Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

I agree that Zard has a lot of good moves. But they all have large commitments (except max range nairs/fairs). While he has a great Dash-dance, he doesn't have, say, a marth d-tilt with good IASA frames to make it safe. What I think he has going for him the most is a great DD grab game, although I dont know the hitboxes on his grab. Up-smash OoS will only work if the opponent horribly mis-spaces an aerial or does something un-safe. The earliest hitbox possible done OoS(adding one frame of jump-suat) is on frame 8, and then frame 9 for one that actually has reach above him. So the move has to be -9 or more on shield and poorly spaced. Its a better anti-air. He's still combo food for days and his recovery is slow.

Up B OoS hits on frame 5 (accounting for jumpsquat), and is invincible

Nair OoS hits on frame 6, and has massive disjoint

 

[Player -0]

Speaking of Snake am I the only one distressed that Snake's Up Throw CG's at low percents and kills (by itself) around Marth's Up Throw kill percent? Not accounting for C4, which Snake gets "for free" from the CG?

 

[jtm94]

Speaking of Snake am I the only one distressed that Snake's Up Throw CG's at low percents and kills (by itself) around Marth's Up Throw kill percent? Not accounting for C4, which Snake gets "for free" from the CG?

It concerns me that Snake has such early KOs off of C4 and there is usually no way to play around it. It's like if Fox could plant a shine on someone and just throw them offstage and release the shine. Clearly exaggeration, but I don't like that there is no way to avoid Snake's setups like landmines without a projectile that hits the ground, or a large disjoint and once C4 is on you it is pretty much curtains at a very low % off upthrow, or uair, or upthrow uair at like 40.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I read that, but that's the thing Wolf and Fox aren't equivalent.

Wolf's mobility isn't FAR better than Falco's, he's just a bit faster their mobility options are basically the same. A small increase in speed doesn't cause his mobility to instantly become FAR better. Yeah it's better but don't act like Falco's mobility is trash. Fox's mobility is FAR better than Falco's not Wolf's. Wolf's recovery is about the only valid argument made.

I know what Wolf's blaster function is and I know it's not better than Falco's. -__-

A projectile that travels completely across screen accomplishes nothing? I'm not saying camp and use fullscreen lasers all day. What I'm saying is since Falco's lasers travel fullscreen with hitstun, he effectively has pressure being applied at ANY position in the match. In addition to the mobility problem you mentioned earlier, Falco's lasers are so good that his dash speed doesn't effect him because that's not how he plays. While Wolf is dash dancing trying to mix things up, Falco is simply shooting lasers. He doesn't travel large distances without jumping it's his main form of movement. A good Falco isn't going to dash all game. Wolf can act quickly out of his laser, but you're saying that as if Falco can't himself. Wolf's pressure comes from inside he can't retreat if needed and apply any form of pressure, simply because his laser doesn't travel far or fast enough. Falco's lasers eat DJs offstage and can quickly set-up into Dairs. Also Wolf's laser can't completely halt a character's ground mobility like Falco's can. You have to stop and ask yourself the question: "Which laser has more utility?" A slow moving, range deficient set up projectile? Or a range effective, fast moving, all purpose lockdown projectile. Really....just a testament to how great Falco's lasers are, he can play mind games (if wanted) with short hops regularly. Your projectile has to be incredibly good to cause an opponent to have to shield damn near every time you leave the ground.

 

[ELI-mination]

It concerns me that Snake has such early KOs off of C4 and there is usually no way to play around it. It's like if Fox could plant a shine on someone and just throw them offstage and release the shine. Clearly exaggeration, but I don't like that there is no way to avoid Snake's setups like landmines without a projectile that hits the ground, or a large disjoint and once C4 is on you it is pretty much curtains at a very low % off upthrow, or uair, or upthrow uair at like 40.

LOL don't worry Fox doesn't have to plant a shine on you and then detonate, his job is far easier than that. He just runs really fast and shines you in the face when you're offstage and you die.

Don't worry he'll make it back with his "bad recovery" too.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu is still pretty bad though. Using Quick Attack Cancel he can do some derp stuff + recovery is fast, but he can't go in like other characters can. He gets some uair juggles I guess, and the tail spike is still sort of potent at the edge, but Pika feels so underwhelming. It is probably the contrast with the other characters that does it honestly, just like how I find Lucario to be purely terrible, but I feel obligated to view him as a good character because he has an incredibly high tech skill ceiling that makes every move safe on shield and can crush opponents. I also feel similarly about Puff, where I honestly think she's pretty terrible in here, but the fact that she has rest boosts her potential ten fold.

