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Tier List Speculation

steelguttey

mei is bei
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
1,674
i gotta admit

melee characters work

look at top 8 results in pm tournaments, #1 is almost always fox or another melee character.

fking mango won beast 5 with fox and he knows nothing about hte matchups
 

shairn

Your favorite anime is bad.
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If you're the best player in the world playing the best character in the game there's a pretty good chance you're going to beat the other player regardless of the matchup in 3.5.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
You should play ZSS more to show that she isn't garbage >_>. Believe in the ZSS that believes in you!
I would but... honestly

I think the ZSS players kind of LIKE her doing bad, if she did good then they'd have less to complain about
 

didds

Smash Lord
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in a tree
Yeah, try using Fox.
are you saying, use fox to beat fox?
or like, yea fox is good, but he's impossible to use perfectly?

I don't know if you're being funny and deserve a like or are thinking that skill limitations should be taken into account for tier list speculation and deserve a scolding.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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are you saying, use fox to beat fox?
or like, yea fox is good, but he's impossible to use perfectly?

I don't know if you're being funny and deserve a like or are thinking that skill limitations should be taken into account for tier list speculation and deserve a scolding.
Try using Fox to beat Fox!
 

Warzenschwein

Smash Journeyman
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Mar 23, 2014
Messages
331
Okay, okay... topic change.

I think Shine deserves to be nerfed, do you guys have any suggesti... DAMN IT.
 

mimgrim

Smash Hero
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Somewhere magical
Let's talk about characters that go even with or maybe even beat Fox.

I know Ripple has said DDD is a soft counter to Fox. But I'm not sure how serious he was being when he said that.

I know like half of the P:M community thinks Marth goes even with or beats Fox in this game while the other half thinks he loses to Fox in this game and just has a worse time compared to Melee.

I dunno if M2 is still considered a Spacie slayer. I think some people believe Roy goes even. I've seen some people claim Ike to be the new Spacie slayer.

Any other characters? Wario? Mario? GnW? Some other random character?
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I probably troll too much if people didn't think I was serious last time I posted about DDD vs. fox
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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Calgary, Alberta
Wolf miiiight beat fox if you're really good at baiting, and pivot fsmashes?

Mewtwo probably wins the MU, but holy crap does he have to work hard. M2 is IMO easily the hardest character to play well in PM (though due to shortens, Wolf is probably the hardest to play optimally)

Bowser might win vs Fawkes on small stages.

I think all the FE characters beat him on FD?

ROB might also win on FD with a similarly ridiculous chaingrab, but I'm not actually sure how high it goes. Inb4 drinkingfood arguing that my mother was a hamster, etc

Tetraflora claims that Kirby wins the MU. I'm skeptical.

Samus probably beats Fox pretty soundly.
 

Boiko

:drshrug:
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I think Wolf/Fox is one of the most volatile match ups in the game and swings too strongly in one direction at a time to really favor one over the other.

I also wouldn't say Samus beats Fox. She has good tools against him, and that match up is probably close to even, but campy Fox is hard to deal with and she's unusually vulnerable to shine spike. Aggro Fox defintely gets creamed though.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
I've heard, at different times, the following characters being somewhat good against Fox (in no particular order):

1. Marth (don't see it)
2. Ike
3. Mewtwo
4. Kirby
5. Dedede
6. Samus
7. Mario
8. Metaknight
9. Pit/lucas (put these together because it was certainly said in 3.02. I doubt its true anymore).

I don't know any more. Any thoughts?

EDIT:

Also, why would the Marth/Fox matchup be any different? Is it because stage selection having more flat stages with less top platforms? Is it the ability to reverse upb ledge grab now?
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
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hinichii
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I've heard, at different times, the following characters being somewhat good against Fox (in no particular order):

1. Marth (don't see it)
2. Ike
3. Mewtwo
4. Kirby
5. Dedede
6. Samus
7. Mario
8. Metaknight
9. Pit/lucas (put these together because it was certainly said in 3.02. I doubt its true anymore).

I don't know any more. Any thoughts?

EDIT:

Also, why would the Marth/Fox matchup be any different? Is it because stage selection having more flat stages with less top platforms? Is it the ability to reverse upb ledge grab now?
mk does not do that great against fox now
mario was pretty solid against fox. he lost that dair, fireballs and recovery game, all of which, made it very doable for mario. hes like ok against fox now. still have the cg, so thats something
 

JOE!

