Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

ike should lose pretty hard to fox imo, literally all the fox player has to do is wait until ike does <something> and then get on him with tech spam dairs and shines, ike has zero options to reset to neutral an just takes a million damage and/or dies.

CF has nair and upthrow and weight which are all huge assets, i dont see ZSS having anything similar but idk the character that well

i still think marth sucks

my current strategy for fox is to hope i never come across one in a bracket. i have no idea what anyone is supposed to do about that character.

 

[Juushichi]

I would similarly like to accomplish this and on the whole generally do.

but I have m2k in my pool at Shots Fired.

I'm going to try to convince Jason to play random with me, but if it doesn't work send h e l p

 

[Leafeon]

I would similarly like to accomplish this and on the whole generally do.

but I have m2k in my pool at Shots Fired.

I'm going to try to convince Jason to play random with me, but if it doesn't work send h e l p

Help sent
Help might not be enough.

 

[PlateProp]

I would similarly like to accomplish this and on the whole generally do.

but I have m2k in my pool at Shots Fired.

I'm going to try to convince Jason to play random with me, but if it doesn't work send h e l p

Your only option is to cheese as hard as you can

At least m2k will say your char is op if you manage it

 

[Frost | Odds]

my current strategy for fox is to hope i never come across one in a bracket. i have no idea what anyone is supposed to do about that character.

For all the stereotypes about salty/whiny PM players; yeah, I agree. Watching Lucky tear through everyone at IaB last night with zero game or matchup knowledge was pretty saddening. I get that he's an amazing melee Fox player and trains with Mango regularly, but nobody should be able to get a free pass on MU, map, and physics knowledge against some of the best players in the community.

It's a shame @Oracle got nerves so bad. Dropping that many edgeguards isn't like him - I have faith for next time, though.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Real talk WHO were the fucbois who said Texas was better than Socal? Lucky straight BODIED Texas and isn't even ranked for pm.

Socal > Texas

and that is Final

 

[DrinkingFood]

Alright then, the massive disjoint is frame 30 with about 20 frames of lag. Also, it's frame 30. The only use it has against someone who is used to playing against zss is catching them on hard reads of tech chases. You shouldn't shield it, you should just jump over it and punish. Doesn't guarantee follow ups either because it's really easy to crouch cancel (or asdi).

As for her throws, they are all SUPER easy to DI. The correct DI for literally every throw is the same at all %s. If you get grabbed, you know what to do. The angle on her upthrow is fine, the problem is that it has ungodly amounts of lag. Characters like yoshi can literally DI in and hit you before you are out of lag. It never has chaingrabs unless they are high% spacies with no/bad di. Also, if she upthrows onto a platform and you aren't a fast faller, standing tech because she can't get out of lag in time to punish it. Her forward and back throw have alright angles to send off stage, but they have very little knock back growth meaning you never really send them too far away. Ftilting them off stage sends them farther from like 60% on. Dthrow sets up tech chases at low %s or against fast fallers and that's it. You get follow ups with bad DI, but you really have no excuse to DI badly against ZSS throws unless you've never played the matchup.



Fox has a much much better projectile and insanely safe approaches. ZSS's best approach option atm is a -3 upair or rar bair. Also, fox has much better DD punishes like upsmash, upthrow upair, or even dash attack to upsmash.



Falcon also has an insanely good nairplane, and a +1 on shield aerial with a punish game that uses insanely quick moves. If zss grabs you, she will throw you into a slightly disadvantageous place or get a tech chase. If falcon grabs you, you are either getting knee'd or combo'd and then maybe knee'd.

Basically, ZSS dash dance isn't bad. But it's not nearly as threatening as other DD based characters. I think her neutral is fine, but it's not spectacular. I don't get how anyone can say lucario has a bad neutral and then say zss neutral is good.

I could be wrong but I don't think side-b Is frame 30? Somebody get back to me with an exact number or maybe I'll just check tonight.

Also my point about the throws was not about DIing them wrong. Read the rest of that and try actually responding

 

[mimgrim]

Real talk WHO were the fucbois who said Texas was better than Socal? Lucky straight BODIED Texas and isn't even ranked for pm.

