Tier List Speculation

[Pressio]

Lucario's shield pressure, if done correctly, leads to a free grab(normal grab or side b) so i dont get it why it should be overrated. I think that Lucarios meta game is still not full developed because of his complicated playstyle and he is already doing well in Tournaments.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You read the post wrong. I am not saying it is overrated for the reason it is bad, I am saying it is overrated because people shouldn't give Lucario that many opportunities to use it.

 

[GabPR]

You read the post wrong. I am not saying it is overrated for the reason it is bad, I am saying it is overrated because people shouldn't give Lucario that many opportunities to use it.

A few opportunities is the only thing a good lucario needs.

 

[Pressio]

And thats why lucario is very good in my opinion. He can combo the whole cast.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

A few opportunities is the only thing a good lucario needs.

A few fully charged f-smashes is all Bowser needs...
This is no real argument as long as it is unclear why the opposing player should allow you to get these opportunities. Otherwise those are gimmicks and shouldn't be considered in a tier list.

 

[PootisKonga]

A few fully charged f-smashes is all Bowser needs...

While I understand and agree with your overall point, comparing getting a single hit in to a move that should never hit in the first place doesn't really work

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You get my point and I know it is an exaggeration

 

[eideeiit]

How does Lucario deal with campers? Because in my opinion a character that can't just will not be able to be a top tier in this game, and I can't come up with anything very good. I don't play Lucario, though.

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

Squirtle is definitely in the top 10 or the best, he has absolutely no disadvantages from what I have seen.

 

[GabPR]

You get my point and I know it is an exaggeration

There are things called mingames, player skill and adaptability that we always have to take into account. We all know lucario has some disadvantages in neutral, the real question is, does he have the tools for a good player to get around those weakneses? And if he does get around those weaknesses, does he have enough compensation for doing so? If I would have to guess, id say yes

 

[Foo]

You read the post wrong. I am not saying it is overrated for the reason it is bad, I am saying it is overrated because people shouldn't give Lucario that many opportunities to use it.

Yeah, and also fox is upper mid too. Just don't let him hit you and he can't do anything....

 

[steelguttey]

Squirtle is definitely in the top 10 or the best, he has absolutely no disadvantages from what I have seen.

wow

 

[Boiko]

wow

I thought your Olimar was pretty solid. Why don't you place better?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah, and also fox is upper mid too. Just don't let him hit you and he can't do anything....

Read the post on the last page, I explained which neutral game weaknesses Lucario has that don't apply to Fox.
Also, you can't say Fox has a bad neutral game. My entire point was that (in general) a good punish game won't matter if you can't win the neutral. I don't think Lucario can't win the neutral but at his bad neutral game is just put aside. It may hold true in the practical game if the opponent is inexperienced or bad, but that doesn't tell you about that matchup.
Fox actually has the best neutral game in my opinion, so he is most likely to get a hit.

There are things called mingames, player skill and adaptability that we always have to take into account. We all know lucario has some disadvantages in neutral, the real question is, does he have the tools for a good player to get around those weakneses? And if he does get around those weaknesses, does he have enough compensation for doing so? If I would have to guess, id say yes

If he hadn't any tools to get around it I'd place him on 41 so apparently he has some. Still, the higher the level gets people get better at converting neutral game advantages, not only at playing around them. You see that in Melee Fox v Peach where Fox has a neutral game and Peach a punish game advantage, and it seems as if there is a cap at some point, where the Peach can't beat a Fox over a certain level (and in top shape) any more, because if the Peach doesn't get a majority of reads, the neutral is just so much in Fox' favour.

 

[steelguttey]

I thought your Olimar was pretty solid. Why don't you place better?

because i forget how to di at random points in the match and never decide on a main. im prolly gonna stick with olimar now cus i just have so much experience with that charhacter

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

Also, Squirtle's pivot-grab is, in my opinion, by far the best in the game.

 

[JOE!]

Fox beats space animals? Can't have that!

*pmdt goes to buff spacies*

Wait....

