Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

IDK how Yoshi does vs Fox. Hamyojo could probably shed light on that. My gut is that the parry differences (if they still aren't fixed) might prevent Yoshi from having an edge due to lingering moves being safer against parry???

I don't think Raptor minded it too much. I know he didn't like Falco though.

 

[steelguttey]

the best counter to fox is up throw

 

[Strong Badam]

Don't tell that to @ Strong Badam .

he is correct, Fox is a much harder matchup for Wario than Falco (who he does quite well against; it's about even IMO)

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah so lists, interupting spacie talk for more spacie talk. Reasoning in spoilers, feel free to pick things apart, discussion is good
Top tier:[ because it matters]
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
Bottom tier:
Olimar's tears:

Talk/explanation:
I based the top 15 or so on rough MU spreads (only super confident on supplying accurate MU spreads for Diddy, wolf, and fox, if anyone really wants lists), then started getting vaguer and more into theory as I went down, with a few exceptions of characters I'm really familiar with (like ness). MU spreads are the most important, because characters can be god damn stupid broken like Luigi, but still lose a lot of important MU's just because of they way the characters work. This is more about current meta and understanding of the characters, with some theory of future optimization splashed in for a couple characters (ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, etc)

So Top tier. [ because it matters]

Spoiler

Spacie tier+shiek. I think these 5 are the best characters, enough to be in a grouping slightly above the others. The biggest thing people will probably wonder is why I put Wolf over Fox.

Wolf over Fox: Wolf has a better MU spread, hands down. He wins most MU's just as hard or harder than the other spacies, and the only MU's that are slightly not his favor are falco and samus. There are a couple MU's he doesn't win harder than Fox (GnW, Diddy, for examples) but other than GnW(even) he still wins all the MU's. Fox also has losing MU's in PM other than slight falco, such as DDD. Not many, but enough for me to think Wolf has a slight edge over Fox.

Shielda is a thing. You have access to both MU spreads of the character at any given time, and choosing to dual main the two characters gives you an edge over other dual mains in that you can switch character mid match. Even if Zelda performs better than sheik in one MU, the combined MU spread would therefore be better than just sheiks, so sheilda's will always be at least slightly better, and can't be worse. I put it in brackets because some people still deny it should count.

Transitioning from sheilda to sheik. I have lower opinions of shiek in Melee (overrated character, loses at least 4 of the MU's in the top 8, roughly even with 2), but I think she is very very strong in PM. Most characters just can't approach her if they aren't fox or don't have a great projectile. This is a character that has the ability to wall out Fox, and characters like Kirby, Lucario, ZSS, Roy, etc have to find a way in on her. If you don't have the approaching abilities of a spacie, or speed+projectiles on par with Diddy/Mario/tink, you lose neutral hard. She just shuts down so much of the PM cast from getting to play their game. Then throw on Crawls, easier power shielding, great CC game. Shiek's approaches lose too CC at higher %'s, but she shouldn't need to approach because she converts off Anti-airs, grabs, CC's, and whiff punishes. Really good character, has more losing MU's than wolf/fox though, so 3rd.

Roy is so good, like damn. Damn.

Falco is still really good, but the dair nerfs created so much more counterplay for the opponent to deal with his approaches. you can anti-air late dair attempts before he hits the button, and just shield>any good OoS options to convert off his approaches. doesn't help that he still dies in one hit, with the worst recovery among the spacies, in a game where people hit harder and gimp deeper. Still has a significantly better MU spread that a lot of characters, enough for him to be in top tier as opposed to starting high tier. But has even more counterplay, with losing MU's now and not just a ton of even MU's. More characters are able to do what peach did in melee, ie take up that air space where falcos lasers fall short, more characters have outs to his pressure and projectiles, everyone kills him in 3 hits.

High tier.

Spoiler

These characters are real good. Samus/Diddy/Lucario/Tink were already really good, but only Diddy really got to shine publicly in 3.0 (other than lunchables and esam). Now they all either have more commitment attached to their design, or in the case of Samus, SDI changes to make certain things not free, and bug fixes to stop her from just ignoring shields all the time with bomb>aerials on shield (they ignored shields >.>). Falcon is still falcon, with less **** to wade through, so he gets to show off how stupid he is now more.