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Summary:

If you have some sort of bull****, lame CG, then it is ok for spacies to exist as-is because that is totally a balancing factor rte?
 

Paradoxium

Smash Master
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I've heard, at different times, the following characters being somewhat good against Fox (in no particular order):

1. Marth (don't see it)
2. Ike
3. Mewtwo
4. Kirby
5. Dedede
6. Samus
7. Mario
8. Metaknight
9. Pit/lucas (put these together because it was certainly said in 3.02. I doubt its true anymore).

I don't know any more. Any thoughts?

EDIT:

Also, why would the Marth/Fox matchup be any different? Is it because stage selection having more flat stages with less top platforms? Is it the ability to reverse upb ledge grab now?
also add Rob and Charizard
 

TheGravyTrain

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Theboyingreen
I think I recall the yoshi boards saying Yoshi is good vs fox/wolf (not Falco cuz shine spike...). Being immune to both shine spike and up throw up air and combined with down smash, down tilt, up tilt, and air all seem to give yoshi a solid chance.
 

Psyant

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Psyant
Pika does quite well against Fox on FD and Smashville imo, maybe GHZ to a lesser extent. It's really easy to 0-death Fox with up throw chaingrab and usmash/utilt/uair juggling when there's little to no platform interference. Pika doesn't even need to land a raw grab either (which is admittedly difficult against Fox), because utilt, usmash and uair can all combo into a grab at various %s, and from there you can start the CG.
 

Soft Serve

softie
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Yeah so lists, interupting spacie talk for more spacie talk. Reasoning in spoilers, feel free to pick things apart, discussion is good
Top tier::wolf::fox:[:sheilda: because it matters]:sheik::roypm::falco:
High tier: :samus2::diddy::lucario::falcon::toonlink:
Upper mid tier::mario2::zerosuitsamus::yoshi2::lucas::rob::mewtwopm::gw::marth::luigi2::warioc:
Lower mid tier::sonic::peach::ike::metaknight::dedede::charizard::zelda::ness2::snake::pikachu2:
Low tier::squirtle::popo::ivysaur::link2::kirby2::jigglypuff:
Bottom tier::pit::ganondorf::dk2::bowser2:
Olimar's tears: :olimar::salt:

Talk/explanation:
I based the top 15 or so on rough MU spreads (only super confident on supplying accurate MU spreads for Diddy, wolf, and fox, if anyone really wants lists), then started getting vaguer and more into theory as I went down, with a few exceptions of characters I'm really familiar with (like ness). MU spreads are the most important, because characters can be god damn stupid broken like Luigi, but still lose a lot of important MU's just because of they way the characters work. This is more about current meta and understanding of the characters, with some theory of future optimization splashed in for a couple characters (ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, etc)

So Top tier. :wolf::fox:[:sheilda: because it matters]:sheik::roypm::falco:
Spacie tier+shiek. I think these 5 are the best characters, enough to be in a grouping slightly above the others. The biggest thing people will probably wonder is why I put Wolf over Fox.

Wolf over Fox: Wolf has a better MU spread, hands down. He wins most MU's just as hard or harder than the other spacies, and the only MU's that are slightly not his favor are falco and samus. There are a couple MU's he doesn't win harder than Fox (GnW, Diddy, for examples) but other than GnW(even) he still wins all the MU's. Fox also has losing MU's in PM other than slight falco, such as DDD. Not many, but enough for me to think Wolf has a slight edge over Fox.

Shielda is a thing. You have access to both MU spreads of the character at any given time, and choosing to dual main the two characters gives you an edge over other dual mains in that you can switch character mid match. Even if Zelda performs better than sheik in one MU, the combined MU spread would therefore be better than just sheiks, so sheilda's will always be at least slightly better, and can't be worse. I put it in brackets because some people still deny it should count.

Transitioning from sheilda to sheik. I have lower opinions of shiek in Melee (overrated character, loses at least 4 of the MU's in the top 8, roughly even with 2), but I think she is very very strong in PM. Most characters just can't approach her if they aren't fox or don't have a great projectile. This is a character that has the ability to wall out Fox, and characters like Kirby, Lucario, ZSS, Roy, etc have to find a way in on her. If you don't have the approaching abilities of a spacie, or speed+projectiles on par with Diddy/Mario/tink, you lose neutral hard. She just shuts down so much of the PM cast from getting to play their game. Then throw on Crawls, easier power shielding, great CC game. Shiek's approaches lose too CC at higher %'s, but she shouldn't need to approach because she converts off Anti-airs, grabs, CC's, and whiff punishes. Really good character, has more losing MU's than wolf/fox though, so 3rd.

