Tier List Speculation

[Hylian]

Yes, IC's are already fixed in dev build.

 

[Strong Badam]

dang wario sucks apparently

 

[PlateProp]

Yes, IC's are already fixed in dev build.

Can you ask cmart if he fixed the withdraw bug yet based Hylian

 

[jtm94]

Saying Lunchables doesn't have prof... I'll just lol. He only has the rest of Texas and he doesn't even make it out to tournaments that often to my knowledge because of school johns.(john part is a joke, people take no johns serious)

Mewtwo isn't bad at all and I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks Link isn't good.

Are Pit and Lucas really that bad? I know of all the changes they suffered, but so far at least Lucas seems like he has light left. To be honest I don't know of anyone else that had success with Pit bar Armada/Zero. Diddy was good and tons of people picked him up, but I saw very few people use Pit at moderate levels and saw tons of weak Pit at mediocre levels trying to mimic Armada's success at Apex.

 

[Jolteon]

Saying Lunchables doesn't have prof... I'll just lol. He only has the rest of Texas and he doesn't even make it out to tournaments that often to my knowledge because of school johns.(john part is a joke, people take no johns serious)

Mewtwo isn't bad at all and I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks Link isn't good.

Are Pit and Lucas really that bad? I know of all the changes they suffered, but so far at least Lucas seems like he has light left. To be honest I don't know of anyone else that had success with Pit bar Armada/Zero. Diddy was good and tons of people picked him up, but I saw very few people use Pit at moderate levels and saw tons of weak Pit at mediocre levels trying to mimic Armada's success at Apex.

I've been to two 3.5 tournaments since it was released, lol, one of which I won. He's matched that attendance in a week.

And yeah, Prof is better than they are. <_<;

 

[Boiko]

Apologizes for the hardcore tl;dr of my above post. Does anyone have thoughts on how I interpreted the data? I'm very, very iffy on my (admittedly rough) tier list.

Ratio of usage to win rate =/= Tier list position.
Like, three people use Samus, for example. They're good, but not S tier, can upset M2K good, yet we seem to universally agree here that Samus is top 10.

 

[ConeZ]

Yes, IC's are already fixed in dev build.

So that brings us to the obvious next question...
Does the dev team care for the plight of Olimar?

 

[howbadisbad]

So why are the two most horrible characters to play against in brawl both horribly broken in 3.5?

Coincidence?

I think not.

 

[GabPR]

Saying Lunchables doesn't have prof... I'll just lol. He only has the rest of Texas and he doesn't even make it out to tournaments that often to my knowledge because of school johns.(john part is a joke, people take no johns serious)

Mewtwo isn't bad at all and I'm glad that I'm not the only one that thinks Link isn't good.

Are Pit and Lucas really that bad? I know of all the changes they suffered, but so far at least Lucas seems like he has light left. To be honest I don't know of anyone else that had success with Pit bar Armada/Zero. Diddy was good and tons of people picked him up, but I saw very few people use Pit at moderate levels and saw tons of weak Pit at mediocre levels trying to mimic Armada's success at Apex.

THIS. Imo Pit suffers from Squirtle syndrome, and that is that most of the players that main him are either not really skilled or play him like 3.0 and don't care to experiment with his new stuff. In reality I have only tinkered with pit and he feels pretty good, but I dont really have enough experience to judge his streanght when compared against the cast. Sadly though, people like to use the misleading term *bad* way too loosely, when they either haven't touched the characters to tinker with their new kits much or don't use them at all. If anything, like @ mimgrim said, 3.0 goggles are still adjusted way too tight around the eyes of the community.

 

[Binary Clone]

The point is that the data isn't reliable because it ignores a lot of important factors which thus makes it kind of bad, but I mean... that doesn't necessarily make your list worse than other tier lists at this point as it is all speculation.

But yeah, I think you have several characters too low and several too high. Making a good tier list this early is hard because many matchups are mostly unexplored and a lot of characters are vastly underused.
That said, I have my own opinion of what the tier list would look like if we had to have one right now.

