Tier List Speculation

[PootisKonga]

I'm also curious as to why you rate Yoshi as top tier

Not that I'm complaining

 

[Keman]

ok I have to ask since I am stupid on the subject, because Mario is the **** and why would I care about any other characters (although Ike is pretty cool, he has a big sword and doesn't afraid of anything)

What is it that makes Jigg's so bad in PM when the Puffball was a better then decent character in Melee? Same goes for Pika? Have the increased match up's been that bad for them? Looks like making them to be more like there Melee counterparts(which it seems the PMDT likes to do if its possible) would only serve to help them.

 

[GabPR]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

You really are biased against Sonic arent ya?

 

[~Dad~]

You really are biased against Sonic arent ya?

**** sonic

 

[PlateProp]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:
**** tier:

Plz stop putting Squirtle in a tier that's not bad

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ Frost | Odds
Are characters ordered within tiers? If so, I can understand Yoshi that high (don't really agree...). But Yoshi as second in the game, I don't see that. I don't think Sonics that low, neither is Ness. There the usual characters like Puff, Pit, Pikachu, and others who are put low due to lack of exposure rather than actual flaws (nobody has convinced me that they deserve that spot, just that they couldn't fit them anywhere else).

I appreciate that you didn't default to putting Climbers in a bug tier rather then actually having an opinion on them, maybe a bit high though. I like your placement of DDD, though I think he should move up a tier. I would also move Dorf down a tier, I dontnk he has that much potential. Also, why Lucas so high? I know most people put him way too low, buyt I don't see him as top 10.

 

[supascoot]

Plz stop putting Squirtle in a tier that's not bad

ok we get it, you're salty about your choice of main and want to tell everyone that, but can you stop posing the same thing whenever someone puts squirtle on a tier list? kthxbye

@ Frost | Odds I actually agree with your placement of ROB and Yoshi (If it isn't ordered), but I really disagree with ganon, GnW and Lucus. Infact, I actually think that your top tier and high tier are too bloated and that generally a lot of chars are a bit overrated. I don't think many things are TOO far out of place, but I don't see the reasoning on some placements, like how the minor buffs given to ganon somehow make him better then everyone bellow him

 

[DethM]

Thoughts on the Marth V Tink matchup?

Mario is definitely high-tier. Didn't get enough nerfs from 3.02 imo.

 

[PlateProp]

ok we get it, you're salty about your choice of main and want to tell everyone that, but can you stop posing the same thing whenever someone puts squirtle on a tier list? kthxbye

@ Frost | Odds I actually agree with your placement of ROB and Yoshi (If it isn't ordered), but I really disagree with ganon, GnW and Lucus. Infact, I actually think that your top tier and high tier are too bloated and that generally a lot of chars are a bit overrated. I don't think many things are TOO far out of place, but I don't see the reasoning on some placements, like how the minor buffs given to ganon somehow make him better then everyone bellow him

Someone doesn't get it, does he?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario is definitely top-tier, that is all. Didn't get enough nerfs from 3.02 Imo.

Mario isn't top tier anymore. He lost everything that made him that. Do you even read; rhetorical question.

 

[mimgrim]

So what exactly is it that makes pit not good in 3.5?

 

[GabPR]

So what exactly is it that makes pit not good in 3.5?

Cause Armada said so. So dont question it #kappa.

 

[Mean Green]

So what exactly is it that makes pit not good in 3.5?

Because he lost some autocombos and certain attacks were nerft kinda hard. Although he's still usable.. you just need to actually practice to use him now. He should be moved up at least one tier rank.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

This is my last bit of procrastination before hitting the books hard today. if i post again in the next 8 hours, pls call me out hard.

Couldn't find my old lists, which is fine. Whatever. The result may or may not be terribly different, though i'm both a better player and have more data than last time. Just modifying Lunchables's list - it *is* ordered, left to right, but i'm only human, so that doesn't make it likely to be right.

As usual, based on what I think each character's actual potential is at top level (human, not TAS) play - therefore assuming some (but not too many) mistakes are made by the theoretical players. I'm happy to defend any of these placements (and will probably catch a bunch of flak for yoshi and ROB. Again.) but later.

