Tier List Speculation

[PootisKonga]

There's kinda definitely probably maybe no reason for the Sakurai Combo to persist in PM.

What's a Sakurai Combo? Is it Headbutt->Fully charged Giant Punch like I see on most of Google or the one gif with that title where Falco kills with Shine->Firebird?

 

[Boiko]

Sakurai combo is recovery move into uair to kill.

 

[Deleted member]

Brunchables, QD attack does not beat CC.

afaik it does. Strong Bad and I had this conversation and he told me it does, along with the fact that I've had my CC broken several times by it.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not sure about TLink losing to Marth, Kirby losing THAT hard, Mario losing that hard, Sonic losing that hard, or DK losing much.

Tink loses to marth 4-6. Its incredibly difficult to deal with marths dash dance, he basically doesn't give you the free time you need to pull a bomb.

Also to @PlateProp who said marth is godlike, pls. Marth is a solid character, but hes not even close to broken spacies level whatsoever

I also have an unrelated question. Since Lunchables has been posting some pretty good tier lists for awhile, I've been wondering why I never see that much discussion about them?

I wonder this myself. Either
A. We're too invested in arguing specific characters
B. My tier list is so good that theres nothing to argue on

 

[Frost | Odds]

Tink loses to marth 4-6. Its incredibly difficult to deal with marths dash dance, he basically doesn't give you the free time you need to pull a bomb.

like

Also to plateprop who said marth is godlike, pls. Marth is a solid character, but hes not even close to broken spacies level whatsoever

not like

... Liked for being right on the internet, reported to Nintendo for also being wrong. On the internet.

Marth isn't theoretically as busted as spacies designwise - after all, he has no frame 1 JCable etc etc move; but that doesn't matter - the only thing that matters is the matchup spread. Marth's matchup spread is better than Falco's.

 

[Binary Clone]

I made a revision of Lunchable's tier list.
S tier:
A+ tier:
A tier:
A- tier:
B tier:
Not quite working tier:
lol:

 

[Deleted member]

I made a revision of Lunchable's tier list.
S tier:
A+ tier:
A tier:
A- tier:
B tier:
Not quite working tier:
lol:

Did you seriously only change the "kill me" tier?

I wish I could dislike your post.


also odds, I heavily disagree. Marth is not a top tier in 3.5 whatsoever.

 

[Binary Clone]

Did you seriously only change the "kill me" tier?

I wish I could dislike your post.


also odds, I heavily disagree. Marth is not a top tier in 3.5 whatsoever.

I was joking, but okay, I made some actual changes.

I know you've already disagreed with me here, but I don't think Falco is S tier alongside the other spacies and all.

I also don't think Sonic is A tier, really. He's decent for A- tier, but I don't think he belongs in the same tier as M2 or Luigi or Wario.

DK is also A tier now. I could most certainly be wrong about that, though.

 

[The Baron]

Nerfing landing lag on Up-B seems more than fair for Fox, nerfing Up-Air damage (it really does 18%? Will have to check later), and nerfing tech rolls a tad would be the best way to start.

I'd love this. Annoys the piss out of me that wolf has landing lag galore but fox has basically none. Makes it actually punishable.

I'm not sure about TLink losing to Marth, Kirby losing THAT hard, Mario losing that hard, Sonic losing that hard, or DK losing much.

Kirby doesn't have many saving graces in the matchup though being able to duck under grab is huge. I agree on mario not losing it that hard though he definitely struggles in my eyes and DK dies the minute he gets offstage though DK does the same thing in a fashion. I dunno, I feel like the characters that truly beat marth or at least give him a good run for his money are ones with hella good projectiles(fox, falco, link, Shiek), hella good burst movement combined with good followups to attacks(Dorf, Captain Falcon), can bully him really well(Wolf, Dedede) or out range/prioritize him (Shiek, Dedede). Ya know, every time I say something about marth he seems like the worst character on the planet. Go figure.