(I just really wanted to post my opinion on the matter since there have been a few over the past few days)
(Also within tiers placement is not ordered)
S tier:
A+ tier:
A tier:
B+ tier:
B tier:
B- tier:
C tier:
Bad:

I also wanted to use this to ask why a lot of people are so high on Wolf?
I understand he is good, and he is a spacie and all, but he doesn't feel as good as Fox, Roy, or Shiek imo. Seems like a lot of people think he is top tier just because he is a spacie, and I generally don't see why.

Edit: also, is ICs really getting fixed? My friend finally showed me how sad they are in this game atm, and it made me cringe (Nana just kinda suicided after I shoulder bashed her off stage, and it was pretty sad).

Sonic is NOT on the same level as Yoshi and Toon Link, and Ganondorf is definitely not on the same level as Lucario/Ike. I think you're overestimating Ganon's placement relative to a lot of characters, and underestimating Tink+Yoshi/overestimating Sonic.

People are high on Wolf because he's good, and relatively untapped. He has a ton of potential that nobody has really gotten everything out of yet, or close to everything.

 

[Foo]

Are Pit and Lucas really that bad? I know of all the changes they suffered, but so far at least Lucas seems like he has light left. To be honest I don't know of anyone else that had success with Pit bar Armada/Zero. Diddy was good and tons of people picked him up, but I saw very few people use Pit at moderate levels and saw tons of weak Pit at mediocre levels trying to mimic Armada's success at Apex.

I don't think lucas is that bad. I've played him a bit in 3.5 and he still feels really really solid. His shffl aerials are just sooooo ****ing good and his mobility is still crazy. He has marth speed (almost) with luigi wavedash (almost) and crazy b reverse shennagins. Not sure how good his recovery is though, since I haven't played anyone (with lucas) who knows how to edgeguard well.

Haven't played against anyone good in general, but I did as well against bad players with lucas as I did with any of my mains. If a Lucas player disagrees, though, I'd probably have to yield to their experience since all I did was basically spam nair, fair and dair, abuse his mobility and then connect dair to upsmash into win game. Pit, on the other hand, does seem fairly mediocre.

 

[Leafeon]

I went from playing a character in melee that everyone considered low tier, got a backair that kills added and a buffed neutral B, nair, and overall buffed tipper hits, and suddenly am S tier.
I'm okay with this.

Edit: Oh yeah and side B.

 

[Keman]

For the people that didn't catch it last night and maybe wanted to watch it (salt mines episode 6) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC-HEI0-y-o where Lunchables/NZA/Junebug/others talk about Lunchables tier list and go over who, where, and why. (also talk about Pits viability and other things)

Also one thing I want to add pertaining to tier lists is that I like how Lunchables has as few tiers as possible. I can see where it would be easier to place people when you have lots of tiers like some people do, but I personally like how lunchables did it because it helps to iterate the notion that these characters are not far off in viability.

I wouldn't even give the lower tiers a negative name such as "Low" because people would equate that to being bad (not counting broken tier) but that's just me

 

[Leafeon]

I wouldn't even give the lower tiers a negative name such as "Low" because people would equate that to being bad (not counting broken tier) but that's just me

You could just use smogon tier names

"UU tier - Puff"

 

[Keman]

"QQ tier - Puff"

FTFY

 

[Ningildo]

But smogon tiers are based on usage...and would still have Oli at the bottom (PU) T_T.

Does anyone have a character that goes even/beats spacies, marth and sheik? I hate these characters as Oli and need a cp character.

 

[Leafeon]

But smogon tiers are based on usage...and would still have Oli at the bottom (PU) T_T.

Does anyone have a character that goes even/beats spacies, marth and sheik? I hate these characters as Oli and need a cp character.

Let's see....

Spacies... I think Roy wins, or is even... marth I think is even... shiek idk?

