.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Ripple do you still think D3 beats Marth? Your recent set against Dart looked like a struggle, but it was tough for me to tell if it's just because he's an amazing player or if the MU is less great than previously thought.

 

[Ripple]

it was 4:30am. it was a bad tournament, and I was extremely tired.

DDD still beats marth.

Dart's also a much better player than me in general

 

[Boiko]

it was 4:30am. it was a bad tournament, and I was extremely tired.

DDD still beats marth.

Dart's also a much better player than me in general

Could you explain why you think D3 wins the Samus MU? I played a solid D3 player at Nebulous who definitely knew what he was doing with the character but he had a really hard time dealing with Samus after I switched off of Ness. I can tell there was a bit of MU inexperience on his end simply due to the amount he teched on platforms, and I felt his CP to PS2 pretty much guaranteed me the set.

What's D3's answer to missile spam, for example? I'm sure he does a pretty good job at edge guarding her, but I feel like the neutral is hard for him.

 

[DMG]

Doing Ftilt out of Sheik Dthrow has some place in PM. Just depends more on %, opposing character, and stage positioning to be optimal, than regrabs or other follow ups.

 

[jtm94]

Sheik ftilt to regrab is so BnB. I will never stop.

downthrow ftilt, jab1, jab2, regrab, bthrow, nair, boost grab/dash attack. Repeat.

I saw Drephen's Ness once like a year ago, his Sheik was at least 25675246X better.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Could you explain why you think D3 wins the Samus MU? I played a solid D3 player at Nebulous who definitely knew what he was doing with the character but he had a really hard time dealing with Samus after I switched off of Ness. I can tell there was a bit of MU inexperience on his end simply due to the amount he teched on platforms, and I felt his CP to PS2 pretty much guaranteed me the set.

What's D3's answer to missile spam, for example? I'm sure he does a pretty good job at edge guarding her, but I feel like the neutral is hard for him.

yes answer this so i can win next time pls rip

i do think my stage selection was really dumb and played a factor in that brutal last game.

 

[DMG]

PS2 is so big. Why is it so big

 

[Boiko]

yes answer this so i can win next time pls rip

i do think my stage selection was really dumb and played a factor in that brutal last game.

Heeheehee.
See you in R2 doubles at Shots Fired btw. Lmao.

 

[PlateProp]

PS2 is so big. Why is it so big

Because Falcon is broken

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So why does luigi have 5 frames of invincibility on side b? That seems kinda wacky to me.

 

[The Baron]

So why does luigi have 5 frames of invincibility on side b? That seems kinda wacky to me.

wait he does? da ****?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It starts on frame 13, lasts for 5 frames, and the last frame of invincibility is the first frame the hitbox comes out. The wonders of debug mode.

Edit - Confirmed invincibility......why is this a thing?

 

[Ripple]

I'm going to explain why in a huge response since people still think some of my replies are trolling or aren't very helpful to them. it'll go into depth about something so simple that other people just don't seem to realize it, or if they do. their character can't actually do anything about it

 

[jtm94]

So why does luigi have 5 frames of invincibility on side b? That seems kinda wacky to me.

Things I've been saying for a while but no one cares when I say it.

 

[9bit]

PS2 is so big. Why is it so big

If it was like halfway between itself and Battlefield (in terms of width) I think it might actually be the perfect stage

 

[DrinkingFood]

Tier List Confession thread?

EDIT: Wow hylian abusing admin privilege to move your post to the right thread I see how it no don't mind us other users who just honestly edit our mistakes and repost in the correct thread

 

[DMG]

Confessions time:

Spoiler

 

[Hylian]

Holy **** wrong thread LOL

 

[SpiderMad]

Confessions time:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FHC6ckJPMY

 

[MudkipUniverse]

YAY MY TIER LIST:
nerf plz:
A:
B+:
B:
B-:
C:
plz fix:
lol wtf:

Others: don't know where to put Zelda and ZSS