Tier List Speculation

[eideeiit]

People respect Ike's Aether to ridiculous amounts. It has no hitbox when he jumps up to get the sword, on the first three frames once he's caught the sword or on the last 6 frames before he starts plunging down and he can grab ledge. Also Ike only has armor when he's thrown the blade and is getting ready for the jump. Anyone should be able to consistently hit these windows with something if Ike is forced to Aether.

 

[jtm94]

@GabPR I will inform my local Sonic main. Praise +1 on shield.

@ eideeiit I can trade with Ike's UpB using Zelda kick, I've Sheik slapped him out of it, and GnW's dtilt outspaces it if he doesn't go to the stage.

 

[Strong Badam]

If I made a Tier List it'd just be Lunchables' list from a while ago with like 5 chars moved or swapped. That dude understands the metagame rn.

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:

Characters that I don't know what to do with:
(Don't know whether Top or High)
(Don't know whether Upper or Lower mid)
(Don't know whether Upper mid or High)

Like usual, this tier list is not in order with in the tiers, they're simply grouped together.

 

[Paradoxium]

So does a tier list represent the current meta game? Or does it represent how good/bad a character is relative to the cast?

 

[Strong Badam]

The two options you gave are one in the same. A tier list represents how good each character is at winning tournaments, independent of player skill, which also describes what the metagame is.
It is useless (in the context of a tier list) to put forth notions such as "I think X character will be better in the future when people explore their options." That's a notion for metagame advancement and better suited to Character Discussion boards, not discussion of the current meta and the ability for characters to win tournaments right now with the knowledge we currently have.

 

[Frost | Odds]

If I made a Tier List it'd just be Lunchables' list from a while ago with like 5 chars moved or swapped. That dude understands the metagame rn.

what would you change?

 

[Beorn]

If I made a Tier List it'd just be Lunchables' list from a while ago with like 5 chars moved or swapped. That dude understands the metagame rn.

DO IT THEN BRUH!

Seriously though. I want to see those 5 or so swaps. I know I would put wario and peach in the high tier. I would also put kirby and ganon into upper mid, and Marth into top.

 

[Strong Badam]

I really don't think Wario is high tier. His kit is great, but he's bad in the meta. Losing to the two most popular characters and randomly struggling with low tiers is usually not a recipe for a high tier in PM.

I may sit down sometime and make my own list, maybe after Shots Fired. It would be pretty similar to Lunchables' tho.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, thats not fair, I had to make my list BEFORE the PM National

waiting for a national to make the list is cheating, IM TELLING MY MOM ON YOU

 

[Strong Badam]

your mother is cheating

 

[VinceX]

y'all have literally been given rose orbs from street fighter. how is that not amazing

I've always imagined her new din's ressembled Bridget's yoyos, albeit being slower and having far less options with it

 

[PlateProp]

your mother is cheating

the real reason strong bad took lunchables home that night

 

[PootisKonga]

So I was talking to the few PM players at my scene and they agreed that Bowser was OP when I sarcastically mentioned so, for the reason "He forces you to play his game just because he holds down"

Like, what? You're Falco and you're lasering and dairing a crawling Bowser at the start of every match lol

 

[Soft Serve]

So I was talking to the few PM players at my scene and they agreed that Bowser was OP when I sarcastically mentioned so, for the reason "He forces you to play his game just because he holds down"

Like, what? You're Falco and you're lasering and dairing a crawling Bowser at the start of every match lol

This is the exact same reaction I get when I play new people and they complain about Bananas being good. Which they are, but its also really really easy to tech chase when you miss every tech and all you do is get up attack

The average quality of PM player game understanding/comprehension is really poor which makes me sad

 

[PootisKonga]

My reply was that Bowser loses 420-0 to the purple button (jump? Lol z-jumper), but they didn't take me seriously

 

[Frost | Odds]

In fairness, the MU is pretty tough as falco

You gotta actually

use your brain and stuff.

rip falco players

 

[Player -0]

Walk them over to a Melee setup and then 4 stock them with Pichu. Works for me.

Also challenging person who got 2nd at Turtle Smash 2 (Pretty decently sized state monthly) to an All Random All Star. He only plays Peach (I think). Should be interesting.

 

[PootisKonga]

Walk them over to a Melee setup and then 4 stock them with Pichu

>implying I know how to Melee

 

[Player -0]

>implying I know how to Melee

Once you play P:M decently, you adjust to small changes and you're set. I last played Melee at the last tournament I was at (like a year ago and it was like, 4 matches) and never really played it competitively or casually because I didn't own it, straight to Brawl from 64 lyfe.

 

[PootisKonga]

Once you play P:M decently, you adjust to small changes and you're set.

