Tier List Speculation

[Zoa]

I'll just throw my two cents in on Ganon.

-Potential hover option? Ganon's pretty dang sluggish already as it is with a lack of pressure options. His aerial game is rather solid, and a hover would increase his pressure and movement options in general for neutral. It's also a part of his character in several Zelda games.

-Sword taunt option like Samus' beam swap? Ganon having a disjoint option to apply more pressure and make his opponent respect his spacing.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

 

[mimgrim]

his MAIN PLAYSTYLE WHICH IS THE BASIS FOR ALL OF HIS SMASHES, AERIALS AND SPECIAL MOVES are only good when the game gives you a good setup to work with

he has to rely on it, because the difference between getting a good setup (which often needs at least one purple, if you want any kill power outside of throws) and a bad one is the different between a character I'll have trouble dealing with, and a character I can roll through and trade constantly without fear.

A "good" setup is relative.

He doesn't need a purple Pikmin to kill, it just helps him kill earlier. He can kill at around 120% with other Pikmin that aren't white ones, which really isn't bad. Yes a purple one will make him scarier and kill fast but he isn't going to be horribly bad without one.

I'm not saying RNG is good or bad. I just think you are exaggerating how much of a negative impact it has on Olimar.

 

[Kati]

I'll just throw my two cents in on Ganon.

-Potential hover option? Ganon's pretty dang sluggish already as it is with a lack of pressure options. His aerial game is rather solid, and a hover would increase his pressure and movement options in general for neutral. It's also a part of his character in several Zelda games.

-Sword taunt option like Samus' beam swap? Ganon having a disjoint option to apply more pressure and make his opponent respect his spacing.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

+1 for hover ( even if it's just something the pmbr tests and then rejects)
-1 for sword

 

[mtmaster]

After extensive research I've discovered the perfect tier list

Top Tier:
- [x] character who won large tournament [y] / beat well known player [z]
- Fox News

Mid Tier:
- ROB

Bottom 5:
- Toon Link
- Toon Link
- Toon Link
- Jigglypuff Toon Link
- Toon Link

This makes me sad T^T. Why Toon Link, why you so bad in PM?

-Potential hover option? Ganon's pretty dang sluggish already as it is with a lack of pressure options.

-Sword taunt option like Samus' beam swap? Ganon having a disjoint option to apply more pressure and make his opponent respect his spacing.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

This should be a thing. Honestly the sword taunt in particular would be great since I've always personally thought Ganondorf being a clone of Falcon was stupid, with all the source material there is in his games to work off of.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Pikachu needs buffs. D-tilt should start combos and dash attack should be made into something other than a "don't do that, noob" piece of garbage.

Alternatively, his neutral b could be brought in line with all the other ridiculous projectiles in P:M with an end lag reduction

 

[victinivcreate1]

Pikachu needs buffs. D-tilt should start combos and dash attack should be made into something other than a "don't do that, noob" piece of garbage.

Alternatively, his neutral b could be brought in line with all the other ridiculous projectiles in P:M with an end lag reduction

Pikachu is not bad by any means.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Pikachu is not bad by any means.

Yeah but he could be less not bad and not as unintuitive

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yeah but he could be less not bad and not as unintuitive

Melee Pika+few buffs+ Brawl QAC.

How does that make a bad Pika again?

 

[NickRiddle]

Melee Pika+few buffs+ Brawl QAC.

How does that make a bad Pika again?

Because other characters got better...er?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Because other characters got better...er?

Pika still ain't bad. You'd know. Your own brother is like the best Pika if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Pika still ain't bad.

we just want on the same buff train that mario is riding i guess.

 

[Ripple]

pika's projectile does not need buffs, every other characters projectile should be toned down to be more like pikachus

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

As a Pika main, I think he's fine.
I can't even do it consistently cause Melee, but QAC seems like enough.

 

[Une]

So whats new. Is Mewtwo considered broken yet? Sure sounds like it. I'm glad.

Just remember that I was one of the original OGs (Or maybe I was the only one?) that ranted about Mewtwo back before too many people thought he was good. Before Emukiller even. I like to think that the PM backroom saw my insane rants and thought "Wow. This guy is having a stroke and a half over this goddamn piece of garbage OP character. I feel bad for him. Let's nerf him."

Now, it's not like there is any knowledge of anything or anything but I just KNOW that Mewtwo is going to be nerfed in the next update :3 That makes me a happy camper.

