Tier List Speculation

[MLGF]

Thats not true, I went to one... got destoryed by phishys boozer and said **** this game again

C'mon, we both know Phish is really good and is quite frankly, the only actual Bowser player we have around here. It's not like you lost to some random or anything.
And Phish was doing that stuff since 3.0, and you were stubborn enough not to give up to the MUCH dumber **** that was in 3.0.

 

[pooch182]

Honestly, Toon Link is more like 40-60. He wins neutral, plays a faster version of a similar style to Samus, has a passive shield, better combo game, AGT recovery and dumb stuff like that. Toon Link is neat.

Samus murders Yoshi, IMO, because it's a decent MU in Melee but we have more stuff to beat him up with now.

KirkQ beats me bad, but not bad enough for me to say it's a 35-65. More like a 45-55, tbh, because we can ruin his day if he boosts at a height we can just upsmash. It's very much a Just Do It MU, and my style that isn't too missile heavy lets me do some mean stuff in the neutral.

 

[Chevy]

Have you played vs a toon link before?! Toon Links D throw was reworked to be a 50/50 between D and F throw. If you correctly DI the D throw, you don't get any followups. Even at 100+, if you incorrectly DI my D throw I can't followup due to your weight/floatyness.

Ow my feelings. Guess I'm misremembering from 3.0.

 

[pooch182]

Lunchables is bad, Chevy. He barely took a dump on me in pools at LTC2. Don't listen to him.

 

[Hylian]

Have you played vs a toon link before?! Toon Links D throw was reworked to be a 50/50 between D and F throw. If you correctly DI the D throw, you don't get any followups. Even at 100+, if you incorrectly DI my D throw I can't followup due to your weight/floatyness.

Good thing you can just up throw!

Kappa

 

[pooch182]

Speaking of Hylian, RIP ICs against Samus.

 

[Deleted member]

Good thing you can just up throw!

Kappa

Tinks U throw is really, really good vs particular characters. If you fall within a certain class (Roy, MK, Snake, etc) aka semi fast faller then U throw is auto combo for days

If you're a midweight, U throw combos but never leads to kills

If you're a floaty, U throw doesn't do **** for very long

If you're a true fast faller, then you punish me for U throwing you before like 30% lol

 

[SOJ]

ay

 

[Player -0]

Speaking of PMDT, I smell a conspiracy. I get one liners from members but don't get the full answer of what I really want to know.

 

[Boiko]

I don't think it actually has any extra range, in Melee the hitbox is stilll stupid disjointed. If it does, it's only a little bit extra.

Screw it let's make a matchup chart:

I have some stuff to add here, and a few things I disagree with. See below. I omitted those that I either agree with or have no input on.

Spoiler

55-45 : Samus can pretty easily camp Bowser, and he's one of the few characters she can actually combo. Edgeguarding is stupid easy. However, she has a terrible grab to try and exploit is biggest weakness, and one wrong DI off of Koopa Claw or dash attack is probably a lost stock.

Pretty much agree here, only thing is that wrong DI off of koopa claw isn't MU specific.

60-40 : Neutral is a breeze, edgeguarding is easier now, can combo him cause he's fat. Charizard can kill her pretty easily off of vertical combos though, and she gets edgeguarded just as bad if not worse.

Missiles give him a hard time off stage if he's forced to glide and we combo him pretty well. He has an easy time edge guarding and gets kills of the top pretty early though, really hurting Samus' livability. I can definitely see the argument for 60-40.

45-55 : Easy to combo, but you get punished every time you hit him below like 30% cause he suffers no hitstun and has insane range. He can edgeguard Samus really well, and is one of the few characters with better survivability than her.

Agreed. I can honestly see it being a bit worse, but I think an argument can be made for both 45-55 and 60-40.

60-40 : Combo-able, Samus has a good glide toss, Diddy can no longer kill. Without that stupid up-throw that killed her at like 120% last patch, this matchup is a lot easier.

Bananas don't give Samus nearly as hard of a time as other characters. She can edge guard him for (almost) free. I agree here.

50-50: Falco is still amazing and lasers will always be dumb. Crawl helps but only a little, good Falcos can shoot that low anyway. Samus should touch of death Falco if on point though.

Agreed, unless you're bad at dealing with lasers, but that's a personal problem, lolol.

