Tier List Speculation

[Kaysick]

Didnt know Rat and Oro did that good, but I'm not surprised. Get to play against them at weeklies at EXP Gaming. Midwest represent.

 

[Oro?!]

I can do better. Not pleased with my results.

 

[XXXX1000]

Now that we've seen one tournament result, is this where we say that ZSS is the top tier everyone slept on and the next Fox-killer or is this where we say that everyone below Oro didn't know the matchup and ZSS is still trash

Same thing goes for Mewtwo except he has the third option of "M2K used him so it doesn't count"

 

[jtm94]

Zelda vs Jiggs isn't really in either's favor that much that I've experienced. I just know the MU can take forever and Zelda's dins doesn't count as a true projectile imo because you can't toss an active hitbox across the screen. I'd rather have rang.

Lucas vs Jiggs though..... Lucas beats out pretty much all of her attacks with nairplane, his down b isn't bad either, actually none of his attacks are bad against her and his pk freeze ball can/will put in some work. Up Smash(charged) KOs at like....30-40% on an average map. Uncharged will KO at 50% being generous.

I was expecting a lot of Ivy hate too. Bair edgeguarding is fairly easy to do with no risk high reward, BUT it isn't really as effective on nonfastfallers/captain falcon ganon. Just because she can edgeguard a single character so well doesn't make it busted, but that freakin' UpB is ridiculous.... Why can it KO Charizard at 50% and is super easy to combo into AND has no risk for just tossing it out because of the massive disjoint? That is my only singular gripe with Ivy atm.

Mewtwo is the future. His utilt/uair are inescapable because he has the movement to follow any character to their death that isn't floaty, but even then sometimes... He also crushes fastfallers.

 

[woundedust]

bring back dair to rest

 

[Strong Badam]

I can do better. Not pleased with my results.

Same.
Would be concerned if either of us were "satisfied" tbh. The hunger is real.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

What are good double partners with Lucario? I've been wanting to find a good team, my roommates play a multitude of characters but I see good and bad aspects of each team with Lucario. Would it be best to have healing or reflecting as a move set to combo with his ball?

1. CT EMP Mew2King
2. CT Hungrybox
3. CT TLoc Denti
4. Rat
5 Oro?!
5. LoF Zinoto
7. Ripple
7. Strong Bad


The ooze is seeping into the top

What tournament is this?

 

[Bryonato]

That tourney was Shuffle... V? Just happened this last weekend

 

[9bit]

1. CT EMP Mew2King
2. CT Hungrybox
3. CT TLoc Denti
4. Rat
5 Oro?!
5. LoF Zinoto
7. Ripple
7. Strong Bad


The ooze is seeping into the top

CT is strong... but Chicago is coming for 'em!

 

[Burnsy]

Lucas vs Jiggs though..... Lucas beats out pretty much all of her attacks with nairplane.

Huh? Oh nononono. Lucas beats Puff don't get me wrong. But Nair definetly does not beat all her moves since she has moves with disjoint and Nair has no disjoint. He fights her mainly with magnet, fairs, zairs, a tether grab that can grab her from the air, and pk freezes.

Speaking of that, I've noticed that Lucas' nair is highly overrated by non-mains and new players of the character. Many consider it to be his most useful aerial approach, I think that's a bit naive. It's an easy approach to use when you are starting with him, but it is easily CC'd by almost anyone and it is relatively unsafe when shielded. It's a great move for its other uses, but of you want something similar to a spacie nairplane, you should look at his fair. Its VERY safe when spaced to the disjointed sweetspot and perfectly DJC'd, and along with magnet is a cornerstone of his pressure game.

 

[B.W.]

N-air is a combos move. Lucas's f-air is so much better for approaching though. Really I think his f-air is better than his n-air in almost all situations though including combos, approaching, retreating, etc.

 

[Hylian]

Nair is better for cross-ups and beating CC and...that's it really.

 

[Oracle]

What are good double partners with Lucario? I've been wanting to find a good team, my roommates play a multitude of characters but I see good and bad aspects of each team with Lucario. Would it be best to have healing or reflecting as a move set to combo with his ball?