I made a revision of Lunchable's tier list.
S tier:
A+ tier:
A tier:
A- tier:
B tier:
Not quite working tier:
lol:

I agree with this though I think Lucas should be moved up a bit more as Neon has shown me a beacon of hope though I may be just a bit biased. Also I think that once IC's are patched they would probably be around A-A+ tier, but again, lots of bias.

 

[Frost | Odds]

also odds, I heavily disagree. Marth is not a top tier in 3.5 whatsoever.

Why? Does he not go pretty much even with all of the other top tiers? Does he have more than a small handful of disadvantageous matchups? Does he have any truly bad matchups?

Apologies if I'm coming across as hostile or anything - that's not my intent at all. I'm just thoroughly confused about why so many people seem to underrate Marth so dramatically.

For comparison, here's a[n admittedly subjective] list of Falco's matchups (anyone pls feel free to correct me where I'm wrong):

Nearly invalidated by Marth Falco:

Lose badly to Marth Falco:

Lose Moderately to Marth Falco:

Lose slightly to Marth Falco:

Roughly even:

Beat Marth Falco slightly:

Beat Marth Falco moderately:

Crushes Marth Falco:
N/A
Invalidates Marth Falco:
still nope

Some of those matchups were pretty even in Melee (notably Peach, Sheik, Fox, Samus), but IMO deserve slight bumps because of buffs of those characters as well as a worse stagelist for falco in PM, and the nerfs to Falco's shine and (much more significantly) dair. Roy doesn't gatekeep low tiers as hard as Marth does, but he's almost certainly better against spacies. Fox (imo) very slightly beats Falco in Melee thanks to the shinespike, and the fact that PM's average stage is larger helps him quite a bit in this matchup - the upsmash nerf obviously doesn't really matter here because Fox doesn't typically kill Falco with a damn upsmash.

I'm certainly wrong about some of these placements, but having played a significant amount of both Marth and Falco in PM and Melee, it's probably not by too much. Plus, math is on my side - I'm probably wrong about equally in both directions, heh.

While these matchups are a bit more polarized, doesn't this make Falco look downright reasonable compared to Marth?

 

[Deleted member]

You think... sheik beats falco 55-45? What

What?? What the hell made it go from 4-6 to 55-45 (aka melee to pm)

Also characters that don't beat falco: Bowser (What the hell, odds? Bowser?), Yoshi, Luigi, Sheik, Roy, Fox, Wolf. Most of these characters should go to even or lose.

Why does mario have a clearly adv matchup? Also, tink v falco is 3-7, so thats nearly invalidated.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ROB doesn't beat falco either. He can try to avoid lasers like a fat peach or reflect them back (side-b, not PS) but ultimately ROBs options to deal with them are higher commitment than Falco's shooting them, with little reward. He also can't CC Falco's dair as well as Fox's stuff nor cover all his tech options like he can with fox with a Dsmash since falco's rolls are longer. Meanwhile Falco doesn't actually have any issues punishing ROB because lolshinedair. He can even laser to limit ROBs boost recovery and intercept high recovery with a dair. Meanwhile ROB thrives off CGs and gimps so the punishment game is slightly better and easier on ROBs part but he slightly loses neutral so I generally think it's either even or slightly in Falco's favor

 

[PsionicSabreur]

but I mean if you want us to let Fox players keep their broken options for the sake of satisfying "purists" that is up to you

You're reading too much into that statement. I didn't even say what I thought the appropriate action would be in dealing with the backlash, just that it would likely happen.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You think... sheik beats falco 55-45? What? What?? What the hell made it go from 4-6 to 55-45 (aka melee to pm)

I'm told by local sheik and falco mains that it's basically even in Melee - 45-55 at worst; so I used that as my baseline. As for Sheik doing better in the matchup in PM, it's a combination of Falco's dair nerf (meaning he has a really hard time challenging her from the air (Sheik can now beat dair with usmash and ftilt, iirc), the PM stagelist being wide and flat (so Sheik can needle camp like crazy), and Sheik's new throws being fantastic for positional play against Falco. I think her fsmash was also buffed [citation needed], which would give her a pretty decent tool against Falco at that specific spacing.