 

[Keman]

as Oli I just assumed you would hate everyone, but I hear Fox is good against top tiers. Seriously though I would say Ike he just swings his sword and hits everything. Better enjoy him before he is nerfed >.>

 

[mimgrim]

I'm pretty sure the only 1st place wins toonlink has ever gotten in 3.5 are from me, cmon tink mains

pls add results

I'm trying goddammit ;-;

But I have horrible consistency problems (one match I'll be doing pretty good in relation to the players in my area and then the next I'm playing absoluitely horrible and it can happen in the middle of a game or in-between them.) and I seem to have some kind of mental block in tournament matches where I play worse then I would in friendlies but I don't get why since I don't let myself feel pressured about it being something special or anything. Trying to work on both but it isn't easy. Short version is, I suck.

 

[didds]

sounds like just about every intermediate player ever

 

[mimgrim]

sounds like just about every intermediate player ever

I'm probably worse then that.

 

[Keman]

Wouldn't people naturally do better in friendlies because your opponent isn't in try hard mode?

 

[Frost | Odds]

[Falcon stuff]

Thanks for the info and clarification!

I think the difficulty of Falcon vs Falco in Melee is overblown to begin with (having played it from both sides), and I think you're underestimating the cumulative effect of Falcon's buffs and Falco's nerfs for the matchup.

Regardless, we seem to be in agreement that he goes roughly even with pretty much every top tier character - and seriously, how many characters can boast that, as well as practically invalidating a bunch of other characters, like Tink, ZSS, Peach, and Link?

Regarding some of these:

Mewtwo, Diddy, Wolf, and G^W

I [respectfully] think you're probably a bit off base. Wolf is probably about even - or at least close enough that it doesn't really matter. As for Diddy, his projectiles and command grab are tailored to combat characters significantly less mobile than Falcon - and he has a hell of a time actually finishing off kills, while Falcon certainly doesn't share the same problem. I'd certainly buy that Diddy has a slight advantage in neutral game, but Falcon shouldn't require nearly as many conversions to take stocks. IMO this matchup should favor Falcon.

Mewtwo is a tossup, sure. He's comparably underdeveloped to Yoshi, so I'm pretty uncomfortable even having an opinion on this matchup. It's extremely volatile, to say the least.

Would this list be generally less controversial? Still ordered; left = better

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:(f)
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:

 

[Warzenschwein]

I'm always doing better in serious matches than in friendlies.

When playing friendlies I can freely autopilot and couldn't care less about the result.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Let's see....

Spacies... I think Roy wins, or is even... marth I think is even... shiek idk?

Roy doesnt beat any of the spacies
If hes even with any of them
Its wolf. I dont really see it doe

 

[Leafeon]

Roy doesnt beat any of the spacies
If hes even with any of them
Its wolf. I dont really see it doe

I disagree.

 

[941]

Does anyone have a character that goes even/beats spacies, marth and sheik? I hate these characters as Oli and need a cp character.

G&W does pretty well against spacies.

 

[Binary Clone]

I second that disagreement. I personally suck at the spacie MUs, but Roy is at the very least very close to even in those MUs.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Quick example of the kind of stuff yoshi players just don't really do (probably partially because it's much harder with a standard control setup):

The inputs on my controller:
right
jump
left
jump (by hitting R)
up+left on C stick (within a few frames of jumping)
L-cancel

The inputs on a standard controller:
right
jump
left
jump (with x or y - up doesn't work because the stick needs to be to one side to get the DJC sideways boost)
return stick to neutral then A within (3? I think) frames of jumping
L cancel
- Note that you still won't get as much momentum with this setup because you have to return the stick to neutral for at least a couple frames.

DJC characters are hard to play properly because they've got so many possible options with relatively difficult, precise (and similar) inputs. It'll be a long time before any of them are played anywhere near their potential.

 

[Leafeon]

Quick example of the kind of stuff yoshi players just don't really do (probably partially because it's near impossible with a standard control setup:

The inputs on my controller:
jump
left
jump (by hitting R)
up+left on C stick (within a few frames of jumping)
L-cancel

DJC characters are hard to play properly because they've got so many possible options with relatively difficult, precise (and similar) inputs. It'll be a long time before any of them are played anywhere near their potential.

