Tier List Speculation

[PootisKonga]

*changes cstick to attack*

Hope you don't miss your instant fsmashes on the ground

C stick forward is now Ftilt and C stick back is jab

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wario's bite tho

That's the other top contender, yeah. That said, Wario can't bite from halfway across the stage as an enormously disjointed landing mixup - nor can he B-reverse it - and IMO Wario just isn't nearly as good of a character in most other ways.

EDIT: I should note that I am not salty about Yoshi. There's no local ones that are really a threat to me or anything - my stance on him is purely from theorycraft and what i've been able to find in the lab, and from watching Amsa and Vectorman in Melee.

 

[~Dad~]

That's the other top contender, yeah. That said, Wario can't bite from halfway across the stage as an enormously disjointed landing mixup - nor can he B-reverse it - and IMO Wario just isn't nearly as good of a character in most other ways.

I think the followups from bite alone make it a better command grab

 

[PootisKonga]

Tbh I have no idea how to follow up on Yoshi's Egg Lay. Am I supposed to capitalize on their forced hop upwards upon breaking out of the egg? Because all I do right now is get free percent with Dair (always punished lol) or spaced Ftilts

 

[Lizalfos]

If Roy can B-reverse insta kill puff. I bet Falco can weight spike Yoshi into oblivion still.

We top tier again.

While I think Falco isn't the best character, he probably is still top 5.

Lasers and D-air still do the same things, it is just a bit harder now.

 

[Binary Clone]

Tbh I have no idea how to follow up on Yoshi's Egg Lay. Am I supposed to capitalize on their forced hop upwards upon breaking out of the egg? Because all I do right now is get free percent with Dair (always punished lol) or spaced Ftilts

Yeah, I think it's kind of being overrated a little bit - it's still awesome, but there really aren't any followups, since your opponent is intangible as they pop out IIRC. But you do get a lot of free percent while they're in the egg.

 

[Boiko]

@ Frost | Odds Sheik loses to Jiggs in melee.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Frost | Odds Sheik loses to Jiggs in melee.

Debatable - it's certainly close. Either way, I'd agree that impatient Sheik loses to Jiggs.

 

[Warhawk]

4. Specials. I'm not as sure about this, but Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick both feel much better in general, though I'm not sure how. Could someone clarify? Am I just imagining this? If RB is better, it's a pretty big deal in the spacie matchups. B-reverse also lets him (like ganon) always Falcon Kick to recover, even when facing the wrong way; as well as RBing backwards out of a full run; or FKing backwards from a run -> crouch

Falcon kick and aerial raptor boost are definitely better in PM than melee and open up some interesting options. Grounded raptor boost in PM annoys me though, as in melee there were some weird hurtbox distortions you could get from raptor boost that I really enjoyed for situational uses in melee that I can't get to work in Project M. Stupid complaints aside however, I think 3.5 Falcon is really good and has a good matchup spread against most of the cast.

 

[Akhenderson]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

So what makes Ness lower mid? I would classify him mainly as an upper mid character.

 

[DMG]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe Falcon was buffed pretty dramatically in a few areas:
1. Ease of use - don't knock it, the ability to much more consistently make use of a character's entire kit in tournament is a huge deal (take the improved Gentleman, for example)

Improved Gentleman is nice, but it's not a huge deal. A bigger buff IMO are dashing mechanics: I think it's easier to DD in PM. I can't recall what it was in Melee, but it's either the threshold to turn walking into running or the acceleration you need on stick speed was set higher? I dunno, but it makes playing Falcon on point much easier. In areas like that, I agree it feels better or matters.

2. In relation to the meta - the Melee top tiers to which he loses in Melee have been nerfed across the board, making him a lot more stable particularly in the Falco and Sheik matchups

Falco and Sheik are easier, but they are still troublesome MU's. Sheik might realistically be even, the changes to her and the buffs he got certainly push the MU into manageable territory and almost entirely skill based.