Also characters that don't beat falco: Bowser (What the hell, odds? Bowser?)

Yes, Bowser. I'm actually inclined to say that the MU may be as far as 6-4 in Bowser's favor, pretty much entirely by virtue of his dash attack. If Falco jumps to laser at any range from which he could conceivably get a followup, Bowser can dash attack and, as likely as not, score a 0-death from that. Bowser can also platform camp Falco pretty hard, and gets Marth-like 0-deaths and edgeguards on Falco in general. Falco doesn't have Fox's DD or nairshine games or recovery or lasers, so he's not nearly as resilient against Bowser's means of taking up stage space, either.

Yoshi

We'll see. I still don't think Yoshi is played anywhere remotely near optimally in PM. He's way underrated in Melee and vastly better in PM, and his character archetype (close range, thriving on trades) does well against Falco (see Samus, Bowser, Peach).

Luigi

Again, similar trade-based archetype to previously mentioned characters. Luigi's also got a fantastic recovery now (one of his major weaknesses previously) and Falco has a hard time going deep on edgeguards.

Roy, Fox, Wolf

As for Roy, Marth goes even with Falco and Roy is much better against spacies. Fox was already addressed. Wolf: Maybe, but I'm inclined to think he does well due to the strength of his juggles, the size of his smashes, and the ludicrously low angles of some of his kill options.

Why does mario have a clearly adv matchup?

Mario's also criminally underrated this patch in general, has great trades against Falco, stuffs his laser approaches with the cape, has a CG I think, and a great angle on dsmash for killing Falco as well as being relatively tough to kill for Falco. Might be 55-45, but I strongly doubt that the MU is even, or a loss for Mario.

Also, tink v falco is 3-7, so thats nearly invalidated.

I stand corrected!

ROB doesn't beat falco either

Nothing personal dude, but you seem to have a habit of chronically underrating ROB. Of course you can't CC the dair, but if Falco is hitting you with the dair in neutral, you've got bigger problems than that move. You have a great point about his ability to limit ROB's recovery, but ROB has one of the best recoveries in the game despite that. Ultimately we don't disagree that hard on the matchup, but you seem to be forgetting a few things.

ROB has access to a lot of tools that give Falco a lot of trouble in other matchups such as lingering hitboxes that can be quickly placed above Falco to intercept his jump; a long ranged grab with great followups; amazing long ranged gimping ability; an immense, disjointed dtilt; a kill move with semispike knockback (bair) that can be set up from a tech chase (by a dair), and other goodies.

 

[Deleted member]

tbh sheik is pretty overrated in Melee. She has 4-6's vs both of the spacies, its definitely not even. She didn't really gain much in pm to deal with falco, **** like fsmash being buffed actually doesn't mean anything

Most of the others you could definitely argue, except fox/roy/wolf. Part of what makes marth vs falco even ish for marth is marths general floatyness, and roy is pure combo meat for falco. Both roy and marths punish games on falco are equal, and roy still obtains marths poor defensive options (such as a mediocre roll that doesn't help with shield pressure).

Fox vs. Falco has been debated for so long, and you could argue 55-45 in either favor. PLEASE LETS NOT ARGUE FOX VS FALCO IN THIS THREAD

Also I think wolf vs falco isn't really in wolfs favor, more even. Falco and fox are 2 of the few characters who can kind of just aerial through lasers since their aerials also are safe on shield due to shine. Fox MURDERS wolf, and falco/wolf is even.

 

[Chevy]

I completely disagree that Samus loses to Marth even a little bit. At worst it's even.

alright, I'll take your word for it.

I disagree with the revision lol. Marth is terrible for Samus. He's fast, can combo her, and has pretty much no issue with projectile pressure from her. Samus' best way to break neutral is with a conditioned grab(which is incredibly dangerous to throw out), or jab or f-tilt on a read, which nets her basically nothing, since she can't really combo non-fast fallers. He also gets free edgeguards on her, and she essentially has no way back on stage from ledge without perfecting aerial interrupts.