Samus is really good still. I thought at first when 3.5 dropped that she got hit too hard, but really all that changed were a few minor things that didn't detract from her core playstyle. She still has up-b OoS which is crazy good (gets out of all of Wolf's sheild pressure, blows up falco due to nerfs, fox still has to do frame perfect nair shines to cover it) and is important vs more than just spacies. Probably still loses to Fox in PM (tether changes make gimping her like, 3x less challenging than in melee) but I think she beats the other two spacies slightly, while being incredibly solid all around vs the rest of the cast. Great CC game, doesn't care too much about CCing against her, solid combo game, great projectile game, good on nearly every stage, great CP game. Crawl is also incredibly strong, shrinks hutboxes, has access to her full kit/cc near instantly.

Diddy. I could talk for days about Diddy (I do) but Diddy is still fantastic. All that got thrown onto him was commitment on a few tools, and he has marth syndrome now, worse than marth gets it. He has a decent number of even MU's, but beats most of the cast, losing to only Spacies, Samus, and Peach. Thats a damn good MU spread on a character who already has immense number of tools for nearly every situation. Arguably the best OoS option in PM (glide tossing, man), doesn't care about CC at all because he converts off grabs, side-bs, and trips+whiff punishes. Fast, flexible, best item in the game, one of the strongest neutrals. nearly broken good bair (although its one of his only good hitboxes), still fantastic character. His MU spread + his stupid flexible tool kit makes him an easy top 10 character.

Lucario is really good. Usable projectile, good burst movement (which he can spend resource on to convert off it faster), good general mobility, good throws at low%'s, option selects, and great combo game. His counterplay is there, but once he starts going in on you the counterplay changes from "abuse his lacking approach game" to "React better than Taj and SDI perfectly or eat 60+% and give him more meter." Lucario is silly. not broken, but silly and really good.

Falcon. "Shiek Dthrow>fairs, she gets booed. Falcon dthrow fairs and everyone loses their ****." Falcon's actually bad MU's are probably only Spacies + other lock down/rush down characters. everyone else he just takes to a bigger stage (because he can) and just DD around you, not approaching (because he can't/doesn't have to) and kill you with 1-2 conversions. Good character, top 10. Salt/hype inducing. I hate him.

Tink is really good too. Converts off projectiles he can spawn while running away, if you can't catch him whelp good luck. 19% boomerang too. exploitable recovery, but his neutral and punish game is very strong and simple to be effective with, with intricacies mixed in to optimize it and create traps to catch people doing smart things. He doesn't have many bad MU's. I'm not a tink expert, but I think he his strong enough to be top 10, and better than the characters below him.

upper mid:

Spoiler

Upper mid is full of characters that are still great, but not as strong as the high tier characters. Mario is the same character as before, just some slight tweaks that tamed some of his unhealthy traits. ZZS is so good, and has so much potential left to develop. She's a new character, very good vs most of the cast but crumbles to faster characters/characters that control hoizontal better than her. Yoshi is amazing. I hope his shield never gets fixed because if he had melee parry he'd be top 5. Crazy character, only held back by struggling with rush down and some projectiles. Lucas is still lucas, just has to work a bit harder and make better choices to take stocks, and doesn't have broken, felxible recovery anymore. His shield pressure took a hit, but he can still threaten your shield with a disjointed jcable magnet. Putting him in top 15 is very reasonable. Rounding out top 15 is ROB. Rob has enough tools to deal with nearly every MU, but recent tourney results have people over evaluating him, like putting him top 5.
M2 is still really strong, hard to play and has actual MU's now, because he doesn't install win neutral. Struggles with floaties like in melee, but tp and hover fill a lot of holes in his punish game from melee. WD dtilt got even better. Gnw is Soooo gooodd. Like damn, if he didn't get bopped by swordies so hard he'd be higher. Marth works too hard in every MU for less reward than other characters, and doesn't beat fox in pm due to Stagelists and banning. Luigi is a broken little **** with untapped horizontal control potential, thankfully projectiles and spacies exist. Wario is also really really solid, but imo his bad MUs are all characters that are better than him so he struggles vs good/common picks.