On the other hand, Melee did not have buffed Melee characters like Mario, Link, and Roy. Nor did it have semi-challenging Brawl character MU's like Wolf, Diddy, Lucario, etc. He has some easier and some harder MU's in this patch: the relative position of other characters from Melee might not matter as much if Brawl characters supplement or fight for those spots as well. Without decently strong Brawl characters, I'd agree that he's just strictly better than Melee

3. Recovery - yeah. Pretty important in every matchup. upB's extra distance and the Raptor Boost's new utility makes him much harder to edgeguard consistently

It's not that much harder to edgeguard Falcon, at least for assertive edgeguarding. I have made it back with his buffed tools, in ways that were probably preventable with more knowledge or aggressiveness. Choosing an onstage Smash for example? You might as well give me the edge for free, happens way too often. Maybe that's pessimistic bias, where I just assume a person would know better or pick a slightly better option for many of the situations I safely get back from. Challenging Falcon offstage is still a thing, he doesn't usually have the leniency to protect himself and early recovery mixups are usually reserved for Upb if he's a bit further out (which would give you scenarios similar to what Melee had already for edgeguarding him). Side B is a legit new mixup, but it's overrated a tad. Edgeguards involving the edge are absolutely detrimental to surviving with Side B, and cover many options when you break down the edgeguard scenario and practice it hundreds of times.

4. Specials. I'm not as sure about this, but Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick both feel much better in general, though I'm not sure how. Could someone clarify? Am I just imagining this? If RB is better, it's a pretty big deal in the spacie matchups. B-reverse also lets him (like ganon) always Falcon Kick to recover, even when facing the wrong way; as well as RBing backwards out of a full run; or FKing backwards from a run -> crouch

Raptor Boost is probably mostly the same onstage. I don't notice much different about it, not even sure if it's programmed to dodge certain projectiles like the Melee one could. I'd consider it mostly the same as Melee, especially now that shield pushback and shield DI are better.

Falcon Kick is better than Melee, but it's not a free pass kind of move. It's kind of a forgettable CF move since you can be entirely successful without using it a single time in a set. I don't think about it too much, but it has some uses that would not be as good in Melee.


5. The nair - is the nair better? Am I imagining this one too?

Not sure how you came to this haha, most Falcon's have been complaining about Nair for multiple reasons across the patches. Either visually looks weird, non-tumble hitstun and stage collision detection throwing off low % combo opportunities, etc. Even if it's placebo effect, most PM Falcon's feel his Nair is worse than Melee. I wouldn't be surprised after some of the general bug fixes to movement and landing, that the move actually happens somehow to be 1:1 with Melee, but yeah the opinion has never been that it's better in PM. Against the main cast, it's probably actually worse because more characters can crawl, a lot of shorter characters added, or the weight increase average makes the average cast member better at CCing Nair.

6. Falcon gatekeeps the hell out of a lot of new blood in PM, with floaty characters being the norm, all of which (even ridiculously strong ones, like ROB) tend to lose to Uair+Knee, The Character

He does put in work, but I don't consider him to necessarily be a gatekeeper. A lot of those floaty characters, or light + FF status like MK Diddy Lucas etc, have other combo worries and MU issues against characters like say Mario or Roy (Light + FF for Roy, floaties don't seem too fun). There aren't many characters, buffed or newly introduced, where the initial impression is that they should not win a tourney if specifically a decent Falcon comes out. I can definitely say that about Toon Link, Fox, Falco, Wolf, and even some oddballs like ZSS. Falcon can sometimes manage to be like a top 3 worst MU for a character, but I don't think he stops many people from being super viable just on his own merits. That doesn't apply to many characters to begin with, but a title like that belongs to a terror like Melee Sheik where you legit loathe anyone decent playing the character and it's hard to lose the MU in her hands.


You could be right. I imagine that Fox is maybe favored 55-45 against Falcon, Marth and Roy lose 55-45 or 60-40, Falco beats him 55-45. ROB loses 60-40, Yoshi probably loses as well 55-45 or 60-40
If I'm right about that stuff, that's a hell of a matchup spread against the top tiers; and it only gets better for Falcon as you move down the tier list.