Granted, I also suck at this matchup, but it's definitely not even.

 

[jtm94]

I see Bowsers say Falco loses to him all the time. I've seen it in person as well and it confuses me greatly.

Puff and ICs beat Sheik how can they be kill me tier when I feel like I'm the one in kill me tier when I'm playing against them?

 

[Frost | Odds]

tbh sheik is pretty overrated in Melee. She has 4-6's vs both of the spacies, its definitely not even. She didn't really gain much in pm to deal with falco, **** like fsmash being buffed actually doesn't mean anything

Most of the others you could definitely argue, except fox/roy/wolf. Part of what makes marth vs falco even ish for marth is marths general floatyness, and roy is pure combo meat for falco. Both roy and marths punish games on falco are equal, and roy still obtains marths poor defensive options (such as a mediocre roll that doesn't help with shield pressure).

Fox vs. Falco has been debated for so long, and you could argue 55-45 in either favor. PLEASE LETS NOT ARGUE FOX VS FALCO IN THIS THREAD

Also I think wolf vs falco isn't really in wolfs favor, more even. Falco and fox are 2 of the few characters who can kind of just aerial through lasers since their aerials also are safe on shield due to shine. Fox MURDERS wolf, and falco/wolf is even.

Agreed entirely re: sheik being overrated in Melee, though I still think you're underselling the benefits she's gotten in PM. B-reversed needles, for example, are no goddamn joke.

I'm not quite sure that I can see Roy's punish game on Falco not being quite a bit better than Marth's - at around 70% or whenever when Marth's uthrow stops having proper followups on Falco, I'm pretty sure Roy can still get work done with DTilt. You're probably right about Roy being comboed harder in return, though.

I GOT OPINIONS ABOUT FOX VS FALCO

Re: Wolf, I don't think the lasers matter that much. He's still got Fox's mobility, the dash attack of the Gods, and far better kill moves for the matchup.

@ Chevy you're definitely more qualified to speak on the matchup. Re-reverted.

 

[InfinityCollision]

DK and M2 ought to move up vs Marth (arguably even, maybe slight disadvantage). Ivy should probably move up, but tether nerfs hit that matchup so hard that it's tough to say now. Either one should die the moment they go offstage, but it's easier for Marth to force Ivy offstage these days. Granted I wouldn't consider Snake "invalidated" by Marth either, so take that as you will.

ZSS and Link should move down, neither of them have a real argument for an even matchup there.

ICs might warrant a move up to moderate or slight disadvantage, not sure esp with current bugs in the way - @Hylian @Fumbles care to weigh in?

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm told by local sheik and falco mains that it's basically even in Melee - 45-55 at worst; so I used that as my baseline. As for Sheik doing better in the matchup in PM, it's a combination of Falco's dair nerf (meaning he has a really hard time challenging her from the air (Sheik can now beat dair with usmash and ftilt, iirc), the PM stagelist being wide and flat (so Sheik can needle camp like crazy), and Sheik's new throws being fantastic for positional play against Falco. I think her fsmash was also buffed [citation needed], which would give her a pretty decent tool against Falco at that specific spacing.


Yes, Bowser. I'm actually inclined to say that the MU may be as far as 6-4 in Bowser's favor, pretty much entirely by virtue of his dash attack. If Falco jumps to laser at any range from which he could conceivably get a followup, Bowser can dash attack and, as likely as not, score a 0-death from that. Bowser can also platform camp Falco pretty hard, and gets Marth-like 0-deaths and edgeguards on Falco in general. Falco doesn't have Fox's DD or nairshine games or recovery or lasers, so he's not nearly as resilient against Bowser's means of taking up stage space, either.


We'll see. I still don't think Yoshi is played anywhere remotely near optimally in PM. He's way underrated in Melee and vastly better in PM, and his character archetype (close range, thriving on trades) does well against Falco (see Samus, Bowser, Peach).