GW! weak aura sphere fills bucket to the max

 

[Ali Baba 177]

GW! weak aura sphere fills bucket to the max

That works in PM too? I thought it was just brawl,, not sure though.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

You have the benefit of dumping the bucket without filling it all the way too. Usually two loads are pretty good.

 

[Empyrean]

The ooze is seeping into the top

Keep it up man, show them haters! Glad to see DDD getting good results as of late. I'm telling you people, DDD is gonna become the next spacie! Okay, maybe not, but I do believe he has a lot going for him.

 

[Terotrous]

Now that we've seen one tournament result, is this where we say that ZSS is the top tier everyone slept on and the next Fox-killer or is this where we say that everyone below Oro didn't know the matchup and ZSS is still trash

Not sure if serious, but one tournament is obviously not enough to tell. It could easily be either.

bring back dair to rest

I would honestly support this if Rest did comparable damage to SSB64. I feel that its current level of power makes Jiggs too one-dimensional. I'd much rather see her have a generally solid game with Rest being a reliable kill move than being generally weak but having this potentially amazing low % kill that's very unreliable and risky. Her current setup makes Jiggs extremely volatile and most competitive players will avoid that because sooner or later you're going to have a bad round and get knocked out of the tournament.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

This is the tier list speculation thread, so I'll post my updated thoughts.

S Tier:
Fox
Pit
Mario
Falco
Toon Link
Metaknight

S- Tier:
Link
Snake
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Yoshi (once/if parrying is fixed)
Sheik
Lucas

A+ Tier:
Ivysaur
Mewtwo
Ike
Game & Watch
Pikachu

A Tier:
Sonic
Peach
Marth
Wario
Sexy Suit Samus
Olimar
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
ROB the Robot
Samus
Kirby


A- Tier:
Ness
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Lucario
Charizard
Roy
Jigglypuff


B+ Tier:
Zelda
King Ooze
Bowser
Ganondorf

Edit: I feel like I'm missing a character, but I don't know who. Oh well

 

[Kaysick]

This is the tier list speculation thread, so I'll post my updated thoughts.

-snip-

Edit: I feel like I'm missing a character, but I don't know who. Oh well

I know it's your speculation, but I would like to hear your thoughts on Kirby and Ooze for why they're so low and why Toon Link is higher up than Link.

 

[Ripple]

news flash people, dair to rest has been in every iteration of smash.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

DDD has an amazing grab game, which leads to man gimps/low percent kills, but his terrible air mobility and overall slowness and gigantic size make it almost impossible to weave in and out of space during the neutral game. His only projectile, Waddle Dees (Gordos etc) are really good, but they are quite slow in general. You have to really out play your opponent in order to not take a large amount of percent in chip damage from Fireballs and other projectiles during stocks. It is quite easy to bait grabs/shield grabs and once you get a hit on DDD, you can combo him to death.

(In my opinion,) Kirby is a very linear character who suffers from lack of a very good approach. Although, not as fat and as slow as DDD, she also isn't very good at weaving in and out of projectiles. She can combo amazingly out of grabs, aerials and dash attack, but I feel that it is just really easy to out space his/her attacks and punish accordingly.

Lastly, I think of Toon Link as a sleeper top tier. He has an amazing projectile game, is faster and more mobile than Link, has great out of shield options, a very good recovery, and very good combos. I just don't see anything bad about Toon Link. The fact that he is more mobile (thus a better zoning/projectile game), and possesses a better recovery than Link make him overall better than Link.

TLDR; DDD can convert grabs and hits really well, but his overall bad neutral game and his weakness to projectiles (around 12 characters have very good projectile games) make me view him as a weaker character. Kirby is also weak in this way, but much less so.

Toon Link is secretly the best character in the game

 

[Terotrous]

news flash people, dair to rest has been in every iteration of smash.

Yes but it's not that reliable. It requires the kicks to hit at precise height and I'm pretty sure it's possible to DI out due to Rest's absurdly small hitbox.