Fox is 5 or 10 points his favor, Marth probably loses but Roy is a different beast in this game. That MU is strictly better for Roy, I wouldn't be surprised if Falcon just manged even or lost by 5 points tbh. On paper it should be amazing for Falcon, but in practice it's brutal on both sides of the MU. I slay Sethlon's stock in a friendly, and next turn I get absolutely noodle-doodled (get it, Roy sword pun har har). Falco is probably closer to 4:6. Yoshi might just be 5 points, I dunno. Not a MU I frequent often, Hamlin certainly puts fear into people with Yoshi (his Yoshi scares me more than Sheik atm, but his Sheik is getting better as well)

That's an OK MU spread but that doesn't address other fairly hard MU's. Mewtwo, Diddy, Wolf, and G^W are not a cake walk. Heck even D3 MU is not a free handout by any means. Some of those might not even be considered top tier or the upper parts of high tier, and they can legit contest him. He has more evenish battles and struggles, if not more slightly disadvantaged MU's that the likely Top 5 IMO.

Replies in Red

You're partially right about Falcon, but I think you're overestimating how well he does against the cast in PM. He has new threats to deal with (including recently nerfed ones that are still relevant) and while he's a strong character, I'm not sure he deals with everyone in a way that deserves Top 5. He could very well be more viable in PM than Melee, and still be in the same tier placing or even lower than Melee

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm starting to think that C Stick Attack is also mandatory for DJC characters so that you can properly do advancing or retreating DJC nair.

oh

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh. Dammit I'm slow, I've been practicing hover/DJC tricks and this is so much easier.

Third stick so I can b-stick when, Mewtwo is complicated.

 

[Lizalfos]

When did Pika become one of the worst characters?

He is really solid in so many ways.

 

[DMG]

I just Knee whenever I see Pikachu onscreen, seems to work. UTDZac felt my rage last time, switched to Charizard like a punk!

 

[~Dad~]

I just Knee whenever I see Pikachu onscreen, seems to work. UTDZac felt my rage last time, switched to Charizard like a punk!

You're my favorite person on smashboards

 

[Lizalfos]

Can't pika duck under Falcon's grab.
He has a projectile too, the matchup can't be that bad.

 

[jtm94]

Shoutouts to Salt Mines. Opened my eyes to the salt.
Lunchables speaks the truth.

The MU isn't that bad, Pikachu is that bad.

 

[DMG]

Can't pika duck under Falcon's grab.
He has a projectile too, the matchup can't be that bad.

SOMEWHERE IN 3.5 PATCH NOTES

"Falcon blah blah HE CAN GRAB LOW PROFILE CHARACTERS NERDS HEATHENS SUPER NERDS NOW!"

Falcon gets all up in that bizness yo.

It's not a terrible MU for Pika or anything, but if I knee his baby rat face then I feel good and that's all that matters.

 

[Lizalfos]

SOMEWHERE IN 3.5 PATCH NOTES

"Falcon blah blah HE CAN GRAB LOW PROFILE CHARACTERS NERDS HEATHENS SUPER NERDS NOW!"

Falcon gets all up in that bizness yo.

It's not a terrible MU for Pika or anything, but if I knee his baby rat face then I feel good and that's all that matters.

Oh, similar to how I just CC shine Falcon's Nair. I know that feeling.

I wonder, if Spacies weren't in Melee, would Falcon be top tier?

 

[DMG]

Sheik would be played a god damn lot. Probably not great for his viability

 

[Deleted member]

Shoutouts to Salt Mines. Opened my eyes to the salt.
Lunchables speaks the truth.

The MU isn't that bad, Pikachu is that bad.

I did kind of get a kick out of the fact that my tier list was the one we used

 

[Gard]

(Apologies if there is a better way to insert tables, I don't know it. Please forgive me.)
So, university is snowed in for today and I wanted to work on something. This was the result. I have a bit of statistics knowledge, so I wanted to create something.

IMPORTANT NOTES
For the column on who took first, Pit and below have not won any tournaments. Their score is zero.
Also, for the bottom eight in terms of usage, the data is admittedly bad. They've been used less than forty times, which is a terrible sample size, and therefore any conclusions on them aren't very significant.
The data starts from November 30, 2014, hopefully enough time for everyone to get to know 3.5.

Now, the point of this was, if a character is used, all things being equal, they should win at the same rank that they are used. This is, of course, assuming that all characters are fair and balanced. All characters aren't, so when a character is winning or losing at a different rate than they are being used, something is off, if that makes sense.

Alright, analysis, and slight tier list.