Roy is so good, like damn. Damn.

Falco is still really good, but the dair nerfs created so much more counterplay for the opponent to deal with his approaches. you can anti-air late dair attempts before he hits the button, and just shield>any good OoS options to convert off his approaches. doesn't help that he still dies in one hit, with the worst recovery among the spacies, in a game where people hit harder and gimp deeper. Still has a significantly better MU spread that a lot of characters, enough for him to be in top tier as opposed to starting high tier. But has even more counterplay, with losing MU's now and not just a ton of even MU's. More characters are able to do what peach did in melee, ie take up that air space where falcos lasers fall short, more characters have outs to his pressure and projectiles, everyone kills him in 3 hits.

High tier. :samus2::diddy::lucario::falcon::toonlink:
These characters are real good. Samus/Diddy/Lucario/Tink were already really good, but only Diddy really got to shine publicly in 3.0 (other than lunchables and esam). Now they all either have more commitment attached to their design, or in the case of Samus, SDI changes to make certain things not free, and bug fixes to stop her from just ignoring shields all the time with bomb>aerials on shield (they ignored shields >.>). Falcon is still falcon, with less **** to wade through, so he gets to show off how stupid he is now more.

Samus is really good still. I thought at first when 3.5 dropped that she got hit too hard, but really all that changed were a few minor things that didn't detract from her core playstyle. She still has up-b OoS which is crazy good (gets out of all of Wolf's sheild pressure, blows up falco due to nerfs, fox still has to do frame perfect nair shines to cover it) and is important vs more than just spacies. Probably still loses to Fox in PM (tether changes make gimping her like, 3x less challenging than in melee) but I think she beats the other two spacies slightly, while being incredibly solid all around vs the rest of the cast. Great CC game, doesn't care too much about CCing against her, solid combo game, great projectile game, good on nearly every stage, great CP game. Crawl is also incredibly strong, shrinks hutboxes, has access to her full kit/cc near instantly.

Diddy. I could talk for days about Diddy (I do) but Diddy is still fantastic. All that got thrown onto him was commitment on a few tools, and he has marth syndrome now, worse than marth gets it. He has a decent number of even MU's, but beats most of the cast, losing to only Spacies, Samus, and Peach. Thats a damn good MU spread on a character who already has immense number of tools for nearly every situation. Arguably the best OoS option in PM (glide tossing, man), doesn't care about CC at all because he converts off grabs, side-bs, and trips+whiff punishes. Fast, flexible, best item in the game, one of the strongest neutrals. nearly broken good bair (although its one of his only good hitboxes), still fantastic character. His MU spread + his stupid flexible tool kit makes him an easy top 10 character.

Lucario is really good. Usable projectile, good burst movement (which he can spend resource on to convert off it faster), good general mobility, good throws at low%'s, option selects, and great combo game. His counterplay is there, but once he starts going in on you the counterplay changes from "abuse his lacking approach game" to "React better than Taj and SDI perfectly or eat 60+% and give him more meter." Lucario is silly. not broken, but silly and really good.

Falcon. "Shiek Dthrow>fairs, she gets booed. Falcon dthrow fairs and everyone loses their ****." Falcon's actually bad MU's are probably only Spacies + other lock down/rush down characters. everyone else he just takes to a bigger stage (because he can) and just DD around you, not approaching (because he can't/doesn't have to) and kill you with 1-2 conversions. Good character, top 10. Salt/hype inducing. I hate him.