The main problem with Jigglypuff is that how well Jigglypuff does in any match is completely equal to "how many times you get your low percent Rest combos out", and even Hungrybox has matches where he just can't land them.

 

[Kaysick]

DDD has an amazing grab game, which leads to man gimps/low percent kills, but his terrible air mobility and overall slowness and gigantic size make it almost impossible to weave in and out of space during the neutral game. His only projectile, Waddle Dees (Gordos etc) are really good, but they are quite slow in general. You have to really out play your opponent in order to not take a large amount of percent in chip damage from Fireballs and other projectiles during stocks. It is quite easy to bait grabs/shield grabs and once you get a hit on DDD, you can combo him to death.

(In my opinion,) Kirby is a very linear character who suffers from lack of a very good approach. Although, not as fat and as slow as DDD, she also isn't very good at weaving in and out of projectiles. She can combo amazingly out of grabs, aerials and dash attack, but I feel that it is just really easy to out space his/her attacks and punish accordingly.

Lastly, I think of Toon Link as a sleeper top tier. He has an amazing projectile game, is faster and more mobile than Link, has great out of shield options, a very good recovery, and very good combos. I just don't see anything bad about Toon Link. The fact that he is more mobile (thus a better zoning/projectile game), and possesses a better recovery than Link make him overall better than Link.

TLDR; DDD can convert grabs and hits really well, but his overall bad neutral game and his weakness to projectiles (around 12 characters have very good projectile games) make me view him as a weaker character. Kirby is also weak in this way, but much less so.

Toon Link is secretly the best character in the game

I can give you that much for DDD, but I personally don't think DDD is that low on your personal speculated tier list. My opinion though.

For Kirby, the only approach that comes to mind that can be easily punished(happens to me a lot because of bad habit) is the dash attack. Great approaches that come to mind are Nair because it actually has priority over lots of moves, Forward SideB cutter, and Fair. He can crouch over moves, such as certain grabs(like Marth's) and projectiles, and can get his own projectile by using Inhale. In your list I personally think he should be in high A or low A+ tier.

Possessing a better recovery than Link, in my opinion, is stretching it a little bit. I think its a bitter harder to pull off the bomb>UpB recover as Toon Link than Link. I've seen the three Link players at the weekly tournies I go to survive upwards to 150% because of his ability just to not die. Not saying Toon Link is bad at all, I've seen Aero play and I was thoroughly impressed.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The main problem with Jigglypuff is that how well Jigglypuff does in any match is completely equal to "how many times you get your low percent Rest combos out", and even Hungrybox has matches where he just can't land them.

Are you kidding? Hbox does quite well even when he doesn't land any rests.
If there's anything jiggs is centered around, it's bair/other aerials, not really rest.

 

[Terotrous]

Are you kidding? Hbox does quite well even when he doesn't land any rests.
If there's anything jiggs is centered around, it's bair/other aerials, not really rest.

That's not really the case in most of the sets I've seen him in. There was some Jiggs vs Fox set he was in (perhaps vs Mew2king?) where it indeed went exactly like that. Rests = win, no rests = lose.

Jiggs Fair and Bair are nice but she lacks a solid way to get in against people who control space in front of them well. That's why she desperately needs to get the kill if she does get in, hence the importance of Rest.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I can give you that much for DDD, but I personally don't think DDD is that low on your personal speculated tier list. My opinion though.

For Kirby, the only approach that comes to mind that can be easily punished(happens to me a lot because of bad habit) is the dash attack. Great approaches that come to mind are Nair because it actually has priority over lots of moves, Forward SideB cutter, and Fair. He can crouch over moves, such as certain grabs(like Marth's) and projectiles, and can get his own projectile by using Inhale. In your list I personally think he should be in high A or low A+ tier.

Possessing a better recovery than Link, in my opinion, is stretching it a little bit. I think its a bitter harder to pull off the bomb>UpB recover as Toon Link than Link. I've seen the three Link players at the weekly tournies I go to survive upwards to 150% because of his ability just to not die. Not saying Toon Link is bad at all, I've seen Aero play and I was thoroughly impressed.