Fox > Texas

and that is Final

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[PlateProp]

Real talk WHO were the fucbois who said Texas was better than Socal? Lucky straight BODIED Texas and isn't even ranked for pm.

Socal > Texas

and that is Final

Texas is better overall, as in there is a larger number of good players compared to SoCal, where as SoCal has a few extremely good players.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Texas is better overall, as in there is a larger number of good players compared to SoCal, where as SoCal has a few extremely good players.

Lol no

SoCal is the best because it has the most good players. There are many many many people who should be raked, but aren't because they don't go to enough tournies. I region isn't considered good if there are only a few really good players.

 

[PlateProp]

Lol no

SoCal is the best because it has the most good players. There are many many many people who should be raked, but aren't because they don't go to enough tournies. I region isn't considered good if there are only a few really good players.

They are when it has m2k in it

 

[_A1]

The 2014 SSBMRank puts Lucky at 12th best; it can't just be Fox being broken. It shouldn't be a surprise that he wrecked Texas, despite it being PM.

And Socal > Texas anyday. This is hardly debatable imo.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

They are when it has m2k in it

Last I checked M2k wasn't at Infinity and Beyond last night

 

[Frost | Odds]

The 2014 SSBMRank puts Lucky at 12th best; it can't just be Fox being broken. It shouldn't be a surprise that he wrecked Texas, despite it being PM.

And Socal > Texas anyday. This is hardly debatable imo.

Of course. Sethlon's still a top 5 PM player, and Oracle probably isn't too far behind. This is hardly the only example of a Fox player just running train over a PM bracket simply because of the character he picked.

Lucky certainly is a better melee player than Texas. But are you seriously going to argue that his melee skill should completely negate a total lack of knowledge about PM physics, matchups, etc? Did he deserve to win a PM bracket for picking Fox?

The very fact that it's impossible to distinguish whether his actual skill won the day, or whether it was just Fox doing Fox things, is kinda disturbing. I'd rather be able to just cheer for him and know that he deserved the win.

 

[Foo]

I could be wrong but I don't think side-b Is frame 30? Somebody get back to me with an exact number or maybe I'll just check tonight.

Also my point about the throws was not about DIing them wrong. Read the rest of that and try actually responding

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-frame-data-3-02.353343/

First (inner hitbox. The one you don't want to hit with) comes out on frame 24. Second, (sweetspot, the hitbox that does things) lasts from frame 30 to frame 33.)

Also, how were you not talking about DIng them wrong? You said "Also her throws are not awful, several are quick and hard to DI (particularly uthrow which can lead to a chain grab or free follow-up with bad or no DI)" Her up throw is quick, sure, but it's not fast enough for someone to not have enough time to DI. Especially since it's weight dependent. It's like marth forward and back throw, minus the DI mixup.

 

[Strong Badam]

Real talk WHO were the fucbois who said Texas was better than Socal? Lucky straight BODIED Texas and isn't even ranked for pm.

Socal > Texas

and that is Final

Lucky isn't ranked for PM because he's inactive in SoCal, not because he's not obviously incredible. You can't just say the 12th best player in the world in Melee "isn't even ranked in our region lmao get bodied," as trash talk. Lmk when you're ready to crew battle us at Aftershock or Low Tier City 3.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Lucky isn't ranked for PM because he's inactive in SoCal, not because he's not obviously incredible. You can't just say the 12th best player in the world in Melee "isn't even ranked in our region lmao get bodied," as trash talk. Lmk when you're ready to crew battle us at Aftershock or Low Tier City 3.

Not even ranked as in there are people in Socal who are better than Lucky at Pm, and that was targeted at all the people who were saying Texas was better than Socal

 

[Strong Badam]

Texas is better than SoCal.

 

[mimgrim]

Can the circlejerk fest of which region is better be done somewhere else? :L

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Texas is better than SoCal.

you're a despicable human being you

 

[Soft Serve]

Can the circlejerk fest of which region is better be done somewhere else? :L

no, this is better than any tier list talk anyway

 

[Boiko]

I strongly disagree with anyone who said that Lucky didn't beat Texas, Fox did. Maybe I'm alone, but I don't think Fox is untouchably good. Even a 60-40 MU would imply a 3-2 split among players of equal skill.