Fox - Not much to say here. He's right where he ought to be, statistically. Is he good? Who knows, but almost certainly. A lack of bad matchups is far more valuable than a few good ones, and as usual, Fox is excellent.

Marth - Same deal. While Sheik-esque characters still give him some trouble, even in PM there aren't many of those.

Ganon - Now this is interesting. Third in usage, but sixth in wins on both columns? I'd say Ganon just likely struggles vs. common high tier characters. He has the tools to beat much of the cast, but his game vs. spacies or Marth or Sheik doesn't seem to be good enough to secure as many wins as he ought to have.

Cpt. Falcon - Just about where he ought to be, little to say. However, again, I'm doubtful he has the tools to get even matchups with other high tiers.

Sheik - Again, about where she ought to be. Shiek's matchups are solid, and while she shows a slight dip in first place results, I'd attribute that to the high fundamental skill required to have a good Sheik and the matchup knowledge needed. I could be wrong though! Such fun.

Falco - Slightly underused, he wins quite a lot. But I think everyone recognizes him as a solid character.

Luigi - Weegee... has some issues. He drops a lot, especially for third place and above wins, but still a significant amount for first. Not as good as his usage, probly needs a little buff love on the next patch.

Mario - Solid. Performs exactly as expected, or close to it. He has no really unwinnable matchups, which is a huge help.

Ness - Well, shoot. I hate to say this, Ness fans, but he performs way under what's expected. While usage is high, his wins are strictly middle of the road, indicating that he's not really good enough to compete with all other characters. He's likely still fine - but he has some bad matchups that he loses semi consistently.

Roy - Given Sethlon, I expected him to be higher. So uh, I don't know. But he drops a ton of games, and his win rate is honestly bad given usage. Same boat as Ness - he just can't have a solid chance against everyone.

Ike - A bit higher than he should be on wins. Likely significant, though I doubt he's much better than people think.

Link - Ouch. While Link is fine on third place finishes, his terrible matches against rushdown characters really hurt, and he drops a fair ways on the win rates.

Zelda - Geez. Another former main getting trashed. She really loses hard to enough members of the cast that she really just can't compete.

Donkey K - Three poor placements in a row. First Link, who was bad, Zelda, who's really bad, and Donkey Kong, who's abysmal. His first place wins are nearly zip, though third place and up is fine. But the total lack of wins is a terrible sign, and he likely just flat out gets demolished by common first place finishers.

Game&Watch - A bit worse, but not a ton. He's okay, but just not great.

Wolf - Somewhat underrated. I mean, likely he's the worst of the spacies, but he has placement higher than his rank would indicate which means he's likely pretty good.

Peach - We have our first seriously underrated character! Peach climbs near the top of the list in first and third place finishes, indicating a huge potential that um... nobody is really doing much with.

Wario - Ow. Ow. Ow. Drops so, so hard. He's way underpowered.

Lucario - Some much higher first place finishes, indicating a high skill ceiling. I think he has enough bad matchups to not be truly top tier, but the potential to do well is very solidly there.

Samus - A bit worse than she ought to do. Likely not really all that great.

Diddy K - Whooooooa. He jumps a ton. Very, very underplayed, this character continues to have great potential.

Squirtle - A serious drop in first place finishes. He has some outright terrible matchups (Marth, woohoo!) that he likely can't win often enough to get first.

Mewtwo - 3.5 was not good to our dear god tier pokemon. He's near rock bottom for just everything.

Ivysaur - Lots of firsts. Which is cool, it means that dedicated Ivy mains are taking her pretty far. Though, still not a crazy jump like Peach or Diddy, which indicates potential difficulties against some characters.

Charizard - About as expected. The data's a bit wonky around here, so it could be variance, but he does have slightly higher first places.

Meta Knight - No longer godly, the patch hit him a bit too hard, with his first places suffering some.

Kirby - A huge jump in first place finishes. Though that could be entirely Chu (mostly kidding.) Though seriously, he seems somewhat Sheik-esque in that strong fundamentals make him an excellent character.

Zero Suit - What the hell, Samus. What the hell. This is a huge leap, with Zero Suit consistently finishing freakishly well. She's really good, you guys. Really, scary good.

Bowser - Meh. With skill he's fine.

