GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Which is where I stand. I wouldn't put him on a tier list (wouldn't have a damn clue where to), but I have no interest in playing him at all.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
ROB still had good recovery and aerials in Brawl with his old Up B. Airdash is clearly a huge improvement, but even without it I think he'd still be at least somewhat viable.
I don't really see him as that boring. Lame, campy Olimar is boring, but you can't really play him that way anymore (at least, not against characters who aren't Bowser / Ganon). Getting in there and mixing it up with him is as entertaining as with most other basic characters.
I'm still not convinced his metagame has much room to develop, he seems to mostly just have basic stuff / very situational things (loads of characters can do cool stuff if they have specific stage setup when they grab you, but if you see them going for the setup you know to watch for the grab). I suppose we'll see. I don't think they plan to make any drastic changes to the game any time soon, so we've got a few months to see how Olimar does at tournaments.
JOE!
Smash Hero
I never said Olimar was "bad", just not as good.
The way I see it, he does have a lot of strengths given the right set-up. However, due to how his "ammo" is randomized, and how he has to get rid of it (crippling his recovery / game in general) to re-stock, I perceive that he cannot be as consistently "amazing" as some cases point out. Essentially the fact that he has to manage pikmin to get a certain kind per match-up gives him a slight disadvantage from the get-go if he doesn't get the right kinds off the bat. Like, if he really needed Blues for a match-up but he started with 2 reds, a yellow then plucked another yellow.
It's not that he is bad. He is probably better off than some characters given time. It's just that the randomization combined with having to take time getting rid of Pikmin to re-pluck (which in turn makes you worse) makes me feel like he won't be "great" compared to characters who can just run in and fight.
The way I see it, he does have a lot of strengths given the right set-up. However, due to how his "ammo" is randomized, and how he has to get rid of it (crippling his recovery / game in general) to re-stock, I perceive that he cannot be as consistently "amazing" as some cases point out. Essentially the fact that he has to manage pikmin to get a certain kind per match-up gives him a slight disadvantage from the get-go if he doesn't get the right kinds off the bat. Like, if he really needed Blues for a match-up but he started with 2 reds, a yellow then plucked another yellow.
It's not that he is bad. He is probably better off than some characters given time. It's just that the randomization combined with having to take time getting rid of Pikmin to re-pluck (which in turn makes you worse) makes me feel like he won't be "great" compared to characters who can just run in and fight.
Kokomaniac
Smash Journeyman
Is there a matchup spread being made or already made? That's a lot more helpful than a tier list imo anyway
JOE!
Smash Hero
I think there was a guy trying to do one a while ago, but it seems like it'd be something done in the character forums then collected?
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Pikachu's already fallen prey to such balancing attempts (a.k.a. free recovery in PM).
I dont think its worth pretending that every character can be viable. Viability is relative to the rest of the cast, and if its not clear now when the dust settles it will eventually be clear that several characters will be terrible compared to fox or whoever else settles at top tier. It is what it is. Promoting the notion that everyone should be viable, you end up with a community frequently asking for nerfs and buffs to achieve what theyve been told they can have.
If being "dynamic" is the goal, then doesn't that favour the "every character should have something broken about them" school of design? There's no question in my mind that characters like Lucas and Ivysaur are more dynamic than Olimar.
That being said, I'm not convinced that that really is what P:M aims to achieve. Brawl- is all about the game just being totally bonkers, but it's fairly clear balance is at least a pretty significant goal for P:M.
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NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Lol. That was actually misquoted. I have said that Fox is easy compared to Lucas, but Fox is still fairly difficult to play at a high level.
Also, @Hylian, I agree that a lot of people overrate Lucas. I obviously think he's really good, but he has some troublesome matchups and a very undeveloped metagame that has yet to provide evidence that he's as good as people seem to think. My opinion of him is mostly based on my theorycrafting, and the rate that my Lucas has been improving, both of which make me think that he still has a lot of untapped potential that should allow him to compete with established top tier characters sometime in the future. But basically every Lucas I've seen so far (including myself) is not really that good yet. There's so much optimization that needs to be done in terms of Lucas's neutral and punishment games before there will be any matches that demonstrate Lucas's ability to compete at a top level, especially because the top melee players don't really have experience against Lucas and can lose to tricks that they could counter if they knew the matchup better. So right now, not only are they no good Lucas players, there also isn't anyone who would know how to fight against a good Lucas, meaning that a lot of fraudulent Lucas tactics are still used because they tend to work even though they shouldn't. I think that he has better stuff that will be adopted by more people overtime, particularly as more people learn to fight against Lucas and Lucas players have to develop a more solid style to remain competitive. But none of this stuff has happened yet, so I can see why you would think Lucas is overrated.