Again, similar trade-based archetype to previously mentioned characters. Luigi's also got a fantastic recovery now (one of his major weaknesses previously) and Falco has a hard time going deep on edgeguards.


As for Roy, Marth goes even with Falco and Roy is much better against spacies. Fox was already addressed. Wolf: Maybe, but I'm inclined to think he does well due to the strength of his juggles, the size of his smashes, and the ludicrously low angles of some of his kill options.


Mario's also criminally underrated this patch in general, has great trades against Falco, stuffs his laser approaches with the cape, has a CG I think, and a great angle on dsmash for killing Falco as well as being relatively tough to kill for Falco. Might be 55-45, but I strongly doubt that the MU is even, or a loss for Mario.


I stand corrected!


Nothing personal dude, but you seem to have a habit of chronically underrating ROB. Of course you can't CC the dair, but if Falco is hitting you with the dair in neutral, you've got bigger problems than that move. You have a great point about his ability to limit ROB's recovery, but ROB has one of the best recoveries in the game despite that. Ultimately we don't disagree that hard on the matchup, but you seem to be forgetting a few things.

ROB has access to a lot of tools that give Falco a lot of trouble in other matchups such as lingering hitboxes that can be quickly placed above Falco to intercept his jump; a long ranged grab with great followups; amazing long ranged gimping ability; an immense, disjointed dtilt; a kill move with semispike knockback (bair) that can be set up from a tech chase (by a dair), and other goodies.

Falco's lasers don't get eaten by needles anymore, and he can approach with bair now improving his ability to handle Sheik's SH shenanigans. Sheik gained more but not SO much more.

Also I don't chronically underrate ROB. I think he's high tier, but generally the way I hear him talked about is how he 70:30s everyone lmao. And then I correct bad information. I think he beats fox slightly and goes even with most of the high tiers, beats some, but he loses to falco/wolf slightly and sheik drastically (falcon too, who is generally rated high tier) which seems significant to me for him to lose to all but one top tier. Anyway there are definitely ways for falco to be getting hit by a dair that aren't doing something wrong. You can PS lasers because of your odd shape and small shield, so if you don't have a gyro out (hard to with lasers) then you can't use glide toss to deal with lasers so you do grounded side-b, but if the falco just empty SHs, you reflect nothing and get punished by, you guessed it, a dair or shine, neither of which is CCable. And if you don't side-b, he's just gonna lock you down into a dair approach and/or shield pressure. You can try boosting around from the get go but that's not really effective on stages with good platform cover because he can just stay under those and fire lasers high preventing you from boosting at him at all. And speaking of platforms they generally interrupt the CG at 30-40, and GHZ+FD can always be banned so you're left with SV as your only good counter pick unless there's 3 bans then you lose that too.

Also inaccuracies- ROB's grab reach from his dashing or idle hitboxes have average disjoint, not long. There stats threads are misleading because they measure this from the center of his character but he is very wide so...
Also you don't tech chase with dair into bair lmao what. Bair is like ROBs worst aerial because it hits mostly behind him yet he can't travel backwards with it, in fact it's main uses are cross ups on shield out of boost, extending CGs on fatties under 20%, and send mid to semi fast fallers offstage after dthrow, not on fast fallers

 

[Warhawk]

While these matchups are a bit more polarized, doesn't this make Falco look downright reasonable compared to Marth?

I think if those were Falco's matchup numbers, he would be reasonable.

I just don't think Falco loses to a lot of those characters. Only characters I can see beating him are Mewtwo, Fox, Yoshi, and DDD. Probably add in Samus, Peach, Bowser, and/or Kirby too but I'm more skeptical of them being on the winning end of that matchup. Even 8 characters sounds like too long of a list for characters that Falco loses too. I also don't think he goes even with Puff or Marth.

 

[Ripple]

2-3 pages ago I told everyone that DDD losses to falco. Does no one read this anymore? That's a dumb question.