King DDD is one of the worst characters in the neutral game, and the neutral game is a very big part of what decides how good a character is. King DDD can only space aerials, or read the opponent's dash dance/movement and hope to land a hit. But that is a lot easier said than done, and DDD gets combo'ed into oblivion. I put Kirby in A tier because I thought that every character above him was better. Better tools and maneuverability.

There are a couple of very questionable placings on my tier list. The main ones that really stick out are Captain Falcon and Zelda being that low. Aside from that, I think my tier list is pretty accurate. (I have mixed opinions on Zelda)

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu so high...

I almost spit laughing at M2K of all people calling Ivy broken.

And some peeps in here complaining about Brawl as much as they complain about buffs/nerfs. If yall spent that time getting good at a smash game instead then maybe PM tournaments would be more than a donation fund to melee/brawl/64(jaimeHR shoutout) players.

 

[jtm94]

My tier list

Chars on top have more advantageous MUs than the rest.
Chars in the middle have mostly even MUs and few disadvantageous MUs.
Chars at bottom have the least advantageous MUs, or mostly disadvantageous MUs.

A+ Tier
Fox
Mario
Falco
Metaknight

A Tier
Wolf
Sheik
Mewtwo
Lucas
Link
Peach
Diddy Kong

B+ Tier
Ivysaur
Ike
Marth
Snake
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Jigglypuff
Donkey Kong
Wario
DDD
Ice Climbers
Yoshi
Pikachu
Ness
Toon Link

B Tier
Sonic
Zelda
ROB
Kirby
Samus
Ganondorf

C+ Tier
Luigi
Roy
Squirtle
Game & Watch
Lucario
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Olimar

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Ack, forgot to reply to you, Cassio.

I think quite highly of Pikachu, although I understand and respect your reasoning for why he is still sub-par. Among the Pikachus that I watch, mainly Anther and Axe, I still see efficient combos and incredible gimps. I don't see the slight different in the up air affecting their gimp game although the higher throw makes it more difficult to extend combos.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

B+ Tier
Snake

B Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Wario


C+ Tier
Captain Falcon

Just going to question your placement of a few characters. Please explain your tier placement for Captain Falcon, Wario, Pit, and Zero Suit Samus. Just want to understand your reasoning.

 

[9bit]

My tier list

Chars on top have more advantageous MUs than the rest.
Chars in the middle have mostly even MUs and few disadvantageous MUs.
Chars at bottom have the least advantageous MUs, or mostly disadvantageous MUs.

A+ Tier
Fox
Mario
Falco
Metaknight

A Tier
Wolf
Sheik
Mewtwo
Lucas
Link
Peach
Diddy Kong

B+ Tier
Ivysaur
Ike
Marth
Snake
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Ness
Toon Link

B Tier
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Sonic
Wario
Zelda
ROB
Kirby
Samus
Ganondorf

C+ Tier
Luigi
Roy
Squirtle
Game & Watch
Lucario
Charizard
Captain Falcon
Olimar

I have a hypothesis that DDD is the character that is most often left out of tier lists. Not sure what it means, but it certainly seems to be the case.

 

[Time2Play]

Pikachu so high...

I almost spit laughing at M2K of all people calling Ivy broken.

And some peeps in here complaining about Brawl as much as they complain about buffs/nerfs. If yall spent that time getting good at a smash game instead then maybe PM tournaments would be more than a donation fund to melee/brawl/64(jaimeHR shoutout) players.

Your logic is so bad. Where do most of the people, who play pm, come from? Meele and Brawl. And were the people who have the tools to be sucessful in PM also sucessful in Melee/Brawl? Most likely. Than why should they stop playing their old game, where they can still place good at tourneys/win some money and completly switch over to a yet unfinished game.

Off course people that are good in PM/winning PM tourneys have a high chance to play Meele/Brawl as their main game. What do you expect? You want people to start playing smash with PM, so we can call them pure PM players?

Nevertheless, the most funny part is that you complain about other people complaining and wasting their time.