Mostly yeah, but as a Z jumper transitioning to vanilla controls I often forget the Z button exists.
The best I managed in Melee today was doing a whole bunch of wavelands as Yoshi to troll my opponents.

Then again I hadn't played PM in 5 days and Melee in longer because family vacation johns

 

[foxygrandpa]

If I had to make a MU chart it would look something like this:

-3: (35:65)
-2: (40:60)
-1: (45:55)
0: (50:50)
+1: (55:45)
+2: (60:40)
+3: (65:35)

Some up for debaters are Luigi being worse for Ness, Lucas being worse for Ness, Lucario being better for Ness, Kirby being worse for Ness, Marth being worse for Ness.

Something like that.

I would swap ike and sheik personally.
Why are sheik and zelda that bad? For sheik it seems slightly in her favor but more or less stage dependent to me but idk much about ness so I could be wrong. Zelda might beat him but I dont see why it would be by that large of a margin.
Ike is 60:40 at best for ness if the ike knows how to use QD properly in the neutral against him. Ness's longer range options are kind of slow and he has a hard time of keeping him out, and punish game is in ike's favor like it is in every matchup because of his dumb throws. The only good stage picks for ness are platform stages and even so ike still probably has the upper hand there.
Not 100 percent on this, but I think kirby-ness is probably even. I picked him up recently out of boredom and even though he has issues with ness's disjoints I think the punish game is in his favor against a lot of floaties. He's underrated because no one super good plays with him now but he's still probably not too strong of a character.

 

[Boiko]

I would swap ike and sheik personally.
Why are sheik and zelda that bad? For sheik it seems slightly in her favor but more or less stage dependent to me but idk much about ness so I could be wrong. Zelda might beat him but I dont see why it would be by that large of a margin.
Ike is 60:40 at best for ness if the ike knows how to use QD properly in the neutral against him. Ness's longer range options are kind of slow and he has a hard time of keeping him out, and punish game is in ike's favor like it is in every matchup because of his dumb throws. The only good stage picks for ness are platform stages and even so ike still probably has the upper hand there.
Not 100 percent on this, but I think kirby-ness is probably even. I picked him up recently out of boredom and even though he has issues with ness's disjoints I think the punish game is in his favor against a lot of floaties. He's underrated because no one super good plays with him now but he's still probably not too strong of a character.

Zelda can out camp Ness and force him to approach super hard. When he does, all of her moves beat his in the air. Plus, since she's a super floaty, he can't combo her. Basically, it's trading hits, and hers are faster, and kill earlier, and have more range. And you can't camp her because she'll just spam DF and Ness is too slow to punish. And her neutral B is so bad for your recovery.

 

[Rizner]

I like being rude to zelda players, and I like looking at people in hindsight, so I'd like to leave this gfy here

y'all have literally been given rose orbs from street fighter. how is that not amazing

Because, like you (I assume), I think it's really dumb. I don't think it's terrible but the entire design and implementation is really convoluted and not really fun.

People talking about Ness being good, is NZA's opinion on Ness really that far off from what others feel?

(as seen here)

I agree with that video. I honestly do not think I'll lose to a ness as Zelda. And like they were saying, he has lots of matchups like that.

Zelda can out camp Ness and force him to approach super hard. When he does, all of her moves beat his in the air. Plus, since she's a super floaty, he can't combo her. Basically, it's trading hits, and hers are faster, and kill earlier, and have more range. And you can't camp her because she'll just spam DF and Ness is too slow to punish. And her neutral B is so bad for your recovery.

I think neutral b is biggest in the neutral game - it stops (pretty much) all of his approaches if she's smart with it aside from bat, which ftilt beats out. But this is pretty much it - she pretty much just has the tools to deal with Ness's entire kit. There's no real way for you to get in on her, and if the Zelda messes up a few times and you do get in, the amount you can do with it isn't that much if the Zelda is smart, has good DI to get away from things, and knows when she can get a quick punish in.

 

[Boiko]

@ Rizner yeah, it's insanely hard for Ness, but really not impossible. He has some weird tricks on her recovery and ftilt should not outrange the bat. Even Roy's ftilt doesn't beat bat. Also, if he does bait a Nayru's out, tipper fsmash would kill at around 60% on most stages besides the big ones. Last thing, he does have some funky ground control techs that make the MU kind of hard for Zelda on stages like GHZ, PS2, and Smashville. But, meh. Still bad.

 

[Player -0]

Ness' Bat Tipper is kinda messed up. It's like, longer and stronger than Marth's F-Smash.

 

[_A1]

In fairness, the MU is pretty tough as falco

You gotta actually

use your brain and stuff.

rip falco players

Good Falcos DO use their brains in both Melee and PM. Typical Falcos are the ones who play like robots and have a specific rhythm all the time(it's hard breaking the habit), doing linear lasers and dairs. Smart Falcos like PP actually mix up their options. Braindead Falcos just camp or approach mindlessly.