*goes to nerf Fox*

...****

 

[steelguttey]

Also, Squirtle's pivot-grab is, in my opinion, by far the best in the game.

i feel like youre trying to specifically piss off me

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

How? Sorry, I'm new here, so I don't exactly know the community too well. If I am pissing you off, then I apologize.

 

[GabPR]

Read the post on the last page, I explained which neutral game weaknesses Lucario has that don't apply to Fox.
Also, you can't say Fox has a bad neutral game. My entire point was that (in general) a good punish game won't matter if you can't win the neutral. I don't think Lucario can't win the neutral but at his bad neutral game is just put aside. It may hold true in the practical game if the opponent is inexperienced or bad, but that doesn't tell you about that matchup.
Fox actually has the best neutral game in my opinion, so he is most likely to get a hit.


If he hadn't any tools to get around it I'd place him on 41 so apparently he has some. Still, the higher the level gets people get better at converting neutral game advantages, not only at playing around them. You see that in Melee Fox v Peach where Fox has a neutral game and Peach a punish game advantage, and it seems as if there is a cap at some point, where the Peach can't beat a Fox over a certain level (and in top shape) any more, because if the Peach doesn't get a majority of reads, the neutral is just so much in Fox' favour.

My problem with your argument is not that fox has an advantage with the matchup or the neutral, my main problem is that you try to make it look like his neutral is worse than it actually is. "It only works when the opponent is bad", "If he has advantage in neutral, he cant win neutral no matter how good he is", "You have disadvantage in neutral, so your bad", "The punish game does not matter", etc.

The character has neutral disadvantages, but the player has the tools he needs to get around that and then exert his advantages (which you seem to ignore or disregard quite easily).

 

[Warzenschwein]

How? Sorry, I'm new here, so I don't exactly know the community too well. If I am pissing you off, then I apologize.

If you're new you might want to avoid this topic because it's an opinion-free zone.

It's a place for the Smash community's basement dwellers and pseudo-analysts!

 

[Chesstiger2612]

My problem with your argument is not that fox has an advantage with the matchup or the neutral, my main problem is that you try to make it look like his neutral is worse than it actually is. "It only works when the opponent is bad", "If he has advantage in neutral, he cant win neutral no matter how good he is", "You have disadvantage in neutral, so your bad", "The punish game does not matter", etc.

The character has neutral disadvantages, but the player has the tools he needs to get around that and then exert his advantages (which you seem to ignore or disregard quite easily).

Thank you for clarifying.
My point is that while he has tools to kinda get around, having neutral disadvantages (and even if they are not that big) will stop you from being top or upper high tier.

 

[GabPR]

Thank you for clarifying.
My point is that while he has tools to kinda get around, having neutral disadvantages (and even if they are not that big) will stop you from being top or upper high tier.

Makes sense, we shall see if in the future lucario playera will develop more his neutral and punish.

 

[Hylian]

I'ma take an excerpt from something I wrote in the PMBR about Lucario in regards to his neutral/punish game:

"There is a phenomenon with this character in which pretty much every high level player of the character thinks the characters neutral game is bad, yet a lot who play against those players disagree. I believe this stems from the amount of (or lack-of) commitment the character has to give in relation with his approach options.

When looking at actual effective approach options lucario is extremely telegraphed as pretty much only his dash attack is suitable for attacking a shield, or trying to win a dash dance interaction. Lucario players mitigate this weakness by playing passive-aggressive and attacking when their opponent is committed to an option ensuring a hit on shield or body rather than an extremely punishable whiff. You will rarely see good lucarios whiff moves in neutral, this is just optimization of the character. Other characters can afford to whiff moves to try and control space and have opportunities to catch approaches by doing so, lucario players focus just on getting a hit on shield or body because they are worrying about getting a confirmed hit rather than spacing or beating out an approach. The disconnect between the lucario players and the opponents lies in the amount of commitment the character puts fourth in different actions. While Lucario players feel they go "all in" to try and not whiff moves, their opponents see the extreme lack of commitment once lucario actually scores that hit."