Getting around lasers is actually incredibly frustrating because Jump squatsquat is 6 frames, heavy landing lag is 6 frames and ddd's Actual vertical acceleration is terrible. If I get hit by a laser within 5 frames of jumping I land and get an additional 6 frames lag

 

[Warhawk]

I said I could see it being possible, not that I necessarily agree lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

2-3 pages ago I told everyone that DDD losses to falco. Does no one read this anymore? That's a dumb question.

Getting around lasers is actually incredibly frustrating because Jump squatsquat is 6 frames, heavy landing lag is 6 frames and ddd's Actual vertical acceleration is terrible. If I get hit by a laser within 5 frames of jumping I land and get an additional 6 frames lag

My bad. I just assumed D3 won because pretty much every other conversation with you in this thread has basically gone like this:

Me: "Ripple, doesn't D3 lose pretty hard to [x character]?"
Ripple: "No you illogical dingdong of questionable parentage, DDD reks the hell out of him"
Me: "Oh"

 

[Narpas_sword]

Samus vs Falco goes like this:

Falco: Lasers
Samus: Boostball

Falco: "well... ****"

 

[Boiko]

I disagree with the revision lol. Marth is terrible for Samus. He's fast, can combo her, and has pretty much no issue with projectile pressure from her. Samus' best way to break neutral is with a conditioned grab(which is incredibly dangerous to throw out), or jab or f-tilt on a read, which nets her basically nothing, since she can't really combo non-fast fallers. He also gets free edgeguards on her, and she essentially has no way back on stage from ledge without perfecting aerial interrupts.

Granted, I also suck at this matchup, but it's definitely not even.

Marth has a lot of issues getting around projectiles in the neutral, boost ball auto forces CC by making Marth unable to tip which basically means free dsmash, and I have no idea how you're letting Marth edge guard you. Samus has a much easier time edge guarding Marth since her Nair trades with Upb and missiles can force him to recover low. You can also downward angle ftilt which has ludricous knockback or dsmash if he doesn't sweet spot. What Makes the MU hard for Samus is that once Marth gets her in the air she has a hard time getting down, but between stage variety and tether mechanics, it's not nearly as bad as it was in melee. Also, getting under Marth is relatively simple for Samus, and her new fire up smash gives him a bit of a hard time without good, consistent SDI. And if you're having trouble getting the kill, ice mode fair has your back, just don't try to beat out his fair with it. Wait for the opportunity and go in.This match up wasn't even that bad in melee. And now Samus has so many more tools. Just do your best to not let Marth get you in the air. Samus has a better footsie and stage control game. Marth has better juggling/punishes. 50-50 at least.

 

[Strong Badam]

afaik it does. Strong Bad and I had this conversation and he told me it does, along with the fact that I've had my CC broken several times by it.

It loses to CC for quite a while, which is why I don't use it at low percents outside of true combos (e.g. fthrow QDattack regrab).

 

[Chevy]

Marth has a lot of issues getting around projectiles in the neutral, boost ball auto forces CC by making Marth unable to tip which basically means free dsmash, and I have no idea how you're letting Marth edge guard you. Samus has a much easier time edge guarding Marth since her Nair trades with Upb and missiles can force him to recover low. You can also downward angle ftilt which has ludricous knockback or dsmash if he doesn't sweet spot. What Makes the MU hard for Samus is that once Marth gets her in the air she has a hard time getting down, but between stage variety and tether mechanics, it's not nearly as bad as it was in melee. Also, getting under Marth is relatively simple for Samus, and her new fire up smash gives him a bit of a hard time without good, consistent SDI. And if you're having trouble getting the kill, ice mode fair has your back, just don't try to beat out his fair with it. Wait for the opportunity and go in.This match up wasn't even that bad in melee. And now Samus has so many more tools. Just do your best to not let Marth get you in the air. Samus has a better footsie and stage control game. Marth has better juggling/punishes. 50-50 at least.