Top tier
High tier: (fixed)
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

Falco's and Sonic's low placement, as well as Ganon's, CF's and ROB's high placement are quite a statement.
CF keeps all of his Melee problems, including his suboptimal defensive options (bad spot dodge, tech rolls, bad tilts to fire out after teching or as quick anti-approach). Ganon is moving slow, has problems with projectiles and his neutral game options are commital and limited due to his slow speed.
About Sonic, I can see why you put him there but I don't agree. It seems putting hitboxes out works fine against Sonic first, but Sonic's method against that would be faking out many more approaches (run-in shield, run-in spot dodge). Basically, if one side has the option to approach while being able to avoid other character's approaches and can do a non-commital option when approaching (the fakeout) that catches you if you try to punish and can do an option that beats you if you don't try to punish (the actual approach), the optimal strategy would be to "slow the game down" by increasing the fakeout/actual appoach-ratio. An over-aggressive Sonic couldn't surpass the low/bottom tier.
This is only a model, but I find it models the game pretty well if one character has a speed advantage. I'd probably move Squirtle up a little for the same reason.
Here are my problems with your ROB placement. I think the character gets worse the more you know about the matchup (every character does, but ROB more than other characters you listed as top tier). SDI up out of D-smash makes his panic move worse, he has bad OoS options (attack on shield-> mixup between another attack and shield has good results against ROB), and his combos get worse as soon as players realize the standard combo DI isn't always the best against a character with an aerial aka side-B. Same goes for recovery as characters can try to escape downward out of ROB's offstage carries and recover diagonally, as ROB has no diagonal up-B and needs to use two charges to get back if he wants to chase you, limiting the options to carry offstage. ROB can also have problems against disjoint characters that just shell out an attack as soon as they see the side-B launching towards them. ROB isn't bad, but I don't think he is top tier.
Yoshi is underused and strong and as long as no one unfolds his true potential I can't really argue against him geing top 10, but my Smash intuition tells me that he can't be better than any spacie. I feel the combination of having few horizontal disjoints and not being lightning-fast could at least stop him from entering top 5. I agree about generally placing Yoshi high (especially at 20XX when he is the only one who can powershield grabs)

I also edit-quoted (Smashboards plz add tag on edits) your Marth matchup spread a few pages ago, sorry to make you search for it now ^^

 

[Hylian]

Because he lost some autocombos and certain attacks were nerft kinda hard. Although he's still usable.. you just need to actually practice to use him now. He should be moved up at least one tier rank.

Pit didn't have any auto-combos.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Pit does not suck in 3.5 ffs

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Pit d throw
Yes

 

[mimgrim]

Yea, I really wouldn't associate "auto-combos" with 3.02 Pit in all honesty.

I'm just trying to figure out why people see him as bad in the scope of 3.5. Yes he was nerfed, but so was just about everyone else in some shape or form.

He still has great mobility specs, still has a great edge-guard game, his D-throw is still good even if it is more of a tech-chase (and he has the mobility specs to tech-chase a good portion of the cast on reaction), still has a good WoP, can still carry characters to the blastzone, can still CG spacies (and maybe a few others like Falcon?) with Uthrow once he gets them to a certain percent, and glide is still really useful for him.

What is it that makes him bad to people? The fact that he isn't being used much? He was never used that much in 3.02 if you think about it. For some reason he isn't that popular of a character in P:M. and I think he might still go even with Spacies in 3.5 which is a pretty big deal.

 

[Player -0]

His D-Tilt and a lot of things are depressing.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

b/c up b is not as potent
doesnt work in half the old setups
can not carry you with arrows
His d throw is not a death move
Like real rap
3.02
D throw = you being ether dead or a few hits from death
you actually dont curse your life if he grabs now

 

[mimgrim]

And here I thought we were done looking through 3.02 goggles. Guess not though.

 

[PlateProp]

Pit does not suck in 3.5 ffs

It's more that he just kinda feels bad when you play him.

 

[mimgrim]

It's more that he just kinda feels bad when you play him.

Feels pretty good to me. :L

 

[Hylian]

Yea, I really wouldn't associate "auto-combos" with 3.02 Pit in all honesty.

