Tier List Speculation

[iPunchKidsz]

Lol "Lucarios shield pressure is stronger than spacies"

 

[iPunchKidsz]

Im really tired right now but ill comment my thoughts on this later.

 

[Juushichi]

Since when has Falcon lost to Charizard?

 

[Rongunshu]

Since when has Falcon lost to Charizard?

Two words: The ledge.

 

[Foo]

Since when has Falcon lost to Charizard?

Third word: Jab

Charizard jab beats literally every move falcon has. Only thing falcon can do in the matchup is dash dance punish and get good combos. It's not a terrible matchup, but charizard definitely wins it. It's like a harder version of the marth matchup imo

 

[Jacob29]

Err.. Don't you get hit by lucarios side-b aura thing if you spotdodge it?

Or is that just a case of Bowsers spotdodge sucking real bad/poor timing/both

 

[DMG]

Falcon vs Zard: it was very likely that Falcon lost this MU in prior patches. There were too many janky things Zard could do to ruin your fun. Like if Zard skid on the ground after he CC'd a Knee, he could almost always live by canceling momentum into glide. Holding down (as Zard) was a pain cause Zard could randomly also decide to toss out Jab, Usmash, Ftilt, or his own meaty grab and beat 90% of Falcon options without trying too hard. If you assume that Zard "had" to play some kind of neutral and DD or space around, it just so happens that he runs really fast and has big meaty moves, with a great grab range and Dthrow tech chase against some of the worst tech options the game has to offer. You can probably find videos of Zard Dsmash covering 90% of tech options without trying vs characters like MK and Falcon.


With the consistent nerfs (or changes, since some attack KB angles might favor FF and heavies that fight Zard more than floaties etc) Zard has gotten, Falcon can probably compete and even earn an edge on some stages. It might turn out to still be hard or evenish for Falcon, but it used to be a really silly MU where the definition of "you must outplay your opponent to win" could not apply more clearly if they understood just like 60% of what to actually do in the MU. Zard held down, but didn't really lose any options vs Falcon and got to live forever? Yeah sign me up for the Cheese Capital of the world, Gouda-Ville Italy cause Zard's about to go Nacho again.

 

[Deleted member]

I think you/people who say he has a good neutral are the ones that don't understand the character and as a by-product don't play optimally vs him which leads to over-rating.

honestly lucario's dashdance is pretty good. basing his neutral around DD use and splicing in uncharged AS, down b, pretty good non-grab conversions out of DD for the DD mirror, a respectable grab, and a good crouch weight are pretty much all the tools that make a good neutral. we can't all be fox.

 

[DMG]

If Lucario was slow or something, I mean I'd get these statements about a poor neutral. But like, I'd rather be Lucario over quite a few character's so called "neutrals".

Then again, I could just play Falcon and enjoy this patch for how beautiful it is

 

[Deleted member]

well, i wouldnt say his ground speed is fast per se, but there are many many things that go into having a good dashdance. on the whole though i would say it's pretty good.

 

[Soft Serve]

I really wish I knew how iPunchKids feels about it...i feel he's the only person who really exemplifies good Lucario neutral, outside of KhanYe East (who isn't the full package yet, but man is his neutral game mean).

Bad neutral to me is Ness. Bad neutral to me is maybe game n watch. Lucario doesn't even begin to embody what I would consider "bad neutral".

IPK used to John about lucario alot, socal hated it loll

Don't know his opinions on lucario neutral as of now though

 

[JOE!]

Does having a 1 frame move just instantly make you top tier?

 

[DMG]

Frame 1 moves makes you a buster if you main that character. Tru fax

 

[Foo]

Does having a 1 frame move just instantly make you top tier?

ZSS has a frame one jab, but holy !@#$ is it impossible to find an image of her looking sad, angry, disappointed or ANYTHING other than stoic, sexy, or.... I don't wanna talk about it. I tried searching a bunch of things, and zero suit samus disappointed was one of them, and..

OH GOD WHY?!

 

[mimgrim]

Since when does Ganon have a move with a frame 1 hitbox? Even looking at his frame data thread I don't see a move with a hitbox out on frame 1.

 

[Foo]

Since when does Ganon have a move with a frame 1 hitbox? Even looking at his frame data thread I don't see a move with a hitbox out on frame 1.

Damn, someone told me his jab was frame 1 a while ago and I just believe them. Whoops. Fixed

 

[Jacob29]

Oh my god if that jab was frame 1.