 

[mimgrim]

My reply was that Bowser loses 420-0 to the purple button (jump? Lol z-jumper), but they didn't take me seriously

Pffft. Z-jumping is lame. Z-attacking is where it is at yo.

 

[Akhenderson]

Comparing mine with Boiko's, my match up list for Ness is more like this:

-3: (35:65)
-2: (40:60)
-1: (45:55)
0: (50:50)
+1: (55:45)
+2: (60:40)
+3: (65:35)

 

[Deleted member]

I still don't know why you guys have roy in even

Your punish game on him isn't even hella broken anymore, roy wins neutral, sword, counter to edge guard, blah blah

 

[steelguttey]

well if roys ftilt is a projectile cant ness reflect it?

 

[KhanYe]

As someone who's played the matchup a ton against NZA, without PK Fire activating on shield, I don't think Ness beats Lucario. I think it's either even or slightly in Lucario's favor. Lucario can avoid any and all of Ness's approaches in neutral (Fair, PKF). Ness and Lucario have comparable punish games on one another, however.

I don't get how you can argue that Ness wins against Jigglypuff or Kirby when edgeguards on Ness are essentially free. Get them off the stage, get rid of their double jump, and run into their PKT. Easy money. Disjoints may be a problem for Kirby, but he's still capable of edgeguarding Ness at any percentage effectively, and I'd argue that Kirby's punish game on Ness is just as good, if not better than the converse.

I'm with @Lunchables in being very surprised y'all think Roy is even for all the reasons he outlined.

Besides those three, I'd say @ Akhenderson 's list is more accurate to how I feel, @ Boiko .

 

[Boiko]

It doesn't really matter that Jiggs and Kirby can edge guard Ness if they're not going to be able to get him off stage in the first place. He walls them out with disjoints better than they can to him. The angle above them that he camps is a blindspot that they can't hit. Then, he can space out an fsmash, and kill them at 60% since his tippered fsmash is like, fourth strongest in the game. Also, getting him off stage is one thing, and edge guarding his recovery is another. Just "jumping into PKT" is easy against a scrubby Ness, maybe, but a good Ness will mix up their recovery distances, fading in and out, and using magnet to stall so you can't really guess where they are recovering. And if you guess wrong, and get to him too late, you risk getting hit by PKT2 during his 7 frames of invincibility, or letting him back to stage before you.

As for going even with Roy, Ness forces Roy to approach, since crouch cancelling PK Fire is bad. Sure he can dtilt the bolt, but that still activates a pillar and resets the situation. Ness' aerial mobility combined with b reversing/wavebouncing magnets into b reversed/wavebounce PK Fire make avoid PK Fire a lot harder than it needs to be. Plus, if Roy decides to throw out an aerial near a dash dancing Ness, pivot PK Fire is going to catch him. So Roy is forced to keep the pressure on Ness and basically trap him in a corner. If he can't do that, the MU becomes really hard for Roy. Ness still has a CG on Roy and can combo him easily to 80 percent off of one grab, and edge guarding him is as simple as just jumping out and throwing out a magnet rising nair to regrab ledge then drop nair. It covers almost every stall option as long as you time it right. Or you could just dsmash if he doesn't sweet spot. Also, his dair isn't CCable and it comes out on frame 6. On the flip side, Roy has great edge guarding against Ness in that all he needs to do is charge B if Ness is below the ledge or he can just jump up and counter. He has DI mixups on his fthrow and dthrow that can lead to an fsmash at low percents and he juggles Ness decently well.

As for Lucario, Ness doesn't need to approach. His 6 frame dtilt stops almost everything Lucario can do. I played against Searing Arrow, a solid Lucario player from MD/VA and I baited out approaches, and then just CC dtilted into a combo string. If he started to get something going, Ness' 5 frame nair combined with his decent weight get him out of a lot of combos. And Lucario has a hard time dealing with a raw yoyo blocking his path or edge guarding him.

As for Aki's list, I agree with a lot of it. But a few notes. Ness has a hard time dealing with shield pressure, so he needs to prevent it from happening in the first place. Good luck doing that against Wolf. Falco's lasers mean almost nothing to Ness. He's far and away the easiest spacie to deal with IMO. Zelda is in no way 55-45 Zelda. At the ABSOLUTE least it's 60-40 for all the reasons I stated earlier. I also think Peach is a hella hard MU that requires the utmost patience, but I think her punish game on Ness is just too good for it to be even.

 

[Player -0]

Thinking about it, the Lucario - Ness MU would be pretty fun to watch, they both have mediocre projectiles but can combo the other fairly easily. Interesting neutral that isn't super fast but isn't slow.