Phyvo
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2007
- Messages
- 289
I agree that the frequency of nerf/buff requests depends on what expectations the developers set for the community, but I think that how you go about balance changes makes a big difference. You can be like league of legends in the early days with its ridiculous 2 week patch cycles and set that swift nerfbat expectations from the get-go. Or you can take a more conservative approach and force competitors to explore the game in as many metas as possible before you change anything, in which case people may still have opinions but they'll know they have to live with them for awhile. I don't think balance changes are in vain either. IMO it's possible to make the worst character in PM not as bad as Pichu relative to the top tiers and that kind of tier squishing, to a certain extent, promotes diversity, complexity, and is beneficial.
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Ali Baba 177
Smash Journeyman
Lucario does have potential as most people can agree upon, because of his OHC system. Why do you think this is broken? It did seem broken to me at first,but it doesnt seem to show in tournament results nor in my play against friends,
It seems that it pushes lucario into quick decision making situations where if you mess up you will automatically get punished because its all about being close and personal. I think this just means a steeper learning curve, so lucario will probably shine in the future when his meta is more developed.
The_NZA
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2007
- Messages
- 1,979
Also, if it hasn't been stated enough, the Melee top 8 got by on being "broken" and partially why PM's design philosophy follows that is because it starts from the theorem that the game will be best designed by balancing around the melee 8.
Marth's disjoints- relatively broken. Falco's laser pressure, shine and dair? - relatively broken. Peach's dsmash and Float cancelling? - relatively broken. Falcon's combo to Knee? Relatively broken. Fox's fox stuff? Relatively broken. Ice Climbers second chick who grabs and stuff? Relatively broken. Shiek's dthrow and ftilt to fair? Relatively broken.
The only fair characters in that game are basically Doc mario and Pikachu. There's a reason why they sit on the periphery of barely viable.
XXXX1000
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 96
don't forget about aMSa and his dinosaur friend
Bleck
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
- Messages
- 3,133
I think it bears repeating that there's a difference between something being overpowered and something being broken: when something is overpowered, it can mechanically be tuned down, but something broken is something that, contrary to the etymological source of the term, just can't really be fixed. It's inherently incapable of being balanced.
For example, I believe that Falco's laser pressure is an overpowered mechanic; the speed, range, and strength of the lasers can be changed, presumably to a degree where they're no longer as problematic. Contrast this with his shine; a move that provides instantaneous safety from ranged attacks, has a hitbox that comes out fast enough to counter any melee attacks, leads perfectly into the character's other attacks and/or combos and can be canceled immediately and effortlessly? As the reflector, the move can be balanced, but as the shine, it's broken.
For example, I believe that Falco's laser pressure is an overpowered mechanic; the speed, range, and strength of the lasers can be changed, presumably to a degree where they're no longer as problematic. Contrast this with his shine; a move that provides instantaneous safety from ranged attacks, has a hitbox that comes out fast enough to counter any melee attacks, leads perfectly into the character's other attacks and/or combos and can be canceled immediately and effortlessly? As the reflector, the move can be balanced, but as the shine, it's broken.
XXXX1000
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 96
that's kind of just semantics, though, because they could give the shine 10 frames of startup and then it wouldn't be able to do many of those things, and then it wouldn't be broken, you might call it simply overpowered, or might call it decent or even bad. With enough changes, any character or move can be taken from the best in the game to the worst in the game and back again. Some people call things "overpowered", some say "broken", some say "stupid", it's really all the same, or at least people mean the same thing when they say that kind of thing.
The problem lies when people start throwing those words at characters/mechanics they don't like without actually thinking about it. Fox's usmash is one of the strongest in the game: does that make it overpowered? Someone's usmash has to be the strongest in the game. But looking at Fox, he has tons of other tools in his arsenal that compliment the usmash - are those tools overpowered, or is it the usmash? What if Fox is the right kind of power, and everyone else is underpowered? "overpowered" and "underpowered" imply that things are not the way they SHOULD be, which is very different from being the "best", and tier list discussion should not be about balance changes, or what is "overpowered", it should be about what is the "best".
The problem lies when people start throwing those words at characters/mechanics they don't like without actually thinking about it. Fox's usmash is one of the strongest in the game: does that make it overpowered? Someone's usmash has to be the strongest in the game. But looking at Fox, he has tons of other tools in his arsenal that compliment the usmash - are those tools overpowered, or is it the usmash? What if Fox is the right kind of power, and everyone else is underpowered? "overpowered" and "underpowered" imply that things are not the way they SHOULD be, which is very different from being the "best", and tier list discussion should not be about balance changes, or what is "overpowered", it should be about what is the "best".
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Does aMSa play PM Yoshi? I saw him on this thread the other day.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Lucas is p good, like Neon said we just need REALLY SOLID Lucas play. /shrug
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RayMyFurio
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
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- 24
Lol i get what youre going for with that argument but doc and pikachu also have their fair share of "broken" stuff. But like you said earlier "broken" stuff only gives more personality and depth to the game. People like Oracle are bad for the game as they like to keep characters ****ty so that they can have some kind of moral high groundand fuel their e-egos. "You only beat me because youre using fox" "olimars not bad let me show you guys how a real olimar works" Its like these kinds of people try to make the game as boring as possible.