Maaannnnnn just thinking about what kind of nerfs Mewtwo could get makes me feel nice and warm inside! Heeheehee. Ftilt and Dtilt prob could get 3 more frames of startup or so. Dsmash have I dunno, MORE THEN FOUR RECOVERY. FOUR. WTF WERE THEY THINKING? Teleport........oh man. Less distance, more startup, can't act as soon afterwards, better yet just remove it from the game.....Nair, I dunno, make the hitbox less ****ing ******** or something, Uair, Bair, less knockback, more cooldown..........hover cancel? Probably going to get removed. That dumb as hell grab from behind bs - GONE. Make Mewtwo's tail part of his hurtbox. Aaaaahhhhhh. I'll just think of possible Mewtwo nerfs next time I'm feeling down. That really hit the spot. Tasted about as good as nice orange juice.

Thanks Emukiller! Thanks to you this idiotic character will be nerfed! PM just got slightly less dumb thanks to you! Hopefully! God knows M2K wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

 

[Phan7om]

Pika is definitely in that "fine" category.

Edit: ^ Lol wtf!

 

[Circle_Breaker]

As a Pika main, I think he's fine.
I can't even do it consistently cause Melee, but QAC seems like enough.

QAC is actually gdlk, watching old vids of Axe in melee you'll see situations every 10 seconds where WD or nair or anything out of QA would have put him over the top but instead he gets punished or barely escapes pressure at the cost of stage position. so yeah pika is good, the rest of the **** in pm makes him seem a little boring.

I would still get a massive pokeboner if dash attack stopped being ass

 

[mtmaster]

I'll just throw my two cents in on Ganon.

-Potential hover option? Ganon's pretty dang sluggish already as it is with a lack of pressure options. His aerial game is rather solid, and a hover would increase his pressure and movement options in general for neutral. It's also a part of his character in several Zelda games.

-Sword taunt option like Samus' beam swap? Ganon having a disjoint option to apply more pressure and make his opponent respect his spacing.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

So whats new. Is Mewtwo considered broken yet? Sure sounds like it. I'm glad.

Just remember that I was one of the original OGs (Or maybe I was the only one?) that ranted about Mewtwo back before too many people thought he was good. Before Emukiller even. I like to think that the PM backroom saw my insane rants and thought "Wow. This guy is having a stroke and a half over this goddamn piece of garbage OP character. I feel bad for him. Let's nerf him."

Now, it's not like there is any knowledge of anything or anything but I just KNOW that Mewtwo is going to be nerfed in the next update :3 That makes me a happy camper.

Maaannnnnn just thinking about what kind of nerfs Mewtwo could get makes me feel nice and warm inside! Heeheehee. Ftilt and Dtilt prob could get 3 more frames of startup or so. Dsmash have I dunno, MORE THEN FOUR RECOVERY. FOUR. WTF WERE THEY THINKING? Teleport........oh man. Less distance, more startup, can't act as soon afterwards, better yet just remove it from the game.....Nair, I dunno, make the hitbox less ****ing ******** or something, Uair, Bair, less knockback, more cooldown..........hover cancel? Probably going to get removed. That dumb as hell grab from behind bs - GONE. Make Mewtwo's tail part of his hurtbox. Aaaaahhhhhh. I'll just think of possible Mewtwo nerfs next time I'm feeling down. That really hit the spot. Tasted about as good as nice orange juice.

Thanks Emukiller! Thanks to you this idiotic character will be nerfed! PM just got slightly less dumb thanks to you! Hopefully! God knows M2K wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

I don't think Mewtwo is THAT ridiculous. You make it sound like he's unstoppable or something, when I'm pretty sure there is enough balance currently that prevents such.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Just remember that I was one of the original OGs (Or maybe I was the only one?) that ranted about Mewtwo back before too many people thought he was good.

no1curr

Out of curiosity, for whoever thinks Lucario is top ~15 or better: is this based on current performance or dreams of 0-death combos?

EDIT: I asked that thinking that somebody had said he's high tier in the last few pages, but I can't find it now.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't think Mewtwo is THAT ridiculous. You make it sound like he's unstoppable or something, when I'm pretty sure there is enough balance currently that prevents such.

He's not unstoppable.

For sonic.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu is better than most characters in this game. High speed, great recovery, reliable kills and kill set ups. The only thing he is missing is a super spammy/cheap projectile, but i am fine with that.