 

[GMaster171]

ZSS doesn't have a f1 jab anyway, all f1 jabs were pushed back to at least frame 2

 

[Foo]

ZSS doesn't have a f1 jab anyway, all f1 jabs were pushed back to at least frame 2

Really? Are you sure it isn't the physics delay? On the zss frame data thread, it's listed as frame 2, but I thought that was just because of the 1 frame physics delay. Blaster is listed as frame 21 on the frame data for 3.0, but in 3.5 the patch notes said it was changed from frame 20 to 16. That makes me think that all moves were listed 1 frame later due to the physics delay

 

[Jacob29]

The physics delay doesn't affect things like that at all.

 

[GMaster171]

Physics delay doesn't do anything to moves, only movement. It basically makes it so when you jump/airdodge/whatever, you are stuck for 1 frame before you start moving.

Jabs being frame 2 is intentional.

 

[Foo]

Physics delay doesn't do anything to moves, only movement. It basically makes it so when you jump/airdodge/whatever, you are stuck for 1 frame before you start moving.

Jabs being frame 2 is intentional.

huh. Then why was the blaster 1 frame off?

P.S. I'm really making an ass of myself here lawl. I wish there was a good wiki for PM where I could find all this stuff really easily, like league.

 

[GMaster171]

I don't know why it would be off, perhaps an error reading from BrawlBox?

 

[Jacob29]

Someone made a mistake. Or the tool used showed different information. Or the frame data thread is outdated.

I don't want to point fingers but its definitely not due to any lag.

You aren't making an ass of yourself. Nobody expects you to know all the frame data and the brawl 1 frame delay has been hugely blown up by people (obv not recently or on purpose) and a lot of misinformation is going around

 

[jtm94]

Ivysaurs jab is frame 1 or 2 in PM. Almost broken.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Does having a 1 frame move just instantly make you top tier?

Short answer, no. 1f actives make things harder to hit with.

 

[didds]

It's true, I find it almost impossible to land shines, but I can hit falcon punches all day.
much easier.

 

[shairn]

Short answer, no. 1f actives make things harder to hit with.

I think there's some confusion; we're talking about moves who have a hitbox on frame 1, not moves who only have a hitbox on one frame.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I think there's some confusion; we're talking about moves who have a hitbox on frame 1, not moves who only have a hitbox on one frame.

Oh okay, but how many characters have a move with such a property, outside of the obvious animals we love?

 

[shairn]

Oh okay, but how many characters have a move with such a property, outside of the obvious animals we love?

Jiggs, G&W, as far as I know.

 

[didds]

aw shoot, does this mean I'm being a sarcastic jerk for no reason? sorry boards

 

[Bazkip]

Reasons for top tier:
+Recovery is ok (better than melay so its good?)

Objections:
-Poor recovery. Like, really poor. Like "underneath the freeway scrounging for scraps of garbage to serve as insulation for his cardboard box house" poor. Possibly worse than Olimar.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

 

[supascoot]

You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

Even then, I'd say falcon has gotta be in the bottom 5 recoveries in the game. Saying that its ok is an overstatement when all you do is grab ledge and use any aerial to stop it. If you want to post a reason for falcon being top tier, a good recovery is 100% not what I would say

 

[PootisKonga]

If he's decently above the stage his recovery is mostly fine

 

[InfinityCollision]

How many characters' recoveries aren't "mostly fine" or better if they're "decently above the stage"?

 

[The_NZA]

Even then, I'd say falcon has gotta be in the bottom 5 recoveries in the game. Saying that its ok is an overstatement when all you do is grab ledge and use any aerial to stop it. If you want to post a reason for falcon being top tier, a good recovery is 100% not what I would say

He's the heaviest fast faller. That means he has immunity to ceiling kills, and anything that sends him at the sakurai angle wont be shooting him through the ceiling anytime soon. On top of that, the dude can spike you on the way back to the stage if you make a mistake. He can afford to get hit a few times on his way back because he's not going to be dieing off the side too easy. Once his damage scales, he unlocks his down b recovery which offers him some mixups. It's not great but it isn't terrible either. Sheik has it worse, for example.

 

[Soft Serve]

How many characters' recoveries aren't "mostly fine" or better if they're "decently above the stage"?

Characters that have to recover low as the only option, so poor olimar/ivy. I guess mario has to too, but he has 7 iframes so he doesn't count

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm actually a little surprised steelguttey didn't say it first. Olimar was the first character I thought of too, and Ivy's is similarly problematic.

Would probably point to a Luigi without stored misfire before looking at Mario, Mario has iframes like you mentioned and he's got enough mixups to keep it interesting. Granted it's still pretty bad even with a misfire...

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mario's up-b also has oodles of priority, a few angle options, and enough knockback to not be punished on hit before an edgegrab even if he up-b's high. Luigi, none of those

 

[steelguttey]

olimar's recovery is so bad i dont even have to whine about it anymore.

i think they should give more mixups to special tethers like giving different options of jumping of the ledge.