Tier List Speculation

[Angrycuban]

And I'm not sure who you're pointing out is complaining.

nobody in specfic, its just threads like these always lead to people complaining about their character when 90% of the time they just don't know their character/a specific match up well enough

Edit: Sorry for double post

 

[Zoa]

That's fair enough. It doesn't make your opinion any less wildly, dramatically, hilariously wrong.

Don't get me wrong. Lucario's neutral game isn't great - most evident in his struggles with Link, I think. But putting it in the same ballpark as Bowser is pretty uninformed.

I'd appreciate it if you would be less of an ass in your replies. The conclusion I reached from my experience is because I get bodied pretty regularly almost every time from one of my practice partners who uses Bowser. He plays very patiently to the point where I must commit, and end up getting punished very hard as a result. I understand as well anyone Bowser has a bad neutral, yet I'm pretty convinced Bowser's neutral options may be better than Lucario's currently.

Edit:

And if you care to inform as to why Bowser has a worse neutral game, then care to explain? A Bowser main's experience would be very beneficial as I see to be "pretty uninformed".

 

[trash?]

I kind of hope I stuffed that out last time you got mad at people, but eh.

bowser is worse overall, but bowser has up-b out of shield, which means he has at least one more good neutral tool than lucario

lucario can just tap you once and convert into combos that can make a space animal weep tho so s'cool

 

[Frost | Odds]

The conclusion I reached from my experience is because I get bodied pretty regularly almost every time from one of my practice partners who uses Bowser. He plays very patiently to the point where I must commit.

He's bowser. You don't have to commit. Ever.

EDIT: @ trash? I'm curious where you'd place Kirby in the current build. He seems completely godawful to me due to how hard he gets zoned by anybody with a projectile, and hosed by anyone faster or longer ranged than him, but it could just be me playing him completely wrong. :s

 

[mtmaster]

Hmmm sonic and bowser bottom tier??

Sonic bottom tier yeah right. Wasn't he so ridiculous in a previous version that he was nerfed? Even with that nerf I think people still consider him pretty great, but I could be wrong as not everyone is Wizzrobe.

 

[Zoa]

He's bowser. You don't have to commit. Ever.

Against him as Lucario? It's pretty much do or let time expire in our games. He's figured out when to place dsmash against DT cancelled aerials, WF OoS, and even space fsmash against DT cancelled jabs, tilts, and smashes to armor through them for a hit. Of course a successful hit on him is practically a stock, but Bowser has good counters against Lucario's neutral from my experience.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wtf Bowser is getting consistent fsmashes off on you? No wonder you think he's good, you just appear to be very bad

 

[Zoa]

Wtf Bowser is getting consistent fsmashes off on you? No wonder you think he's good, you just appear to be very bad

Ugh. I guess I'm bad at wording things sometimes. It's not consistent. He has learned that a Bowser fsmash is a workable punish against DT cancelled moves if he reads I'm going to do it as a possible approach. More often than not it's a CC dtilt if I whiff the sweetspot on Luc's dtilt.

Edit:

I honestly don't think Bowser is too good, nor am I too bad. He has workable punishes against Luc's approach options is what I'm saying, but it's a different thing entirely. The original idea of Bowser having a better neutral than Lucario were how his options handled in relation to Lucario against the cast. Lucario pressures through sheer momentum and nothing more. Bowser has much better CC options, WF OoS, and lingering hitboxes coupled with better range on his moves. Bowser's better defensive options in general help him from getting shut down as badly as Lucario from my experience.

 

[FlamingForce]

Aura Sphere is horrible now for pressure or general camping thanks to its horrendous end lag and super slow speed as a charge shot

Relative to what? It's the fastest charging shot/punch/whatever in the game. Even the tiny shots have pretty good kb scaling.

I mean yeah it's no Falco laser but it's decently helpful vs the likes of Roy.

 

[Zx2963]

Wtf Bowser is getting consistent fsmashes off on you? No wonder you think he's good, you just appear to be very bad

You have to admit you can get caught a couple of times by surprise, and that's pretty much a stock

 

[didds]

squirtle is pretty much a superior bowser
like how link is a superior toon link
and fox is a superior falco
and falcon is a superior man

Lucario is a superior Yoshi

 

[Frost | Odds]

You have to admit you can get caught a couple of times by surprise, and that's pretty much a stock

By fsmashes? No, that takes some pretty profoundly bad play.

I'm pretty much learning to play the entire goddamn roster atm out of sheer inability to help myself; and also frustration at the marth/ivy/m2 matchups. >.>

 

[Zx2963]

By fsmashes? No, that takes some pretty profoundly bad play.

I'm pretty much learning to play the entire goddamn roster atm out of sheer inability to help myself; and also frustration at the marth/ivy/m2 matchups. >.>

If for example, you whiff a smash attack and they buffered a fsmash Oos or something like that, even with DI around 70 you're dead

EDIT: I'm not even going to try to cover that up

 

[FlamingForce]

If for example, you whiff a smash attack and they buffered a fsmash Oos or something like that, even with DI around 70 you're dead

Fsmash oos?

