Tier List Speculation

[Soft Serve]

Wow this thread turned to ****

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

Wow this thread turned to ****

Law of Tierlist Spec Threads: Rustle enough jimmies and you'll end up with everyone at your throat.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Wow this thread turned to ****

This post is very insightful - plus, it addresses the very issues it illuminates. Keep up the good work!

 

[AstraEDM]

Dankey Kang falls into the "no neutral but hard punishes" club, offset by the fact that he's fat and easy to combo but deathtouches several characters. Probably pretty mid imo

 

[Soft Serve]

This post is very insightful - plus, it addresses the very issues it illuminates. Keep up the good work!

Its about as good as most of the last few pages. Its not like over half of the good discussion here gets ignored / derailed to begin with.

No need for the passive aggression man.

Ill be posting another tier list later tonight.

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

This post is very insightful - plus, it addresses the very issues it illuminates. Keep up the good work!

Aw yes the **** post **** post. At this rate the ****posting will emulate the Ackermann function given enough time.

Back onto the point. PMBR needs to start whittling down characters. Recoveries, hitboxes and whatnot. DOTO Style

 

[trash?]

I've been thinking about something: does having a high punish game matter much anymore?

I mean, look at the top tiers. basically all of them have great punish games, but they also have something that adds more than just that. mewtwo can just refuse to commit to anything and still get options, lucas can pop off your shield like it's nothing, meta knight can stretch incredibly hard off-stage without much fear, fox can just flow between offensive and defensive...

meanwhile, donkey kong and lucario also have great punish games... but not much else. DK's in an even worse position, too, because he has horrible recovery and a massive hurtbox to top it all off. it's not really an advantage to punish and combo well, it's just expected of any character that matters now.

even kirby's got a punish game. like, full-on, chaingrabs and all. that says something

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

I've been thinking about something: does having a high punish game matter much anymore?

Not really.
Punish game is the core viability of any character.

 

[Zoa]

Law of Tierlist Spec Threads: Rustle enough jimmies and you'll end up with everyone at your throat.

No. This thread is **** in general.

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

No. This thread is **** in general.

I don't know what people expect. There aren't thread guidelines and with PM's nerf history its an easy place to drum up support for nerf war calls.

 

[Zoa]

I don't know what people expect. There aren't thread guidelines and with PM's nerf history its an easy place to drum up support for nerf war calls.

Not just that. From the 100+ pages I've lurked, it's just **** in general.

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

Not just that. From the 100+ pages I've lurked, it's just **** in general.

Well you're welcome to make your own thread with blackjack and hookers if you feel it'd be more constructive.

 

[Zoa]

Well you're welcome to make your own thread with blackjack and hookers if you feel it'd be more constructive.

That actually sounds awesome.

 

[AstraEDM]

I've been thinking about something: does having a high punish game matter much anymore?

I mean, look at the top tiers. basically all of them have great punish games, but they also have something that adds more than just that. mewtwo can just refuse to commit to anything and still get options, lucas can pop off your shield like it's nothing, meta knight can stretch incredibly hard off-stage without much fear, fox can just flow between offensive and defensive...

meanwhile, donkey kong and lucario also have great punish games... but not much else. DK's in an even worse position, too, because he has horrible recovery and a massive hurtbox to top it all off. it's not really an advantage to punish and combo well, it's just expected of any character that matters now.

even kirby's got a punish game. like, full-on, chaingrabs and all. that says something

this is a really interesting point actually
as tiers get closer and closer together with characters having good punish options and nobody having as high a gap relative to melee/brawl low/bottom tiers, overall goodness discussion is going to be skewed more and more in terms of how good their neutral and keep away games are, to exploit the weakness of the other characters shafted by a lack of an amazing neutral

 

[Circle_Breaker]

content injection :

CB's OfficiaL P:M 3.02 tears teirs List;

ss;
s
1/2s
a+
bcdefg
H
brawl tier;

teir compression of P:M an broken recoveries mean that these are all divisions of a theoretical A tier that everyone is in

 

[InfinityCollision]

Rob's not mid-tier, your list is clearly invalid.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

H is the mid tier though, you can tell by how ROB is there.

 

[Player -0]

H is the mid tier though, you can tell by how ROB is there.

But then your post is also invalid because is H Tier which is stated to be mid tier but is obviously low tier.







Also is there a compilation of changes through updates/patches to P:M?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

that's a mistake, was supposed to be right below

guys stop picking at it, the research was extensive and based on my own frame-perfect play. seriously.

 

[adPEXtwinDoNG]

my own frame-perfect play. seriously.