Also wasn't I supposed to call you out on procrastinating on.... something? You said so in like your third to last post last night and then posted again 10 minutes later.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I posted again 9 hours later, but eh; you're probably right.

Final note for a while: Yoshi should also have god tier platform camping due to his perfect wavelands (try DJ canceled into horizontal waveland right above the platform), as well as his ability to 'dive bomb' people below him with DJ -> rising aerials

Edit: this stuff also factors into why I have Lucas ranked fairly high. I feel like I'm underrating Ness, but frankly, I have trouble visualizing exactly how his kit works with this stuff. Maybe 20NessNess is a thing too

 

[jtm94]

@ Frost | Odds I like th elist, but really ROB and Yoshi? Hmm... The more and more I play my buddy who just started using ROB over his other character he put a year into I start thinking ROB may actually be that good... When I play against Yoshi he just feels annoying really, it's tough to say. I think GnW might beat him though so #Bias. As Sheik Yoshi feels unnecessarily hard because I can't just fair the dinosaur to edgeguard him..

About Roy doing bad against spacies... How does a better Marth not do the same thing... better? I would still probably put Roy at losing against Fox, unsure about Falco.

Sheik loses to spacies that's a given. That's why she has fallen on the melee tier list because in that meta she can't do as much to them as characters like Puff, Marth, and Peach can. I've also heard that Sheik loses to Jiggs and ICs in Melee as well. I'm also becoming slightly biased and I would say factoring in optimal Marth play Sheik loses to Marth, but no one plays like that in PM yet.

@ 941 GnW can combo spacies very well, but his dash dancing isn't nearly on par with the DDing of Marth making it so much harder to get in when you're outsped(Fox). I think GnW defacto beats Falco because 3 lasers = OHKO and you can go into the OHKO off of upthrow without moving. That MU is definitely kind of silly.

 

[Boiko]

But that tech isn't extraordinarily useful. I have a lot of Yoshi experience and I cannot see that character being on the same level as Roy, Fox, Wolf, or even half of A tier. Yoshi has a lot of problems still. He has tools but not S tier tools.

 

[Scatz]

DJC characters are hard to play properly because they've got so many possible options with relatively difficult, precise (and similar) inputs. It'll be a long time before any of them are played anywhere near their potential.

Just jumping in to say that it's not going to take that long of a time as imagined lol. A handful of Yoshis know how to DJC efficiently, but they never travel outside their region. DJC suffers from needing extreme preciseness and (for Yoshi's case) specific situations to boast the effectiveness of using DJC. In neutral, it's not as strong unless we're able to tank moves, or someone is just a stupid aggressive player).

The problem for Yoshi is that he can't use one of those things. He needs all of it to maintain effectiveness against opponents. Then, having slight issues in neutral is still a hamper in his game, but it is admittedly much better than any smash game has to offer.

 

[Player -0]

Ness is hurt a lot by his slow DJ. Peach syndrome hype.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

2. Dorf is also totally undeveloped right now. Nobody's really figured out how to optimally capitalize on all his new options yet.

I don't like that type of reasoning. It's basically saying that we don't know how good he is therefore he can't be that bad. I think proper reasoning should include how the new tools help him in concrete, because situations like these are those where theorycrafting is needed the most.