Tink is really good too. Converts off projectiles he can spawn while running away, if you can't catch him whelp good luck. 19% boomerang too. exploitable recovery, but his neutral and punish game is very strong and simple to be effective with, with intricacies mixed in to optimize it and create traps to catch people doing smart things. He doesn't have many bad MU's. I'm not a tink expert, but I think he his strong enough to be top 10, and better than the characters below him.
upper mid:
:mario2::zerosuitsamus::yoshi2::lucas::rob::mewtwopm::gw::marth::luigi2::warioc:
Upper mid is full of characters that are still great, but not as strong as the high tier characters. Mario is the same character as before, just some slight tweaks that tamed some of his unhealthy traits. ZZS is so good, and has so much potential left to develop. She's a new character, very good vs most of the cast but crumbles to faster characters/characters that control hoizontal better than her. Yoshi is amazing. I hope his shield never gets fixed because if he had melee parry he'd be top 5. Crazy character, only held back by struggling with rush down and some projectiles. Lucas is still lucas, just has to work a bit harder and make better choices to take stocks, and doesn't have broken, felxible recovery anymore. His shield pressure took a hit, but he can still threaten your shield with a disjointed jcable magnet. Putting him in top 15 is very reasonable. Rounding out top 15 is ROB. Rob has enough tools to deal with nearly every MU, but recent tourney results have people over evaluating him, like putting him top 5.
M2 is still really strong, hard to play and has actual MU's now, because he doesn't install win neutral. Struggles with floaties like in melee, but tp and hover fill a lot of holes in his punish game from melee. WD dtilt got even better. Gnw is Soooo gooodd. Like damn, if he didn't get bopped by swordies so hard he'd be higher. Marth works too hard in every MU for less reward than other characters, and doesn't beat fox in pm due to Stagelists and banning. Luigi is a broken little **** with untapped horizontal control potential, thankfully projectiles and spacies exist. Wario is also really really solid, but imo his bad MUs are all characters that are better than him so he struggles vs good/common picks.

Lower mid is full of great characters with flaws and problems. Have some bad traits that can make them struggle vs characters in the top 10.

Low tier characters are still good, but honestly struggle vs most of the cast. Big uphill battles vs everyone above them.

Bottom tiers are pit olimar +fatties. Pit/olimar got over nerfed, fatties are still bad.
 
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DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
I'm going to answer Fox related things since we've sprung up on this convo again (replies in Orange)

The_NZA:

1. Marth (don't see it) - Marth does worse in PM than Melee when it comes to Fox. Bigger stages, the ability to ban FD in 3/5 sets, etc contributes to a slightly worse MU.

2. Ike - 55:45 Fox Favor stage dependent. If you don't understand how to abuse Quick Draw, or don't do lame things like chain grab/flying edgeguards, MU is closer to 65:35

3. Mewtwo - If you're not top 3 Mewtwo, this rating probably doesn't matter and will boil down to the better/more experience player winning. M2K vs a Spacie is probably 55:45 / 6:4 M2K's favor, normally *might* be considered even for less godly M2 mains

4. Kirby - If you're not Chu Dat level, rating doesn't matter as much. You'll probably slightly lose against similar level Fox, once you pass a certain barrier of skill (but not at tip-toppest level). From above average level and below, Kirby probably wins from a lack of understanding (even if Kirby player was playing inefficiently, chances of knowing how to punish Kirby much lower)

5. Dedede - Probably very stage dependent. Ripple is the only person I'd fear with D3: Fly if he comes back one day. D3 players as a group don't prove it a good MU for the char. If I could give it a number between 5:5 and 55:45 D3's favor (aggregate of all stages factored in already), I probably would. 53:47 D3 Favor.

6. Samus - Hard MU to rate. Both sides have things to optimize, should favor Samus in theory if you don't make many mistakes (curl into ball and react to Fox choices for example). Samus players go work on morph ball, Fox players go work on dealing with that and her tether change, then you'll have a real MU. Give this a ??? til future progress

7. Mario - 3.02 Mario was good. This Mario loses

8. Metaknight - MK does worse in this patch, you probably need to outplay your opponent at similar skill levels across all ranges

9. Pit/lucas (put these together because it was certainly said in 3.02. I doubt its true anymore). - Neither of these probably get an edge, but there's nothing wrong with a "doable" 55:45 / 6:4 disadvantage. Have no idea how Lucas actually does, he's a nerd


Also, Wario vs Fox is not good if Fox is on point. He doesn't have answers to Shine: he's similar to Captain Falcon where you get bogged down by Spacie moves and your shield options suck, and might get dragged across the stage/offstage into a terrible edgeguard situation. Falco is probably marginally easier if you can PS lasers, but neither MU favors Wario.


Wolf vs Fox boils down to better player. Probably favors Fox players on a practical, non top level since Wolf players have a lot more to optimize

IDK how Yoshi does vs Fox. Hamyojo could probably shed light on that. My gut is that the parry differences (if they still aren't fixed) might prevent Yoshi from having an edge due to lingering moves being safer against parry???
 
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