Marth can just short hop n-air or f-air through any missile, likely hitting Samus in the process, it's not an issue for him. He's also very fast, so there's rarely any time to shoot a missile without being punished for it. There is very little counterplay to Marth edgeguarding Samus. She cannot recover high against many characters, and definitely can't against Marth. So she has the mix-up of tether or screw attack. If she is close enough to screw attack, it can very well be reacted to or predicted with a roll to edgehog, it has a bunch of endlag, so even if he rolls and you land on stage he most likely still gets a punish. Alternatively, he can just sit on stage and throw out an f-smash, if you miss the sweetspot you die. If you successfully sweetspot you're still stuck on ledge against Marth. If god forbid you're far enough away that you must tether, you shouldn't come back. If you don't predict the precise moment that he goes for an aerial and air dodge through it, you probably die. Marth doesn't even have to risk that though, he can just hold ledge, and double jump d-air the forced hop for stock. Nair usually only trades with the beginning of Marth's up-b, and Marth can stall long enough to make the timing difficult, and his sweetspot is high enough above his head that he shouldn't really get hit by attacks from on stage.

Samus vs Falco goes like this:

Falco: Lasers
Samus: Boostball

Falco: "well... ****"

This is true until Falco realized that he can cancel lasers low enough to hit her anyway.

 

[Vashimus]

Marth was one of Samus' worst matchups next to Sheik and Falcon, it hasn't changed a lot in P:M for all the reasons Chevy stated. Marth still wins in neutral, combo-game, and edgeguarding, and while he can't outright kill her most of the time, he's still more than happy keeping you from touching the ground once he lands a good hit. Yes, he gets gimped, but that's not a problem unique to the matchup.

 

[Player -0]

Spam Zair? I legit think that is THE option vs. pressure/disjoints

 

[Foo]

Spam Zair? I legit think that is THE option vs. pressure/disjoints

Zair is nice, but you can't really win a game by spamming it. It's easy to block, wavedash oos against and even when it hits it does almost nothing.

@ Frost | Odds No way ZSS slightly loses to falco. I'd MUCH rather pick ganon in that matchup and I barely even play gannon. ZSS has the worst spacies matchups in the game (probably). She has incredibly low damage across the board and relies on comboing to rack % and she simply cannot combo fast fallers. Best I've done is a small uptilt chain against no DI. Once you get falco offstage (wolf too, but harder and forget about fox) you can gimp him, but it's still hard. She struggles to deal with side-b as well as other characters and up-b beats her dive kick out (usually).

And finally, you lost neutral so hard it's time to cry. Basically, all you do in that matchup is space bairs and pray to whatever god you believe in that he goes off stage for some reason. I think zss should be nearly invalidated by falco on the matchup chart. She is invalidated vs fox, but falco and wolf are almost as bad.

Also, I'd say ZSS loses moderately to marth. Last patch, with all of her cool toys, she beat him slightly. Now that all that's gone, she lost everything she had on him. No dc blaster means no free approaching, no nair range means no spacing against his shield and no 3.0 nair kb means combos are less reliable. It's hard because she can't really zone him out like she does to most characters when in advantage, and marths instant aerials oos are just too good for her to do any aerials into his shield. Only one that's safe is bair, and you have to retreat everytime you use it and use it really low. Plus, marth's bair makes it a lot easier to punish her tether hop and he can basically do it on reaction. She still combos him well and gimps him really well, but she loses nuetral slightly and can't keep him in disadvantage nearly as well.

@ Boiko I really don't understand why people say marth has trouble dealing with projectiles... He has great non-laggy tools to clank then, has an INSANE air game to jump over them with (or eat through them) and is really fast with a great wavedash oos. I don't even play marth, but I never had trouble dealing with spam as him. If it's falco lasers, sure, but otherwise, no.

 

[Binary Clone]

/r/ssbpm made a tier list, so now we can actually blame @PMS | Tink-er for this one, right?

If you want extra details about it the thread is here.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yeah, that thing is absolutely horrendous, but not as bad as it could be I guess. At least some of the characters are roughly where they belong, unlike CT's fraudulent 3.02 list.

@ Foo I really doubt that ZSS has the worst spacie matchups in a game where toon link, ness, Pit, and Olimar exist.