I didn't know M2K had a child. Hello M2Kid. Pls explain why Charizard is higher than Wario heuhuehuheeuh

 

[Osennecho]

4 Charizards are lower than Wario tho. Hmmmmm

 

[Bleck]

I've been thinking about something: does having a high punish game matter much anymore?

high punish game is generally code for 'is bad'

 

[Soft Serve]

Softie's scrubby tierlist v.3.02

Last time I made a list I wrote like 2000 words defending it/explaining everything. 2 lazy now lol

Assume groupings are basically equal in positioning.

I gave priority to MU spreads more than individual character ability. I also factor in neutral game prowess more than most other factors, because as Canon said a page ago everyone already has an obscene punish game, even if their character is barely developed. (Basically I dropped Lucario and GnW down a bit from where I had them before)

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I'd break the tier down more as characters get further developed. But for now, this is pretty much how I see the game right now. the large groupings are i guess a bit inaccurate, so most characters are liable to go up or down a grouping.

If you want justification on one character placing over another I'd be happy to explain.

 

[mimgrim]

I think you are sleeping on Charizard pretty freaking hard.

I also think you are sleeping on Roy, Zelda, and DDD some. Maybe Lucario as well.

Also, if you are going to include Sheilda then Sheilda needs to be ahead of Sheik, that's like obligatory.

 

[Thor]

^ This last line is true, Sheilda is strictly better than Sheik or Zelda alone, unless somehow someone's pressure game is so good you were worse off ever switching (say for recovery) than if you had never switched, but a top player should let that happen approximately never.

No comment on the other parts, true or false.

 

[AstraEDM]

I think he said all the tiers were approximately equal so maybe that's why shielda's in the same one as shiek?? but i'm also questioning wolf over link and ivy

 

[Chevy]

Well you're welcome to make your own thread with blackjack and hookers if you feel it'd be more constructive.

Maybe I will, you know what? Forget the thread! And the blackjack!

 

[Soft Serve]

I think you are sleeping on Charizard pretty freaking hard.

I also think you are sleeping on Roy, Zelda, and DDD some. Maybe Lucario as well.

Also, if you are going to include Sheilda then Sheilda needs to be ahead of Sheik, that's like obligatory.

Assume groupings are basically equal in positioning.

I think Zard is the best out of all the fatties. He has good reach, great mobility through a good dash dance,good vertical mobility (in bursts) and solid combos/edge guarding. He lacks a strong neutral imo, his recovery is lacking in safety and has no good defensive options. So I put him lower in a metagame full of offensive monsters and projectiles.
I play one of the Best DDD's all the time (heysuess). I don't think DDD is anything higher than mid-tier. Great gimping, range/disjoints, fantastic grab range/throws. Still lacks in neutral, his overall mobility is below average, and his burst mobility (waddle tossing) requres prior set-up.
Roy and lucario have amazing punish games and flexible (although short, for roy) recoveries. They also struggle in neutral. Lucario has no real safe means of forcing openings without using a charge for down-b approaches. Roy has a marth neutral game (which is good, in projectile-less MU's) and took better shffls for getting punished much harder.

Zelda's whole kit revolves around trying to get the opponent to fall into the same bad positions over and over again. which is what zoning characters should be doing, except Din's/Nayru's love aren't moves that are great at forcing these things. imo Zelda is a character that thrives from the opponent making mistakes and putting themself into the bad positioning, not zelda forcing it.

 

[Zx2963]

Finally someone puts Sonic top tier

 

[victinivcreate1]

I've been putting Sonic in top tier forever.

 

[mimgrim]

Charizard lacks a strong neutral sure but he doesn't have a bad one either. His mobility alone makes that the case, but he also has a good few moves he can use safely in neutral if properly spaced, Nair, Dtilt, Bair, and maybe Fair. And he does actually have some defensive options with some of them being good, Up Special OoS is really good on him as it has frames of invincibility on start-up along with his potent range to keep people out rather good.

but you don't even have DDD in mid tier, I''m guessing the tiers you have are top, high, upper mid, mid, lower mid, low, bottom. Which is why I said I felt you were sleeping on him some. Same goes for Roy, he is a solid mid tier at the least.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Softie's scrubby tierlist v.3.02

Last time I made a list I wrote like 2000 words defending it/explaining everything. 2 lazy now lol

Assume groupings are basically equal in positioning.

I gave priority to MU spreads more than individual character ability. I also factor in neutral game prowess more than most other factors, because as Canon said a page ago everyone already has an obscene punish game, even if their character is barely developed. (Basically I dropped Lucario and GnW down a bit from where I had them before)

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I'd break the tier down more as characters get further developed. But for now, this is pretty much how I see the game right now. the large groupings are i guess a bit inaccurate, so most characters are liable to go up or down a grouping.