 

[Infil]

If yall spent that time getting good at a smash game instead then maybe PM tournaments would be more than a donation fund to melee/brawl/64(jaimeHR shoutout) players.

all of us got our start playing a different Smash game, and those who only just started learning Smash have to overcome 10+ years of Smash learning on a game that has seem numerous changes even as recently as two months ago? This is an asinine comment to the highest degree

 

[jtm94]

Just going to question your placement of a few characters. Please explain your tier placement for Captain Falcon, Wario, Pit, and Zero Suit Samus. Just want to understand your reasoning.

I made my list in a matter of minutes, but I had been contemplating one for quite some time so a few were misaligned.

Captain Falcon is quite bad. He has terrible approaches, gimpable recovery, half of his moveset is extremely situational. He is a very punish based character and I would like to see anyone do well with him in this game at a high level. He can kind of get by in Melee.... but is extremely dark horse imo. He probably could be better, but he won't be getting any better because his potential has been tapped with 10+ years of his play style being developed. You can literately wait him out because there isn't much he can do besides rush.

I moved Wario to B+. I have seen people do well with him, but I haven't seen that spark of hidden potential as I see from the other characters I placed high. His moveset is solid and I think his design is pretty solidified. I don't have much to say, just placed based on feel.

Pit isn't amazing by any means. The biggest thing he has are the arrows and really nice movement, but he doesn't have a crazy solid KO move. That being said he can still combo really well into gimps and arrows also aid in that. Armada does well with him because Armada is extremely good, he is an example of a solid character being used exceptionally well instead of an extremely good character being exploited as most tend to flag winners or anything PM related. I moved him up because he is more solid than the characters he was previously around.

I also moved up ZSS. I think she lacks solid KO moves, but cannot commit as far offstage as Pit could for a gimp. ZSS has amazing movement, however, and a lot of her true potential as a possible spacie killer or high mid tier have yet to be solidified. As of late I am becoming more comfortable with placing her below Ivy, but she could easily move up that list, I don't see her much.

 

[jtm94]

I have a hypothesis that DDD is the character that is most often left out of tier lists. Not sure what it means, but it certainly seems to be the case.

To be honest I jacked the names form Fish&Herbs19 tbh q:

Ice Climbers were also missing.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

To be honest I jacked the names form Fish&Herbs19 tbh q:

Ice Climbers were also missing.

Hey there, I didn't forget DDD. I couldn't possibly forget him considering that he is one of my mains. I just labeled him his proper name, King Ooze

Ah, that is the character that I missed! Ice Climbers!

 

[jtm94]

Hey there, I didn't forget DDD. I couldn't possibly forget him considering that he is one of my mains. I just labeled him his proper name, King Ooze

Ah, that is the character that I missed! Ice Climbers!

Ahhh, and that is why I missed him because I just went with defaults xD

Commentary on PM matches is a hypekiller sometimes. I wish I could commentate, I would like to say I know a decent amount of each characters random tech stuff.
I just hate when they're like... oh.. Zelda can have 2 of those fireball things out, pretty cool. Or look at that Lucas multi-shine! Meanwhile he just held in b >.< Little things bother me.

 

[Metazoa]

Commentating on PM should just be "everything is broken, and nothing works (against it)"
"Mario's Fireball is broken"
"Link's boomerang is broken"
"My ankle is broken"

 

[Nausicaa]

Falcon, Wario, Bowser, and Mewtwo talk, over the last few pages.
Good.
All of these characters are in good places.

Falcon isn't helpless, he's far from it, though the thoughts of him being 'bad' apparently still linger with some people. The things that can make him struggle (hard-hit-boxes pursuing him like a Fox/Falco would in tight spaces across a stage) aren't exactly more common in PM. These qualities in match-ups that hurt him carried over from Melee with a few new characters having them in PM to add to it, but a LOT more of the qualities that help him have become more common instead. The overall game-spread of viable qualities a character/match-up can present in PM evens him out a lot in his niche. Given the things that he hates the most from the incarnation he's copy-pasted from (Melee), basically the 'worst' stuff he had against him was already there, and only better things happened for him. He got a lot of help directly too. (Don't underestimate the significance of little things like how his punish game is cross-stage based and assisted by wide stages and handy blast-zones, or simply the leeway of aggressive off-stage play that Side-B snapping to a ledge opens for him)