.

Or you know..any character in the game sans final smashes.

 

[DMG]

Turning from a legit CG on good characters, into just a tech chase, is kind of like Sheik syndrome but worse if you think about it.

Pit's probably still good but he's not a char to sink a minimal of effort into and be good.

Falcon is good but he still has challenging MU's. I don't picture him as Top 5 because I expect those characters to either be really safe as a stand-alone, or I expect them to have very nice MU's vs the other top tiers. Falcon might not win a single MU against the trio of spacies (heck I'd be surprised if the best he could manage was even with Wolf probably), stuff like Mewtwo and Diddy are not easy don't be fooled by the nerfs! Etc

I might agree with Falcon top 8. Top 10 is like guaranteed for him, this is the best patch for him as other characters get touched. Top 5 is probably too bold, and probably paints his MU spread too easy. I would not recommend Falcon to some aspiring player if he wants an easy time in tourneys, put it that way.

 

[The Baron]

Turning from a legit CG on good characters, into just a tech chase, is kind of like Sheik syndrome but worse if you think about it.

Pit's probably still good but he's not a char to sink a minimal of effort into and be good.

Falcon is good but he still has challenging MU's. I don't picture him as Top 5 because I expect those characters to either be really safe as a stand-alone, or I expect them to have very nice MU's vs the other top tiers. Falcon might not win a single MU against the trio of spacies (heck I'd be surprised if the best he could manage was even with Wolf probably), stuff like Mewtwo and Diddy are not easy don't be fooled by the nerfs! Etc

I might agree with Falcon top 8. Top 10 is like guaranteed for him, this is the best patch for him as other characters get touched. Top 5 is probably too bold, and probably paints his MU spread too easy. I would not recommend Falcon to some aspiring player if he wants an easy time in tourneys, put it that way.

What character would you reccomend then. None of the top 5, especially spacies seem to be really easy to use and just about everyone has experience against all of them which matters if you want to kind of breeze through brackets unless I'm dumb and completely got the wrong idea from what you said. Also since you seem to be the authority on captain falcon, how do you think his match ups are, especially compared to 3.02

 

[DrinkingFood]

Don't argue with Odds, he's a expert on ROB because he plays bowser
ROB in the same tier as sheik and fox? Just lmao

 

[DMG]

What character would you reccomend then. None of the top 5, especially spacies seem to be really easy to use and just about everyone has experience against all of them which matters if you want to kind of breeze through brackets unless I'm dumb and completely got the wrong idea from what you said. Also since you seem to be the authority on captain falcon, how do you think his match ups are, especially compared to 3.02

Well ideally no character is easy to breeze thru bracket, unless you constantly get favorable MU's. What I was trying to get to I guess, was that it would probably take someone a lot of time or experience to understand and execute meaningful nuances with Captain Falcon to compete at a decent level, vs a safer or easier to understand character. Captain Falcon takes a decent commitment if you want to be above average with him: for the first time in a long time I don't have 2 or 3 characters at comparable skill levels. I have an improving Falcon, but weaker other characters now because of the focus and feel you have to maintain and grow. That's not something everyone can do, or would want to do, so it's simply easier to recommend a Sheik, Marth/Roy, at least some pocket Fox, etc


Captain Falcon's MU's are mostly easier in 3.5, but it would be foolish to just assume that chars like Diddy, Mewtwo, G^W, or others touched can't put up a fight anymore. His MU's can be very volatile, where any decent player with a decent character can probably kill you past 40% off an early edgeguard or get 80% off one grab. I'm not sure if he has any unplayable or ridiculous MU's right now, I think old Diddy might have held that title. Should still respect Diddy, he can almost fight 50/50 against Falcon without a Banana. Character is no joke lol


Then there are some MU's like Samus, where it's not totally clear who should win or if it's even. Falcon has a few that are entirely up for debate, since they don't appear to have been played at a Top Level in this patch

 

[The Baron]