 

[The Baron]

I'ma take an excerpt from something I wrote in the PMBR about Lucario in regards to his neutral/punish game:

"There is a phenomenon with this character in which pretty much every high level player of the character thinks the characters neutral game is bad, yet a lot who play against those players disagree. I believe this stems from the amount of (or lack-of) commitment the character has to give in relation with his approach options.

When looking at actual effective approach options lucario is extremely telegraphed as pretty much only his dash attack is suitable for attacking a shield, or trying to win a dash dance interaction. Lucario players mitigate this weakness by playing passive-aggressive and attacking when their opponent is committed to an option ensuring a hit on shield or body rather than an extremely punishable whiff. You will rarely see good lucarios whiff moves in neutral, this is just optimization of the character. Other characters can afford to whiff moves to try and control space and have opportunities to catch approaches by doing so, lucario players focus just on getting a hit on shield or body because they are worrying about getting a confirmed hit rather than spacing or beating out an approach. The disconnect between the lucario players and the opponents lies in the amount of commitment the character puts fourth in different actions. While Lucario players feel they go "all in" to try and not whiff moves, their opponents see the extreme lack of commitment once lucario actually scores that hit."

That was beautiful

 

[TreK]

The shield pressure is ok with me, as far as I am concerned I don't even have a shield in most matchups.
Lucario's down B is what I'm most afraid of.

It's not a goat neutral game by any means, but it is pretty good. It's simply not Lucario's strongest attribute, that's all imo.

 

[mimgrim]

I'ma take an excerpt from something I wrote in the PMBR about Lucario in regards to his neutral/punish game:

"There is a phenomenon with this character in which pretty much every high level player of the character thinks the characters neutral game is bad, yet a lot who play against those players disagree. I believe this stems from the amount of (or lack-of) commitment the character has to give in relation with his approach options.

When looking at actual effective approach options lucario is extremely telegraphed as pretty much only his dash attack is suitable for attacking a shield, or trying to win a dash dance interaction. Lucario players mitigate this weakness by playing passive-aggressive and attacking when their opponent is committed to an option ensuring a hit on shield or body rather than an extremely punishable whiff. You will rarely see good lucarios whiff moves in neutral, this is just optimization of the character. Other characters can afford to whiff moves to try and control space and have opportunities to catch approaches by doing so, lucario players focus just on getting a hit on shield or body because they are worrying about getting a confirmed hit rather than spacing or beating out an approach. The disconnect between the lucario players and the opponents lies in the amount of commitment the character puts fourth in different actions. While Lucario players feel they go "all in" to try and not whiff moves, their opponents see the extreme lack of commitment once lucario actually scores that hit."

So the secret to Lucario is...

DDing = win.

That's just borked.

Inb4I'mtakenseriously

 

[The Baron]

So the secret to Lucario is...

DDing = win.

That's just borked.

Inb4I'mtakenseriously

So, all marth players are also Lucario players?

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

If you're new you might want to avoid this topic because it's an opinion-free zone.

It's a place for the Smash community's basement dwellers and pseudo-analysts!

Ok, but, I think it is a fact that in Project M Squirtle has the best pivot-grab.

 

[Mera Mera]

Lucario can down b cancel super and both have a hitbox and be invincible. If you are in the air you cannot clash with this, and since he's invincible, you can't hit him either, so basically if you are in the air and he gets to the invincibility frames of his down b there is nothing you can do. I'm not saying he can do this on reaction from any distance or anything, but it does affect how close you HAVE to be to him in order for him to not be able to react if you want to approach from the air.

Also being able to punish a character when you predict a jump (regardless of their fadeback or would-be safe aerial placement), is not insignificant. Sure, it costs a charge, but it also only loses to spot dodge/roll air dodge, and even then the lucario can do fsmash / reverse fsmash out of the down b to cover some of those options.