 

[GabPR]

I strongly disagree with anyone who said that Lucky didn't beat Texas, Fox did. Maybe I'm alone, but I don't think Fox is untouchably good. Even a 60-40 MU would imply a 3-2 split among players of equal skill.

Everybody knows 60-40 = 100-0 #kappa

 

[DMG]

I see nothing wrong with calling Cali better than Texas in PM. For 80% of the criteria you'd consider for qualifying a region's strength, they are either stronger or closely matched. I've been thinking for awhile that Texas is probably #2 or #3 these days, we don't have enough growth outside of like 15-20 players imo.



BUT, you Cali loonies be janky with just lumping in your entire Melee and PM skill pool into one group. You ain't the best region because Fiction *might* decide to enter a PM bracket and go crazy, naw you don't get a free pass for that ****. Settle down, the glorious meat-ride you guys build up doesn't go that far til they actually go active.

 

[mimgrim]

I strongly disagree with anyone who said that Lucky didn't beat Texas, Fox did. Maybe I'm alone, but I don't think Fox is untouchably good. Even a 60-40 MU would imply a 3-2 split among players of equal skill.

Mine was a joke.

As if it wasn't obvious from the get go.

But now you have made me ruin the joke by stating it is a joke.

And for that you are a horrible person and I hate you.

 

[_A1]

I see nothing wrong with calling Cali better than Texas in PM. For 80% of the criteria you'd consider for qualifying a region's strength, they are either stronger or closely matched. I've been thinking for awhile that Texas is probably #2 or #3 these days, we don't have enough growth outside of like 15-20 players imo.



BUT, you Cali loonies be janky with just lumping in your entire Melee and PM skill pool into one group. You ain't the best region because Fiction *might* decide to enter a PM bracket and go crazy, naw you don't get a free pass for that ****. Settle down, the glorious meat-ride you guys build up doesn't go that far til they actually go active.

We could always categorize the games themselves as Smash in general.
Then the argument is which region is better at Smash.

 

[Ningildo]

Yes, let's ignore different mu's, characters, physics engine etc and just see who's best overall among smash games. Let's ignore preferences for certain entries in the series, because that hasn't affected a certain game staying alive for like 14 years now.

**** this circlejerk that will lead into yet another pm vs melee/ fox is(n't) broken discussion and **** people still not realizing fox/oli is literally the worst mu in this game.

Commence the ignoring of this post.

 

[Boiko]

and **** people still not realizing fox/oli is literally the worst mu in this game.

It sounds like you have a different agenda.

 

[DMG]

Only one agenda is holy and pure


Nerf Olimar

 

[Warzenschwein]

like, why how is he even allowed to have pikmin, I mean, olimar is basically 5 characters. that's the epitome of overpoweredness

 

[Ningildo]

If only for a second, imagine autolosing neutral. Then realize your opponent is faster as well and you have no safe approaches.

Fox just needs to stay away and laser oli to death percent to win, so unless you're at Yoshi's story, it's you trying in vain to catch him. Also, shine spikes.

It's unwinnable unless the fox screws up neutral badly, which is the kind of mu I'd think we're trying to avoid.

I'm pretty sure everyone here has an agenda. Or is that, like a properly functioning up b, a right oli mains don't have?

 

[Leafeon]

Of course. Sethlon's still a top 5 PM player, and Oracle probably isn't too far behind. This is hardly the only example of a Fox player just running train over a PM bracket simply because of the character he picked.

Lucky certainly is a better melee player than Texas. But are you seriously going to argue that his melee skill should completely negate a total lack of knowledge about PM physics, matchups, etc? Did he deserve to win a PM bracket for picking Fox?

The very fact that it's impossible to distinguish whether his actual skill won the day, or whether it was just Fox doing Fox things, is kinda disturbing. I'd rather be able to just cheer for him and know that he deserved the win.