 

[Zoa]

no1curr

Out of curiosity, for whoever thinks Lucario is top ~15 or better: is this based on current performance or dreams of 0-death combos?

EDIT: I asked that thinking that somebody had said he's high tier in the last few pages, but I can't find it now.

I'm a Lucario main. I wouldn't consider anyone's opinion on a tier list yet as everything is up for change, lack proper information, or just any sort of bias. What I can tell you is that Lucario is simply a punish character and combo character right now.

Pros:
Incredible movement options
OHC mix up options
Incredible punish game
Recovery you can mix up somewhat
Good combo game
Decent kill power
Amazing evasion options in DT and super fast dodges
ASC (Aura Sphere Cancel) grants him an aerial L-cancel, L-cancel on grounded attacks, and much more stuff

Cons:
His neutral game is poop (real super bad)
Easily combo-ed
His moves are very susceptible to CC
His super tiny shield (whoever thought this was a good idea was wrong)
Aura Sphere is horrible now for pressure or general camping thanks to its horrendous end lag and super slow speed as a charge shot
He has trouble approaching with a lack of any good pressure option, disjointed hitbox, or faster projectile to force opponents to do anything

Lucario right now is all about using his superior movement options to bait something out of the opponent and punish hard. He can't pressure very well, suffers against characters with good disjoints lingering hitboxes, or keep away game, and has some issue handling pressure as well. He has options no other characters have, but has horrible options in neutral period.

 

[Zoa]

So whats new. Is Mewtwo considered broken yet? Sure sounds like it. I'm glad.

Just remember that I was one of the original OGs (Or maybe I was the only one?) that ranted about Mewtwo back before too many people thought he was good. Before Emukiller even. I like to think that the PM backroom saw my insane rants and thought "Wow. This guy is having a stroke and a half over this goddamn piece of garbage OP character. I feel bad for him. Let's nerf him."

Now, it's not like there is any knowledge of anything or anything but I just KNOW that Mewtwo is going to be nerfed in the next update :3 That makes me a happy camper.

Maaannnnnn just thinking about what kind of nerfs Mewtwo could get makes me feel nice and warm inside! Heeheehee. Ftilt and Dtilt prob could get 3 more frames of startup or so. Dsmash have I dunno, MORE THEN FOUR RECOVERY. FOUR. WTF WERE THEY THINKING? Teleport........oh man. Less distance, more startup, can't act as soon afterwards, better yet just remove it from the game.....Nair, I dunno, make the hitbox less ****ing ******** or something, Uair, Bair, less knockback, more cooldown..........hover cancel? Probably going to get removed. That dumb as hell grab from behind bs - GONE. Make Mewtwo's tail part of his hurtbox. Aaaaahhhhhh. I'll just think of possible Mewtwo nerfs next time I'm feeling down. That really hit the spot. Tasted about as good as nice orange juice.

Thanks Emukiller! Thanks to you this idiotic character will be nerfed! PM just got slightly less dumb thanks to you! Hopefully! God knows M2K wouldn't have been able to pull it off.

This post disgusts me as a Mewtwo main. He does have some issues that need to be addressed, but holy **** do people blow this stuff out of proportion.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I know what Lucario does in general, I was just curious why someone thought he was high tier given that I haven't really seen anything to justify that in 3.02 besides wishful thinking. He interests me even if I don't really play him, wondered if I'd slept on something. Ended up being a potentially stupid question since I didn't actually see the post I thought I remembered when I checked the last three or four pages.

That's not to say I think he's bad, but I do think a couple of tiny buffs wouldn't go amiss.

 

[Zoa]

I know what Lucario does, I was just curious why someone thought he was high tier given that I haven't really seen anything to justify that in 3.02 besides wishful thinking. He interests me even if I don't really play him, wondered if I'd slept on something. Ended up being a potentially stupid question since I didn't actually see the post I thought I remembered when I checked the last three or four pages.

That's not to say I think he's bad, but I do think a couple of tiny buffs wouldn't go amiss.

Honestly anyone who thinks Lucario is high tier currently probably doesn't know how hard of a time he has in neutral. If anything he's probably towards lower mid in 3.02. He doesn't have the pros in neutral like other characters have to pressure to get what you need out of them. Many characters in the game force Lucario to go on the defensive with his amazing evasion options. Honestly I think Bowser is in a better position for neutral than Lucario.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Honestly I think Bowser is in a better position for neutral than Lucario.