Pikachu can't go in? Give me break, Pikachu gets it in deeeeeeeep. Can you please explain your views on Pikachu further please? Because I still don't understand how you can think a character with so much can be bad.

 

[Zx2963]

Pikachu can't go in? Give me break, Pikachu gets it in deeeeeeeep. Can you please explain your views on Pikachu further please? Because I still don't understand how you can think a character with so much can be bad.

Maybe he hasn't watched this:

 

[didds]

Awesome video, but no one is gonna take this seriously in a PM discussion thread.

 

[Zx2963]

Awesome video, but no one is gonna take this seriously in a PM discussion thread.

They should considering Pikachu is even BETTER in PM

 

[didds]

They should considering Pikachu is even BETTER in PM

Yea, and Pikachu still does well against fox. But there also like, ya know, more than 30 other characters that also improved.
Many of them floaties who Pikachu can't slap around and gimp like it's nothing the way he does to fox.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yea, and Pikachu still does well against fox. But there also like, ya know, more than 30 other characters that also improved.
Many of them floaties who Pikachu can't slap around and gimp like it's nothing the way he does to fox.

Pikachu faster then them tho.

Pika gets in on Samus? She dead at 70.

Pike get in on Zelda? Dead at 70.

Pika get in on Squirtle? Dead at 70.

Everyone dies at 70 XD

 

[didds]

tbh I'm not of the impression that Pika is bad or anything, just that the video chosen to display a "pika not bad" point wasn't the best.

 

[Phan7om]

Yeah and Bowser's F-smash kills at like 50... it really doesnt mean anything

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yeah and Bowser's F-smash kills at like 50... it really doesnt mean anything

But does Bowser go in on anyone? Or is tiny, really fast and hard to hit? Or has great escape options and a hit and run game second to Mewtwo's? Nope. Pikachu does.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pikachu is just a crappy fox

 

[Player -0]

Jigglypuff is just a crappy Kirby. I think that's pretty reasonable.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Pikachu is just a crappy fox

dumb or trolling? or am I just offended

anyways bowser is crappy period lololo

 

[didds]

Please trolling, both having a good shffl and strong usmash is not enough to justify that comparison.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu is just a crappy fox

yea and Ness is a worse Lucas, Lucario is a worse mew2, Rob is a worse Samus, and Obama is a worse Michael Jordan.

If you really wanted to you could say every character is a worse Fox, I mean they all got nairs and upsmashes right?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Falco is a worse Fox.

Mew2King: Fox is a worse Falco, Falco top tier cuz I john about PP and Mango wrecking me as him

 

[Frost | Odds]

dumb or trolling? or am I just offended

yes

Anyway, the comparison isn't that far fetched - mostly because all Pikachu has is a good SHFFL game and a great upsmash. He's one of my favorite characters to watch, but he's just pretty mediocre.

 

[victinivcreate1]

yes

Anyway, the comparison isn't that far fetched - mostly because all Pikachu has is a good SHFFL game and a great upsmash. He's one of my favorite characters to watch, but he's just pretty mediocre.

So QAC is a mediocre technique?

Jesus so many people sleep on Pikachu!

 

[Frost | Odds]

In theory it's amazing -- maybe it'll make Pikachu top tier once some people actually master it, but probably not. Even ESAM, a master of the QAC (iirc), seems to go out of his way not to play Pikachu.

 

[victinivcreate1]

In theory it's amazing -- maybe it'll make Pikachu top tier once some people actually master it, but probably not. Even ESAM, a master of the QAC (iirc), seems to go out of his way not to play Pikachu.

ESAM went Pikachu on Emukiller and actually had an impressive lead. But he SD'd like twice. A free Emukiller win.

 

[Paradoxium]

In theory it's amazing -- maybe it'll make Pikachu top tier once some people actually master it, but probably not. Even ESAM, a master of the QAC (iirc), seems to go out of his way not to play Pikachu.

Anther is the true master of QaC

 

[Circle_Breaker]

yes

Anyway, the comparison isn't that far fetched - mostly because all Pikachu has is a good SHFFL game and a great upsmash. He's one of my favorite characters to watch, but he's just pretty mediocre.

I mean I agree with him needing buffs so I guess I should shut up.

 

[Paradoxium]

I want Pikachu to have a better grab range, and I want his upthrow and down throw to be exactly like they were in melee

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Frost | Odds
Put it like this. You were johning about Mewtwo a few days ago.