Plus, Lucario's regular non-canceled down b presents similar problems simply because of the threat of a charge use (assuming he has a charge). After all, in order to not get hit you have to shield or dodge, (and in order to avoid shield pressure you have to dodge which is more committal). This means that while you COULD grab him on reaction during the endlag if he down b'ed without a charge, this is pretty risky as long as he has a charge. Also, while you could attempt to shield on reaction -> jump w/o reacting out of shield after predicted possible hit -> aerial his non super-ed down b endlag, he can ASDI down tech most moves at lower / mid percents and hit you for it. Not to mention the fact that you can't consistently predict when he'll hit shield cause he mix up when he cancels it and mix up what moves (which have different start up) he uses out of it. Edit: and if you try to wait and react to the lack cancel, you can't hit him in time unless he ends right next to you (which is pretty easy to get if you don't shield/dodge but up to his spacing if you do).

Then there's the fact that, super-ed or otherwise, if he down b's at you and you choose defense (which is needed to deal with the super-ed version) he can switch stage positions with you.

Now I'm not saying Lucario's neutral is god tier... but it's certainly not bad. Especially coupled with an on hit cancelable disjointed dash attack. Imo having dash attack be a solid straight up approach is questionable because it's available to him in his dash state, which is normally an effective state for positioning at the cost of options.

One thing I will say that I think DOES need a change:
Lucario's aerial down b super is one if not the worst designed thing in PM currently. You can't clash with his hitboxes cause he's in the air. He is simultaneously invincible and has a hitbox out (you do not lose invincibility before the hitbox comes out). It's kinda a dive kick with huge range (meaning you can use it to get to the ground which is nice against juggles). It's sorta angle-able if you include the down air shenanigans. So like... you can pretend to try to edge guard him to get him to waste a super (and hopefully you don't get hit), or you can wait to punish his landing except since you're not near him he has no incentive to use it. Basically if Lucario is high and has a charge, he's coming back, and if you try to stop him you'll take a charge from him, but you are also giving up center stage.

tldr: I agree with Lunchables that Lucario is top tier.

 

[Hylian]

You can't really punish just jumping with down-b cancel, that is way too many frames of commitment and would just be a hard read lol. Also, you only retain 10 frames on invincibility from the cancel, you can certainly beat out his aerial down-b cancel as long as you aren't right beside him when he does it. I have plenty of videos of me being edgeguarded during it.

I also think lucario is up there in tiers, but not for those reasons heh.

 

[Ningildo]

Ok, but, I think it is a fact that in Project M Squirtle has the best pivot-grab.

Cause a statement with no backing is hard to disprove.

"Why do you think that? " is a good question to ask yourself to find such backing.

And Oli's pivot grab is the best, lol. Great range with a fairly low amount of end lag make it hard to punish and easy to get grabbed by.

 

[Mera Mera]

You can't really punish just jumping with down-b cancel, that is way too many frames of commitment and would just be a hard read lol. Also, you only retain 10 frames on invincibility from the cancel, you can certainly beat out his aerial down-b cancel as long as you aren't right beside him when he does it. I have plenty of videos of me being edgeguarded during it.

I also think lucario is up there in tiers, but not for those reasons heh.

They aren't my reasons for him being top tier either. It's still primarily his punish game that makes him good. I just think people tend to underrate his neutral.

I realize it would be a read, I'm just saying that it is one reason a player can't nonstop approach against you (otherwise a read would be pretty reasonable). An option that forces mix ups in the timing of when you approach is relevant in the neutral. It's not an uncommon tool (Marth can just fair you w/o reacting if you predictably approach, but if you don't his fair will probs cost him at least space, for example). It just means mean that Lucario will have opportunities to be aggressive with his movement, and he is quite threatening when he's within a smaller range. Also you can use down b when it'd be decent for just the threat and if they happen to jump when /before you down b'ed you could cancel on reaction.

EDIT: My bad I did suggest you'd need to be close or he can react to your jump, which is probably not true (just checked PM debug and down b has 13 frames of start up before invince... not sure if you can cancel before that but I tried canceling frame 14 or 15 and it worked... what's the window?). I still think down b is relevant for the above reasons.