Honestly I think you need to get off whatever drugs you're on.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Bowser needs nerfing bad, his fsmash is so broken and fire breath is auto-death as a ledge guard, truly impenetrable.

 

[Zoa]

Honestly I think you need to get off whatever drugs you're on.

And another one of these comments by you I see floating around doing nothing but insulting a person. Care to explain your reasoning in a respectful manner instead of making nothing but an asshole-ish remark?

 

[DrinkingFood]

He's not the one who made the claim that bowser's neutral is better than Lucario's. You're the one that needs to back up your claim.

 

[Angrycuban]

lucario has no disjoint? hello? whats that aura stuff in front of his foot that hits you and cant be hit then...people need to stop complaining about their characters and just get bettter

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

People really slept on Mewtwo, until someone finally demonstrated what a tool Teleport is in conjunction with hover. Everyone was just marveling at M2K's basic Mewtwo, until he got wrecked. Lol, people were putting him in low A Tier when he virtually can recover from anything , has a great onstage, and amazing offstage game with range to boot. I was wondering how long it would take. Now everyone is going to join hands and cry nerf.

 

[Zoa]

He's not the one who made the claim that bowser's neutral is better than Lucario's. You're the one that needs to back up your claim.

I never made a claim Bowser's neutral is better than Luc's. The claim you mention is an adamant assertion usually without factual evidence to back it up. I made a statement about an opinion I have. The word "think" in my last sentence should have made it clear. There's the difference. I don't make claims without substantial evidence that has been proven. If someone with more Bowser experience in neutral would care to explain, then I'd be all ears.

 

[Frost | Odds]

And another one of these comments by you I see floating around doing nothing but insulting a person. Care to explain your reasoning in a respectful manner instead of making nothing but an *******-ish remark?

You made the claim that Bowser has a better neutral game than Lucario.

Given that pretty much every Bowser main (and everyone who regularly plays with one) will tell you that he actually has probably the single worst neutral game in PM (other than maybe Ganon in some matchups), this is a hell of a claim - and one that you've refused to back up.

Especially notable is the fact that the Bowser:Lucario matchup is pretty free for Lucario, largely because of how utterly crushed Bowser gets in the neutral game.

 

[SupremoRemo]

Hmmm sonic and bowser bottom tier??

 

[Frost | Odds]

I doubt it. Popular consensus seems to be that Sonic is quite good, and I'm inclined to agree.

Bowser's a tough one to place on the list. He really really punishes bad play hard, but once you know how to play against him (camp and grab), he becomes free for pretty much everyone.

If you're going to rate him for the average PM player - Bowser is actually probably top of mid tier or smth. Maybe even higher: the range on the fair and dashgrab tend to hose people who don't expect it, as does the command grab (which is easy to DI poorly if you're not used to it).

If you're assuming a relatively competent and learning-capable group of players, Bowser is a couple miles south of garbage tier.

 

[Zoa]

lucario has no disjoint? hello? whats that aura stuff in front of his foot that hits you and cant be hit then...people need to stop complaining about their characters and just get bettter

He has no safe disjoint to approach with unless he has an aura charge for DT cancel. I should have worded that more accurately. And I'm not sure who you're pointing out is complaining, but I'm working with what I've gotten out my characters thus far. Adapting is a crucial element in Smash.

 

[Zoa]

You made the claim that Bowser has a better neutral game than Lucario.

Given that pretty much every Bowser main (and everyone who regularly plays with one) will tell you that he actually has probably the single worst game in PM (other than maybe Ganon in some matchups), this is a hell of a claim - and one that you've refused to back up.

Especially notable is the fact that the Bowser:Lucario matchup is pretty free for Lucario, largely because of how utterly crushed Bowser gets in the neutral game.

Again, read the part where I quoted DrinkingFood. I made nothing more than a statement on my opinion from my experience.

 

[Frost | Odds]

That's fair enough. It doesn't make your opinion any less wildly, dramatically, hilariously wrong.

Don't get me wrong. Lucario's neutral game isn't great - most evident in his struggles with Link, I think. But putting it in the same ballpark as Bowser is pretty uninformed.

 

[Angrycuban]

i mean who doesnt struggle with link these days

 

[Frost | Odds]

i mean who doesnt struggle with link theses days

m2, Diddy, spacies, (probably sonic?), Mario, Ivysaur, MK

I could be wrong about Diddy.

 

[Angrycuban]

alright but they only go even