45-55: I'd say this would be even or in Samus' favor with 3.0 tethers, now there's no reason not to die now if you get knocked too far off stage.

I agree and I disagree. Even without a tether in melee, Samus could make it back against Fox in a myriad of ways. She can give Fox a seriously hard time in the neutral since he can only safely approach with drill or grab, as everything else should be CC dsmash'd, and then edge guarding him is really read dependent at lower percents, but she can serious damage if not kill him. Fox is Fox, so it's hard to say anything in worse than at least neutral for him, so I think your score is accurate but mostly just because he can camp so well and force her to HAVE TO apply strong corner pressure, which is easier said than done.

60-40 : I played Just a lot before he moved, our games were always close and I believe he is a better player than me. It does seem worse in theory though.

When I said I liked this MU, the Samus boards demanded my head on a plate, lmao. Idk though! Gotta play DJ with Samus next weekend.

50-50 : Call it even because ice beam. Don't really know though.

Now that Samus can kill her at reasonably low percents and has weirdly high damage output, I think it's in her favor around 55-45.

55-45 to I don't really know: I played iPunchKidz on netplay once. I expected 0 to death combos but all I really got was a bunch of aura sphere charge hitbox cancels into whiffed moves. Maybe Samus is a weird weight for him.

I was once told that Lucario has a difficult time dealing with CC short of going for a grab. I'm in the same boat as you.

55-45 : I haven't played a good Lucas in 3.5, but I thought she beat him slightly in 3.0.

I think Lucas beat Samus pretty hard in 3.02 and now he still beats her 55-45. He can combo into a kill with a charge at like 50 percent which completely destroys her longevity. Plus he can edge guard her well. Lucas just beats floaties. This is less my input and more of GP, who was a solid Lucas main in 3.02. You can see hit set against Emukiller at Ktar X.

45-55 : Fireballs beat everything in neutral, cape makes projectile spam more dangerous, Mario gets combos on everyone, Samus included. He can edgeguard her super easily. She outranges him at least.

I was playing against StereoKiDD's Mario with Samus on Sunday and Gallo popped over and mentioned that it's one of Samus' worst match ups. I'm not sure if I agree with that really, but I definitely agree that it's bad. He can cape tether and push you too far away to up+b. Also, any hitbox should beat a fireball. I just nair through them.

40-60 : Can't deal with his range, can't get down from juggles, can't survive being off stage. There aren't really any perks to this matchup.

55-45 : Can't deal with Missiles, easy to edgeguard. He gets some ok combos on her though. Grounded d-air leads into up-air to kill at pretty much any percent.

Arguably Ness' worst MU. He can't combo her worth anything and has a hard time dealing with missiles, plus ice fair just continually smacks him off stage and ice dtilt covers his sweet spot attempts. He has to recover high and he doesn't have that much drift. Only good thing is that he can harass her well off stage.

55-45 : Ice mode makes this so much easier than Melee.

And I love it.

35-65 : Grounded side-b is terrible for her, but it can be played around. N-air kills Samus super early, burst movement is scary. Samus dislikes killing throws. It feels like the worst thing in the world to play this matchup, in theory it doesn't seem as bad. Need to learn this matchup better.

I actually think you're kind of in the right direction here. I think it's arguably her worst MU.

55-45 : Crouch cancel d-smash ruins his life, but Samus still has trouble with swords.

My neighbor plays Roy, and let me tell you you, he HATES this MU. I honestly think it could be worse at 60-40, but I'm fine with either argument.

40-60 : Still most of the problems from Melee, crawl helps a little.

According to Barbie, Sheik doesn't have guaranteed follow ups on Samus anymore (assuming it's DI dependent). Either way, I haven't played it too much at a high level to know, but I'll play with Vanz next Sunday and see how it feels.

35-65 : This feels impossible against random Toon Links, definitely need more practice in this. Better zoning, has combos on her, grabs into early kill moves.

Definitely really hard, but for different reasons. Lunchables already touched on this though.

50-50 : Not really sure on this one, need to play some good Yoshis. He can't answer missiles all that well, but Yoshi deals too much damage with a few hits, and kills vertically fairly well

I like this MU as Samus. Yoshi has a hard time getting in against Samus against missiles and charge shot, plus she can break his armor at decently low percents and doesn't have to go too far out to do it. He can kill off the top easily but can't edge guard her well due to her maneuverability off stage. I'd call it 55-45.