 

[Frost | Odds]

If for example, you whiff a smash attack and they buffered a fsmash Oos or something like that, even with DI around 70 you're dead

I don't think you know how Bowser works. Or Smash in general.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Fsmash oos?

Lmao. "Buffered Fsmash OOS".... Falco & Roy are just begging for this tech.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That would make roy good

 

[Zoa]

Relative to what? It's the fastest charging shot/punch/whatever in the game. Even the tiny shots have pretty good kb scaling.

I mean yeah it's no Falco laser but it's decently helpful vs the likes of Roy.

The end lag on AS makes it impossible to capitalize off of a successful hit. The charged AS also travels very slowly and disappears faster than BAS.

 

[Hylian]

If for example, you whiff a smash attack and they buffered a fsmash Oos or something like that, even with DI around 70 you're dead

You cannot buffer attacks in this game and you can't use Fsmash OoS...

 

[Oracle]

Im a little late but I just want to say that if olimar could pull purps consistently, he would be extremely broken. If you dont think rng can involve skill then you need to read more about poker and patrick chapin

 

[trash?]

because nothing says skillful use of randomness quite like jumping up, using a hammer a single time and immediately getting a 9, something which has decided entire sets before

there's competition which allows for skilled understanding of luck, and then there's RNG. don't ever compare these two things

e: also, I don't think you realize how much bigger of a design issue olimar has when you say "this RNG has to be RNG because only getting this broken thing every once in a while is much safer". like damn I was just mentioning how inconsistent he was

 

[Oracle]

You act like I think gw's hammer is good for the game lol. I was specifically talking about olimar, where you earn more chances to get purples or w/e pikmin you need by getting control from your opponent. Forcing you to deal with something that is out of your control by earning more opportunities to go for it leads to a lot of deep, complex decisions.

Gw hammer could be skillful, but having a move that kills at 0 is just so much better than all the other hammers that the best strategy is to just filter until you have decent odds for a 9 and go for it. Your expected return in any situation involving a possible nine is stupid high, so its always worth the risk

 

[shairn]

Combo into judge knowing you'll get an odd number = 1/5 chance of kill, 1/5 chance of getting 10%, 1/5 chance of healing yourself with a strong attack and 2/5 of getting a strong combo finisher. So 80% of the time GnW will finish his combo with a good roll of judge, 25% of which will be a kill. It's not that big of an RNG, so it's pretty reasonable to expect it to happen.

 

[Oracle]

Well you can actually narrow it down to 1/3 chance of a 9 since you cant roll the previous 2 numbers, and at that point it doesn't matter what the other 2 hammers are

 

[didds]

Bowser
Waveland back into fsmash can catch a lot of people off guard who are spacing to cover the landing.
Unless it's a shield break, fsmashes have to be super well thought out and need a strong read.

Raw fsmash in neutral with no prior conditioning should never work, but the move can still be creatively used successfully.

no greater reward than landing that move.

 

[shairn]

Well you can actually narrow it down to 1/3 chance of a 9 since you cant roll the previous 2 numbers, and at that point it doesn't matter what the other 2 hammers are

The previous two numbers aren't necessarily odd, though that's a good point.

 

[jtm94]

Whenever you start a match there is a higher % chance the first hammer will be a 9 and the second highest % chance for it to be an 8. Hammer also does not KO at 0%, it is a little bit weaker than Rest for base knockback, but I have not tested growth.

Worth noting I have lost stocks due to rolling a 1 when I had a 30% chance of 9. It's a gamble which make it bad in competitive play for consistencies sake, but sometimes well worth it when he can combo into it and it's just fun in general to use. Hammers 1, 3, 4, 5, 8 won't KO and only 5 and 8 have a chance to be beneficial. The 5 hammer can be SDId so he cannot get a follow up and 8 hammer's frozen state lasts a random amount of time so it really only achieve damage. 2 hammer's sleeping state can also be mashed out of before he can land anything significant, but I can't tell if it is affected by %, random lengths of sleeping, or both. 8 and 9 are still my favorite hammers though, especially 8 off stage.

 

[Rᴏb]

Sometimes I wish they would map judge to down taunt (because I doubt they would straight up get rid of it) and give him a sideb that wasn't so situational/luck based.

 

[jtm94]

Sometimes I wish they would map judge to down taunt (because I doubt they would straight up get rid of it) and give him a sideb that wasn't so situational/luck based.

If you can consistently set up Judgment I think it's pretty good. My point to make was just that all of his SideB isn't just healing and instal kills, some are mediocre and you will be punished, but a lot are pretty favorable when landed. Not every move in the game needs to be useful. See: Captain Falcon

Speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence Disagreeing with no basis.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So whats new. Is Mewtwo considered broken yet? Sure sounds like it. I'm glad.