MLGF
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2013
- Messages
- 1,922
Broken vs OP? Easy
OP means a move is really good and is a frequently used tool for a character that does a much for the characters metagame.
Broken is something that centralizes the character's metagame and perhaps the entire metagame itself.
OP means a move is really good and is a frequently used tool for a character that does a much for the characters metagame.
Broken is something that centralizes the character's metagame and perhaps the entire metagame itself.
MoonlapseOpethian
Smash Journeyman
I agree. He definitely belongs in the top five. Pink Fresh is godlike with Lucas.
I just started maining him, not going so well.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Big time shots fired there. I'd be careful if I were you, as Oracle has explicitly said he attributes his recent success to dropping the defeatist attitude. What he's trying to say is the metagame for most, if not all, Brawl newcomers is underdeveloped, so characters that may seem unviable may in fact be dangerous.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
What Nguz said, pretty sure Oracle is actually good at the game and doesn't need some stupid bull**** low tier egotism. That's a seriously lame jab.
Oracle
Smash Master
Yeah if id gone fox id beat armada I hav tr00 sk1ll 1v1 me with fair characters kido0 come @ me m8
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Fox for fair-tier pls.
Kaeldiar
Smash Ace
I don't think that everyone would agree with your word choice of "broken," but there is a lot of truth in what you have here. Everyone that is in the top tier has something very powerful that others do not, or have to a lesser degree. Every. Single. One of. Marth's. Hitboxes. So much disjoint. Disjointed hitboxes are a very strong characteristic, and nobody does it like Marth. The same goes for other characters. There is something about them that stands out and places them in the top tier.
Truthfully, I called Lucas out as the next spacie after the lvl 9 ripped me to shreds with him. I saw that he had the ridiculous speed to apply serious pressure. Guys like Pink Fresh and even you, Yars (nice work at Xanadu), are developing his metagame. It'll just take some time for people to really turn him into the demigod he is.
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
I like how anyone who plays a character at Xanadu is automatically 'developing their metagame'.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Xanadu is dabes.
Seriously though, they have taken the time and effort to get a really devoted fanbase. In fact, I'd say they are the most famous weekly PM stream on Twitch right now. They may not always have the strongest players, but they know how to put on a show, and the people that do go are in fact just as devoted to PM as anyone in the stronger regions. They really have something special going on, and I'm grateful I have the chance to be a part of it.
Seriously though, they have taken the time and effort to get a really devoted fanbase. In fact, I'd say they are the most famous weekly PM stream on Twitch right now. They may not always have the strongest players, but they know how to put on a show, and the people that do go are in fact just as devoted to PM as anyone in the stronger regions. They really have something special going on, and I'm grateful I have the chance to be a part of it.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Neon you use a phantom hand, no cheating
EDIT: And where are all the players developing Samus? I'm starting to get worried >.>
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SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Xanadu puts on a quality stream for sure, largely in part due to GiMR's amazing work with VGBC. I'm just saying that a lot of people seem to make the mistake of assuming from their high viewership that they represent the 'forefront of the meta' or whatever, which is simply not the case.
Nazo
Smash Journeyman
imo, Neon has developed Lucas' metagame the furthest and most efficiently.
Metazoa
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2013
- Messages
- 48
No good authority for developing Samus has appeared. Maybe we should get her a PM Adam.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Pink's coming for you Neon. Keep up the amazing work though, I love it.
Oracle
Smash Master
I want to see pink fresh and neon play just bc of how drastically differently they approach lucas
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Lol. I can tell he's trying, and I saw him using the thrst tag at his last tournament. I think that besides myself, he's probably improved the most out of all the Lucas players over the last month, but he still has a lot of stuff to work on (mostly tech skill, and using aerial magnet more/better). The people at Xanadu just don't know how to fight Lucas, and I think the skill level at Xanadu is somewhat overrated. A lot of AZ biweeklies end up being way more stacked because we have a bunch of top melee players show up, plus people who have a lot of specialized PM experience like me and K9.
Also, there are some recorded games between me and Pink Fresh, but they were all friendlies where I was mostly trying to show him stuff. The games might still be pretty good though, I don't really remember. I just yelled in caps lock at the person who has them, so maybe they will be uploaded soon, along with my games against Oracle.
Edit, I'm just going to leave this here as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkoteOoW1AM&t=6m08s
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woundedust
Smash Apprentice
Anyone playing any character could be considered developing a character. Finding janky little stuff, etc.
RayMyFurio
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Feb 20, 2014
- Messages
- 24
I want to see myself MM Oracle in pm just bc of how big of a fraud Oracle is at smash bros
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
1v1 me in the wildy scrub lmfao LOL fraud
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Every week someone new shows up... Let me guess, you'll bop him with Mario?