Just for the record, it wasn't a "total lack of knowledge" of PM, several times in the commentary I think either Bwett or Infwinity said that they had housed him and were playing with him in friendlies since he got there.
He's a good player, and good players don't need much time to adapt. The same fundamentals carry over, all he needs to know is the movesets of new characters (more like their danger zones, not so much exact things about the moves), and to be used to RAR pretty much. (Of course I know there are more intricacies, I just don't want to bother naming more.) I believe it was said that he played even before going to TX at all, but I can't quote that on anyone, not sure.

 

[zman804]

Lucky isn't ranked for PM because he's inactive in SoCal, not because he's not obviously incredible. You can't just say the 12th best player in the world in Melee "isn't even ranked in our region lmao get bodied," as trash talk. Lmk when you're ready to crew battle us at Aftershock or Low Tier City 3.

Not even SoCal, but AZ would body Texas like we did at LTC2. Didn't you get bodied by an 8 year old AZ Olimar at LTC2? Don't worry, he plays Wario now so you can't nerf his character : )

Come to Sandstorm and prove me wrong though

 

[Frost | Odds]

Only one agenda is holy and pure


Nerf Olimar

For the night is dark and full of pikmin, but the nerfbat whacks them all away

Just for the record, it wasn't a "total lack of knowledge" of PM, several times in the commentary I think either Bwett or Infwinity said that they had housed him and were playing with him in friendlies since he got there.
He's a good player, and good players don't need much time to adapt. The same fundamentals carry over, all he needs to know is the movesets of new characters (more like their danger zones, not so much exact things about the moves), and to be used to RAR pretty much. (Of course I know there are more intricacies, I just don't want to bother naming more.) I believe it was said that he played even before going to TX at all, but I can't quote that on anyone, not sure.

Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I'd certainly buy that he's got vastly better fundamentals than anyone in TX, and I may have overreacted a bit - but it still seems pretty silly that a couple friendlies with fox are enough to gain sufficient matchup knowledge to just roll over everyone like that.

 

[steelguttey]

fox/olimar isnt that bad

marth/olimar on the other hand

 

[didds]

I beat lucky at bh4,
MN confirmed better than Texas.

Am I doing this right?

 

[Leafeon]

For the night is dark and full of pikmin, but the nerfbat whacks them all away


Yeah, that's fair enough. Like I said, I'd certainly buy that he's got vastly better fundamentals than anyone in TX, and I may have overreacted a bit - but it still seems pretty silly that a couple friendlies with fox are enough to gain sufficient matchup knowledge to just roll over everyone like that.

I believe he went in saying that "Sethlon in PM has a better chance of winning than Wobbles in melee."

 

[Soft Serve]

I beat lucky at bh4,
MN confirmed better than Texas.

Am I doing this right?

Yeah this is exactly what you're supposed to do

 

[DrinkingFood]

http://smashboards.com/threads/zero-suit-samus-frame-data-3-02.353343/

First (inner hitbox. The one you don't want to hit with) comes out on frame 24. Second, (sweetspot, the hitbox that does things) lasts from frame 30 to frame 33.)

Also, how were you not talking about DIng them wrong? You said "Also her throws are not awful, several are quick and hard to DI (particularly uthrow which can lead to a chain grab or free follow-up with bad or no DI)" Her up throw is quick, sure, but it's not fast enough for someone to not have enough time to DI. Especially since it's weight dependent. It's like marth forward and back throw, minus the DI mixup.

Jesus Christ, yes I said that and yes her uthrow is fast enough that you aren't gonna DI it on reaction even to the grab itself. Iirc it throws like frame 9 dont remember if it's weight dependant. But holy **** can you not read, I said REGARDLESS of whether or not that's true, she still has good throws. Low angle offstage throw? Check. Guaranteed tech chase or regrab throw? Check. Guaranteed platform tech chase or aerial string starter throw? Check.

Also first hit of side-b usually sends into the strong tip hit with proper spacing, how is that irrelevant? And the low endlag means it's tough to punish unless you can travel through the air over the hitbox a long distance like falcon.

 

[eideeiit]

So about that actual tier list speculation...

Fox obviously is top tier. What characters can actually deal with camping, laser-spamming foxes?