I won't try to hand the burden of proof to you but talk a bit about why I think Ganon is still not that good (edit: low tier was a bit too much he isn't that bad)
The neutral-B as recovery tool is a nice tool to make edgeguards harder, but hitting Ganon away again and again can still work. Ganon has no quick aerial to cover a lot of frontal space which would be the addition to make the neutral-B more helpful. Using air dodge out of it or DJ or up-B can sometimes be helpful but all of these options have great endlag and the neutral-B doesn't have the horizontal speed (in contrast to an illusion or phantasm) to make it a mindgame. Right now it is making it easier for the edgeguarder to mess up, but not easier for the Ganon to recover if the edgeguarder doesn't. I agree that it could save him some stocks, but his recovery is still sub-par and it is not changing enough to justify a tier list change.
The neutral-B as reflector doesn't help too much either, it is like using the spacie reflector, you would have wanted to powershield it eitherway and now you give your opponent some frames to work with and to get an positional advantage.
Neutral-B as combo extender and to float over certain projectiles is legit in my opinion, but that alone won't free him from his low tier prison. I'd argue here with the amount of all game situations and the reasons you would normally find why Ganon gets hit. His buffs address some of the weaknesses, but his set of weaknesses is so big that the buffs only cover a small part. If you look at a good Melee Ganon lose a match due to a bad matchup, and count where in PM he could have escaped from a situation, he would probably be still down when you take the damage dealt in those situations away.

 

[Boiko]

Ness is hurt a lot by his slow DJ. Peach syndrome hype.

;(
Top platform campers, nooo.

 

[Strong Badam]

Roy doesnt beat any of the spacies
If hes even with any of them
Its wolf. I dont really see it doe

I think Roy actually might beat Fox 55-45 in a bo3/bo5 set and probably does better vs the other two.

G&W does pretty well against spacies.

He does fine vs Falco and Wolf, but gets decimated by Fox. It's awful lol

 

[didds]

I feel the combination of having few horizontal disjoints and not being lightning-fast could at least stop him from entering top 5. I agree about generally placing Yoshi high (especially at 20XX when he is the only one who can powershield grabs)

I'm reposting this quote because in my opinion it really sums up Yoshi's greatest weakness the best. It's not his recovery like people like to point out, it's that he can't reach far with horizontal disjoints, and you can't alleviate this with constant smash attack use. He has movement tricks, but nothing that is an "anytime burst" like a fox dash.

He's just always going to have trouble with a strong wall out game. It's one of the reasons I still see a platform camping fox as one of his hardest match ups.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

But that tech isn't extraordinarily useful. I have a lot of Yoshi experience and I cannot see that character being on the same level as Roy, Fox, Wolf, or even half of A tier. Yoshi has a lot of problems still. He has tools but not S tier tools.

As in, just standing there and retreating DJC nair? Sure, not too useful. The thing is you can also do an advancing DJC and whiff punish from huge ranges, on top of still having the retreating option, and you can do either in any direction, at any time during a dash, run, or SH. You've even got the DJ armor for aerial parries.
Nair is very strong on shields as well, considering the frame advantage (I forget if the max is +1 or 0), the ability to parry grabs OoS, and retreating DJC to space out OoS options.
I'm also pretty sure Yoshi can crank out DJCs a lot faster than in the example video.
At any rate, just because people know how to do this kind of thing doesn't mean they know how to use it just yet. It has weaknesses, but a lot of strengths go overlooked as well.

The neutral-B as recovery tool is a nice tool to make edgeguards harder, but hitting Ganon away again and again can still work. Ganon has no quick aerial to cover a lot of frontal space which would be the addition to make the neutral-B more helpful.

Uair, maybe?

Not really related to its recovery prowess, but hover does sort of feel a little underwhelming to me. Onstage it doesn't get too much done, since all your opponent really ends up doing is waiting it out, so long as they keep their cool and realize that when they're cornered Ganon still can't do that much to them.
It seems best used to extend Ganon's already threatening jump arc, for B-reverse/turnarounds, or for getting to far platforms, which are all very good uses. It's more like a stall, with good potential as a subtle movement option with a rather poor reflector (which is actually just a jab reset) attached.
It's definitely an improvement, but it just seems a little odd to have an entire move "slot" specifically for that purpose, on Ganon of all characters. Makes me wish it were some other move with the same aerial stall attached to it, maybe a cancellable charge move (not necessarily storable) so people didn't feel so inclined to just sit there and wait for Ganon to resume the fight ogle while he strikes a badass pose.