Lower mid is full of great characters with flaws and problems. Have some bad traits that can make them struggle vs characters in the top 10.

Low tier characters are still good, but honestly struggle vs most of the cast. Big uphill battles vs everyone above them.

Bottom tiers are pit olimar +fatties. Pit/olimar got over nerfed, fatties are still bad.

I like your list at some points, however I think:
- Roy is at best a bit better than Marth. Either move Marth up (probably the better choice) or Roy down, or both
- Squirtle might be much better than you listed him, especially after the 3.5 nerfwave
- Jiggs should be as bad as fatties
- I disagree with a few other things by a few positions, however I can't be sure on these and I will probably wait until it gets more clear

Every version : A rough good/bad description first, later categorizing in several tiers, and as you are about to fix definite position the next patch is there (which is good imo, but still it is somehow the fate of every PM tier list speculation)

 

[The_NZA]

I like your list at some points, however I think:
- Roy is at best a bit better than Marth. Either move Marth up (probably the better choice) or Roy down, or both
- Squirtle might be much better than you listed him, especially after the 3.5 nerfwave
- Jiggs should be as bad as fatties
- I disagree with a few other things by a few positions, however I can't be sure on these and I will probably wait until it gets more clear

Every version : A rough good/bad description first, later categorizing in several tiers, and as you are about to fix definite position the next patch is there (which is good imo, but still it is somehow the fate of every PM tier list speculation)

I think he hella underrates DK but that's okay...most people don't have Poob in their region.

 

[Boiko]

I think he hella underrates DK but that's okay...most people don't have Poob in their region.

Oh you mean KoreanDK? He's money matching Eli at my tournament. :x

 

[Mischief]

I'm sorry, why has no one even started to consider snake top tier? Prof has consistently placed in high level PM tournaments with the character, almost won Beast V, and I know plenty of regions that have fairly dominate snakes. Edge guards and option coverage with the character are ridiculous so he doesn't have trouble with the spacies matchup, Up B out of shield saves him against a variety of pressure while at the same time cancelling into its own psuedo form of pressure with Up b ariel strings, he has a chain grab on fast fallers between 25-60%, he is hard as hell to kill as he can save himself offstage with a C4 or a grenade, and can cover his landings with wavebounce grenades super easily, and can combo almost the entire cast into a kill at a very low percent. He struggles a bit with the super floaties of PM but even then those matchups aren't that bad if you play slow and control space with his wide variety of explosives.

Snake mid tier? Naw b

 

[Deleted member]

I've heard, at different times, the following characters being somewhat good against Fox (in no particular order):

1. Marth (don't see it)
2. Ike
3. Mewtwo
4. Kirby
5. Dedede
6. Samus
7. Mario
8. Metaknight
9. Pit/lucas (put these together because it was certainly said in 3.02. I doubt its true anymore).

I don't know any more. Any thoughts?

EDIT:

Also, why would the Marth/Fox matchup be any different? Is it because stage selection having more flat stages with less top platforms? Is it the ability to reverse upb ledge grab now?

Where the hell is roy on this list?!?

 

[DMG]

Where the hell is roy on this list?!?

Roy beats everyone. It's just assumed no one can handle phir3 swordz

 

[The_NZA]

I'm sorry, why has no one even started to consider snake top tier? Prof has consistently placed in high level PM tournaments with the character, almost won Beast V, and I know plenty of regions that have fairly dominate snakes. Edge guards and option coverage with the character are ridiculous so he doesn't have trouble with the spacies matchup, Up B out of shield saves him against a variety of pressure while at the same time cancelling into its own psuedo form of pressure with Up b ariel strings, he has a chain grab on fast fallers between 25-60%, he is hard as hell to kill as he can save himself offstage with a C4 or a grenade, and can cover his landings with wavebounce grenades super easily, and can combo almost the entire cast into a kill at a very low percent. He struggles a bit with the super floaties of PM but even then those matchups aren't that bad if you play slow and control space with his wide variety of explosives.

Snake mid tier? Naw b

Snake's been top tier for two patches. But much like Voldemort, Snake is "he who can't be named".