Well ideally no character is easy to breeze thru bracket, unless you constantly get favorable MU's. What I was trying to get to I guess, was that it would probably take someone a lot of time or experience to understand and execute meaningful nuances with Captain Falcon to compete at a decent level, vs a safer or easier to understand character. Captain Falcon takes a decent commitment if you want to be above average with him: for the first time in a long time I don't have 2 or 3 characters at comparable skill levels. I have an improving Falcon, but weaker other characters now because of the focus and feel you have to maintain and grow. That's not something everyone can do, or would want to do, so it's simply easier to recommend a Sheik, Marth/Roy, at least some pocket Fox, etc


Captain Falcon's MU's are mostly easier in 3.5, but it would be foolish to just assume that chars like Diddy, Mewtwo, G^W, or others touched can't put up a fight anymore. His MU's can be very volatile, where any decent player with a decent character can probably kill you past 40% off an early edgeguard or get 80% off one grab. I'm not sure if he has any unplayable or ridiculous MU's right now, I think old Diddy might have held that title. Should still respect Diddy, he can almost fight 50/50 against Falcon without a Banana. Character is no joke lol


Then there are some MU's like Samus, where it's not totally clear who should win or if it's even. Falcon has a few that are entirely up for debate, since they don't appear to have been played at a Top Level in this patch

Ah, ok. Sorry for missing that and thank you for the insight on captain falcon. I've seen alot of people try and pick him up because he looks easy and then get crushed because they don't understand all the nuances involved with him, more so than any other character so what you say makes alot of sense. Also I'm going to jump to conclusions, assume you just called marth easy and get offended. It takes skill to grab people, throw them and foward smash them. Pure, unadultered, undeniable skill.

 

[DMG]

Marth is kind of hard too, but people tend to play way worse against Marth for whatever reason. They see Falcon and they buckle down for a tough fight. They see Marth and all of a sudden they miss 50 L cancels and never DI well. I will never understand

 

[Lizalfos]

I want to Drop Falco and get good at Squirtle, I'm just worried about the psychological repercussions.

 

[Player -0]

I'm waiting for you to SD at least 4 times, 3 times more than Squirtles usually do.

 

[The Baron]

Marth is kind of hard too, but people tend to play way worse against Marth for whatever reason. They see Falcon and they buckle down for a tough fight. They see Marth and all of a sudden they miss 50 L cancels and never DI well. I will never understand

They play worse due to fear and intimidation. I mean, if a man that pretty wanted to fight me, I'd probably be scared too. No one that pretty should want to fight, and the fact that he does means that I probably don't stand a chance and I should make it easy on my self, lie down, and take the beating.

 

[Lizalfos]

It is all the better for Marth. His presence is all the pressure he has.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm also curious as to why you rate Yoshi as top tier

Not that I'm complaining

retreating_djc_nair.gif
and many other reasons. He's slept on pretty hard in melee; just has a large tech barrier - and he's vastly, hugely better in PM. Having actually watched a bunch of Hamyojo's play (and tried a few things in the lab), it became pretty obvious how totally undeveloped the character is. Call it a 'callout' or whatever you like, PM Yoshi's even less developed right now than Bowser, Wolf, and Zelda. By far. I'm starting to think that C Stick Attack is also mandatory for DJC characters so that you can properly do advancing or retreating DJC nair. @metroid1117 back me up here

He has the best command grab in the game, three of the best smash attacks, immunity to shield pokes, awesome wavelands, ludicrous (if difficult) air mobility, and a bunch of other junk.

I'm convinced enough that I'll definitely be picking up Yoshi once my Bowser's developed enough that I start getting major diminishing returns on my practice with him. No johns

What is it that makes Jigg's so bad in PM when the Puffball was a better then decent character in Melee?

1. by far the most overrated char in melee. she actually loses to every top tier other than Peach
2. the transition to PM was not kind. the added characters are mostly of types that produce bad matchups for her

@ Frost | Odds
Are characters ordered within tiers? If so, I can understand Yoshi that high (don't really agree...). But Yoshi as second in the game, I don't see that. I don't think Sonics that low, neither is Ness. There the usual characters like Puff, Pit, Pikachu, and others who are put low due to lack of exposure rather than actual flaws (nobody has convinced me that they deserve that spot, just that they couldn't fit them anywhere else).