Just remember that I was one of the original OGs (Or maybe I was the only one?) that ranted about Mewtwo back before too many people thought he was good. Before Emukiller even. I like to think that the PM backroom saw my insane rants and thought "Wow. This guy is having a stroke and a half over this goddamn piece of garbage OP character. I feel bad for him. Let's nerf him."

Now, it's not like there is any knowledge of anything or anything but I just KNOW that Mewtwo is going to be nerfed in the next update :3 That makes me a happy camper.

Maaannnnnn just thinking about what kind of nerfs Mewtwo could get makes me feel nice and warm inside! Heeheehee. Ftilt and Dtilt prob could get 3 more frames of startup or so. Dsmash have I dunno, MORE THEN FOUR RECOVERY. FOUR. WTF WERE THEY THINKING? Teleport........oh man. Less distance, more startup, can't act as soon afterwards, better yet just remove it from the game.....Nair, I dunno, make the hitbox less ****ing ******** or something, Uair, Bair, less knockback, more cooldown..........hover cancel? Probably going to get removed. That dumb as hell grab from behind bs - GONE. Make Mewtwo's tail part of his hurtbox. Aaaaahhhhhh. I'll just think of possible Mewtwo nerfs next time I'm feeling down. That really hit the spot. Tasted about as good as nice orange juice.

Thanks Emukiller! Thanks to you this idiotic character will be nerfed! PM just got slightly less dumb thanks to you! Hopefully! God knows M2K wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

These johns though. They're incredible.

Guys, note that this man mains Ganondorf, who is underpowered in the current build in PM. His character needs buffs.

That being said, your nerfs are ridiculous Une. Everyone can grab from behind them. But some characters have bigger backwards grabs than others. The range of Mewtwo's forward grab is actually kinda lol.

-Hover Cancels do not break Mewtwo AT ALL. Johns?
-What is more than 4 recovery? Johns?
-Hurtboxes on all part of tail I agree with
-Teleport taking mega nerfs? I smell johns. Oh you want to remove it too? Only nerf TP needs is no more hovering out of it.
-Nair should deal half the shield damage it does now. I agree with that nerf.
-MK has a faster dtilt. Many characters have a frame 5-6 dtilt. Dtilt was and never will be the problem. Johns?
-Up air needs less range, but its not some free to spam move.

You do know your own character will likely never be good (high or top tier) because he's fat and by nature slow right?

 

[Rᴏb]

If you can consistently set up Judgment I think it's pretty good. My point to make was just that all of his SideB isn't just healing and instal kills, some are mediocre and you will be punished, but a lot are pretty favorable when landed. Not every move in the game needs to be useful. See: Captain Falcon

Speculation: the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence Disagreeing with no basis.

I'm confused, was the bottom line directed at me? I'm essentially agreeing with your statement:

It's a gamble which make it bad in competitive play for consistencies sake,

You can't consistently set up judgement. You can give yourself better odds for getting a desired number, but there will always be a chance of failure just "because". I don't find this move to appealing on a character that already struggles in this game as is- having a luck based move rather than a potentially useful one on an otherwise mediocre character doesn't sit well with me. I realize that not every move in the game needs to be useful, but in situations like this aren't more useful moves warranted for mediocre characters?

It's just dumb how a move can a) let you take a free stock, or b) get you killed, with no regards as to how the match is actually going.

 

[didds]

but judge hammer is awesome...

 

[Rᴏb]

9's are awesome

and stupid

 

[CORY]

9's are the only way to get into combo videos.

 

[1FD]

This game is so awesome it's stupid.

GW fits like a gluuuuuuuurve
Upb da bess
I would totally like it a little less randomized too

Also I have a special guest over who will do a shpeeeel soon. :D Yay

 

[jtm94]

Setting it up wasn't necessarily referring to tinkering with the odds, but that he can combo into it in scenarios where he will be punished minimally. Such as landing hitbox of dair that sets up any move he wants to land, or UpB which can combo into SideB at various %s.

 

[FlamingForce]

If for example, you whiff a smash attack and they buffered a fsmash Oos or something like that, even with DI around 70 you're dead

EDIT: I'm not even going to try to cover that up

Respect.

 

[victinivcreate1]

So guys, whats the general consensus on Diddy and Donkey Kong? I feel Diddy is top tier. I heard Strong Bad say Donkey beats anyone without a projectile and loses to anyone with (guess he loses to ).

And even then, a lot of these characters have a bit of trouble once DK closes in.
I'd call DK mid tier king.

 

[PlateProp]

So guys, whats the general consensus on Diddy and Donkey Kong? I feel Diddy is top tier. I heard Strong Bad say Donkey beats anyone without a projectile and loses to anyone with (guess he loses to ).

And even then, a lot of these characters have a bit of trouble once DK closes in.
I'd call DK mid tier king.

Kankey Dong is bad cuz everyone is bad

 

[Circle_Breaker]

guess he loses to

, , , , , , - no projectiles? sorry to nitpick.