Snake - Another way underplayed character. I think everyone knows he's good due to Rolex and Professor Pro, but seriously, he's good.

Sonic - Another solid character. Shoutout to Wizzy, but Sonic has pretty commonly been a good character.
Yoshi - Starts low, ends terrible. Yoshi is reasonably underpowered.

Lucas - ...That patch though.

Jiggs - Underrated, though could be due to Melee skill imports.

Dedede - He's fine.

Toon Link - Some really high first place wins. Probably somewhat underrated.

ROB - Same as Tink, a bit higher than his usage indicates.

Pikachu - Bad. Poor Pika.

Ice Climbers - Zero wins.

Pit - Oh how the mighty have fallen. Poor 3.5 Pit. Maybe Armada and Zero will prove the data wrong.

Olimar - A bit high, though hard to tell down here, there's a lot of variance.

So, finally, if I had to do a tier list, it would go something like this:

Upper Top:
Fox, Marth, Sheik, Falco, Peach,
Middle Top:
Ganon, Cpt. Falcon, Mario, Wolf, Diddy Kong,
Lower Top:
Ike, Ivysaur, Zero Suit Samus, Snake,
Upper Middle:
Luigi, Lucario, Kirby, Sonic, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, R.O.B.,
Middle:
Roy, Link, Game&Watch, Charizard, Bowser, Dedede, Olimar
Lower Middle:
Ness, Zelda, Samus, Squirtle, Meta Knight,
Upper Low:
Lucas,
Low:
Wario, Pikachu,
Rock Bottom:
Donkey Kong, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers, Pit,

 

[JOE!]

Let's Replace pikmin with ice climbers, with the colors being their alt skins.

Olimar landing side b twice just wobbles the victim.

 

[Shadic]

@ Gard - I don't want to get rid of your posts by closing the thread, so I'm just going to merge your thread with the Tier List thread, since it should have gone there.

 

[Gard]

Apologizes for the hardcore tl;dr of my above post. Does anyone have thoughts on how I interpreted the data? I'm very, very iffy on my (admittedly rough) tier list.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I commend the effort, but

all things being equal

Everything goes to hell in a handcart right here. There are so many confounding variables unaccounted for, and it shows in the results.

 

[Gard]

I commend the effort, but

Everything goes to hell in a handcart right here. There are so many confounding variables unaccounted for, and it shows in the results.

By that I meant, assuming all characters had equal potential and matchup spreads. I realize there's massive sample bias - Melee players tend to play their top tier Melee mains, and the same goes for Brawl. However, especially for the upper half I think the sample is big enough to show some of the trends. Especially considering that many of the characters that were good in 3.0 were entirely new characters to the top tier of any Smash game, and/or had received significant changes. Though, is there something I'm missing? I'd like to know if there is - this is something I'm pretty invested in knowing.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure the only 1st place wins toonlink has ever gotten in 3.5 are from me, cmon tink mains

pls add results

 

[Gard]

I'm pretty sure the only 1st place wins toonlink has ever gotten in 3.5 are from me, cmon tink mains

pls add results

And Jolteon. What do you mean pls add results? I just used the Smashboards rankings filter - is there some way to see each tournament from there?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Different characters are at different stages in their meta development and have inequal representation in terms of player quality, for starters. At best your chart is an awkward confluence of current meta development and typical level of play for each character, modulated by skill level and character spread of the character's typical opponents (which will vary significantly by region and event), rather than the representation of potential that a tier list would traditionally show.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think Jolteon has won any 3.5 Tournaments as toon link.

I meant please add results as "other tink mains, please start getting results"

 

[Gard]

I don't think Jolteon has won any 3.5 Tournaments as toon link.

I meant please add results as "other tink mains, please start getting results"

Ah, in that case, pardon me.

 

[Gard]

Different characters are at different stages in their meta development and have inequal representation in terms of player quality, for starters. At best your chart is an awkward confluence of current meta development and typical level of play for each character, rather than the representation of potential that a tier list would traditionally show.

Yes - to some degree. So, for instance, I don't believe that this can or will be very accurate for, say, Brawl characters or heavily changed Melee characters. But for, say, Luigi, Donkey Kong, and characters like them who are coming in from Melee mostly the same, and other heavily played characters... yes, it's still developing, but it doesn't seem probable that anything nuts is going to happen. Of course the PMDT could just rework someone.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Still leaves player skill and opposing spread to the wind.