If you want justification on one character placing over another I'd be happy to explain.

1. Why is Lucario so low? He lacks a good neutral yes, but he has projectiles, and a decent DD. Also, jab is not really commiting. And if they shield jab, well Lucario will work his magic.

2. Squirtle, you're sleeping on him

3. ZSS

4. Snake in the same tier as TOON LINK. Snake is wayy better than TL

5. Pikachu low tier

6. Sheik in high tier. She's not as good in PM. Mid tier material. Swap Sheik's position with Snake.

7. Wario in upper mid tier. Too high.

Everything else is agreeable.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, the 5th fastest character in the game with monstrous range+disjoint, incredible survival, ability to be anywhere on the -screen- let alone stage is def a Low tier character.

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, the 5th fastest character in the game with monstrous range+disjoint, incredible survival, ability to be anywhere on the -screen- let alone stage is def a Low tier character.

Monstrous disjoint?

Which character are you talking about?

 

[mimgrim]

Monstrous disjoint?

Which character are you talking about?

He's talking bout Charizard. Who does indeed have a ton of disjoints and a lot of them are pretty crazy.

 

[Phan7om]

Charizard is definitely slept on

 

[jtm94]

Reminding me of the scene from Finding Nemo with the freaking seagulls the way everyone says the same thing.
You would think PM characters are all mattresses.

Sheik is still at the very least high mid. Amazing character.

Pikachu is still pretty bad though. Using Quick Attack Cancel he can do some derp stuff + recovery is fast, but he can't go in like other characters can. He gets some uair juggles I guess, and the tail spike is still sort of potent at the edge, but Pika feels so underwhelming. It is probably the contrast with the other characters that does it honestly, just like how I find Lucario to be purely terrible, but I feel obligated to view him as a good character because he has an incredibly high tech skill ceiling that makes every move safe on shield and can crush opponents. I also feel similarly about Puff, where I honestly think she's pretty terrible in here, but the fact that she has rest boosts her potential ten fold.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

I can't agree with Wolf being above Falco or even more so Fox. His combo game can somewhat rival Falco's, but then he doesn't have his same degree of stage control because he lacks fullscreen lasers. Having obscene stage control is more important than a character's combo game. Especially when Falco has that exact stage control and an even better combo game than Wolf to begin with. Fox is just outright a better character than Wolf, I'm not even going to debate about that. That includes the MU chart and individual character ability. Wolf cannot have that much more positive match-ups than those two, that it would put him over Fox (even if it's by only a spot) and a tier above Falco. Snake is too low in that list for me. Sheik is too high, she isn't better than Fox, Falco, Wolf nor Lucas.

 

[Soft Serve]

Its like some people don't even read the post before arguing with it lol.

I specifically only numbered the tiers because I HATE the high tier low tier stigmas. people assume that because I'm not putting a character in top 15 they are bad. I don't think tourney viability falls off until between Ganon/IC's.

If people are "sleeping" on characters, then explain why that character is better than other cast members. Just saying "sleeping" without explanation or opinions isn't constructive lol.

Charizard lacks a strong neutral sure but he doesn't have a bad one either. His mobility alone makes that the case, but he also has a good few moves he can use safely in neutral if properly spaced, Nair, Dtilt, Bair, and maybe Fair. And he does actually have some defensive options with some of them being good, Up Special OoS is really good on him as it has frames of invincibility on start-up along with his potent range to keep people out rather good.

but you don't even have DDD in mid tier, I''m guessing the tiers you have are top, high, upper mid, mid, lower mid, low, bottom. Which is why I said I felt you were sleeping on him some. Same goes for Roy, he is a solid mid tier at the least.

I agree that Zard has a lot of good moves. But they all have large commitments (except max range nairs/fairs). While he has a great Dash-dance, he doesn't have, say, a marth d-tilt with good IASA frames to make it safe. What I think he has going for him the most is a great DD grab game, although I dont know the hitboxes on his grab. Up-smash OoS will only work if the opponent horribly mis-spaces an aerial or does something un-safe. The earliest hitbox possible done OoS(adding one frame of jump-suat) is on frame 8, and then frame 9 for one that actually has reach above him. So the move has to be -9 or more on shield and poorly spaced. Its a better anti-air. He's still combo food for days and his recovery is slow.

1. Why is Lucario so low? He lacks a good neutral yes, but he has projectiles, and a decent DD. Also, jab is not really commiting. And if they shield jab, well Lucario will work his magic.

I really wish the lucario threads had hitboxes so i could confirm is jab is good or not. Lucario's DD is worse than average. His projectiles are decent, yeah. All his approaches are hail marys imo, and almost all of them get shut down by CCing (air-downb>nair/dair, and fishing for grabs are the exceptions, with a few others I'm probably forgetting). proper CC and SDI get you out of combos, but you have to know what to do for what strings of combos, and thats hard so it makes his combos seem better than they are.