Wario is of course solid, but the direction he's gone is beautiful, I think he's one of the games most perfectly functioning characters now. Everything fits so well in this 3.0 incarnation. A Grab or poke of some sort leading to a punish that looks like he's carrying an opponent back and forth, looking like he'll let them go until a sour-spot U-Air > DJ Bite drags them back to the ground to do a full combo-string again, which can easily eat up a good 5-10 seconds, perfectly timed for cooking up a 25 +/-second Waft after a chunk of time in neutral, and all so fluently and gracefully. He's fast and ranged with some quirks, but not overly so that any one thing can be centralizing. Impressive, and complex in his simplicity.

Bowser is another brilliant character. His DD Grab/Jab game is hilarious, and it's amazing how a giant character could have similar nuances to a fast character while retaining 'fatty' qualities when designed properly, done so well. Again, he's filled with complexity but it's still fairly simple. Even things like the freedom of JCing his Down-B to WL on a platform is a tiny factor that plays a big role, or jumping out of it into an Aerial Down-B can be a stock on such a simple maneuver. Even such a simple tool has every dynamic from technical and mental applications, and all of his neutral game mixes are interesting and non-linear. Having a Bowser simply DASH at me would be frightening enough to make me want to act, given how many options he has at all times.

Mewtwo is good, I haven't seen any Mewtwo from others in PM outside of a single Apex match with M2K, and that was basically Melee with better hit-boxes. This character has what it takes to do anything, including touch-of-death literally any character off a given hit, not just space animals/etc. The flashy tricks are his BnB, which is great. Finishing HC U-Air combos with Down-B (even turn-around Down-B if using the reverse U-Air hit-boxes) is almost too easy efficiency-wise for something that looks so good. His presence is really unique on-stage in general too, outside the flashy punishes and pokes. Mewtwo just standing there is a weird position that can be all he needs to do to break the neutral game and get a HC U-Air or Down-B or TP F/B/N-Air approach or WD Jab/Tilt approach or Shadow Ball or Grab/Side-B. The character is so weird, and I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes one of the Stale-Mate kings of the game.

On a commentary-note, it wasn't the tournament everyone talked about on the last page, but the worst commentary I've heard for PM was on a Denti vs M2K match. I think it might have been Oracle and someone, not sure.
It was funny, but not in a humor-on-purpose kind of way... if you know what I mean...
*Commentary practice matches would do the community some good maybe. LOL

I find some of the most recent posts funny, (actually kind of common throughout these 'Tier' discussions) in the way I've consistently been moving Wario, Pit, ZSS, Sonic, Pika, Wolf, (even very briefly for the super-new characters too) etc, DOWN spots almost every patch update of PM, where everyone else is moving them UP. XD
Talking about things is funny.

 

[SpiderMad]

I have a hypothesis that DDD is the character that is most often left out of tier lists. Not sure what it means, but it certainly seems to be the case.

Probably not a hypothesis, you guys proved it like dozens of times now

Also I don't agree with my tier list I made like a week ago which I knew I would, everyone rocks except maybe Jigglypuff (and Olimar gets rocked by Fox and possibly others but other than that, and also Bowser is kinda iffy). I like making ones for the guy(s) who eventually total them all to get the average which are people gonna do still? What happened to Overswarm?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
http://affordanything.com/2012/01/20/collective-wisdom-and-housing-bubbles/
"Surowiecki studies situations (such as rational bubbles) in which the crowd produces very bad judgment, and argues that in these types of situations their cognition or cooperation failed because (in one way or another) the members of the crowd were too conscious of the opinions of others and began to emulate each other and conform rather than think differently.."

When anyone values other's opinions of tiers into their own, it probably scues what would be more accurate. People putting Squirtle and Pikachu as top tier in some kind of another tier list poll, are probably making the collective guess better off for people valuing them too low and such. When's the thread/polls for making a collective MU chart gonna start?