*tranqs you, c4s you, uthrow uairs and kills you out of topic at 60%*

 

[didds]

Yoshi's punish game on fox is amazing, and things like pivot grab and baiting dbj aerials can help against an aggressive fox, but as soon as it's a solid, campy fox, you come to realize that Yoshi's neutral game vs him is an illusion and little more than "rather tricky"

He still relies on a hard read to get things started for the most part, so fox can kind of just laser laser usmash/platform bair camp his way through the mu. It's honestly still one of Yoshi's hardest mu's imo, and dropping a combo against him brings out the sadness.

edit: he's still got stuff like waveland shenanigans, but this is fairly linear and though it adds an option, fox is just slippin if he didn't take the platform into account, especially since fox should usually be camping it.

maybe things would be different if yoshi had a giant hammer to space with, but until then he's stuck going for grab reads and flailing his stupid hurtbox of a tail in an attempt to call out a bad jump on fox's part

 

[DMG]

Yes, Snake the top tier. The one that most people weren't sure if he could manage to beat Marth or Sheik. What a fantastic character.

 

[Player -0]

Marth makes a lot of characters cry.

 

[Mean Green]

Roy is at best a bit better than Marth. Either move Marth up (probably the better choice) or Roy down, or both

Just curious why?

 

[Deleted member]

Roy is better than marth because of his ability to convert better off of things that aren't his grab (Basically D tilt, some tipper stuff as well) and his ability to consistently kill, unlike marth. Marth without his grab can't really do nearly as much, along with suffering heavily from marth syndrome in this game.

 

[Mean Green]

I meant why he feels "Roy is [only] at best a bit better than Marth" and why Marth should be moved up.

 

[Deleted member]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:


This isn't actually in any order btw, just categories. I am not nearly confident enough yet to number off each character from 1 to 41.

Ehh, this is my list for now. Definitely not perfect, could argue on some things . My top 10 has shifted around as well, such as I don't think Ike and ZSS are top 10 anymore. They're still really good though.

I went ahead and put low and bottom tier into one, since they're pretty similar tbh. Both of the mid tiers are also a little bit weird, its a giant cluster ****.

 

[shairn]

@ Soft Serve your argument for Shielda is silly. What you're talking about is not Shielda but Sheik and Zelda. Pick Zelda if Zelda is better for the matchup, pick Sheik if Sheik is better for the matchup. There is no reason to switch between either mid-match save for recovering further as Sheik. Sheilda refers to this very transforming mid-match as some sort of mind game or what have you, but frankly if you,re already using the best character for the matchup between the two there shouldn't be any reason why you would want to lessen your chances of winning by transforming. Sheik > Zelda > Sheilda.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm sure Prof. Pro is just a really good player and snake is mid tier character. Yeah, has a good punish game. Slow as **** and loses to camping/shields.

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:


Ehh, this is my list for now. Definitely not perfect, could argue on some things . My top 10 has shifted around as well, such as I don't think Ike and ZSS are top 10 anymore. They're still really good though.

I went ahead and put low and bottom tier into one, since they're pretty similar tbh. Both of the mid tiers are also a little bit weird, its a giant cluster ****.

Why Falco first? My only really big question.

 

[Deleted member]

It's just in categories. It's not in an actual order.

I'll fix it to put fox though, because fox is fox

 

[Soft Serve]

@ Soft Serve your argument for Shielda is silly. What you're talking about is not Shielda but Sheik and Zelda. Pick Zelda if Zelda is better for the matchup, pick Sheik if Sheik is better for the matchup. There is no reason to switch between either mid-match save for recovering further as Sheik. Sheilda refers to this very transforming mid-match as some sort of mind game or what have you, but frankly if you,re already using the best character for the matchup between the two there shouldn't be any reason why you would want to lessen your chances of winning by transforming. Sheik > Zelda > Sheilda.

Being able to switch between the two mid game makes all the difference. You win the CP game because you can stay your character and THEN choose to switch once the game starts. Being able to have access to both MU spreads in game is what makes the huge difference from just having dual mains that cover their MU's well.

Hypothetical example: Player 1 is a sheik/zelda dual main. Wins game 1 on FD vs some character. Bans, then Player 2 picks a stage that Zelda does better on in that MU. Instead of having to declare a character switch and be potentially counterpicked by Player 2's choice, Player 1 says "I'm staying sheik" then switches to zelda at his first convenience in game. Yes, you just play the two MU spread individually, but the ability to pick the MU after bans and CP makes Sheilda strictly better than just sheik.