I disagree with Falco's lasers meaning almost nothing to Ness but I think I agree with Falco being the easiest of the spacies in terms of the MU. A good Falco should be spacing the lasers ~1 SH/Dash Attack away so Ness should be having some trouble. I guess Ness could mag around a platform. I'm hoping to play some Ness vs. people at Olympus so I'll tell you guys what I think.

 

[Boiko]

Thinking about it, the Lucario - Ness MU would be pretty fun to watch, they both have mediocre projectiles but can combo the other fairly easily. Interesting neutral that isn't super fast but isn't slow.

I disagree with Falco's lasers meaning almost nothing to Ness but I think I agree with Falco being the easiest of the spacies in terms of the MU. A good Falco should be spacing the lasers ~1 SH/Dash Attack away so Ness should be having some trouble. I guess Ness could mag around a platform. I'm hoping to play some Ness vs. people at Olympus so I'll tell you guys what I think.

I'll be playing him a good amount at Shots Fired too. Should be fun!

 

[Ripple]

Did I just read that ness walls out Jiggs in the air and then will just bait something until F smash. And that ness isn't extremely easy to edgeguard?

Sounds like very low level play to me

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Thinking about it, the Lucario - Ness MU would be pretty fun to watch, they both have mediocre projectiles but can combo the other fairly easily. Interesting neutral that isn't super fast but isn't slow.

I disagree with Falco's lasers meaning almost nothing to Ness but I think I agree with Falco being the easiest of the spacies in terms of the MU. A good Falco should be spacing the lasers ~1 SH/Dash Attack away so Ness should be having some trouble. I guess Ness could mag around a platform. I'm hoping to play some Ness vs. people at Olympus so I'll tell you guys what I think.

If anything, wolf would be the easiest spacie to beat.

 

[Boiko]

Did I just read that ness walls out Jiggs in the air and then will just bait something until F smash. And that ness isn't extremely easy to edgeguard?

Sounds like very low level play to me

Sounds like you don't play with good Jiggs players like I do. Ness can punish the cool down of Bair with his ridiculous aerial mobility, so jiggs can't keep him out. Or work her way in for that matter. And yeah, there are only a handful of characters that can reliably go off stage and punish Ness' recovery consistently and easily. It's almost always better to wait on stage and punish the landing. And people sleep on how stupid good Ness' fsmash is if you read a commitment. Sure, Jiggs has decent disjoint on her bair, but it really does mean anything 45 degrees up, and the abysmal hitbox on her uair isn't doing her any favors. Jiggs taking to the skies against Ness isn't favorable for her.

And FTR: Vague, one sentence disagreements aren't good for anything.

@ Hinichii.ez.™ I have a lot of experience with all spacies. Falco is the easiest at least for me. Wolf puts a lot of pressure on with nair>shine and if he forces Ness into shield, he gets a TON more off of a grab than Falco does. Falco's lasers aren't a huge problem, using magnet on them really isn't bad since it resets the magnet hitbox, but aside from that, if Ness closes the gap, or uses platforms, it's not safe for Falco to laser in fear in eating a PK Fire. Wolf can laser more safely since he can waveland out of it in either direction. Edge guarding Falco is also easier than edge guarding Wolf, although neither is particularly hard if you read it. Plus, Wolf has a more consistent, easier to land edge guard, IMO with the end hitbox of upsmash vs. Falco who can do a ledgehop dair, or dsmash, which are both good in the MU, but definitely not AS good. Just my opinion.

 

[eideeiit]

@ Boiko
Could you link any videos with this "punishing the cooldown of bair" thing. It sounds kind of incredible and I'd like to see it for myself, but the only match I found with "pm 3.5 jigglypuff vs ness" was a 4-stock and the Ness was clearly outclassed as a player.

Also, couldn't Jiggs edgeguard Ness from behind with stagespiking or something?

 

[Boiko]

@ Boiko
Could you link any videos with this "punishing the cooldown of bair" thing. It sounds kind of incredible and I'd like to see it for myself, but the only match I found with "pm 3.5 jigglypuff vs ness" was a 4-stock and the Ness was clearly outclassed as a player.

Also, couldn't Jiggs edgeguard Ness from behind with stagespiking or something?

I don't have anything right now, since the main location I play at (Nebulous in NYC), recently moved to a new venue and hasn't gotten internet up yet. But you really just need to think about it. Bair has a good amount of cool down, and her ability to weave away with it saves her from a lot of follow ups, but some characters can still punish it.

And I'm sure she could sweep in behind and stage spike, but that can be teched, so it's not an incredibly reliable option.

 

[Akhenderson]

Jiggs V Ness is like a Jiggly ditto except one character is harder to kill with worse recovery while the other is easier to kill but has better recovery.