I'm more so saying he has more than people give him credit for. I suppose the invince is less relevant than I make it out to be on the ground at least (though def relevant). He also has decent disjoint on most of his moves so he's pretty good at stuffing approaches.

Again, not a godly neutral, but not a bad one.

As for the aerial down b, my point is you don't have to use it until they are close to you horizontally. Not to mention you can fly over them with dair the second they leave the ground (aka the second they give up their on stage dash/run). If they are in the air and (ignoring vertical component) within a certain distance of you, use it. Otherwise don't. The only things I can think of that would be troublesome would be jumps from the ground that have enough burst range to surprise you (Falco), and maybe characters with high horizontal burst who can also make it back (Falcon).

Also having been hit in that situation, even as a high level player like yourself, =/= you SHOULD get hit in that situation.

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

Cause a statement with no backing is hard to disprove.

"Why do you think that? " is a good question to ask yourself to find such backing.

And Oli's pivot grab is the best, lol. Great range with a fairly low amount of end lag make it hard to punish and easy to get grabbed by.

I'm sorry, what? I have tested the length of every characters pivot grab and Squirtle went the farthest, followed by Wolf and Diddy. Also, Squirtle's pivot grab has a special property where if you pivot grab onto the edge of a course and don't press anything Squirtle will grab onto the ledge (he will fall off if the ledge can't be grabbed), this makes it a very efficient strategy for ledge-guarding, and from what I have seen the property is exclusive to Squirtle's pivot grab.

 

[steelguttey]

I'm sorry, what? I have tested the length of every characters pivot grab and Squirtle went the farthest, followed by Wolf and Diddy. Also, Squirtle's pivot grab has a special property where if you pivot grab onto the edge of a course and don't press anything Squirtle will grab onto the ledge (he will fall off if the ledge can't be grabbed), this makes it a very efficient strategy for ledge-guarding, and from what I have seen the property is exclusive to Squirtle's pivot grab.

...

samus has the furthest, olimar with a blue is a close second.

 

[Ripple]

squirtles may change the most from standing to pivot, but it should be pretty obvious that DDD or charizard has the best pivot grab.

 

[steelguttey]

lol

 

[Jigglypwnz14]

I'm talking about the distance Squirtle slides, not the grab itself. And also the fact that he can garb onto ledges without going into air gives his pivot-grab another use.

 

[Mera Mera]

@ steelguttey That might be the furthest distance, but it also takes time to travel to that distance rather than being at max range frame 7. It's really not as good as Zard's or DDD's pivot grab imo. That's not even mentioning that Oli loses to attacks if an attack hits him on the same frame he hits the grab, since it's the Pikmin grabbing instead of Oli himself.

Comparing the two (Zard and DDD) I'd guess that DDD's has more range but Zard has better movement so it's a toss up.

Apparently for Zard you should dash attack cancel reverse grab apparently for more range but I have no idea what this mechanic is and why it would make Zard's grab have more range. Anyone know? I've heard multiple Zard mains tell me this and I'm not sure if they mean your grab box gets bigger or you slide further or what... I can't tell a difference.

 

[Ogopogo]

I'm talking about the distance Squirtle slides, not the grab itself. And also the fact that he can garb onto ledges without going into air gives his pivot-grab another use.

Well, usually when you'd say "Squirtle has the best pivot grab," people would assume you're talking about different attributes like range and lag of the grab.

Apparently for Zard you should dash attack cancel reverse grab apparently for more range but I have no idea what this mechanic is and why it would make Zard's grab have more range. Anyone know? I've heard multiple Zard mains tell me this and I'm not sure if they mean your grab box gets bigger or you slide further or what... I can't tell a difference.

Dash Cancel Pivot Grab just gives you more distance on your pivot grab, like if you wanted to get behind him and bthrow him offstage you might use the dash cancel pivot grab. You can do it by pressing the cstick down and then immediately doing a pivot grab.