40-60 : Nayru's love is just plain annoying, it sucks to be punished for a move that you predict perfectly because the reflect box lasts practically the entire animation, and there are hitboxes that stretch a mile in either direction. And it land cancels, hooray. Also d-tilt leads into up-tilt that kills Samus at like 80%, other random vertical kills that negate her weight. If it weren't for Nayru's this would probably be Samus favor.

This is a really dumb MU. Don't forget that if she gets you in the air, her uair can kill at around 80%, all while dealing 22%. Baiting Nayru's and punishing it with dair>dsmash or dair>nair/fair at medium percents and then just resetting neutral is kind of the way to play it. Also, zair is kind of good here, and charge shot can punish a rogue Din's attempt. Good luck edge guarding her, cause like, you can't.

 

[Boiko]

Double post, sorry!

Edit: @ImG | PF | Softie I meant to comment on your Marth question earlier but I forgot. This is just my opinion and what I've experienced in the matches I've played against Marth. Basically, the match up wasn't as bad in melee as it may seem. Marth punished Samus very hard by getting her in the air. He could deal a lot of damage, which eventually opened up unique kill options such as up tilt. But Samus did just fine in the neutral by baiting Marth's approaches and punishing with pokes like ftilt, dtilt, and dsmash. After that, it was a matter of keeping missile pressure on until Marth was able to close the gap again. This still applies to PM, but now Samus has a few more tools. If she does pop Marth up with a dtilt, at a low percent, she can catch him with an usmash (this is all fire, btw), to tack on hefty percent and put him in the air, allowing you to set up your missile wall. Marth's aerials start quickly, but have considerable end lag (besides fair, which is pretty quick overall). If he tries to approach through missiles by using an aerial to slice them, you can punish him with an ftilt for this. It really comes down to keeping Marth out so he can't get something started on you. You can also mix in boost ball if he is approach with an aerial to put yourself into his inner, CC'able hitboxes, and dsmash. Marth has a very easy time walling Samus out, so he's more than likely going to try to cover her midrange so she can't shoot missiles (because he's too close and can punish), and she can't really approach because he'll give her the cuts. This is the pivotal part of the MU where you have to bait him to throw out that aerial and punish it and then keep similar pressure on him. As far as going for the kill goes, ice mode fair has pretty decent range, and if you can get around a fair and get one in so he's off stage, you can edge guard him relatively easily. As far as what's changed in the transition from melee to PM, it's kind of what you said, ice mode (the homing missiles are infinitely better to start, dtilt is slept on, fair and usmash are known to be good), a better roll, and overall better hit-boxes and damage output. What she lost is her tether recovery, but I don't think a character with as many options as she has off stage is as easy to edge guard as others seem to believe.

Idk! I'm tired! I hope this helps!! Also, her CC jab shield cross ups are so good for baiting dair OoS.

 

[Hylian]

Speaking of Hylian, RIP ICs against Samus.

It's not so bad with bugfix. They have some new tech in PM that helps greatly against floaties.

 

[jtm94]

ICs aren't that bad now with bug not fixed.
I like GnW vs Ice Climbers... A LOT.

 

[PlateProp]

@ PlateProp these guys are trying to say squirtle has an okay MU

How does this make you feel

They're all a bunch of ****ing liars

 

[zFrost]

sometimes i wish i were in hylians spot so i could play around with non inverse climbers

 

[Hylian]

sometimes i wish i were in hylians spot so i could play around with non inverse climbers

I would just give everyone the ICs pac if they let me lol. I've actually requested this several times :3. But yeah...professionalism and all .

And yeah, GW vs IC's is pretty hard for IC's. I have a bunch of matches against Strong Bads GW on my youtube and was starting to figure it out though.

 

[zFrost]

i just hope it's out before a tourny on the 28th lol, the sooner the better tho, ty for ur valiant efforts hyli @>@

 

[DMG]

IC's? Getting Fixed?

Not in my ****in PM no sir, they will stay janky and untouched along with the Yoshi bug fixes. PMBR plz

 

[Hylian]

IC's? Getting Fixed?