I appreciate that you didn't default to putting Climbers in a bug tier rather then actually having an opinion on them, maybe a bit high though. I like your placement of DDD, though I think he should move up a tier. I would also move Dorf down a tier, I dontnk he has that much potential. Also, why Lucas so high? I know most people put him way too low, buyt I don't see him as top 10.

1. Sorry dude, some characters aren't as good as the others. Not everybody is high tier right now.
2. Dorf is also totally undeveloped right now. Nobody's really figured out how to optimally capitalize on all his new options yet.

You really are biased against Sonic arent ya?

I've seen insufficient evidence to convince me that he isn't bad.

[Pit is bad] Cause Armada said so. So dont question it #kappa.

I just don't think he has the tools to compete in 3.5's meta, which is still kinda power-crept (though not nearly on the scale of 3.0). I'd love to be proven wrong, though. Anyone have videos of a pit beating good players?

Falcon is good but he still has challenging MU's. I don't picture him as Top 5 because I expect those characters to either be really safe as a stand-alone, or I expect them to have very nice MU's vs the other top tiers. Falcon might not win a single MU against the trio of spacies (heck I'd be surprised if the best he could manage was even with Wolf probably), stuff like Mewtwo and Diddy are not easy don't be fooled by the nerfs! Etc

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe Falcon was buffed pretty dramatically in a few areas:
1. Ease of use - don't knock it, the ability to much more consistently make use of a character's entire kit in tournament is a huge deal (take the improved Gentleman, for example)
2. In relation to the meta - the Melee top tiers to which he loses in Melee have been nerfed across the board, making him a lot more stable particularly in the Falco and Sheik matchups
3. Recovery - yeah. Pretty important in every matchup. upB's extra distance and the Raptor Boost's new utility makes him much harder to edgeguard consistently
4. Specials. I'm not as sure about this, but Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick both feel much better in general, though I'm not sure how. Could someone clarify? Am I just imagining this? If RB is better, it's a pretty big deal in the spacie matchups. B-reverse also lets him (like ganon) always Falcon Kick to recover, even when facing the wrong way; as well as RBing backwards out of a full run; or FKing backwards from a run -> crouch
5. The nair - is the nair better? Am I imagining this one too?
6. Falcon gatekeeps the hell out of a lot of new blood in PM, with floaty characters being the norm, all of which (even ridiculously strong ones, like ROB) tend to lose to Uair+Knee, The Character

I might agree with Falcon top 8. Top 10 is like guaranteed for him, this is the best patch for him as other characters get touched. Top 5 is probably too bold, and probably paints his MU spread too easy. I would not recommend Falcon to some aspiring player if he wants an easy time in tourneys, put it that way.

You could be right. I imagine that Fox is maybe favored 55-45 against Falcon, Marth and Roy lose 55-45 or 60-40, Falco beats him 55-45. ROB loses 60-40, Yoshi probably loses as well 55-45 or 60-40
If I'm right about that stuff, that's a hell of a matchup spread against the top tiers; and it only gets better for Falcon as you move down the tier list.

tl;dr
Most overrated chars in PM (imo): Falco, Sonic
Most underrated chars in PM (imo): Falcon, Yoshi, ROB, Marth, Ganon

Apart from those I think @Lunchables is pretty much on the money

edit: Please let me know if my post color is annoying. I only just found the feature - had previously assumed that everyone was manually recoloring all their posts. I think the blue is pretty readable on smashboards' default background, but idk what everyone else uses

I always feel kinda dumb for constantly qualifying all my opinions with the disclaimer that my opinions are not fact, and are always subject to change - but I like discussing this stuff because it moves our understanding of the meta forward; not just to feed my ego or whatever

 

[zFrost]

i don't see why changing c stick from smash to atk would make a difference in djc's

 

[PootisKonga]

i don't see why changing c stick from smash to atk would make a difference in djc's

Diagonal C stick movement = nair even without the control stick in neutral

 

[zFrost]

*changes cstick to attack*

 

[Lizalfos]

Yes, Falco is overrated, pls give b-stick lasers back.

 

[~Dad~]

He has the best command grab in the game.

Wario's bite tho