Edit: Sheilda vs Shiek and Zelda is a legit complaint though.

 

[shairn]

Yeah that's not really Sheilda, that's just abusing the CP system. I'm really interested in the kind of situation that you would want to switch to Zelda at the beginning of the match though. Though you say that, is there a stage where you would rather be Zelda than Sheik? Is there a matchup where you would rather be Zelda than Sheik? I guess ICs and Jiggs, but they aren't exactly as common as they are in Melee, where they weren't common to begin with. I just don't think it's notable enough to make a difference.

 

[TreK]

the best counter to fox is up throw

-Up Throw Now a bulb attack that Heals / Charges 3%. Now has an outer hit-box that hits non-thrown opponents for 5%. Release frame 14 -> 19. DMG 10 -> 6. Angle 100 -> 90. BKB 70 -> 50. KBG 61 -> 120. IASA 28 -> 43

Well, FML.

 

[Soft Serve]

Thats why I didn't count the combined as being part of the top 5, and stuck it in brackets right in front of sheik. Zelda does better vs ICs in Melee, and without wobbling that should be even bigger difference in PM. I'm not certain about many other specific MU's, but there is definitely at least ICs, so I think putting at least a reminder that shiek/zelda can abuse the CP system is fair. I think Zelda does better vs Diddy than Sheik does, but I only think this from Diddy's perspective and don't have a lot of opinions on zelda's other MU's.

Well, FML.

Can spacies DI Ivy's upthrow up/behind and shine Ivy before the throw endlag/animation is over at low %'s as well? I really hope its only a diddy problem.

 

[TreK]

Can spacies DI Ivy's upthrow up/behind and shine Ivy before the throw endlag/animation is over at low %'s as well? I really hope its only a diddy problem.

Well, FYL.
Nah Ivy doesn't have it that bad lmao.

 

[Rizner]

Being able to abuse the cp system does help. Going Zelda vs a Ness then switching to sheik when they pull out a pocket fox is great. I need to get better with sheik lol

 

[Beorn]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low/Bottom tier:
steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:


This isn't actually in any order btw, just categories. I am not nearly confident enough yet to number off each character from 1 to 41.

Ehh, this is my list for now. Definitely not perfect, could argue on some things . My top 10 has shifted around as well, such as I don't think Ike and ZSS are top 10 anymore. They're still really good though.

I went ahead and put low and bottom tier into one, since they're pretty similar tbh. Both of the mid tiers are also a little bit weird, its a giant cluster ****.

I like this list a lot. I would move marth to high tier, peach and snake to upper mid tier, and ivysaur and pit to lower mid tier, but that's just me. I think snakes projectiles, kill options, and recovery put him into upper mid tier. I honestly can't imagine pit being that bad now. To go from like top 10 to bottom 10. He got nerfed less than a good few characters. IDK

 

[Deleted member]

I actually like those changes you suggested, if I update my list again I'll probably add them.

 

[Professor Pro]

Snake is top tier again

 

[Mischief]

^ Not sure if kappa

 

[POOB]

I love seeing DK as low tier in all these lists. Makes me feel like I'm good or something

 

[Deleted member]

DK sucks

you suck

rekt

 

[POOB]

At least I don't lose to random ROBs

 

[Ripple]

us low tier heros gotta stick together, poob.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh yeah dude I suck

I lose 35-65 MUs and then 3-0 sethlon in roy dittos. I'm soooooooo bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

steelguttey and robosteven aren't the same person tier?!?:

I know, right? Jesus Christ

 

[Deleted member]

LOL dude I lost my **** when I realized they weren't the same person

 

[POOB]

Speaking of that @ Ripple , are there any matchups for D3 where it would be worth pulling out the DK?

 

[Frost | Odds]

So if pretty much everyone agrees that Bowser is the mayor of Crap City, surely he'll get more buffs next patch?

Right, guys?

Right?

 

[JOE!]

Mayor? So haggar dash attack and side b lariat for bowser from the air huh? Sounds good.

Also wtf happened to his fireball?