Seriously, that's at least four major factors (meta development, typical player skill, opposing character spread, development/skill of opponent) confounding your data. Knock off one or two and you're still left with enough confounding variables to poison your data, especially given the breadth of data involved and the interactions between your data points. Peach isn't really top 5, she just places well because there's only a handful of PM Peach players and a disproportionate number of them happen to be high level veterans. Mewtwo isn't really bottom, he's just super underdeveloped and lacks high level representation. Roy isn't mid tier, he's just incredibly popular at all levels of play. etc, etc.

 

[Jolteon]

I'm pretty sure the only 1st place wins toonlink has ever gotten in 3.5 are from me, cmon tink mains

pls add results

You have like, 2 tournaments a week... and no Prof.

Also, I actually have. Just nothing's been uploaded here.

 

[Gard]

Still leaves player skill and opposing spread to the wind.

Seriously, that's at least four major factors (meta development, typical player skill, opposing character spread, development/skill of opponent) confounding your data. Knock off one or two and you're still left with enough confounding variables to poison your data, especially given the breadth of data involved and the interactions between your data points. Peach isn't really top 5, she just places well because there's only a handful of PM Peach players and a disproportionate number of them happen to be high level veterans. Mewtwo isn't really bottom, he's just super underdeveloped and lacks high level representation. Roy isn't mid tier, he's just incredibly popular at all levels of play. etc, etc.

That's... well, some I agree with and some I think is wrong. I agree the data isn't great, but nor do I think it's terrible. Agree to disagree?

 

[Gard]

Or, y'know, we could talk in circles for the next hour.

 

[Gard]

Mewtwo isn't really bottom, he's just super underdeveloped and lacks high level representation.

And (just for laughs) Mew2King, Frozen, KoreanDJ, and Emukiller are very hurt that they aren't considered "high level representation"

 

[ConeZ]

That's... well, some I agree with and some I think is wrong. I agree the data isn't great, but nor do I think it's terrible. Agree to disagree?

The point is that the data isn't reliable because it ignores a lot of important factors which thus makes it kind of bad, but I mean... that doesn't necessarily make your list worse than other tier lists at this point as it is all speculation.

But yeah, I think you have several characters too low and several too high. Making a good tier list this early is hard because many matchups are mostly unexplored and a lot of characters are vastly underused.
That said, I have my own opinion of what the tier list would look like if we had to have one right now.

(I just really wanted to post my opinion on the matter since there have been a few over the past few days)
(Also within tiers placement is not ordered)
S tier:
A+ tier:
A tier:
B+ tier:
B tier:
B- tier:
C tier:
Bad:

I also wanted to use this to ask why a lot of people are so high on Wolf?
I understand he is good, and he is a spacie and all, but he doesn't feel as good as Fox, Roy, or Shiek imo. Seems like a lot of people think he is top tier just because he is a spacie, and I generally don't see why.

Edit: also, is ICs really getting fixed? My friend finally showed me how sad they are in this game atm, and it made me cringe (Nana just kinda suicided after I shoulder bashed her off stage, and it was pretty sad).

 

[InfinityCollision]

And (just for laughs) Mew2King, Frozen, KoreanDJ, and Emukiller are very hurt that they aren't considered "high level representation"

Mew2king has barely touched PM, let alone Mewtwo, since 3.5, and barely utilizes any of his PM tech (his Mewtwo play in 3.02 was similarly underdeveloped, moreso than other Mewtwos that had tourney success in 3.02). As far as I know KDJ hasn't played Mewtwo in some time. Emu by his own admission is weaker as a player than some of the people he was beating in 3.02, and while he and Frozen do have some skill it's worth noting that they're among a very limited pool of high level Mewtwo representation and none of them are enjoying significant success post-3.5 (as your own evidence shows). A tiny pool of high level players and arguably no "top level" players (M2K notwithstanding due to lack of usage and character development) does lend itself to claims of underrepresentation in high level play, so you'll forgive me if I don't see the problem here.

You should try and avoid double/triple posting in the future, for reference.