Pikachu is already pretty good. A few more buffs and you may be johning again.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

@ Frost | Odds
Put it like this. You were johning about Mewtwo a few days ago.

Pikachu is already pretty good. A few more buffs and you may be johning again.

yeah what if they give pika action out of QA, hover cancels, hover out of QA, and 3x larger tail hitboxes... and a spammier projectile?
then he might be too good

 

[Frost | Odds]

You agree that the character is broken. Pointing this out is hardly "johning"

I can't imagine how they could possibly make Pikachu more frustrating to play against than M2 currently is. At best, he'll wind up like another Fox -- which, frankly, I can deal with.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

the whole thunder hitbox should come out in 1 frame and be jump cancellable imo

edit: oh oh and SHDTJ (thunder jolt)

 

[didds]

please again explain how Pikachu is or will end up being another fox?
I can't see the similarities beyond weak nair to usmash combos, dd to usmash, and shffl cross ups.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Odds's Less Stupid Tier List (tm) (all rights reserved) (now a major motion picture)

idk how to make these face-emote-things, so i'mma just c/p them from Soft's post - which had some major problems but seemed largely on the right track. Within a tier, it's mostly in order, but some things will probably slip my mind. Didn't put in a hell of a lot of effort here, but I think it's close-ish.


Totally Not Mid Tier:

Unholy Messiah Tier:

Fox Lucas Tier:

Some Extremely Stupid Matchups But Not Completely Broken Tier:

Goldilocks Tier:

Needs Fresh Paint Tier:

Situationally Viable Tier:

Jesus Why Are You So Bad Tier:

RIP Tier:

@Lunchables Tier (aka real bottom 5):

edit: pardon the ninja edits. I think it's better now.

inb4 the massive amount of trolling re: Ivy.

I think Falco is still insanely good, but the overwhelming majority of Falco players don't know PM's matchups yet. Fox made the transition better b/c his upsmash and shine spike remain extremely strong kill moves vs most of the cast.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Up B OoS hits on frame 5 (accounting for jumpsquat), and is invincible

Nair OoS hits on frame 6, and has massive disjoint

Nair hits on frame 4 (I think), are you accounting for his jumpsquat there, which I think is 5? OoS it couldn't earlier than 9 assuming those are both right.
Up-b hits frame 4? Up-b OoS requires you be in jump squat for at least one frame, adding onto the existing start-up of the move. that doesn't sound right since most other good up-bs OoS hit frame 5+1 jumpsquat frame or later

 

[JOE!]

Nair hits on frame 5, and Zard has a 4 frame jumpsquat, was off on that.

Up B on the ground hits on frame 4

 

[FreeGamer]

>Kirby low tier

O RLY?

 

[Frost | Odds]

>Kirby low tier

O RLY?

He seems to only be good against people who have no idea how to play against Kirby. I hope I'm wrong, but I've had waaaaaay more success with pretty much everyone else I've tried to play. He just has such a hard time getting in against disjoint/projectiles, and finishing people in general.

He's pretty much a worse/slower Wario, and Wario kinda sucks already.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Odds's Less Stupid Tier List (tm) (all rights reserved) (now a major motion picture)

idk how to make these face-emote-things, so i'mma just c/p them from Soft's post - which had some major problems but seemed largely on the right track. Within a tier, it's mostly in order, but some things will probably slip my mind. Didn't put in a hell of a lot of effort here, but I think it's close-ish.


Totally Not Mid Tier:

Unholy Messiah Tier:

Fox Lucas Tier:

Some Extremely Stupid Matchups But Not Completely Broken Tier:

Goldilocks Tier:

Needs Fresh Paint Tier:

Situationally Viable Tier:

Jesus Why Are You So Bad Tier:

RIP Tier:

@Lunchables Tier (aka real bottom 5):

edit: pardon the ninja edits. I think it's better now.

inb4 the massive amount of trolling re: Ivy.

I think Falco is still insanely good, but the overwhelming majority of Falco players don't know PM's matchups yet. Fox made the transition better b/c his upsmash and shine spike remain extremely strong kill moves vs most of the cast.

fraudulent

 

[didds]

How is Kirby a worse wario?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's just a really loose point of reference. Both are slow, floaty characters that kinda alternate between spacing and weaving depending on what aerial they're using. Both have great command grabs on nB. Both really struggle against disjoint and projectiles (ie. marth, link, m2, etc) and strong vertical KO games (fox, pika). Kinda similar MU spreads IMO, but Wario has a way easier time finishing kills on a lot of characters.