 

[steelguttey]

someone on r/ssbpm was complaining about tink being higher than link loooo o o o o o o l

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

He just wants to be the only zss in this world

 

[supascoot]

someone on r/ssbpm was complaining about tink being higher than link loooo o o o o o o l

Reddit is a good source of combo gifs, but the ideas/theorycrafting there are just garbage. I swear I've had someone say that "sonic was overnerfed" and that "he was fine in 3.0"

 

[Boiko]

Marth can just short hop n-air or f-air through any missile, likely hitting Samus in the process, it's not an issue for him. He's also very fast, so there's rarely any time to shoot a missile without being punished for it. There is very little counterplay to Marth edgeguarding Samus. She cannot recover high against many characters, and definitely can't against Marth. So she has the mix-up of tether or screw attack. If she is close enough to screw attack, it can very well be reacted to or predicted with a roll to edgehog, it has a bunch of endlag, so even if he rolls and you land on stage he most likely still gets a punish. Alternatively, he can just sit on stage and throw out an f-smash, if you miss the sweetspot you die. If you successfully sweetspot you're still stuck on ledge against Marth. If god forbid you're far enough away that you must tether, you shouldn't come back. If you don't predict the precise moment that he goes for an aerial and air dodge through it, you probably die. Marth doesn't even have to risk that though, he can just hold ledge, and double jump d-air the forced hop for stock. Nair usually only trades with the beginning of Marth's up-b, and Marth can stall long enough to make the timing difficult, and his sweetspot is high enough above his head that he shouldn't really get hit by attacks from on stage.

I think we'll have the agree to disagree here. In my mind, you shouldn't be shooting missiles when Marth is close enough to punish but instead space him out with tilts. And if he wants to throw out a laggy aerial to cover a missile, he should be punished for it. Or at least it can be a form of conditioning.

Marth was one of Samus' worst matchups next to Sheik and Falcon, it hasn't changed a lot in P:M for all the reasons Chevy stated. Marth still wins in neutral, combo-game, and edgeguarding, and while he can't outright kill her most of the time, he's still more than happy keeping you from touching the ground once he lands a good hit. Yes, he gets gimped, but that's not a problem unique to the matchup.

That's not even true... Sheik and Puff are far and away Samus' worst MU's in melee. Falcon is a tier down from that and Marth is below even that with there being arguments for it being even barring specific circumstaces. But I think comparing it to melee is sort of a bad argument anyway, as Samus has gained so much since then, it's hard to make a real comparison.

@ Foo I really doubt that ZSS has the worst spacie matchups in a game where toon link, ness, Pit, and Olimar exist.

As a Ness main I like the spacie MU.

Edit: @ Foo Ask JReed how hard of a time he had dealing with my projectiles. It doesn't really matter that Marth can clank with them or quickly move OoS if they're well placed or force a certain situation.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Funny how in 3.0 it was a common complaint that "combos were too easy/automatic", and now that PMDT a has "fixed" the "problem" it's not even uncommon for characters to have problems punishing spacies.
Also why do people think wolf loses to Fox? He doesn't have many guaranteed set-ups on fox at low percents but he has amazing tech chase throws which are almost as good. Or is there more to it than lack of punishments?

 

[CORY]

/r/ssbpm made a tier list, so now we can actually blame @PMS | Tink-er for this one, right?

If you want extra details about it the thread is here.

it looks ok overall. i don't think ganon should be over zss, yoshi, or mk (don't think putting him right in the middle is necessarily wrong, but with the characters that should go above him i think he fits more in b- there). mario probably goes down to b? ddd up to at least b, maybe b+? are these the thoughts of a dummy?

it definitely isn't terrible, overall.

 

[Jacob29]

yeah the reaction to the ssbpm tier list is kinda funny.

It's heralded as being absolutely awful, but it's actually not that bad.

Sure Falco is too high, Fox shouldn't be in his own tier, there are too many tiers etc etc, but I mean characters are roughly in their appropriate spots.