2. Squirtle, you're sleeping on him
how so? I think he's great and has tons of potential, but we haven't seen a lot of it yet. He could be better than the credit I'm giving him, yet, with his slipper movement options. the Best Squirtles right now (YadoR, Burnsey, and i think zswarm(?)) aren't making gigantic splashes. They are placing well, but I feel like squirtle has untaped potential we don't know about. However thats not what tier-lists are for, they are meant to reflect the current meta.

3. ZSS
Yes, ZSS? you're saying this like I made an obvious mistake that should be apparent to everyone.

4. Snake in the same tier as TOON LINK. Snake is wayy better than TL

Whats you're reasoning for this? Yeah, snake has really strong punishes. But he's slow, immobile, and his tranq, which is one of his stronger tools to transition from neutral to punish, is literally limited in the number of times you can fish for it. He relies on grabs and good tranqs in neutral/tech chase situations to be effective.
Tink on the other hand is mobile with much better projectiles, and his kit flows from neutral to offensive and defensive much better. Their recoveries are similar, good and long, but easily intercepted (although tink's is much harder to do). I know theres jokes about tink being constant bottom tier, but he's great, fast, has strong projectiles and good disjoints, and his kit flows better than snakes. Being able to flow well from offensive/defensive is such an underated ability. (its what makes fox good)

5. Pikachu low tier

Pikachu is good. I didn't put anyone in low tier.

6. Sheik in high tier. She's not as good in PM. Mid tier material. Swap Sheik's position with Snake.
no, sheik is just as good in PM, if not better because she handles most of the cast just as well. D-throw does not make shiek good in melee, people need to get that out of their heads. Chain-grabs to 30>ftilt/fair isn't particularly broken guys. Everything shiek had that as good in melee is still here (multiple projectiles in one move that beat out others easily, the ability to drag out and thrive in a slow neutral game, edgeguarding abilities on the level of Mario/pit/mk, simple combos that are developed by a decade of experience to always result in positional advantage, everything that makes shiek good in melee is still there.)
7. Wario in upper mid tier. Too high.
reasoning?
Everything else is agreeable.

^ responses in bold

I can't agree with Wolf being above Falco or even more so Fox. His combo game can somewhat rival Falco's, but then he doesn't have his same degree of stage control because he lacks fullscreen lasers. Having obscene stage control is more important than a character's combo game. Especially when Falco has that exact stage control and an even better combo game than Wolf to begin with. Fox is just outright a better character than Wolf, I'm not even going to debate about that. That includes the MU chart and individual character ability. Wolf cannot have that much more positive match-ups than those two, that it would put him over Fox (even if it's by only a spot) and a tier above Falco. Snake is too low in that list for me. Sheik is too high, she isn't better than Fox, Falco, Wolf nor Lucas.

characters in the same grouping are effectively equivalent.
Full screen lasers don't accomplish anything for spacies to begin with if they aren't camping. Wolf's laser is arguably better because its a slow-moving projectile that he can act quickly out of, Ie its a set-up projectile. I put him above falco because wolf's mobility is far better than falcos on a whole, and his recovery is that much better. no charge time-start-up, better hitboxes, faster and more distance.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Soft Serve
Tiers do reflect the metagame, so in that case I can agree with your list somewhat.

At the same time, this would make Snake top tier, TL mid-low, raise Fox to #1, Pikachu to high, Sheik mid-low, etc.

Plus, you really can't compare Snake and TL. Snake's only flaw is his approach (camp with grenades and mortal shell/C4/landmine placements control the stage) and his easy to edgeguard recovery (which can be neutered by recovering high). TL's recovery never gets edgeguarded, because it just plops as soon as it starts. Snake has a chaingrab on most of the cast, and it works better on floaties at lower percents, and semi fast faller to mid percents. Guaranteed KO set up in up throw C4, which puts him in no risk, unlike Fox, who has to jump up and up air, when he could potentially be hit and the situation would reset. He has guaranteed C4 set ups, and not just from tranquilizer. He has insane platform pressure/general shield pressure, and you don't need C4 for this. He ha excellent damage output, a powerful spike, a free tech chase grab, etc. Snake punishes extremely hard. Which is why I think he's top tier. Snake is a lot like Lucas in this sense. They punish extremely hard.

Also, honestly, Fox's offensive kit is WAYYY better than his defensive kit. I mean half of the weak hits of his moves combo into each other. If anything Falco has the better defensive options, since he actually has a stage controlling projectile.