Not in my ****in PM no sir, they will stay janky and untouched along with the Yoshi bug fixes. PMBR plz

You play Falcon.

...

Shush.

 

[zFrost]

could totally just like pm me the file and i won't tell anyone *wink wink nudge nudge*

 

[DMG]

You play Falcon.

...

Shush.

No way dude, I want my character to stay good and everyone else to have sucky chars. I prayed to Satan and he gave me Ness nerfs, I'm sticking to my gameplan!

 

[Boiko]

No way dude, I want my character to stay good and everyone else to have sucky chars. I prayed to Satan and he gave me Ness nerfs, I'm sticking to my gameplan!

I take personal offense to praying for Ness nerfs.

 

[Deleted member]

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:

Characters that I don't know what to do with:
(Don't know whether Top or High)
(Don't know whether Upper or Lower mid)
(Don't know whether Upper mid or High)

Like usual, this tier list is not in order with in the tiers, they're simply grouped together.

 

[steelguttey]

can we stop putting olimar and ice climbers in tier lists they arent characters right now

 

[pooch182]

Wario is upper mid because he loses way too hard to disjoints and projectiles. MK is probably low mid right now, but he's borderline. Falco is just high tier.

Lucario definitely isn't top tier, at least IMO. It could be because of Samus' MU against him, though. Wolf is also high at best. Ganon is higher than low mid.

 

[Deleted member]

Warios lack of options vs disjoints is definitely relevant, but you also have to remember that waft gives wario the ability to hitconfirm into kills at 50%

Lucario is definitely top tier, his ASC mechanic is ridiculous and in need of being toned down. Wolf is also definitely top tier, literally his only problem is just not being fox.

Ganon still has the problem of being poor in neutral, hes the same slow character and his neutral b, while adding mixup, isn't really enough to carry the rest of him. He's pretty borderline.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

lucario is ridiculous when played at a high level.

@Lunchables your tier list seems pretty accurate.

 

[MLGF]

I dunno, MK seems to have too many solid tools for me to say he belongs anywhere lower then upper mid.

 

[pooch182]

Wario has waft, but it's based in a timer and isn't available typically more than twice per match. Being able to kill early also happens with charge shot, shadow ball, knee, etc, which are all more readily available.

Ganon has great movement on any triangle platform stage, and it's downright foolish to assume that his bad neutral B is responsible for pulling him to such a low point on the tier list. Nair auto cancels and is safe on shield, he's got a reasonable jump squat, his aerials are huge in range and KB, and he lives for a long time. His neutral is solid enough in the same sense as Wario, except that his ground speed is slower and he depends on wavelands.

I still disagree about Lucario, and I've had close sets with Double, who is often considered one of the better Lucario mains around. Loses super hard to disjoints, poor defensive game, and low range means he gets walled out easily. Sure, he can touch of death people, but so can Falcon, and Falcon has a much better neutral and his speed helps immensely.

 

[PlateProp]

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
**** Tier:
Characters that I don't know what to do with:
(Don't know whether Top or High)
(Don't know whether Upper or Lower mid)
(Don't know whether Upper mid or High)

Like usual, this tier list is not in order with in the tiers, they're simply grouped together.

ftfy

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to punch you

you're dead, kiddo

 

[pooch182]

He's got over 300 confirmed kills

 

[PlateProp]

I'm going to punch you

you're dead, kiddo

I'm older than your punk ass

I'll see you at Aftershock and rub my beard on you

 

[DMG]

We don't know how old Lunchables actually is. He could be 6, or a clean shaven 50 year old man

 

[Hylian]

No way dude, I want my character to stay good and everyone else to have sucky chars. I prayed to Satan and he gave me Ness nerfs, I'm sticking to my gameplan!

My point was that Falcon bops IC's regardless so you have nothing to worry about lol.

 

[DMG]

Naw I'd probably lose to a really good one. Probably something silly like missing L cancels after Knee on shield and getting mcdobblewobbled or whatever they try to do these days

 

[941]

Bugged ICs are actually better against Falcon because faster ledge-hogging.
/s

 

[Saproling]

Of course Samus wins shes fire/ice Ivysaurs ass is grass.

 

[Frost | Odds]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

 

[TheRealBlueBlur]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

What makes Sonic so low? He was buffed from Brawl.